I would love to see WoW implement similar system to what Planetside has. In planetside, a level 1 character has only very minimal disadvantage from the highest level character. The higher your toon is, the more weapons u can use - your arsenal increases but your weapons stay the same. That way you are still encouraged to level so you can use a wider range of weapons, but you dont feel underpowered compared to higher level toons.
WoW doesnt have a great system regarding this issue, but its not so bad. WoW still relies a lot on player's personal skill rather then just random chance like EQ (although not to the extend Planetside does, in Planetside, your skills matter about 80-90% of time, while the rest is random chance). I personaly have dueled and won fights with cocky farmers who had realy good gear (compared to mine) but lacked skill. But yes, if u take 2 level 60 chars with same talents, same stats, but different weapons (one is weak, the other is strong) then the player with stronger weapons will win most of the time. This should be fixed so that casual players dont feel underpowered compared to hardcore players but at the same time not letting hardcore players feel that their greater effort has no meaning whatsoever. A system where weapons are essencialy doesnt matter BUT it still gives some sort of advantage (a wider choice of weapons like Planetside for example) would benefit both playstyles I believe.
1 : subject to, resulting from, or occurring by chance 2 a : occurring without regularity : OCCASIONAL b : employed for irregular periods 3 a : feeling or showing little concern : NONCHALANT b (1) : INFORMAL, NATURAL (2) : designed for informal use synonym see ACCIDENTAL, RANDOM - ca·su·al·ly adverb - ca·su·al·ness noun
1 : a central or fundamental and usually enduring group or part: as a : a relatively small enduring core of society marked by apparent resistance to change or inability to escape a persistent wretched condition (as poverty or chronic unemployment) b : a militant or fiercely loyal faction 2 usually hard·core /-"kOr, -"kor/ chiefly British : hard material in pieces (as broken bricks or stone) used as a bottom (as in making roads and in foundations)
#2 fits best for casual definition. Hardocre definition doesnt havea clear connection to gaming playstyle, but I believe key phrases like "persistent condition" or "chronic" fits best this describtion.
1 a : marked by long duration or frequent recurrence : not acute <chronic indigestion> <chronic experiments> b : suffering from a chronic disease <the special needs of chronic patients> 2 a : always present or encountered; especially : constantly vexing, weakening, or troubling <chronic petty warfare> b : being such habitually <a chronic grumbler>
So, as you can see, casual/hardcore IS influenced by time played, and frequency of play. So if someone plays 1-2 hours a day, we can call them casual, and if someone plays 5-10 hours a day, we call them hardcore. Those numbers are just a logical deduction, and not a law of course. I only illustrated this to show my point.
So if someone plays 8 hours a day and he didnt even reach level 20 in 1 month then that player is either a bad hardcore player, or hardcore player who likes the non-combat part of the game, but he is still hardcore IMO
As far as the end game being a grind I definately agree with this, I used to be a majorly hardcore player (playing 6-10 hours a day) however my server then fell apart when a few people decided to create an uber guild that would only allow six of each class to join, this meant that the five major guilds on the server all got ripped apart and the game lost all interest for me. I recently came back to the game after 3-4 months being away to discover that I could still outheal and outplay most of the characters there, and I still had pretty reasonable equipment in comparison to those around me. Even the people who were doing MC/ZG 5 times a week still only had 2-3 epics of their class set. For a casual player even if you can get on once a week for long enough to do a MC or ZG run you have next to no chance of getting any items because not enough drop for the number of people in the raids.
My final real bugbear is about the way loot is now handled in WoW, nearly all guilds capable of doing the end game content now use the DKP system, which basically means that if you are a hardcore player who is available for every raid you will nearly always have the most DKP and will always get all the top items, whereas as a part time player you will never be able to get your score to a high enough level to be in a position to get the best items.
When it comes to blizzard its as simple as this. Blizzard doesnt give a damn about the casual player its evident in a couple of there games. Diablo 2 and WoW.Diablo 2 unless you can commit all the time and patience required to reach the highend game youre not getting squat for loot. And WoW for the reasons explained. One would think that since the casual player pays the same as Hardcore Blizzard would have an obligation to make plenty of content for them as they have for the Hardcores. As everyone can see this is not so the casual players money is not as good as the hardcores and never will be Blizzard doesnt not support or have any desire to support the playing time restraints of the casual player.
Originally posted by Raven99 One would think that since the casual player pays the same as Hardcore Blizzard would have an obligation to make plenty of content for them as they have for the Hardcores. As everyone can see this is not so the casual players money is not as good as the hardcores and never will be Blizzard doesnt not support or have any desire to support the playing time restraints of the casual player.
No offense but you're a communist.
Playing WoW isn't like buying a product - it's like taking a trip to Disney World. What you're saying is that if all the people who visit Disney World don't come home with the exact same set of souveneirs that they got ripped off somehow. It seems to all come down to LOOT with the complainers and the whiners here - and not at all about the experience.
The notion that WoW isn't casual friendly is retarded on it's face - it wouldn't have MILLIONS of subscribers if it wasn't.
Again not everyone will get to kill Onyixia or get a rediculous looking set of those Epic shoulderpads. And lets face it - epic armor looks pretty f*cking doofy in this game (I think it's the Dev's secret way of getting back at the powergamers). But there is PLENTY to DO without ever seeing it all. My guild is made up of 90% casual gamers and there is no end in sight for us at this point.
It's about the content, the storyline, the journey, the experience, the friends you make - NOT THE LOOT.
Playing WoW isn't like buying a product - it's like taking a trip to Disney World. What you're saying is that if all the people who visit Disney World don't come home with the exact same set of souveneirs that they got ripped off somehow. It seems to all come down to LOOT with the complainers and the whiners here - and not at all about the experience.
The notion that WoW isn't casual friendly is retarded on it's face - it wouldn't have MILLIONS of subscribers if it wasn't.
Again not everyone will get to kill Onyixia or get a rediculous looking set of those Epic shoulderpads. And lets face it - epic armor looks pretty f*cking doofy in this game (I think it's the Dev's secret way of getting back at the powergamers). But there is PLENTY to DO without ever seeing it all. My guild is made up of 90% casual gamers and there is no end in sight for us at this point.
It's about the content, the storyline, the journey, the experience, the friends you make - NOT THE LOOT.
COMMIE!
~
You know you must be one of the hardcore players and I would expect such a response from a blizzard fanboy. And the Disney thing has nothing to do with the point i was making because when one pays to go into Disney they dont pay for the all the souveneirs as well other wise Disney would find it quite difficult to keep there shops stocked. And besides if I do go to disney and I want to buy the same stuff as the next guy I can do that I dont have to spend the same amont of time he did there i can just go in and buy the same products and leave. and you do buy and pay for the right to play WoW which makes it a product that Blizzard is selling people. And wacth who you attack for voicing there opnion NAZI Stormgaard
I think WoW is as casual-friendly as it can be. You can solo all the way, and you CAN get purple items if u raid once a week on weekends... Of course the chance is very small but thats how it is supposed to be. You get greater rewards with more time spent, if you dont spend more time, you SHOULDNT be rewarded. Its not fair to reward equialy everyone, regardless of how much time they invest into this game.
Originally posted by anwar As for WoW, the reason this is such a hot topic is that the game was advertised to be casual friendly and, at release, definitly was. What WoW did better than any other game to date was the low and mid levels, almost to level cap. Until players started hitting 60, you heard very little complaining...that first trip to 60 was fun and totally addictive. All the press applauded the game in every aspect....the world, the quests, everything. Then for some reason, almost as if it was a totally different dev team pulled from Battle.net who programmed for themselves, Blizzard went totally for the hardcore player. In pvp they went for a system that rewards the extreme hardcore player...the player that plays WoW above all other endeavors. In PvE they made all advancement dependant on being a mega guild made up of hardcore players who could farm 40 man raid instances demanding huge chunks of time. In battlefields they made it possible to "enter as group", thus those mega guilds rack up easy pvp points by rolling over pick-up groups. .....all this by a game that even has a rested bonus to experience to slow down the hardcore so the casual and normal players could keep up somewhat...but is of course useless once most are at level cap. It's simply a case of intentions being forgotten by devs in favor of what devs enjoy....after all the devs were once the mega-guild and raid leaders who got a dream job....when they play for fun , they are playing with their friends in mega guilds, deep down they actually have little respect for normal players...they really think normal and casual players should be happy with the early game and program the end game to be what the devs and their friends enjoy.
/agree it's just devs being human....they program what they enjoy.
ok power players gold farmers uber guilds ..small guild casual players ..it's all the same .
been playng wow for 9 months now and whats has happened ,,well the game is flat now ..i'm level 60 rogue been doing some instances ..always raid ,,it's hard to get 5 man group togather to do quests ..
you see i'm in a small guild and we are not very close since we live very fasr fram each other ..living in iceland dos that to you ..
we had a few level 60 players in the guild but they saw it best to leave and join an other guild for end game ..we ended up with 3 level 60 players adn a few on a fast track to 60 ..
now the second time we had players leave the guild to join a big guild doing end game instnaces ..
and again we were left with to few level 60 mambers to do instance withthe guild ..then i'm talking bout the 5 man quests ..
in the recent days i'm also seeing a lot of players simply looking passt the quests it's not worth it .. the rewards suck .. the 5 man quests are often simply to hard to many to hard mobs to kill there for the instance becomes much much longer then it should be and the rewards are far to often to small ...
also i have noticed that the level limits on instances are simply wrong .. take for example mauradon .. supposed to be level 30-40 instance .. ok then why do casual players level 60 get wiped in there in a party of lets say 2-3 level 60 and 2-3 level 30 -60 ... it's simple you need the right combination of group to this instance and i have never heard of any one doing it with out help form level 50-60 ..
and for a small guild of casual players that do have the freedom to make create there own character the way they please it sometimes ends up being the 5 players on the same level but all are the same type so the 5 man instances are not possible .. which means you have to find people (pickups ) to do it with you ... which splits the guild
and that males me a bit mad ... this whole end game stuff is starting to make me mad ...
now the content is well ... not working i think i have done all the quests in the game and i'm starting new char and he's doing the same quests .. haven't found a single new one .. nothing fresh .. no new bos has moved into the deadmines ... there are no new guyd hiding in the ruins alterac selling that special something you want to go after ..
SO I SAY BLIZZARD IS NOT DOING ANY THING FOR THE CASUAL PLAYER ::: THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THE GAME EXCEPT END GAME INSTANCES AND PVP ::
I LIKE QUESTING ADVENTURING GETTING KILLED BY A BOSS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INSTANCE AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO KILL HIM I JUST DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO SPEND 9 MONTHS DOING IT AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO LEAVE MY GUILD TO DO END GAME ... AND I DO NOT LIKE PVP UNLESS WE'RE TALKING BF2 OR JO OR SOME OTHER KIND OF MILLITARY SHOOTER ..
I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME OF AN ADVETURER THAT JOINS A GROUP OF ADVETURERS TO GO EXPLORING AND SOLVING QUESTS .. (the little things that ends with a reward exp ot item or money ...usualy . i also like to see player markets buying and selling professons where you can make your own gear and sell it not something sub standard you cant use and noonw will buy)
all in all the only game that comes close to meeting my expectations is EVE .. it has fresh content every time i logg in and then i play for few months then i take a break cos EVE dosn't have end game EVE dosn't have levels EVE dosen't suddenly stop you from moving forward in the game and forward in developing your character ....EVE HAS NO LIMITS .. you can even kill any one you choose if you fell like it EVE has huge production and market system which works ...
I'm a power player .. when i play games that's what i do .. i play wow little less avery day now cos it's simply getting boring cos i don't see any new things to do..
so now i got 2 other games going to keep me spirits up while i try to finish the last quests in wow and park it .. cos my definition of power player is the player that finishis the game does all the quests ..
any ways i think i have said enough and i fell much better now after one more boring evening of WoW. and with hope in my heart that i get into the DDO beta so i can just leave WoW to my dearest uninstaller ..
thank you and good nite
As i look upon the world i see that because of lesser tolerance we are killing us all. We have the right to be free. To have our own thought and believes. like me i'm free to think that there is only one god our Lord Jesus Christ. And he said love thy neigbour.
Originally posted by NeoTiger Almost all comparsions between hardcore and casual gamers are flawed by the fact that they are written from the perspective of either a hardscore gamer or a casual gamer that would love to be hardcore end envies those that can spend more time in WoW than them. This article is no exception. Please ... don't count yourself as "casual player" if you're forcefully restricted in your play time by either job or family. Because whether or not you're "hardcore" or "casual" does not depend on how much time you spend in the game, but what you're actually doing in that time. For me, some guy who only plays 8 hours a week but therefore spends every second of it trying to advance in level and farming "phat loot" is still a "hardcore" gamer. Whether or not you're "hardcore" or "casual" depends not on your /played time but on your attitude towards time spent with the game itself. Answer yourself a few questions: Do you feel that WoW is all about achievements? Do you feel that being on a lower level than others makes you inferior? Do you envy a higher level player for his gear? Do you feel every hour not spent with leveling or farming is wasted play time? Do you think helping a lower level party in an lower level instance is a waste of time? Do you leave an instance party if you feel it's not strong enough to fight the boss? Do you think it's all just about the "endgame"? If you answer "yes" to all or most of the above questions, you're a hardcore player, regardless of how much time you spend in the game. The casual player would say no to most of these things. He's playing the game for the fun of playing it, not for the need for accomplishment. Achievements and rewards are what gives the game a nice extra flavor but isn't what drives him to play the game. He's here for the atmosphere of the game, for the many secrets to discover (casual players don't spoil themselves the game by reading everything on Thotthbot), for meeting new players (bad ones and good ones alike), the joy of experiencing how pick up group can work well together in an instance (even if nothing drops for him in the end). The casual player knows that there are dragons, epics and raid dungeons out there just as he knows that there are people in RL that drive Ferraris, have private jetplanes, huge houses and probably bathtubs made from gold while he works from 9 to 5 to make his living. He knows that he may never see some of these things during all of his game time and yet that makes it even more exciting because ... you never know ... someday he just may, because he'll get an invitation by a friend to fill a gap in a raid perhaps. And for him, going to MC or seeing one of the dragons won't be a matter of routine like for the hardcore gamers - to him, it will be an event he'll remember for days. Just like a day he may get to ride in a Ferrari some day - routine for the guy who owns such a car but still something special for someone who knows he'll never be able to afford one on his own. You might think that this point of view is rare and I'm just talking romantic rubbish. Suit yourself. But the reason you think it's unusual is, that an occassional player rarely ever bothers to read or write in a game forum. For him the game is all he needs. He turns on his computer, starts the client, plays the game and quits when he had enough. Few of them actually feel the need to communicate on a forum with others about the game, because they know there's nothing there for them - just hardcore players telling each other stories about a view of the game he doesn't share nor would he want to.
just want to mentioni play ster since i read the last post here that eventhough i considr my self power player i do not ususaly use any forums i do not ususaly use thotbot something ..
i just want to be able to explore new things when i log in do new quests i don't cara what level ..
the whole thing bout spending time in the game and all that dos not matter .. cos my view is simple i work at home and i have all the time in the world to play so i play alot.
why do i play alot it's cos ..I bought the game... AND .... I PAY FOR THE TIME I PLAY IT .. so the faster i play the less i pay .. since we are not charged by time played .. i play hard every day in hopes that the time i quit leaves me standing near the end of the month instead of the begining of one ..
yeah i'm cheap .. but when you pay for 3-4 games a month and various other online subs you try to save when you can .. and as for being able to log in and don
As i look upon the world i see that because of lesser tolerance we are killing us all. We have the right to be free. To have our own thought and believes. like me i'm free to think that there is only one god our Lord Jesus Christ. And he said love thy neigbour.
Stormgaard has it right. You get out of the game what you put it. I play it for FUN!
There are some days when I want to get in there and grind and quest and level, and then there are some days I play very casually (and since Herbs and Alch are my profession, it's fun to just go herb gathering and make potions for others to use, and I GIVE away more than I sell). And I know I do this a lot for fun, because my skills in each are clearly higher than Blizzard had prepared for. I can make potions that I'm not a high enough level to use, and for a lot of the potoins that I can make, the herbs are in zones that are WELL above me (I'm 29, and herbs are in 40-50 zones...)
But does this stop me?? Not one bit! I'm disappointed, but that doesn't stop me from going out there and having fun. I have a group of 5-8 friends that I play with regularly, of both higher and lower level than me, and even in different guilds. We just like playing together! One is a grinder, another is totally causal, and most of the others are like me. We get online to have fun.
I've gotten my fifteen bucks a month out of it, and will probably continue for a long time.
Now if they could just pick a differnt day for their weekly maint.... (Tuesdays are my Sat....<sigh>)
mmorpg are not developed for casual gamers. the games are drivin by the hard core gamers. developers spend the most time developing the content that the hard core gamers play in. the developers are hard core gamers themselves.
is there other content that can be done by casual gamers? yes
are there alot of casual gamers who play mmorpg? yes, infact they probably outnumber hard core gamers by 10 to 1 or more.
are there mmo games for casual gamers? yes games without loot like city of heroes
like another poster pointed out alot of the people posting here are complaining that they can never get the rewards that hard core gamers get, the loot, and yet at the same time, these casual gamers will try and tell you its about the game play not the rewards. And yet i still read these posts, "I am a casual gamer and I want to be able to get the same kind of loot that hardcore people get, without all that time commitment"
why cant developers make a game that is for casual gamers? cause it will fall on its face without hard core content.even if they do manage to keep a server or two open, it will not pay for the development costs that go into one of these kind of games.
Originally posted by The-Grudge mmorpg are not developed for casual gamers. the games are drivin by the hard core gamers. developers spend the most time developing the content that the hard core gamers play in. the developers are hard core gamers themselves.is there other content that can be done by casual gamers? yesare there alot of casual gamers who play mmorpg? yes, infact they probably outnumber hard core gamers by 10 to 1 or more. are there mmo games for casual gamers? yes games without loot like city of heroeslike another poster pointed out alot of the people posting here are complaining that they can never get the rewards that hard core gamers get, the loot, and yet at the same time, these casual gamers will try and tell you its about the game play not the rewards. And yet i still read these posts, "I am a casual gamer and I want to be able to get the same kind of loot that hardcore people get, without all that time commitment"why cant developers make a game that is for casual gamers? cause it will fall on its face without hard core content.even if they do manage to keep a server or two open, it will not pay for the development costs that go into one of these kind of games.
Uh... CoH is not more casual friendly as WoW. At least in WoW you dont have to group all the way to 60, in CoH i had trouble completing level 20+ missins solo. Grind is not casual friendly. So far WoW is the most casual friendly game on the market with least noticable grind and least amount of forced grouping.
the article is inferring that WoW needs more end game. Here is an idea. Try playing another game. Once you have mastered one it is time to move on to a better game and don't worry there are plenty better games than WoW. GuildWars for one!
First and foremost I'd like to say thank-you for such a good article.
I am a casual, solo, player and used to play WoW apprx. 25 hours a week. Sometimes for an hour or two in the morning, maybe a sneaked hour in the afternoon and the rest in the evening.
I enjoyed playing WoW and played it for 6 months. During the 6 months I had attained level 60, as a solo'er. Unfortunately after that my options were limited, join a guild, 'do' instances or maybe wait in line to fight against the horde with a group of folk I didnt know. Because of the casual nature of my gaming I felt it unfair to join any guild as I couldn't guarantee to be available as and when someone else wanted. 'Doing' instances with groups of disparate players isn't all that much fun especially if some are more experienced than others - and they get impatient, or rude or worse.......
So in my case it was thank-you for a great six months WoW and good-bye and good luck to you.
I am now a casual player of Guild Wars, and although I have reached the top-level (20) there is still lots to do, mobs to fight, and the small groups for questing are fine for me (especially as a solo'er) as you can make up for player shortfall with 'henchmen'. I have also joined a guild safe in the knowledge that they know I'm a casual player but will help if and when I can.
Originally posted by DeathWolf2u This is definately an easy one to sum up which I have done countless amount of times in the forums. Casual = People who have lives, real jobs and real responsibilties, 20 hours a week is still feasible but some real life resonsibilties might go undone. Hardcore = People with no life, real job or real responsibilties, these are people who generally have someone else supporting their lazy a$$ giving them 24/7 to devote their worthless life entirely to a game. Also arrogant thinking somehow this makes them elite because they are ahead of the casual gamers, geez I wonder why.
I have to disagree with you. I am a hardcore warcraft fan and a player as well. I do devote a large amount of time to warcraft but I still take care of things in RL frist.
Casual= The ones who play when theres nothing on TV...
Hardcore= The ones who play alot and care about their charachters standing (pvp ranks,gear,ect)in the world.
What a sweeping statement. I play 40 hours a week ..more than a full time job because I am passionate about my hobby. The reason I have the time is I am a dedicated stay at home father who has reduced his working hours from 35 to 25 hours a week to look after my daughter. The fact she sleeps a lot allows me the hardcore status. I cannot go out due to my parental role. To bandy around insults is the sign of immaturity and half arsed thinking. And by the way WoW is the macdonalds of the mmorg world. It caters mainly for teenagers and at 36 I prefer to indulge in the finer gourmets available online.
The solution to the problems raised by end game WoW and its decline as a top game is solved very easily. Guildwars is free, also levels off at 20 and the pvp is as fair as you can get. The only advantage hardcore players have is experience of the game instead of the size of thier sword. Of course the graphics are infineatly better on Guildwars, instancing prevents ninja stealing of boss loot, and the community on the whole is mature. My case should be proved when GW wins all the awards that WoW thought it had in the bag.
P.S. despite what you read every one from Europe is on same server so you can meet your friends online very easily.
Originally posted by Endemondia The solution to the problems raised by end game WoW and its decline as a top game is solved very easily. Guildwars is free, also levels off at 20 and the pvp is as fair as you can get. The only advantage hardcore players have is experience of the game instead of the size of thier sword. Of course the graphics are infineatly better on Guildwars, instancing prevents ninja stealing of boss loot, and the community on the whole is mature. My case should be proved when GW wins all the awards that WoW thought it had in the bag. P.S. despite what you read every one from Europe is on same server so you can meet your friends online very easily.
That will hardly happen becuase GW is not completely MMORPG. Even developers called it something else (forgot what).GW is fun to PvP, but PvP alone will not hold the amount of players WoW currently holds. Now if GW would add a HUGE amount of PvE content in the future, then it might rival WoW.
I personaly find PvE in GW incompetent because of instancing and lack of content. And ninja looting? What is that? There is no ninja looting in WoW, unless group leader sets up a FREE-FOR-ALL looting. Instancing removes a HUGE socializing part of the game - to me that is very important. I like to meet new people, and if i see someone getting beaten up, I like to jump in and help them. Full instancing = single player game. The only social places in GW are the towns, where you dont do any combat. The only reason I play GW now and then is for PvP.
I agree on the graphics part, GW graphics are realy beautiful, not necessarily better then WoW, just beautiful in a different way.
Very interesting been looking for a thread with this point of view.
A forum message by one of the WOW moderators really gave the lie to WOW for me though they were commenting on the difficulty in organising big groups and raids and that they appreciated peoples problems with it, admitting that they enjoyed playing like this often but woudl work on options for 'other' people.
This means that Blizzard staff not only work on the game but play it in their free time and for fun a lot.
This game is made by geeks for geeks. Claims that they support a variety of playing styles are just rubbish. They see no separation between work and relaxation.
I here reports about people who do the instances over and over and over they are seriously lacking in social development. Hard core nerdism. There is no way you can spend 40-60 hours a week on this and hope to find a social partner with less than two heads. I also here from teachers and friends who are parents wow is not good for a young people; academically, socially or physically.
My main justification for trying WOW was that table top RPGs were hard to organise with busy friends and this seemed like a good way to do it. But I never learn the real names of people on WOW, no real contact, they are gone when the game is off and all the effort in networking and relationships is pointless its wow specific and virtual.
I also find strong criticism with the game in that;
i) There is little documentation on how to play the game in-game
ii) You are required to study multiple forums in order to get on with it
iii) The rules are extremely mechanical and constantly changing to make it fair-er. Not very consistent. It's overworked and not very maleable except to rule-rapists.
iv) Communication & networking is a fundamental aspect but the tools are non-existent; even more meta-game games
Ive decided to go back to the table top RPGs and see my friends socially again at least once a fortnight. I doubt that the hard core players could manage that.
Originally posted by Darsint99 WOW the Meta-game game. By geeks for geeks.Very interesting been looking for a thread with this point of view.A forum message by one of the WOW moderators really gave the lie to WOW for me though they were commenting on the difficulty in organising big groups and raids and that they appreciated peoples problems with it, admitting that they enjoyed playing like this often but woudl work on options for 'other' people.This means that Blizzard staff not only work on the game but play it in their free time and for fun a lot. This game is made by geeks for geeks. Claims that they support a variety of playing styles are just rubbish. They see no separation between work and relaxation. I here reports about people who do the instances over and over and over they are seriously lacking in social development. Hard core nerdism. There is no way you can spend 40-60 hours a week on this and hope to find a social partner with less than two heads. I also here from teachers and friends who are parents wow is not good for a young people; academically, socially or physically.My main justification for trying WOW was that table top RPGs were hard to organise with busy friends and this seemed like a good way to do it. But I never learn the real names of people on WOW, no real contact, they are gone when the game is off and all the effort in networking and relationships is pointless its wow specific and virtual. I also find strong criticism with the game in that; i) There is little documentation on how to play the game in-game ii) You are required to study multiple forums in order to get on with it iii) The rules are extremely mechanical and constantly changing to make it fair-er. Not very consistent. It's overworked and not very maleable except to rule-rapists. iv) Communication & networking is a fundamental aspect but the tools are non-existent; even more meta-game games Ive decided to go back to the table top RPGs and see my friends socially again at least once a fortnight. I doubt that the hard core players could manage that.
Lack of any proof to back your thin logic disproves your own theory.
Getting Elite is not hard, you just have to be respectfull towards others and post your opinions based on some sort of logic. You cant say "Apples are bad becuase they are round", that doesnt make sense. If you keep posting that you will never get to elite status.
Comments
I would love to see WoW implement similar system to what Planetside has. In planetside, a level 1 character has only very minimal disadvantage from the highest level character. The higher your toon is, the more weapons u can use - your arsenal increases but your weapons stay the same. That way you are still encouraged to level so you can use a wider range of weapons, but you dont feel underpowered compared to higher level toons.
WoW doesnt have a great system regarding this issue, but its not so bad. WoW still relies a lot on player's personal skill rather then just random chance like EQ (although not to the extend Planetside does, in Planetside, your skills matter about 80-90% of time, while the rest is random chance). I personaly have dueled and won fights with cocky farmers who had realy good gear (compared to mine) but lacked skill. But yes, if u take 2 level 60 chars with same talents, same stats, but different weapons (one is weak, the other is strong) then the player with stronger weapons will win most of the time. This should be fixed so that casual players dont feel underpowered compared to hardcore players but at the same time not letting hardcore players feel that their greater effort has no meaning whatsoever. A system where weapons are essencialy doesnt matter BUT it still gives some sort of advantage (a wider choice of weapons like Planetside for example) would benefit both playstyles I believe.
Regarding Hardcore-Casual:
Casual (according to http://m-w.com/dictionary/casual)
1 : subject to, resulting from, or occurring by chance
2 a : occurring without regularity : OCCASIONAL b : employed for irregular periods
3 a : feeling or showing little concern : NONCHALANT b (1) : INFORMAL, NATURAL (2) : designed for informal use
synonym see ACCIDENTAL, RANDOM
- ca·su·al·ly adverb
- ca·su·al·ness noun
Hardcore (according to http://m-w.com/dictionary/hardcore)
1 : a central or fundamental and usually enduring group or part: as a : a relatively small enduring core of society marked by apparent resistance to change or inability to escape a persistent wretched condition (as poverty or chronic unemployment) b : a militant or fiercely loyal faction
2 usually hard·core /-"kOr, -"kor/ chiefly British : hard material in pieces (as broken bricks or stone) used as a bottom (as in making roads and in foundations)
#2 fits best for casual definition.
Hardocre definition doesnt havea clear connection to gaming playstyle, but I believe key phrases like "persistent condition" or "chronic" fits best this describtion.
Definition of chronic ( http://m-w.com/dictionary/chronic)
1 a : marked by long duration or frequent recurrence : not acute <chronic indigestion> <chronic experiments> b : suffering from a chronic disease <the special needs of chronic patients>
2 a : always present or encountered; especially : constantly vexing, weakening, or troubling <chronic petty warfare> b : being such habitually <a chronic grumbler>
Here #1 fits hardcore playstyle best.
So, as you can see, casual/hardcore IS influenced by time played, and frequency of play. So if someone plays 1-2 hours a day, we can call them casual, and if someone plays 5-10 hours a day, we call them hardcore. Those numbers are just a logical deduction, and not a law of course. I only illustrated this to show my point.
So if someone plays 8 hours a day and he didnt even reach level 20 in 1 month then that player is either a bad hardcore player, or hardcore player who likes the non-combat part of the game, but he is still hardcore IMO
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
As far as the end game being a grind I definately agree with this, I used to be a majorly hardcore player (playing 6-10 hours a day) however my server then fell apart when a few people decided to create an uber guild that would only allow six of each class to join, this meant that the five major guilds on the server all got ripped apart and the game lost all interest for me. I recently came back to the game after 3-4 months being away to discover that I could still outheal and outplay most of the characters there, and I still had pretty reasonable equipment in comparison to those around me. Even the people who were doing MC/ZG 5 times a week still only had 2-3 epics of their class set. For a casual player even if you can get on once a week for long enough to do a MC or ZG run you have next to no chance of getting any items because not enough drop for the number of people in the raids.
My final real bugbear is about the way loot is now handled in WoW, nearly all guilds capable of doing the end game content now use the DKP system, which basically means that if you are a hardcore player who is available for every raid you will nearly always have the most DKP and will always get all the top items, whereas as a part time player you will never be able to get your score to a high enough level to be in a position to get the best items.
I felt it work registering to respond to this.
When it comes to blizzard its as simple as this.
Blizzard doesnt give a damn about the casual player its evident in a couple of there games.
Diablo 2 and WoW.Diablo 2 unless you can commit all the time and patience required to reach the highend game youre not getting squat for loot. And WoW for the reasons explained.
One would think that since the casual player pays the same as Hardcore Blizzard would have an obligation to make plenty of content for them as they have for the Hardcores. As everyone can see this is not so the casual players money is not as good as the hardcores and never will be Blizzard doesnt not support or have any desire to support the playing time restraints of the casual player.
No offense but you're a communist.
Playing WoW isn't like buying a product - it's like taking a trip to Disney World. What you're saying is that if all the people who visit Disney World don't come home with the exact same set of souveneirs that they got ripped off somehow. It seems to all come down to LOOT with the complainers and the whiners here - and not at all about the experience.
The notion that WoW isn't casual friendly is retarded on it's face - it wouldn't have MILLIONS of subscribers if it wasn't.
Again not everyone will get to kill Onyixia or get a rediculous looking set of those Epic shoulderpads. And lets face it - epic armor looks pretty f*cking doofy in this game (I think it's the Dev's secret way of getting back at the powergamers). But there is PLENTY to DO without ever seeing it all. My guild is made up of 90% casual gamers and there is no end in sight for us at this point.
It's about the content, the storyline, the journey, the experience, the friends you make - NOT THE LOOT.
COMMIE!
~
Stormgaard
The Se7en Samurai
http://www.se7ensamurai.com
No offense but you're a communist.
Playing WoW isn't like buying a product - it's like taking a trip to Disney World. What you're saying is that if all the people who visit Disney World don't come home with the exact same set of souveneirs that they got ripped off somehow. It seems to all come down to LOOT with the complainers and the whiners here - and not at all about the experience.
The notion that WoW isn't casual friendly is retarded on it's face - it wouldn't have MILLIONS of subscribers if it wasn't.
Again not everyone will get to kill Onyixia or get a rediculous looking set of those Epic shoulderpads. And lets face it - epic armor looks pretty f*cking doofy in this game (I think it's the Dev's secret way of getting back at the powergamers). But there is PLENTY to DO without ever seeing it all. My guild is made up of 90% casual gamers and there is no end in sight for us at this point.
It's about the content, the storyline, the journey, the experience, the friends you make - NOT THE LOOT.
COMMIE!
~
You know you must be one of the hardcore players and I would expect such a response from a blizzard fanboy. And the Disney thing has nothing to do with the point i was making because when one pays to go into Disney they dont pay for the all the souveneirs as well other wise Disney would find it quite difficult to keep there shops stocked. And besides if I do go to disney and I want to buy the same stuff as the next guy I can do that I dont have to spend the same amont of time he did there i can just go in and buy the same products and leave. and you do buy and pay for the right to play WoW which makes it a product that Blizzard is selling people. And wacth who you attack for voicing there opnion NAZI
Stormgaard
NAZI
http://www.se7ensamurai.com[/b][/quote]
I think WoW is as casual-friendly as it can be. You can solo all the way, and you CAN get purple items if u raid once a week on weekends... Of course the chance is very small but thats how it is supposed to be. You get greater rewards with more time spent, if you dont spend more time, you SHOULDNT be rewarded. Its not fair to reward equialy everyone, regardless of how much time they invest into this game.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
ok power players gold farmers uber guilds ..small guild casual players ..it's all the same .
been playng wow for 9 months now and whats has happened ,,well the game is flat now ..i'm level 60 rogue been doing some instances ..always raid ,,it's hard to get 5 man group togather to do quests ..
you see i'm in a small guild and we are not very close since we live very fasr fram each other ..living in iceland dos that to you ..
we had a few level 60 players in the guild but they saw it best to leave and join an other guild for end game ..we ended up with 3 level 60 players adn a few on a fast track to 60 ..
now the second time we had players leave the guild to join a big guild doing end game instnaces ..
and again we were left with to few level 60 mambers to do instance withthe guild ..then i'm talking bout the 5 man quests ..
in the recent days i'm also seeing a lot of players simply looking passt the quests it's not worth it .. the rewards suck .. the 5 man quests are often simply to hard to many to hard mobs to kill there for the instance becomes much much longer then it should be and the rewards are far to often to small ...
also i have noticed that the level limits on instances are simply wrong .. take for example mauradon .. supposed to be level 30-40 instance .. ok then why do casual players level 60 get wiped in there in a party of lets say 2-3 level 60 and 2-3 level 30 -60 ... it's simple you need the right combination of group to this instance and i have never heard of any one doing it with out help form level 50-60 ..
and for a small guild of casual players that do have the freedom to make create there own character the way they please it sometimes ends up being the 5 players on the same level but all are the same type so the 5 man instances are not possible .. which means you have to find people (pickups ) to do it with you ... which splits the guild
now the content is well ... not working i think i have done all the quests in the game and i'm starting new char and he's doing the same quests .. haven't found a single new one .. nothing fresh .. no new bos has moved into the deadmines ... there are no new guyd hiding in the ruins alterac selling that special something you want to go after ..
SO I SAY BLIZZARD IS NOT DOING ANY THING FOR THE CASUAL PLAYER ::: THERE IS NOTHING NEW IN THE GAME EXCEPT END GAME INSTANCES AND PVP ::
I LIKE QUESTING ADVENTURING GETTING KILLED BY A BOSS IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INSTANCE AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO KILL HIM I JUST DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO SPEND 9 MONTHS DOING IT AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO LEAVE MY GUILD TO DO END GAME ... AND I DO NOT LIKE PVP UNLESS WE'RE TALKING BF2 OR JO OR SOME OTHER KIND OF MILLITARY SHOOTER ..
I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME OF AN ADVETURER THAT JOINS A GROUP OF ADVETURERS TO GO EXPLORING AND SOLVING QUESTS .. (the little things that ends with a reward exp ot item or money ...usualy . i also like to see player markets buying and selling professons where you can make your own gear and sell it not something sub standard you cant use and noonw will buy)
all in all the only game that comes close to meeting my expectations is EVE .. it has fresh content every time i logg in and then i play for few months then i take a break cos EVE dosn't have end game EVE dosn't have levels EVE dosen't suddenly stop you from moving forward in the game and forward in developing your character ....EVE HAS NO LIMITS .. you can even kill any one you choose if you fell like it EVE has huge production and market system which works ...
I'm a power player .. when i play games that's what i do .. i play wow little less avery day now cos it's simply getting boring cos i don't see any new things to do..
so now i got 2 other games going to keep me spirits up while i try to finish the last quests in wow and park it .. cos my definition of power player is the player that finishis the game does all the quests ..
any ways i think i have said enough and i fell much better now after one more boring evening of WoW. and with hope in my heart that i get into the DDO beta so i can just leave WoW to my dearest uninstaller ..
thank you and good nite
As i look upon the world i see that because of lesser tolerance we are killing us all.
We have the right to be free.
To have our own thought and believes.
like me i'm free to think that there is only one god our Lord Jesus Christ. And he said love thy neigbour.
You've said it all!
just want to mentioni play ster since i read the last post here that eventhough i considr my self power player i do not ususaly use any forums i do not ususaly use thotbot something ..
i just want to be able to explore new things when i log in do new quests i don't cara what level ..
the whole thing bout spending time in the game and all that dos not matter .. cos my view is simple i work at home and i have all the time in the world to play so i play alot.
why do i play alot it's cos ..I bought the game... AND .... I PAY FOR THE TIME I PLAY IT .. so the faster i play the less i pay .. since we are not charged by time played .. i play hard every day in hopes that the time i quit leaves me standing near the end of the month instead of the begining of one ..
yeah i'm cheap .. but when you pay for 3-4 games a month and various other online subs you try to save when you can .. and as for being able to log in and don
As i look upon the world i see that because of lesser tolerance we are killing us all.
We have the right to be free.
To have our own thought and believes.
like me i'm free to think that there is only one god our Lord Jesus Christ. And he said love thy neigbour.
Stormgaard has it right. You get out of the game what you put it. I play it for FUN!
There are some days when I want to get in there and grind and quest and level, and then there are some days I play very casually (and since Herbs and Alch are my profession, it's fun to just go herb gathering and make potions for others to use, and I GIVE away more than I sell). And I know I do this a lot for fun, because my skills in each are clearly higher than Blizzard had prepared for. I can make potions that I'm not a high enough level to use, and for a lot of the potoins that I can make, the herbs are in zones that are WELL above me (I'm 29, and herbs are in 40-50 zones...)
But does this stop me?? Not one bit! I'm disappointed, but that doesn't stop me from going out there and having fun. I have a group of 5-8 friends that I play with regularly, of both higher and lower level than me, and even in different guilds. We just like playing together! One is a grinder, another is totally causal, and most of the others are like me. We get online to have fun.
I've gotten my fifteen bucks a month out of it, and will probably continue for a long time.
Now if they could just pick a differnt day for their weekly maint.... (Tuesdays are my Sat....<sigh>)
Torinleaf on Eldre'Thalas
mmorpg are not developed for casual gamers. the games are drivin by the hard core gamers. developers spend the most time developing the content that the hard core gamers play in. the developers are hard core gamers themselves.
is there other content that can be done by casual gamers? yes
are there alot of casual gamers who play mmorpg? yes, infact they probably outnumber hard core gamers by 10 to 1 or more.
are there mmo games for casual gamers? yes games without loot like city of heroes
like another poster pointed out alot of the people posting here are complaining that they can never get the rewards that hard core gamers get, the loot, and yet at the same time, these casual gamers will try and tell you its about the game play not the rewards. And yet i still read these posts, "I am a casual gamer and I want to be able to get the same kind of loot that hardcore people get, without all that time commitment"
why cant developers make a game that is for casual gamers? cause it will fall on its face without hard core content.even if they do manage to keep a server or two open, it will not pay for the development costs that go into one of these kind of games.
Uh... CoH is not more casual friendly as WoW. At least in WoW you dont have to group all the way to 60, in CoH i had trouble completing level 20+ missins solo. Grind is not casual friendly. So far WoW is the most casual friendly game on the market with least noticable grind and least amount of forced grouping.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
First and foremost I'd like to say thank-you for such a good article.
I am a casual, solo, player and used to play WoW apprx. 25 hours a week. Sometimes for an hour or two in the morning, maybe a sneaked hour in the afternoon and the rest in the evening.
I enjoyed playing WoW and played it for 6 months. During the 6 months I had attained level 60, as a solo'er. Unfortunately after that my options were limited, join a guild, 'do' instances or maybe wait in line to fight against the horde with a group of folk I didnt know. Because of the casual nature of my gaming I felt it unfair to join any guild as I couldn't guarantee to be available as and when someone else wanted. 'Doing' instances with groups of disparate players isn't all that much fun especially if some are more experienced than others - and they get impatient, or rude or worse.......
So in my case it was thank-you for a great six months WoW and good-bye and good luck to you.
I am now a casual player of Guild Wars, and although I have reached the top-level (20) there is still lots to do, mobs to fight, and the small groups for questing are fine for me (especially as a solo'er) as you can make up for player shortfall with 'henchmen'. I have also joined a guild safe in the knowledge that they know I'm a casual player but will help if and when I can.
I have to disagree with you. I am a hardcore warcraft fan and a player as well. I do devote a large amount of time to warcraft but I still take care of things in RL frist.
Casual= The ones who play when theres nothing on TV...
Hardcore= The ones who play alot and care about their charachters standing (pvp ranks,gear,ect)in the world.
The solution to the problems raised by end game WoW and its decline as a top game is solved very easily. Guildwars is free, also levels off at 20 and the pvp is as fair as you can get. The only advantage hardcore players have is experience of the game instead of the size of thier sword. Of course the graphics are infineatly better on Guildwars, instancing prevents ninja stealing of boss loot, and the community on the whole is mature. My case should be proved when GW wins all the awards that WoW thought it had in the bag.
P.S. despite what you read every one from Europe is on same server so you can meet your friends online very easily.
That will hardly happen becuase GW is not completely MMORPG. Even developers called it something else (forgot what).GW is fun to PvP, but PvP alone will not hold the amount of players WoW currently holds. Now if GW would add a HUGE amount of PvE content in the future, then it might rival WoW.
I personaly find PvE in GW incompetent because of instancing and lack of content. And ninja looting? What is that? There is no ninja looting in WoW, unless group leader sets up a FREE-FOR-ALL looting. Instancing removes a HUGE socializing part of the game - to me that is very important. I like to meet new people, and if i see someone getting beaten up, I like to jump in and help them. Full instancing = single player game. The only social places in GW are the towns, where you dont do any combat. The only reason I play GW now and then is for PvP.
I agree on the graphics part, GW graphics are realy beautiful, not necessarily better then WoW, just beautiful in a different way.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
WOW the Meta-game game. By geeks for geeks.
Very interesting been looking for a thread with this point of view.
A forum message by one of the WOW moderators really gave the lie to WOW for me though they were commenting on the difficulty in organising big groups and raids and that they appreciated peoples problems with it, admitting that they enjoyed playing like this often but woudl work on options for 'other' people.
This means that Blizzard staff not only work on the game but play it in their free time and for fun a lot.
This game is made by geeks for geeks. Claims that they support a variety of playing styles are just rubbish. They see no separation between work and relaxation.
I here reports about people who do the instances over and over and over they are seriously lacking in social development. Hard core nerdism. There is no way you can spend 40-60 hours a week on this and hope to find a social partner with less than two heads. I also here from teachers and friends who are parents wow is not good for a young people; academically, socially or physically.
My main justification for trying WOW was that table top RPGs were hard to organise with busy friends and this seemed like a good way to do it. But I never learn the real names of people on WOW, no real contact, they are gone when the game is off and all the effort in networking and relationships is pointless its wow specific and virtual.
I also find strong criticism with the game in that;
i) There is little documentation on how to play the game in-game
ii) You are required to study multiple forums in order to get on with it
iii) The rules are extremely mechanical and constantly changing to make it fair-er. Not very consistent. It's overworked and not very maleable except to rule-rapists.
iv) Communication & networking is a fundamental aspect but the tools are non-existent; even more meta-game games
Ive decided to go back to the table top RPGs and see my friends socially again at least once a fortnight. I doubt that the hard core players could manage that.
Lack of any proof to back your thin logic disproves your own theory.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Woops - I've been snubbed by and elite member!
Does that make you hard core?
How do I get ot be elite? Perhaps if I submit ten thousand disertations on MMORPG's I'll be qualified to make a statement?
Lol - your patch of virtual sand mate - enjoy as you like
Getting Elite is not hard, you just have to be respectfull towards others and post your opinions based on some sort of logic. You cant say "Apples are bad becuase they are round", that doesnt make sense. If you keep posting that you will never get to elite status.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.