I only wish it were a fairy tale ... I 've worked in the game industry for 15 years, and have programmed a few cash shops ... so I do know how they work, in fact I bet you have played a few of the games I have worked on.
Everyone that makes stuff up on the internet is always an expert in that field. We wouldn't really expect someone to say I have no idea what I'm talking about but..... ( enter BS story here )
You read these things enough times and you just assume it.
Hahaha you got me, well I goess that makes you an expert on everyone.
Edit: I almost feel bad for people who assume that game companies and publishers are honest and would never do anything to take advantage of people who can control their spending.
It doesn't take an expert to know that when someone can't post a single source to back up what he's saying...he's probably full of it.
How do you almost feel something ? Who said they'd never do anything to take advantage of people ? f2p games take advantage of people all the time. They do it in plain sight of everyone. They don't need to be sneaky about it.... Ever bought a key for an item that only comes from a RNG box ?
Originally posted by Dibdabs Free-tp-play is as free as you make it. I play several F2P games at the moment and have played quite a few in the past, but I haven't spent a penny on anything in Cash Shops. They don't have anything I can't live without.
Same here and if they did have anything I couldn't live without, I wouldn't be playing that game.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs
Races
Classes
Global chat tokens
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Lock box keys
Mounts
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
In-game currency
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Name/gender/appearance changes
Server changes
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
Character slots
In-game housing/Other non-combat elements
Again, which of these would you consider most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO? ...
Also let's assume you can't earn cash shop money through any sort of in-game means.
Not acceptable
Maybe - but probably not acceptable
It's that last line which makes a huge difference in my response.
Why? Because that last line makes the game Pay to Play - not Free to Play IMHO.
If you make cash shop currency obtainable in game - say by time in game, achieving goals, doing quests then most of the things on the list are okay.
The only stuff that wouldn't be okay is anything that gives any kind of advantage in PvP (or RvR) in games which offer that or stuff that is needed to complete missions that you cannot get as a F2P player.
Personally, I am a big fan of the Turbine F2P model as used in DDO and LotRO.
It rewards the F2P players for playing - and so it should - because they are actually doing Turbine a favour of sorts.
What I mean is - they help to populate those games. They keep the world 'alive'. No-one wants to go to Middle Earth and be there alone. So, you go into Bree and it's a busy town. Players are there moving around and doing stuff. If all the F2P players went away I am betting LotRO would die. But the F2P LotRO players keep it alive and encourage the players who are actually prepared to pay... to stay.
I used to be against cash shops - but really - how does it effect me?
So you have a special hairstyle that cost you US$2. Good for you! (I don't care.)
So you spent US$10 on a +10 Sword of Slime Slaying that lets you get through "Silvaths Cavern of Slime" easier? I don't care - so long as I can earn a similar item or get it as a drop (even if the chance is low).
Because I realised that cash shops cater to the "I want it now and I don't want to have to work for it!" crowd. Good. Take their money.
Personally, I don't want to rush through the content. I want to enjoy the game. Suck in the experience. Follow the story and live the tale.
You want to buy level ups?, and majic armour?, and potions?, and skills? just to get you to the final boss fight asap... then good on you. Enjoy your next game too.
I also don't object to developers charging for content - just so long as it's transparent. No hidden extras. If I buy a "life time sub" (I personally never would BTW) that should cover all expansions. If I buy an expansion I should not have to then buy a special +10 Sword of Spikey Critter Slaying to complete that content.
So long as the cash shop is clear about what you are buying - and the developers don't keep changing the rules and devaluing items you have paid for - it's all good.
Oh and Yyrkoon_PoM is correct as far as I know. Cash shops do tailor themselves to the user. They do this for many reasons. One reason is thatif you buy an item and the next day it is discounted... you would be mad - right? It also stops you mistakenly buying the same item twice. It is also sensible not to offer cheap skates like me $100 items I will never buy... but I do get prompts every time expansion packs are heavily discounted... since my purchase history shows I will spend (my in game earnt currency) on those.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs
Races
Classes
Global chat tokens
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Lock box keys
Mounts
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
In-game currency
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Name/gender/appearance changes
Server changes
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
Character slots
In-game housing/Other non-combat elements
Again, which of these would you consider most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO? ...
Also let's assume you can't earn cash shop money through any sort of in-game means.
Not acceptable
Maybe - but probably not acceptable
It's that last line which makes a huge difference in my response.
Why? Because that last line makes the game Pay to Play - not Free to Play IMHO.
If you make cash shop currency obtainable in game - say by time in game, achieving goals, doing quests then most of the things on the list are okay.
The only stuff that wouldn't be okay is anything that gives any kind of advantage in PvP (or RvR) in games which offer that or stuff that is needed to complete missions that you cannot get as a F2P player.
Personally, I am a big fan of the Turbine F2P model as used in DDO and LotRO.
It rewards the F2P players for playing - and so it should - because they are actually doing Turbine a favour of sorts.
What I mean is - they help to populate those games. They keep the world 'alive'. No-one wants to go to Middle Earth and be there alone. So, you go into Bree and it's a busy town. Players are there moving around and doing stuff. If all the F2P players went away I am betting LotRO would die. But the F2P LotRO players keep it alive and encourage the players who are actually prepared to pay... to stay.
I used to be against cash shops - but really - how does it effect me?
So you have a special hairstyle that cost you US$2. Good for you! (I don't care.)
So you spent US$10 on a +10 Sword of Slime Slaying that lets you get through "Silvaths Cavern of Slime" easier? I don't care - so long as I can earn a similar item or get it as a drop (even if the chance is low).
Because I realised that cash shops cater to the "I want it now and I don't want to have to work for it!" crowd. Good. Take their money.
Personally, I don't want to rush through the content. I want to enjoy the game. Suck in the experience. Follow the story and live the tale.
You want to buy level ups?, and majic armour?, and potions?, and skills? just to get you to the final boss fight asap... then good on you. Enjoy your next game too.
I also don't object to developers charging for content - just so long as it's transparent. No hidden extras. If I buy a "life time sub" (I personally never would BTW) that should cover all expansions. If I buy an expansion I should not have to then buy a special +10 Sword of Spikey Critter Slaying to complete that content.
So long as the cash shop is clear about what you are buying - and the developers don't keep changing the rules and devaluing items you have paid for - it's all good.
Oh and Yyrkoon_PoM is correct as far as I know. Cash shops do tailor themselves to the user. They do this for many reasons. One reason is thatif you buy an item and the next day it is discounted... you would be mad - right? It also stops you mistakenly buying the same item twice. It is also sensible not to offer cheap skates like me $100 items I will never buy... but I do get prompts every time expansion packs are heavily discounted... since my purchase history shows I will spend (my in game earnt currency) on those.
That's a pretty interesting perspective. The only reason I included that stipulation is because any and all of these things would be easier to justify when you can obtain cash-shop currency in-game. I feel like letting you obtain cash-shop currency in-game is just the developer's way of trying to keep some of the haters at bay by saying, "See...you can get all of the same things as the players with the deep pockets." And sometimes that might be true to some extent, but mostly it seems that the gains for your efforts are laughably miniscule; and you're emotionally invested by the time you realize you're going to have to supplement that cash shop currency you earned in-game with some cold, hard cash to buy whatever it is that you want or need.
These ones, I don't think are unacceptable, I just don't think they're very smart. The whole point of F2P is "get 'em hooked, and then get 'em to spend money". I don't think getting someone hooked and then trying to persuade them to spend money so they can start again from level 1 is a winning idea.
Global chat tokens
This one is just dumb:
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
These are pay-to-win and I very much frown on any game trying to profit from them:
In-game currency
I'm OK with this if and only if it is players selling to each other, a la EVE's Plex and D3's RMAH goldselling. That way the price is truly set by supply and demand.
I'm not a fan of the developer fixing the price and selling currency, the way GW2 does, for instance.
Lock box keys
Any gambling sales in a cash shop are disgusting, developers should hang their heads in shame trying to profit from persuading children to gamble.
That's a pretty interesting perspective. The only reason I included that stipulation is because any and all of these things would be easier to justify when you can obtain cash-shop currency in-game. I feel like letting you obtain cash-shop currency in-game is just the developer's way of trying to keep some of the haters at bay by saying, "See...you can get all of the same things as the players with the deep pockets." And sometimes that might be true to some extent, but mostly it seems that the gains for your efforts are laughably miniscule;...
It really does depend on the game and the 'greed' of the developer (and / or publisher).
LotRO is a really good example of a Free to Play game where the cash shop currency (Turbine Points) can be easily and quickly earnt in game if you know how and where to look. DDO is also easy - but can be "grindy"
Since Turbine Points are the same for everyone (whether you pay real cash or complete Deeds) then the F2P player is at no disadvantage at all - if they are prepared to give up thier time that is!
For someone like me - who loves Alts and exploring - the Turbine Points roll in faster than I need to spend them. I own everything up to the last expansion (Rohan) but my Characters haven't even got through Moria yet - and they will probably earn hundreds more TP on the way.
But, as far as I am concerned if someone wants to pay Turbine $100 to get what I have - or maybe jump ahead to Rohan? - good. It keeps the expansions rolling in and maybe one day I'll get that far.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
I find these type of items to be the least intrusive, but it all really depends how the items are implemented.
That's a pretty interesting perspective. The only reason I included that stipulation is because any and all of these things would be easier to justify when you can obtain cash-shop currency in-game. I feel like letting you obtain cash-shop currency in-game is just the developer's way of trying to keep some of the haters at bay by saying, "See...you can get all of the same things as the players with the deep pockets." And sometimes that might be true to some extent, but mostly it seems that the gains for your efforts are laughably miniscule;...
It really does depend on the game and the 'greed' of the developer (and / or publisher).
LotRO is a really good example of a Free to Play game where the cash shop currency (Turbine Points) can be easily and quickly earnt in game if you know how and where to look. DDO is also easy - but can be "grindy"
Since Turbine Points are the same for everyone (whether you pay real cash or complete Deeds) then the F2P player is at no disadvantage at all - if they are prepared to give up thier time that is!
For someone like me - who loves Alts and exploring - the Turbine Points roll in faster than I need to spend them. I own everything up to the last expansion (Rohan) but my Characters haven't even got through Moria yet - and they will probably earn hundreds more TP on the way.
But, as far as I am concerned if someone wants to pay Turbine $100 to get what I have - or maybe jump ahead to Rohan? - good. It keeps the expansions rolling in and maybe one day I'll get that far.
Hm...interesting. I didn't realize Turbine Points were so easy to get in Lord of the Rings. Could you give an approximation as to how earning TP in game might compare to spending money on it (i.e. how many hours would it take to earn $5 or $10 worth of TP)?
Originally posted by jalexbrown Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Acceptable:
Chat tokens (Well, if your message is so important to be broadcast server-wide... o.O)
Server changes (Irregular database entry movements and alterations are, if badly maintained, unhealthy serverwide)
Cosmetic pets (Pay4DifferentLook is okay)
Cosmetic equipment (Pay4DifferentLook is okay)
Character Slots (Need more database space? Pay for it.)
Name/gender/app changes (Irregular database entry movements and alterations are, if badly maintained, unhealthy serverwide)
Neutral:
Housing/Non-Combat elements (Could be seen like DLC)
Not acceptable:
Content Packs/XPansions (We got enough games which are ripping off with DLC!)
Races/Classes (Don't discriminate the playerbase by not letting them play what they want!)
XP Pots (Pay2Win(faster))
Rez items (Pay2Win)
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells (Pay2Win)
Lockbox keys (Lottery system, even illegal in some countries!)
Mounts (Should be earned by grinding/questing, not obtained via your wallet)
In-game currency (Pay2Win)
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells (Pay2Win)
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells (Pay2Win(faster))
Originally posted by jalexbrown Hm...interesting. I didn't realize Turbine Points were so easy to get in Lord of the Rings. Could you give an approximation as to how earning TP in game might compare to spending money on it (i.e. how many hours would it take to earn $5 or $10 worth of TP)?
From what I've read, if you efficiently and optimally grind, you can make 50c to $1 worth of TP per hour. So 5-10 hours for $5, 10-20 hours for $10.
Personally I can't imagine why anyone would do it. It's nice to get some TPs as you play the game, and just playing through will probably net enough to buy a quest pack or something, but grinding them out? Just ask mummy and daddy if you can do some extra chores and get some extra pocket money.
Originally posted by jalexbrown Hm...interesting. I didn't realize Turbine Points were so easy to get in Lord of the Rings. Could you give an approximation as to how earning TP in game might compare to spending money on it (i.e. how many hours would it take to earn $5 or $10 worth of TP)?
From what I've read, if you efficiently and optimally grind, you can make 50c to $1 worth of TP per hour. So 5-10 hours for $5, 10-20 hours for $10.
Personally I can't imagine why anyone would do it. It's nice to get some TPs as you play the game, and just playing through will probably net enough to buy a quest pack or something, but grinding them out? Just ask mummy and daddy if you can do some extra chores and get some extra pocket money.
If I was going that route, I'd rather pay a buck or even two bucks to save myself an hour of grinding. I wouldn't spend an hour doing any sort of work in the real world for a couple bucks, so I'm certainly not going to do it in something that I'm supposed to be enjoying.
Originally posted by jalexbrown If I was going that route, I'd rather pay a buck or even two bucks to save myself an hour of grinding. I wouldn't spend an hour doing any sort of work in the real world for a couple bucks, so I'm certainly not going to do it in something that I'm supposed to be enjoying.
Indeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
Originally posted by jalexbrown If I was going that route, I'd rather pay a buck or even two bucks to save myself an hour of grinding. I wouldn't spend an hour doing any sort of work in the real world for a couple bucks, so I'm certainly not going to do it in something that I'm supposed to be enjoying.
Indeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
And there is my point.
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
For example in LotRO I have a Dwarf cook/drunkard who likes to eat and get drunk at festivals and is currently sleeping it off in the Misty Mountains after a bit of exploring in Moria. A Captain in Evendim. An Elvish Hunter in Angmar... who should really get back to Moria but got tied up in the war in the north. A Hobbit Minstrel in the Shire. A Human Champion who is heading south to Enedwaith... and I also started a few "Perma Death" characters too - which actually works well in LotRO. So the amount of Deeds these guys complete is huge. I don't see it as grinding. I am exploring and finding stuff most people miss.
But if people want to pay money to by-pass all that - who am I to complain?
Originally posted by jalexbrown If I was going that route, I'd rather pay a buck or even two bucks to save myself an hour of grinding. I wouldn't spend an hour doing any sort of work in the real world for a couple bucks, so I'm certainly not going to do it in something that I'm supposed to be enjoying.
Indeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
And there is my point.
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
For example in LotRO I have a Dwarf cook/drunkard who likes to eat and get drunk at festivals and is currently sleeping it off in the Misty Mountains after a bit of exploring in Moria. A Captain in Evendim. An Elvish Hunter in Angmar... who should really get back to Moria but got tied up in the war in the north. A Hobbit Minstrel in the Shire. A Human Champion who is heading south to Enedwaith... and I also started a few "Perma Death" characters too - which actually works well in LotRO. So the amount of Deeds these guys complete is huge. I don't see it as grinding. I am exploring and finding stuff most people miss.
But if people want to pay money to by-pass all that - who am I to complain?
I could see that being enjoyable as long as you're not having to repeat a lot of the same content ad nauseum. I don't mind playing alts, so long as those alts will provide me with new things to see and experience.
Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by jalexbrown acceptable in a free to play MMO?Cosmetic petsCosmetic equipmentName/gender/appearance changesServer changes
acceptable only. rest is not-acceptable. I don't feel like ranking. I would add however "Content Expansion", agree it will not be f2p anymore but buy to play in this case.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
gear of average to above average quality (convenience gear)
to me, unacceptable would be:
items to unlock rare gear (should not need to unlock gear)
rental items
potions that circumvent a standard rule of the game (for example items that let you click to resurrect when others cannot do that)
gear of superior quality
character classes that have an advantage over the free ones
there is also one item i am on the fence with: server xfers. the reason i say i'm on the fence is that i know many games charge you for this- but rift lets you change servers for free.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Originally posted by Gyrus Originally posted by BanquettoIndeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
And there is my point.
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
But efficiently earning TPs is not done by "messing around with different character classes in different zones and seeing different questlines". It's done by picking whichever character class is the most efficient killer at low levels, going to one zone, grinding some kill deeds, and then deleting him.
Playing the way you describe (which is how I played LOTRO too, by the way) will certainly net you a lot more TPs than just levelling one character. But it's not what I'm talking about when I talk about people playing with a focus on earning TPs.
Indeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
And there is my point.
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
But efficiently earning TPs is not done by "messing around with different character classes in different zones and seeing different questlines". It's done by picking whichever character class is the most efficient killer at low levels, going to one zone, grinding some kill deeds, and then deleting him.
Playing the way you describe (which is how I played LOTRO too, by the way) will certainly net you a lot more TPs than just levelling one character. But it's not what I'm talking about when I talk about people playing with a focus on earning TPs.
I guess what Gyrus is describing is a playstyle that can net you a lot of TP, but it will take a long time; on the plus side, though, it's not a grindy path to lots of TP. You're offering a competing path to lots of TP that is much more efficient in terms of time, but it's also much more grindy. Just two competing and equally viable ways to reach the same goal, it sounds like.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs
Races
Classes
Global chat tokens
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Lock box keys
Mounts
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
In-game currency
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Name/gender/appearance changes
Server changes
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
Character slots
In-game housing/Other non-combat elements
Again, which of these would you consider most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO? For the sake of some semblance of consistency, let's assume the cost of each of the above isn't a relevant factor (i.e. "Instant level is okay if it's expensive"); we're just evaluating rather or not the ability to buy the above cash-shop items (and conversely the ability to be locked out of those things by not buying) make or break the game for you. Also let's assume you can't earn cash shop money through any sort of in-game means.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs
Races
Classes
Global chat tokens
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Lock box keys
Mounts
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
In-game currency
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Name/gender/appearance changes
Server changes
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
Character slots
In-game housing/Other non-combat elements
Again, which of these would you consider most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO? For the sake of some semblance of consistency, let's assume the cost of each of the above isn't a relevant factor (i.e. "Instant level is okay if it's expensive"); we're just evaluating rather or not the ability to buy the above cash-shop items (and conversely the ability to be locked out of those things by not buying) make or break the game for you. Also let's assume you can't earn cash shop money through any sort of in-game means.
all of the above
That's a little bit of an ambiguous response. Maybe you could elaborate?
personally i'm okay with Everything being in the Cash shop, except for classes, the UI, races, and basic zone chat. as long as thosee things can be earned in game. I don't mind things like... max level armor, if it drops from a dungeon you can go to, i don't mind mounts or pets if pets of equal or close to equal stats can be gotten in game. i HATE content lock behind paywalls, like those "freemium" games. I HATE freemium, i think its the worst model over all for my gaming needs. but for some reason thats the one most western gamers love.
What they sell isn't nearly as much of a concern as how they sell it.
Some things really shouldn't be sold, but with some creativity or proper valuation, there is a lot of flexibility. I think the real issue is how it is sold, I've seen games like Atlantica sell boxes which gamble your money for a chance to get the advertised mount.
Gambling with money for digital merchandise > Absolutely unacceptable.
There are many other ways to sell things in an unacceptable manner, and some of them are just not condusive to good gameplay, like buying exp and levels... you'd rather pay money than play the game apparently, that's not reasonable...
But even if it's classes and races or character slots, it's not so much whether you charge, it's more how much you charge.
For instance, Horizons only allows you to play humans for free, but there are a lot of unique and attractive races in the game, it's OK to charge to play them, but nailing a $10-$15 subscription on an extremely dated and checkered game is not acceptable, playable dragons or not, it's not acceptable, if they charged you $5 flat for each race you unlocked, that may pass, $20 to play dragons, it could work, but double digits a month to play dragons in a game that looks worse than FFVII in the graphics department... that's just nonsense.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs
Races
Classes
Global chat tokens
Experience potions
Revival items
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells
Lock box keys
Mounts
Cosmetic pets
Cosmetic equipment
In-game currency
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment
Name/gender/appearance changes
Server changes
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't)
Character slots
In-game housing/Other non-combat elements
Again, which of these would you consider most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO? For the sake of some semblance of consistency, let's assume the cost of each of the above isn't a relevant factor (i.e. "Instant level is okay if it's expensive"); we're just evaluating rather or not the ability to buy the above cash-shop items (and conversely the ability to be locked out of those things by not buying) make or break the game for you. Also let's assume you can't earn cash shop money through any sort of in-game means.
all of the above
That's a little bit of an ambiguous response. Maybe you could elaborate?
Out of the following list of items I've seen put up in cash shops, which of the following do you think are most and least acceptable in a free to play MMO?
Content packs/Expansion Packs - least
Races - least
Classes - least
Global chat tokens - least
Experience potions - most
Revival items - most
Ability to use higher-tier weapons/armor/spells - least
Lock box keys - most
Mounts - somewhat
Cosmetic pets - most
Cosmetic equipment - most
In-game currency - most
Enchantment items / Ability to enchant equipment - somewhat
Name/gender/appearance changes - most
Server changes - most
Instant level-ups (never seen this before, but it surprises me that I haven't) - least
Comments
It doesn't take an expert to know that when someone can't post a single source to back up what he's saying...he's probably full of it.
How do you almost feel something ? Who said they'd never do anything to take advantage of people ? f2p games take advantage of people all the time. They do it in plain sight of everyone. They don't need to be sneaky about it.... Ever bought a key for an item that only comes from a RNG box ?
Same here and if they did have anything I couldn't live without, I wouldn't be playing that game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Not to completely argue the point, but does your opinion differ for MMOs that have no "losing side" or, for that matter, no sides at all?
Not acceptable
Maybe - but probably not acceptable
It's that last line which makes a huge difference in my response.
Why? Because that last line makes the game Pay to Play - not Free to Play IMHO.
If you make cash shop currency obtainable in game - say by time in game, achieving goals, doing quests then most of the things on the list are okay.
The only stuff that wouldn't be okay is anything that gives any kind of advantage in PvP (or RvR) in games which offer that or stuff that is needed to complete missions that you cannot get as a F2P player.
Personally, I am a big fan of the Turbine F2P model as used in DDO and LotRO.
It rewards the F2P players for playing - and so it should - because they are actually doing Turbine a favour of sorts.
What I mean is - they help to populate those games. They keep the world 'alive'. No-one wants to go to Middle Earth and be there alone. So, you go into Bree and it's a busy town. Players are there moving around and doing stuff. If all the F2P players went away I am betting LotRO would die. But the F2P LotRO players keep it alive and encourage the players who are actually prepared to pay... to stay.
I used to be against cash shops - but really - how does it effect me?
So you have a special hairstyle that cost you US$2. Good for you! (I don't care.)
So you spent US$10 on a +10 Sword of Slime Slaying that lets you get through "Silvaths Cavern of Slime" easier? I don't care - so long as I can earn a similar item or get it as a drop (even if the chance is low).
Because I realised that cash shops cater to the "I want it now and I don't want to have to work for it!" crowd. Good. Take their money.
Personally, I don't want to rush through the content. I want to enjoy the game. Suck in the experience. Follow the story and live the tale.
You want to buy level ups?, and majic armour?, and potions?, and skills? just to get you to the final boss fight asap... then good on you. Enjoy your next game too.
I also don't object to developers charging for content - just so long as it's transparent. No hidden extras. If I buy a "life time sub" (I personally never would BTW) that should cover all expansions. If I buy an expansion I should not have to then buy a special +10 Sword of Spikey Critter Slaying to complete that content.
So long as the cash shop is clear about what you are buying - and the developers don't keep changing the rules and devaluing items you have paid for - it's all good.
Oh and Yyrkoon_PoM is correct as far as I know. Cash shops do tailor themselves to the user. They do this for many reasons. One reason is thatif you buy an item and the next day it is discounted... you would be mad - right? It also stops you mistakenly buying the same item twice. It is also sensible not to offer cheap skates like me $100 items I will never buy... but I do get prompts every time expansion packs are heavily discounted... since my purchase history shows I will spend (my in game earnt currency) on those.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
That's a pretty interesting perspective. The only reason I included that stipulation is because any and all of these things would be easier to justify when you can obtain cash-shop currency in-game. I feel like letting you obtain cash-shop currency in-game is just the developer's way of trying to keep some of the haters at bay by saying, "See...you can get all of the same things as the players with the deep pockets." And sometimes that might be true to some extent, but mostly it seems that the gains for your efforts are laughably miniscule; and you're emotionally invested by the time you realize you're going to have to supplement that cash shop currency you earned in-game with some cold, hard cash to buy whatever it is that you want or need.
..I have no problem with any of those.
These ones, I don't think are unacceptable, I just don't think they're very smart. The whole point of F2P is "get 'em hooked, and then get 'em to spend money". I don't think getting someone hooked and then trying to persuade them to spend money so they can start again from level 1 is a winning idea.
This one is just dumb:
These are pay-to-win and I very much frown on any game trying to profit from them:
I'm OK with this if and only if it is players selling to each other, a la EVE's Plex and D3's RMAH goldselling. That way the price is truly set by supply and demand.
I'm not a fan of the developer fixing the price and selling currency, the way GW2 does, for instance.
Any gambling sales in a cash shop are disgusting, developers should hang their heads in shame trying to profit from persuading children to gamble.
It really does depend on the game and the 'greed' of the developer (and / or publisher).
LotRO is a really good example of a Free to Play game where the cash shop currency (Turbine Points) can be easily and quickly earnt in game if you know how and where to look. DDO is also easy - but can be "grindy"
Since Turbine Points are the same for everyone (whether you pay real cash or complete Deeds) then the F2P player is at no disadvantage at all - if they are prepared to give up thier time that is!
For someone like me - who loves Alts and exploring - the Turbine Points roll in faster than I need to spend them. I own everything up to the last expansion (Rohan) but my Characters haven't even got through Moria yet - and they will probably earn hundreds more TP on the way.
But, as far as I am concerned if someone wants to pay Turbine $100 to get what I have - or maybe jump ahead to Rohan? - good. It keeps the expansions rolling in and maybe one day I'll get that far.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I find these type of items to be the least intrusive, but it all really depends how the items are implemented.
Hm...interesting. I didn't realize Turbine Points were so easy to get in Lord of the Rings. Could you give an approximation as to how earning TP in game might compare to spending money on it (i.e. how many hours would it take to earn $5 or $10 worth of TP)?
Acceptable:
From what I've read, if you efficiently and optimally grind, you can make 50c to $1 worth of TP per hour. So 5-10 hours for $5, 10-20 hours for $10.
Personally I can't imagine why anyone would do it. It's nice to get some TPs as you play the game, and just playing through will probably net enough to buy a quest pack or something, but grinding them out? Just ask mummy and daddy if you can do some extra chores and get some extra pocket money.
If I was going that route, I'd rather pay a buck or even two bucks to save myself an hour of grinding. I wouldn't spend an hour doing any sort of work in the real world for a couple bucks, so I'm certainly not going to do it in something that I'm supposed to be enjoying.
Indeed. If it was genuinely enjoyable gameplay, that would be different. But efficiently grinding TPs in LOTRO basically involves creating a new character, ripping through some low-level deeds, then deleting the character; repeat ad nauseum. Not fun, not for most people anyway, I wouldn't think.
And there is my point.
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
For example in LotRO I have a Dwarf cook/drunkard who likes to eat and get drunk at festivals and is currently sleeping it off in the Misty Mountains after a bit of exploring in Moria. A Captain in Evendim. An Elvish Hunter in Angmar... who should really get back to Moria but got tied up in the war in the north. A Hobbit Minstrel in the Shire. A Human Champion who is heading south to Enedwaith... and I also started a few "Perma Death" characters too - which actually works well in LotRO. So the amount of Deeds these guys complete is huge. I don't see it as grinding. I am exploring and finding stuff most people miss.
But if people want to pay money to by-pass all that - who am I to complain?
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I could see that being enjoyable as long as you're not having to repeat a lot of the same content ad nauseum. I don't mind playing alts, so long as those alts will provide me with new things to see and experience.
I would add however "Content Expansion", agree it will not be f2p anymore but buy to play in this case.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
acceptable items to me would include:
anything cosmetic
Xp or drop rate boosters
character slots
bank spots
gear of average to above average quality (convenience gear)
to me, unacceptable would be:
items to unlock rare gear (should not need to unlock gear)
rental items
potions that circumvent a standard rule of the game (for example items that let you click to resurrect when others cannot do that)
gear of superior quality
character classes that have an advantage over the free ones
there is also one item i am on the fence with: server xfers. the reason i say i'm on the fence is that i know many games charge you for this- but rift lets you change servers for free.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
As an explorer with no interest in reaching "max level" and "endgame" (well some interest but that is not what drives me) I am quite happy to mess around with different character classes in different zones and see different questlines.
But efficiently earning TPs is not done by "messing around with different character classes in different zones and seeing different questlines". It's done by picking whichever character class is the most efficient killer at low levels, going to one zone, grinding some kill deeds, and then deleting him.
Playing the way you describe (which is how I played LOTRO too, by the way) will certainly net you a lot more TPs than just levelling one character. But it's not what I'm talking about when I talk about people playing with a focus on earning TPs.
I guess what Gyrus is describing is a playstyle that can net you a lot of TP, but it will take a long time; on the plus side, though, it's not a grindy path to lots of TP. You're offering a competing path to lots of TP that is much more efficient in terms of time, but it's also much more grindy. Just two competing and equally viable ways to reach the same goal, it sounds like.
all of the above
That's a little bit of an ambiguous response. Maybe you could elaborate?
I play MMOs for the Forum PVP
What they sell isn't nearly as much of a concern as how they sell it.
Some things really shouldn't be sold, but with some creativity or proper valuation, there is a lot of flexibility. I think the real issue is how it is sold, I've seen games like Atlantica sell boxes which gamble your money for a chance to get the advertised mount.
Gambling with money for digital merchandise > Absolutely unacceptable.
There are many other ways to sell things in an unacceptable manner, and some of them are just not condusive to good gameplay, like buying exp and levels... you'd rather pay money than play the game apparently, that's not reasonable...
But even if it's classes and races or character slots, it's not so much whether you charge, it's more how much you charge.
For instance, Horizons only allows you to play humans for free, but there are a lot of unique and attractive races in the game, it's OK to charge to play them, but nailing a $10-$15 subscription on an extremely dated and checkered game is not acceptable, playable dragons or not, it's not acceptable, if they charged you $5 flat for each race you unlocked, that may pass, $20 to play dragons, it could work, but double digits a month to play dragons in a game that looks worse than FFVII in the graphics department... that's just nonsense.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Nah