To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
This is just an ignorant assumption to make.
So people who like to role play or use their imagination in any way have something wrong with them? It's an escape from the drudges of everyday life for some people...for others...yes, that role play aspect they enjoy. I am not really a role player...I have participated a tiny bit in EQ at one point...but was never ever heavy into it. Was just a nice twist on things sometimes, but I don't hate those who do it a lot. They just have a different way of enjoying the game from the way I do. Is it wrong? No. Does that mean I think they have mental issues? Not by a long shot.
Could just as easily turn that around and the players that like that sort of thing could think there is something wrong with you if you (Not saying you do, but as an example) like to race through content to get all the "1sts" on the server and have leet status. Or bounce from MMORPG to MMORPG on a whim. Although some may be thinking it...I don't see them post it. Just makes you look like a twit.
Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion".
I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general.
Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's.
I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa.
So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?
This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.
Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?
It's like this: you view MMORPGs the same way you view Super Mario Bros -- just a a bunch of points and achievements without any continuity necessary -- the goal is to "win." Going to a random dungeon on the other side of the planet makes perfect sense to you, and no explanation is necessary, as long as the leaderboard marker moves up the scale.
Others view MMORPGs more like group storytelling or novels where continuity is key, and context matters. They are not playing to "win" but to experience a story, much like a novel, but with the added bonus of doing group story with other players.
The people who REALLY don't understand this are the ones who say, "well, why not just go read a novel and forget about games?" These are the players who have never tried a tabletop roleplaying game, and cannot understand why anyone would.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?
Yes. It's a playstyle just like being competitive is a play style. When I read a fantasy or sci-fi novel I don't count the number of letters in each word or how many words I read per minute to score my reading. That would defeate the purpose: immersion. When I watch a fantasy or sci-fi movie I don't simultaneously discuss the cinematography or the political views of the director or the real lives of the actors. Some people do and that's cool but I have no interest in that while I'm actually watching the movie. I want to be immersed in the story. MMORPG's are the same for me.
Immersion is one of those things that people will never agree upon.
To me, there are two sides to the immersion coin. On the one side, there's moment-to-moment immersion. This is the illusion that the things you're doing have immediate and real consequences. For example, it's important that I don't aggro this ogre. It's important that I don't fall off this ledge. It's important that I interrupt this mage's spell. It's important that I keep this ranger healed. None of these things are actually important. It's a game. There's no real life consequence to failing to do any of these things. It's not unlike watching an action movie. You can feel thrilled that the hero character on the screen is in mortal danger and just barely managing to dodge bullets and stay alive, but there's no actual consequence to what's happening because it's a made-up story. Immediate immersion is dependent upon clear visual and audio feedback and responsive controls, and can be reinforced (or broken) by the game's mechanics. The game need not be difficult but must draw a clear line between your actions and the outcome. Unresponsive controls, lag, lagged sound, or inconsistent AI can ruin this.
The other side of the coin is lasting immersion. This is the illusion that the things you're doing have lasting real consequences, that your avatar and his or her universe matters. For example, it's important to get the last piece of this armor set, to get some furniture for my house, to finish this quest line. It's important to sell this rare drop for a good price and make a lot of money. As above, none of these things are actually important and have no real life consequence. I don't have a strong idea of what features of a game improve its lasting immersion. I can point to some games I've played and say "I don't care what happens in this world. It's obviously a game and there is no consequence." I can uninstall a game like that without caring. There are others that I feel bad about leaving, even if I no longer enjoy playing the game, because the idea's been implanted that it's important to keep doing things in that game. This second form of immersion is a little more important to me than the first kind, but there's also no perfect formula for pulling it off.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world. Those people are pathetic losers.
Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules. The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound. You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.
Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing. I make it easy and just never use any of them. It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world. Those people are pathetic losers.
Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules. The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound. You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.
Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing. I make it easy and just never use any of them. It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.
It great to have such young minds around...
A community of players is what roleplaying is. If there is no community, then there is no point in playing within those games. Oddly, people who play MMORPG's games for entertainment are funny... they could be jogging, or watching TV...
Why play a video game, unless You are going to chellenge yourself... (IE like a puzzle..?) Or, if you are 100% into entertainment, then why play a MMORPG, and just not an arcade game..? People whom play roleplaying games all day long, like an arcade game are odd.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
First person view is one of the game mechanics that adds a tremendous amount of immersion for me. As does any mechanic or content that is consistent with its own theme and plays more like a simulation and less like an arcade game. A friendly community also factors into the overall picture. I call it world immersion as it is a distinct feeling from say game immersion where if the premise of the game is fun, then I enjoy it and stick around. World immersion is what I seek in an MMORPG. World immersion is not something I have yet to find in a MMOFPS or MMOARPG or MMORTS, mainly because too much focus is on the combat or the arcade effect as it were.
I'm not sure what happened, but somehow casual game play became equated to arcade style game play. Everquest was too hardcore for my tastes, but all they needed to do was make a game similar to it that was less time consuming and job-like and I would have been happy. Instead everything has become about action this and action that, with very little focus on world building or adding quests that are actually the definition of the word or allowing multiple paths of progression so you can level the way you want. Themeparks didn't start off on rails, yet that is what they have evolved into and I find it sad and disappointing.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world. Those people are pathetic losers.
Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules. The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound. You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.
Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing. I make it easy and just never use any of them. It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.
Every piece of any game has to do with immersion. Gameplay mechanics, physics, art, sound... everything is part of immersion. Even sports games like Madden or FPS games like Counterstrike. People arguing that immersion is unimportant really gives me a good laugh. When immersion is good, you shouldn't even notice it!
If they took the stadium noises out of Madden, you would notice.
If a headshot in Counterstrike didn't kill someone, you would notice.
If a baskets in NBA2K13 counted for 7 points each, you would notice.
Every single scenario above could break immersion from a game. The simple fact that you think "this is stupid" is breaking your immersion from the game because you are no longer thinking about the game, but of the rules (or lack therof) governing the game.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
A community of players is what roleplaying is. If there is no community, then there is no point in playing within those games. Oddly, people who play MMORPG's games for entertainment are funny... they could be jogging, or watching TV...
As someone who started playing roleplaying games in 1974 with Chainmail, the predecessor to original D&D, I'd say you're wrong. Compare what goes on in a good PnP RPG around a table and compare it to what happens in an MMO. There simply is no comparison.
And yes, those people could be doing just about anything, it's a good thing that they picked playing MMOs because they represent the majority of the MMO market. If they all decided to go do something else, the entire MMO marketplace would implode and you'd be left with nothing to play.
Why play a video game, unless You are going to chellenge yourself... (IE like a puzzle..?) Or, if you are 100% into entertainment, then why play a MMORPG, and just not an arcade game..? People whom play roleplaying games all day long, like an arcade game are odd.
Because they choose to play an MMO? What business is it of yours how people choose to spend their time and money? In case you haven't noticed, there are tons of games out there that are totally non-competitive that attract millions of players. These are ENTERTAINMENT products! They are not places to wave your e-peen around.
Maybe this is the same old thread, just written differently but I know a lot of you old timers on here love to talk how certain features in a game "break your immersion".
I've in the past have been in beta's and lobbied for group finder tools if they weren't present, flying mounts, instant teleports to dungeons etc etc the tools that make the game possibly more accessible, and weren't wasting your time in general.
Now I've been playing MMO's since pre cu swg. I played WoW before all the tools were available, and I embraced all the tools I've mentioned plus alot more that had come into existence in WoW and other mmo's.
I guess where I question people is at the point where I hear the argument that these break "immersion". I get how these things can be Anti social, but let's be serious with every supposed anti social tool you guys think exist, in any real triple AAA mmo that falls on each individual itself as to whether they want to be social or not. People have a wide variety of experiences with those tools like LFG tools and found plenty of people to be social using them, and vice versa.
So when I hear Immersion breaking as an argument I'm left confused. Are these individuals pretending that they are their own actual characters they see on screen and want to be "immersed" in this feeling of being in this great giant world fighting these evil beast as this mighty conquering hero?
This is a serious question I've wondered, when I've gamed I don't do any of this imagining. Granted this whole thing might just be predicated on each indivuals playstyle.I'm mostly competitive and the type of person who likes to be on the top so I play a game to play a game. Not to feel like I myself am in this pretend virtual world. On top of that in a mmo, there is thousands of other supposed "heroes" running around killing the same mobs as you are. I just have a very hard time seeing it.
Either way I'm curious to understand this side of the argument and or if I am possibly way off base and nobody does this? Either way, thoughts?
It's like this: you view MMORPGs the same way you view Super Mario Bros -- just a a bunch of points and achievements without any continuity necessary -- the goal is to "win." Going to a random dungeon on the other side of the planet makes perfect sense to you, and no explanation is necessary, as long as the leaderboard marker moves up the scale.
Others view MMORPGs more like group storytelling or novels where continuity is key, and context matters. They are not playing to "win" but to experience a story, much like a novel, but with the added bonus of doing group story with other players.
The people who REALLY don't understand this are the ones who say, "well, why not just go read a novel and forget about games?" These are the players who have never tried a tabletop roleplaying game, and cannot understand why anyone would.
this is probably the best explaination to date of imersion. i like imersive games where u lose track of time because you are that into the game either via the story/crafting or basically whatever rocks your boat.
I think everyones gonna have somewhat of a different view of what immersion means for them for me its what makes me zone out on the game for hours on end without realizing 5-6 hours have passed. Its good gameplay things that keep your attention from one minute to the next. I can't really recall too many mmo's that sucked me in and kept me zoned out like when I would play Orcarina of Time or One of the old Castlevania games. Theres numerous things that can draw your attention in a game but its what keeps your attention that makes its a great game and keeps you playing it.
Dungeon findering is totally an immersion breaker.
/1 to ask for a dungeon across the whole server is where immersion is at.
- Yours Truly,
Old Schooler
LOL .. right on.
Plus, if one cares so much about how LFD is immersion breaking, don't use it. It is not like the dungeon cannot be walked to. It is not like you cannot try to get a group by talking to people in a city.
The fact that most people use it shows that they don't care about this "immersion breaking" thing much.
A community of players is what roleplaying is. If there is no community, then there is no point in playing within those games. Oddly, people who play MMORPG's games for entertainment are funny... they could be jogging, or watching TV...
As someone who started playing roleplaying games in 1974 with Chainmail, the predecessor to original D&D, I'd say you're wrong. Compare what goes on in a good PnP RPG around a table and compare it to what happens in an MMO. There simply is no comparison.
And yes, those people could be doing just about anything, it's a good thing that they picked playing MMOs because they represent the majority of the MMO market. If they all decided to go do something else, the entire MMO marketplace would implode and you'd be left with nothing to play.
Why play a video game, unless You are going to chellenge yourself... (IE like a puzzle..?) Or, if you are 100% into entertainment, then why play a MMORPG, and just not an arcade game..? People whom play roleplaying games all day long, like an arcade game are odd.
Because they choose to play an MMO? What business is it of yours how people choose to spend their time and money? In case you haven't noticed, there are tons of games out there that are totally non-competitive that attract millions of players. These are ENTERTAINMENT products! They are not places to wave your e-peen around.
FIrst off, I don't speak about MMOs... I am here @ MMORPG... to talk about MMORPGs. The fact you cannot sperate them means you lost sight of the difference. (MMO's are arcade MMORPG are not.) That said... I don't care how people choose to spend their money... I just don't care if it on MMO's... only if they spend their money on MMORPG's and are enthusiast of mmorpgs & we discuss those.
Nobody here cares wether-or-not someone plays MMO arcade games... why, or what.. do those games have to do with MMORPG.com..? Most don't play to be entertained, they play for the adventure, comraderie & challenge.
BTW.. I've been doing roleplaying since the 70's too, dude. I was a kid, running around Ann Arbor's campus as a Hobbit with older uncle. Not to mention when D&D (And AD&D) came to fruition. We still once a year get together and play D&D...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
Dungeon findering is totally an immersion breaker.
/1 to ask for a dungeon across the whole server is where immersion is at.
- Yours Truly,
Old Schooler
LOL .. right on.
Plus, if one cares so much about how LFD is immersion breaking, don't use it. It is not like the dungeon cannot be walked to. It is not like you cannot try to get a group by talking to people in a city.
The fact that most people use it shows that they don't care about this "immersion breaking" thing much.
Exactly^^ (lol)
Never read a book, never enjoy a book... just get the cliff notes, right?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
To get immersion you have to start with an open world, these new MMO ribbon worlds feel artificial from the start of your game journey. Everything else that goes with an open world makes for an immesive MMO, not a MMO that feels like you are in toyland.
I think players are asking too much though if they think their immersion should never be disturbed. The needs of gameplay do not always synch with immersion.
I my most MEMORABLE moment of IMMERSION in game for first time was when in 2002 when Elder Scroll III: Morrowind was released and i stepped into world for first time man this game gave me real feel of immersion such a huge open world to roam freely and explore that was just AWESOME.
Immersion is what happens to me when I watch "Game of Thrones". It's what made me come back for a second season, and what happened to me the moment that first episode of the second season began.
I know that the world in which that tv show takes place is not real, but the people in charge of bringing it to me on a weekly basis work really hard to make that not matter. In fact, as brutal as it can sometimes be, they actually make it comperable or even preferable to the world in which I really live.
That is immersion (without reading anything from the rest of the string yet).
Everquest can be immersive if you catch it right. The depth of some of those questlines can really pull you in. The moment you run into someone else though, shortcutting things and running cookie cutter patterns through the game, the feeling goes away.
To put it bluntly, immersion is like that elusive feeling you get when you meet a new love interest. For a while there no one knows about each other and so every single thing that happens or anything either of you do is special and new. At that time, you can't think of anything better. 4 years later though you're like "How in the world did we get from there to here?" and you are wondering why you keep coming home after work.
In other words immersion is something that I think all games are capable of having in the beginning but that few are capable of sustaining over any period of time.
Ok, after reading the OP's post and understanding exactly what the question is I can only say that people play these games for different reasons.
For me (an old timer) I never thought, as a kid, that there would ever actually be a game in which I would be able to play out certain fantasies that, right up until the first MMO game out, I only pictured in my head as a result of reading books.
For this kind of player it is easy to get involved in the life of a character. And yes, we do exactly that thing that you explain as though it is something completely foreign to your way of thinking and pretend that the character on the screen is actually our representation of ourselves in the world in which we are playing.
If it helps, to think about just sitting down in front of such a time consuming piece of software with no reason for doing so, no option to make money from it, no payback on my investment, and to play it only for the sake of "winning" is just as foreign to me as my way of playing the game is to you.
See, after you play a couple of these things you realize that there really is no such thing as "winning" one. Actually, you really only have to play and walk away from one of them to figure it out. You play and play and play, and put all of this time into working through what the developers put out there for you......"and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you've missed the starting gun." (Pink Floyd) and all of a sudden you're like "what in the world did I just do?
There's no trade in.
If you manage to sell that character you will not get enough to last you a month more or less the time that you put into building it.
You realize that the only thing that you really have to show for it are your memories of building it. And if those memories are only of grind, grind, grind, in silence, no friends, no good times, no enjoyment, just a big old competition that you were only winning while you kept playing and that you began to fall behind in the moment that you stopped playing.
Well....it can get a little disheartening. You might not even want to ever play a game like that again.
But if you enjoyed yourself, well that's something completely different!
A couple of years ago my wife and I decided that our MMO memories were just as valid as any other memories we'd ever have. We went places, we did things, we met people, and we had fun. Not much different than any vacation we'd ever took, or any job we'd ever had. Sure, we wasted a hell of a lot of time, but at the time, we had it to waste. And while a lot of our other friends were just going through the daily grind we were getting to enjoy each others time in ways that we had never imagined we could growing up.
That's immersion. When you can remember taking your wife on a date out in Lake Talos in the COH game and swimming under a waterfall with her and a couple of your closest superhero friends, and she remembers it too.
That's winning to some of us old timers. That stuff that you youngins do, that's what I do during my day job in order to pay for being able to do this stuff at night or on the weekends.
To some people immersion doesn't really exist. What they have could be better described as the ability to be pleasantly temporarily distracted. Immersion is a tough benchmark to hit, and MMOs are ill-equipped to make the attempt.
I'm entirely happy with pleasant temporary distractions though, I don't want to pretend that the game world is real, it's just a game, it's something I do for fun in my spare time. Games are not supposed to make you pretend you're living a secondary, separate life. People who do that have something wrong with them.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world. Those people are pathetic losers.
Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules. The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound. You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.
Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing. I make it easy and just never use any of them. It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.
Always amazes me how you and certain others on these forums never get warned or band for ignorant blanket statements such as this downing people. Yet...I get them for pointing it out.
Anyways, you, and several others either completely don't understand, or are just selfish and don't care what others like or want. But LOVE to cloak it under the guise "It's what the people want", etc. I imagine it is the latter. Must be young and never came up with MMORPG's like UO, EQ, DOAC....or are older and just want a style you have the time to play so campaign for what we have now and is why you like them. Still want to hold onto them, but can't make the time to play them as they were initially intended?
I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.
MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.
I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.
MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.
I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.
Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P
Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.
MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.
I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.
Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P
Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.
UO had some of the greatest convenience features as well as that old school "never ending adventure" vibe.
UO circa 2000-2002 or so really, really was the absolute perfection of the MMO genre.
At least in terms of system design... graphics and combat mechanics were a bit behind the times.
It's both sad and funny that when people try to revive that style of gameplay, they always seem to miss the biggest and most significant change that catapulted the game's popularity and critical appeal - choice.
Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing to ever happen to UO.
Adding races/classes completely ruined it. Thanks EA!
I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.
Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.
This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?
Comments
LOL...yea that was pretty bad.
I like your avatar pic. That will always be my all time favorite quest line.
This is just an ignorant assumption to make.
So people who like to role play or use their imagination in any way have something wrong with them? It's an escape from the drudges of everyday life for some people...for others...yes, that role play aspect they enjoy. I am not really a role player...I have participated a tiny bit in EQ at one point...but was never ever heavy into it. Was just a nice twist on things sometimes, but I don't hate those who do it a lot. They just have a different way of enjoying the game from the way I do. Is it wrong? No. Does that mean I think they have mental issues? Not by a long shot.
Could just as easily turn that around and the players that like that sort of thing could think there is something wrong with you if you (Not saying you do, but as an example) like to race through content to get all the "1sts" on the server and have leet status. Or bounce from MMORPG to MMORPG on a whim. Although some may be thinking it...I don't see them post it. Just makes you look like a twit.
It's like this: you view MMORPGs the same way you view Super Mario Bros -- just a a bunch of points and achievements without any continuity necessary -- the goal is to "win." Going to a random dungeon on the other side of the planet makes perfect sense to you, and no explanation is necessary, as long as the leaderboard marker moves up the scale.
Others view MMORPGs more like group storytelling or novels where continuity is key, and context matters. They are not playing to "win" but to experience a story, much like a novel, but with the added bonus of doing group story with other players.
The people who REALLY don't understand this are the ones who say, "well, why not just go read a novel and forget about games?" These are the players who have never tried a tabletop roleplaying game, and cannot understand why anyone would.
You are completely missing the point on immersion. Immersion isn't meant to replace real life activities or experiences, it's meant to make the game more enjoyable by not breaking certain "personal rules".
For example, if your character had the ability to do the worm dance animation while floating above ground and fighting all at the same time, you might think "Well, that's stupid. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't make sense to me?".
All of us have a point where a broken "personal rule" will ruin a game for us. Some are more forgiving. Others are more strict. But it has absolutely nothing to do with replacing real life.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Yes. It's a playstyle just like being competitive is a play style. When I read a fantasy or sci-fi novel I don't count the number of letters in each word or how many words I read per minute to score my reading. That would defeate the purpose: immersion. When I watch a fantasy or sci-fi movie I don't simultaneously discuss the cinematography or the political views of the director or the real lives of the actors. Some people do and that's cool but I have no interest in that while I'm actually watching the movie. I want to be immersed in the story. MMORPG's are the same for me.
To me, there are two sides to the immersion coin. On the one side, there's moment-to-moment immersion. This is the illusion that the things you're doing have immediate and real consequences. For example, it's important that I don't aggro this ogre. It's important that I don't fall off this ledge. It's important that I interrupt this mage's spell. It's important that I keep this ranger healed. None of these things are actually important. It's a game. There's no real life consequence to failing to do any of these things. It's not unlike watching an action movie. You can feel thrilled that the hero character on the screen is in mortal danger and just barely managing to dodge bullets and stay alive, but there's no actual consequence to what's happening because it's a made-up story. Immediate immersion is dependent upon clear visual and audio feedback and responsive controls, and can be reinforced (or broken) by the game's mechanics. The game need not be difficult but must draw a clear line between your actions and the outcome. Unresponsive controls, lag, lagged sound, or inconsistent AI can ruin this.
The other side of the coin is lasting immersion. This is the illusion that the things you're doing have lasting real consequences, that your avatar and his or her universe matters. For example, it's important to get the last piece of this armor set, to get some furniture for my house, to finish this quest line. It's important to sell this rare drop for a good price and make a lot of money. As above, none of these things are actually important and have no real life consequence. I don't have a strong idea of what features of a game improve its lasting immersion. I can point to some games I've played and say "I don't care what happens in this world. It's obviously a game and there is no consequence." I can uninstall a game like that without caring. There are others that I feel bad about leaving, even if I no longer enjoy playing the game, because the idea's been implanted that it's important to keep doing things in that game. This second form of immersion is a little more important to me than the first kind, but there's also no perfect formula for pulling it off.
For some people, it *IS* the point of immersion, they want to escape from reality and live in a virtual world. Those people are pathetic losers.
Games, like any other entertainment product, have their own rules. The designers decide what rules apply to their game and so long as they are consistent, I'd argue that the game is fundamentally sound. You might not like the rules they come up with, and of course, you're welcome not to play the game, that's what personal preference is for.
Personally, I hate all of those stupid animations, it makes no sense whatsoever for a medieval character to be disco dancing. I make it easy and just never use any of them. It has nothing to do with immersion, it has to do with the fact that it's stupid.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
It great to have such young minds around...
A community of players is what roleplaying is. If there is no community, then there is no point in playing within those games. Oddly, people who play MMORPG's games for entertainment are funny... they could be jogging, or watching TV...
Why play a video game, unless You are going to chellenge yourself... (IE like a puzzle..?) Or, if you are 100% into entertainment, then why play a MMORPG, and just not an arcade game..? People whom play roleplaying games all day long, like an arcade game are odd.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
First person view is one of the game mechanics that adds a tremendous amount of immersion for me. As does any mechanic or content that is consistent with its own theme and plays more like a simulation and less like an arcade game. A friendly community also factors into the overall picture. I call it world immersion as it is a distinct feeling from say game immersion where if the premise of the game is fun, then I enjoy it and stick around. World immersion is what I seek in an MMORPG. World immersion is not something I have yet to find in a MMOFPS or MMOARPG or MMORTS, mainly because too much focus is on the combat or the arcade effect as it were.
I'm not sure what happened, but somehow casual game play became equated to arcade style game play. Everquest was too hardcore for my tastes, but all they needed to do was make a game similar to it that was less time consuming and job-like and I would have been happy. Instead everything has become about action this and action that, with very little focus on world building or adding quests that are actually the definition of the word or allowing multiple paths of progression so you can level the way you want. Themeparks didn't start off on rails, yet that is what they have evolved into and I find it sad and disappointing.
Every piece of any game has to do with immersion. Gameplay mechanics, physics, art, sound... everything is part of immersion. Even sports games like Madden or FPS games like Counterstrike. People arguing that immersion is unimportant really gives me a good laugh. When immersion is good, you shouldn't even notice it!
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
I'm far older than you, I'm sure.
As someone who started playing roleplaying games in 1974 with Chainmail, the predecessor to original D&D, I'd say you're wrong. Compare what goes on in a good PnP RPG around a table and compare it to what happens in an MMO. There simply is no comparison.
And yes, those people could be doing just about anything, it's a good thing that they picked playing MMOs because they represent the majority of the MMO market. If they all decided to go do something else, the entire MMO marketplace would implode and you'd be left with nothing to play.
Because they choose to play an MMO? What business is it of yours how people choose to spend their time and money? In case you haven't noticed, there are tons of games out there that are totally non-competitive that attract millions of players. These are ENTERTAINMENT products! They are not places to wave your e-peen around.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
this is probably the best explaination to date of imersion. i like imersive games where u lose track of time because you are that into the game either via the story/crafting or basically whatever rocks your boat.
LOL .. right on.
Plus, if one cares so much about how LFD is immersion breaking, don't use it. It is not like the dungeon cannot be walked to. It is not like you cannot try to get a group by talking to people in a city.
The fact that most people use it shows that they don't care about this "immersion breaking" thing much.
FIrst off, I don't speak about MMOs... I am here @ MMORPG... to talk about MMORPGs. The fact you cannot sperate them means you lost sight of the difference. (MMO's are arcade MMORPG are not.) That said... I don't care how people choose to spend their money... I just don't care if it on MMO's... only if they spend their money on MMORPG's and are enthusiast of mmorpgs & we discuss those.
Nobody here cares wether-or-not someone plays MMO arcade games... why, or what.. do those games have to do with MMORPG.com..? Most don't play to be entertained, they play for the adventure, comraderie & challenge.
BTW.. I've been doing roleplaying since the 70's too, dude. I was a kid, running around Ann Arbor's campus as a Hobbit with older uncle. Not to mention when D&D (And AD&D) came to fruition. We still once a year get together and play D&D...
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
Exactly^^ (lol)
Never read a book, never enjoy a book... just get the cliff notes, right?
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
To get immersion you have to start with an open world, these new MMO ribbon worlds feel artificial from the start of your game journey. Everything else that goes with an open world makes for an immesive MMO, not a MMO that feels like you are in toyland.
I think players are asking too much though if they think their immersion should never be disturbed. The needs of gameplay do not always synch with immersion.
Immersion is what happens to me when I watch "Game of Thrones". It's what made me come back for a second season, and what happened to me the moment that first episode of the second season began.
I know that the world in which that tv show takes place is not real, but the people in charge of bringing it to me on a weekly basis work really hard to make that not matter. In fact, as brutal as it can sometimes be, they actually make it comperable or even preferable to the world in which I really live.
That is immersion (without reading anything from the rest of the string yet).
Everquest can be immersive if you catch it right. The depth of some of those questlines can really pull you in. The moment you run into someone else though, shortcutting things and running cookie cutter patterns through the game, the feeling goes away.
To put it bluntly, immersion is like that elusive feeling you get when you meet a new love interest. For a while there no one knows about each other and so every single thing that happens or anything either of you do is special and new. At that time, you can't think of anything better. 4 years later though you're like "How in the world did we get from there to here?" and you are wondering why you keep coming home after work.
In other words immersion is something that I think all games are capable of having in the beginning but that few are capable of sustaining over any period of time.
Ok, after reading the OP's post and understanding exactly what the question is I can only say that people play these games for different reasons.
For me (an old timer) I never thought, as a kid, that there would ever actually be a game in which I would be able to play out certain fantasies that, right up until the first MMO game out, I only pictured in my head as a result of reading books.
For this kind of player it is easy to get involved in the life of a character. And yes, we do exactly that thing that you explain as though it is something completely foreign to your way of thinking and pretend that the character on the screen is actually our representation of ourselves in the world in which we are playing.
If it helps, to think about just sitting down in front of such a time consuming piece of software with no reason for doing so, no option to make money from it, no payback on my investment, and to play it only for the sake of "winning" is just as foreign to me as my way of playing the game is to you.
See, after you play a couple of these things you realize that there really is no such thing as "winning" one. Actually, you really only have to play and walk away from one of them to figure it out. You play and play and play, and put all of this time into working through what the developers put out there for you......"and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you've missed the starting gun." (Pink Floyd) and all of a sudden you're like "what in the world did I just do?
There's no trade in.
If you manage to sell that character you will not get enough to last you a month more or less the time that you put into building it.
You realize that the only thing that you really have to show for it are your memories of building it. And if those memories are only of grind, grind, grind, in silence, no friends, no good times, no enjoyment, just a big old competition that you were only winning while you kept playing and that you began to fall behind in the moment that you stopped playing.
Well....it can get a little disheartening. You might not even want to ever play a game like that again.
But if you enjoyed yourself, well that's something completely different!
A couple of years ago my wife and I decided that our MMO memories were just as valid as any other memories we'd ever have. We went places, we did things, we met people, and we had fun. Not much different than any vacation we'd ever took, or any job we'd ever had. Sure, we wasted a hell of a lot of time, but at the time, we had it to waste. And while a lot of our other friends were just going through the daily grind we were getting to enjoy each others time in ways that we had never imagined we could growing up.
That's immersion. When you can remember taking your wife on a date out in Lake Talos in the COH game and swimming under a waterfall with her and a couple of your closest superhero friends, and she remembers it too.
That's winning to some of us old timers. That stuff that you youngins do, that's what I do during my day job in order to pay for being able to do this stuff at night or on the weekends.
Always amazes me how you and certain others on these forums never get warned or band for ignorant blanket statements such as this downing people. Yet...I get them for pointing it out.
Anyways, you, and several others either completely don't understand, or are just selfish and don't care what others like or want. But LOVE to cloak it under the guise "It's what the people want", etc. I imagine it is the latter. Must be young and never came up with MMORPG's like UO, EQ, DOAC....or are older and just want a style you have the time to play so campaign for what we have now and is why you like them. Still want to hold onto them, but can't make the time to play them as they were initially intended?
I don't have issue with convenience...but to the degree it has gone in MMORPG's, it's completely rendered them unrecognizeable. They really are just glorifed console games for the PC now.
MMORPG's were never ending adventures. Now they are just rat races to "end game" (Again, a term that never should be in an MMORPG) for the shiney's. MMORPG's are suppose to be abotu the journey, NOT the destination. It's why they are a different type of gaming from console games. Or sadly, were anyways.
I find it highly ironic that the 'convenience' MMOs have a longer history (7+ years) than any of those 'old-school' MMOs.
Who's the 'old man get off my lawn' now? :P
Pretty sure MMOs with 'never ending adventures' are still out there; EVE, AoW.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
UO had some of the greatest convenience features as well as that old school "never ending adventure" vibe.
UO circa 2000-2002 or so really, really was the absolute perfection of the MMO genre.
At least in terms of system design... graphics and combat mechanics were a bit behind the times.
It's both sad and funny that when people try to revive that style of gameplay, they always seem to miss the biggest and most significant change that catapulted the game's popularity and critical appeal - choice.
Trammel / Felucca split was the best thing to ever happen to UO.
Adding races/classes completely ruined it. Thanks EA!
Good. Some console games (like Dishonered) are more fun, to me, than 90% of MMOs.
This is called adapting to the market. They are much better games now. If they don't put in these kind of feautres, how can they compete with games like LoL, WoT and Diablo 3?