first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!
Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.
Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression?
Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.
And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner.
For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.
Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?
first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.
How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.
To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.
Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.
The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players.
haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.
absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.
absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.
both models have the capacity to be good and bad, and both have their niches. CU is going to be p2p, and i'm sure it will do quite well in its audience. but you emphasize my main point, and that is that both models are capable of ending up nickel and diming the player. EvE is an excellent counter-example to WoW's box+sub+expac trend.
As opposed to a game purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month, or putting in a bunch of things that slow down your levelling or combat just to get you to sub another month.
Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.
MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.
Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.
MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.
The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectivelyreasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.
In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.
One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.
To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.
Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.
This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.
As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.
IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.
Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.
The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount. Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it. When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique. I will never play that way again.
Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.
That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.
That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.
Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?
What exactly were you expecting?
Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.
There's plenty to say about the issues with F2P and why they're not the cat's meow so many want to believe they are (though more and more are starting to come around to realizing that as well). Unfortunately, I have to get to work (yay Monday), so that'll have to wait for a later post.
Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.
Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer. I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be. I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time. Please do not make assumptions.
MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.
Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.
MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.
Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer. I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be. I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time. Please do not make assumptions.
The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectivelyreasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.
No. See above.
In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.
No. See above
One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.
No. See above
To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.
I have no problem with paying for an MMO. The payment model, b2p, f2p or p2p I could care less about. I object to things being put in the way just to make things take longer. The OP talked about f2p being like that, well p2p was/did the exact same thing.
Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.
This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.
Same with f2p mmo's. If they aren't enjoying the game in the first place, they won't stick around to buy something in the market.
As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.
No. I don't believe MMO"s are supposed to be anything other than entertainment. Anything they are supposed to be is simply your interpretation.
IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.
Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.
The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount. Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it. When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique. I will never play that way again.
Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.
I have never grinded straight on for anything, excpt that mount. I have very involved in crafting, at that time I was not working the AA. I di not spend a single coin on anything. By the time I hit 40 after several months of game play (I am slow) I had about 30 gold.
That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.
And it was seriously boring. It was not how I played the game to that point, not how I chose to play the game after that point.
That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.
Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?
What exactly were you expecting?
Hmm I guess you don't understand the intrinsic sense of satisfaction that often comes with doing something that is either difficult or time-consuming. Getting that mount did neither.
It was not fun, and did not give a sense of achievement. In effect it was a waste of my entertainment time, hence why I will never do that again.
Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.
No. I have no expectations of an MMO other than entertaining me. That is the only purpose.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses.
See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make money in order to stay afloat.
The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price.
With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!
Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
I agree
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
I could not disagree more.
Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.
Originally posted by michniewicz Im sick of it. ... I dont ever want to touch a game with a cash shop or anythign close to it , AGAIN. That includes Guild Wars 2.
Lots of us feel the same.
Originally posted by Yaevindusk MMOs today are just giant cash grabs. To get some while the gettin's good. ..."newblood" are being trained to enjoy micro transactions......it is very easy to "train" a crowd to accept something by the next generation. ...
Brilliant post, and I'm highlighting a few points, above, with which I agree 100%.
Originally posted by Yaevindusk ...Ultima Online people were set against paying monthly fees.
Was UO was B2P? Can't remember back to 1998 when I spent a few hours trying out UO.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Cash shops just made it worse. MMOs were ruined a long time ago for many reasons such as publishers catering to investors instead of gamers and developers rehashing the same old concepts because it is the easier thing to do. God forbid devs actually put some heart and soul into there vision when thinking of what types of games are good to make. Only games that may have potential to save the mmo genre is Blizzard new mmo and Richard Garriot's Shroud of the Avatar.
Originally posted by RizelStar Holy shit where can I download this Far Cry 3 MMO?
Uh way to miss the point, which is that gameplay design choices that wouldnt be tolerated in a buy the box game are tolerated in mmo's.
Well to be fair to mmo devs, they need to try and keep you in the game as long as possible so you don't outpace the content, which still happens no matter how hard they try. While boxed games are "usually" one stop shopping, although now a days, with downloadable content, single player games are trying to screw you too.
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses.
See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make money in order to stay afloat.
The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price.
With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!
Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
I agree
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
I could not disagree more.
Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.
1. Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.
2. Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different. I don't. I see many of the exact same features just sped up.
There has been very little change in the market since 2000.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Well, what do you expect? A year or so ago people were on here screaming about how P2P is "old" and the new, brighter future for MMOs is going to be B2P and F2P with cash shops. I remember the GW2 fanatics on this forum screaming P2P is DEAD!!! LONG LIVE F2P!!
Little did they know they were killing their own videogames.
Cash shops have ruined MMOs, absolutely - especially the ones where they slow down progression in order to force to you buy from the shop. Its sickening and ruins the point of gaming. Since where did gaming become about progression?
Older MMOS were about community, socialization, role playing and exploration. They were not virtual stat treadmills were it was all about increasing some sheet of numbers. Even PvP games like DAOC had a very strong roleplaying base and community where you were not pressured into increasing the power of your character.
And this cash shop is not only MMOs now. What about phone games. I just got a real smartphone, and I've been playing some of the F2P games on here. Its just like MMOs - you are pretty much forced to buy power up items from their cash shop in order to progress in the game. Its sickening and you would actually end up paying MORE in the cash shop for these games then paying the money up front to buy the game in a traditional manner.
For example, I tried out this game called "Inotia 4". An action-rpg style game where 2-3 hours into the game, the game becomes unbearably difficult and you have to prettymuch buy from the cash shop in order to survive, and these items are EXPENSIVE! We're talking 3-4$ for one sword. ONE SWORD. Really? One sword that will become obsolete in another hour or so of gamplay. Unbelievable.
Just imagine Diablo with a cash shop. Sound fun to you?
first off: they do that in p2p games to get naother month's sub out of you. sorry to bust your bubble. p2p games are just as vulnerable to greed as any f2p. look at WoW. box fee, $15/month, plus expansions (another box fee) every year or so. add in a skinner box to keep you addicted, and random junk to slow you up and keep you paying. yeah. that's just great right there.
How is publishing content greedy? What do you expect - what do you want? People need to be paid for their time,one way or another. People put hard spent time in making these expansions for WoW, they need to be paid for their time.
To get you addicted? What ever happened to personal accountability. YOU GOT YOURSELF ADDICTED! If you cant handle playing games and handle your time, THEN DONT PLAY! Its a problem with the player, not the game.
Its your fault for playing a game like WoW. Its was pretty obvious to me that when WoW released WOTLK that it was an endless gear grind. It was your choice to keep on playing. Period. End of story. Gear score? How could anyone put up with that nonsense is beyond me.
The bottom line is that people need to be paid and your vendetta against P2P is absurd. The big difference between P2P and F2P is that P2P makes it much more difficult for developers to exploit players. A cash shop makes it *very* easy for developers to exploit players.
haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.
absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.
No I'm not.
Once again I said this before and I'll say it again: with P2P you are getting the garunteed full game.
With Cash shop you are not. You have no idea how much you will have to spend to stay competitive. And that's the problem. You will probably end up paying more to stay competitive and more for the full game then if you are playing a P2P game!
How is 10-15 a month ridiculous sub prices? These are reasonable and its always been that way.
In fact I cant believe I am defending P2P. It should be obvious. Cash shops also ruin immersion. So you got the Holy Sword of Destruction by paying $20 in the cash shop?
How is P2P not a good pay model? If a game is good, people will pay for it. End of story. We have 10 years of WoW that will attest for that! With a F2P game, these games usually degrade in quality, like SWTOR. Let's travel over to the SWTOR forums. Whats the biggest thread? People complaining about players running around in exploited, bugged nude armor?
And tell me, are these F2P games all that great? Let's go to a well established F2P game. Runes of Magic. Let's go over to their forum. Do the players seem happy? Most people said once cash shop hit the game, it started to suck. Go ahead and read!
Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.
my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.
Hmm well the original model was pay per hour.
P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular. MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.
However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.
However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
How is P2P not a good pay model? If a game is good, people will pay for it. End of story. We have 10 years of WoW that will attest for that! With a F2P game, these games usually degrade in quality, like SWTOR. Let's travel over to the SWTOR forums. Whats the biggest thread? People complaining about players running around in exploited, bugged nude armor?
no offtense but WOW is no sacred cow -- with its Cash shop mounts and pets
I call that double dipping: paying a sub and having a Cash shop
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses.
See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make money in order to stay afloat.
The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price.
With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!
Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
I agree
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
I could not disagree more.
Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.
1. Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.
Oh come on, give me a break!
2. Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different. I don't. I see many of the exact same features just sped up.
There has been very little change in the market since 2000.
Let's be reasonable here, I think anyone is going to agree that you are not going to have the same crowd playing WoW and Darkfall. They attract different crowds.
I agree cash shops and these varied models have ruined pc gaming. Thats why im out of it. Once you get a feel for what it takes to play these games, time and money, hey by all means if your into giving that away go ahead. It's not appealing to me.
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses.
See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make money in order to stay afloat.
The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price.
With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!
Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
I agree
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
I could not disagree more.
Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.
1. Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.
Oh come on, give me a break!
2. Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different. I don't. I see many of the exact same features just sped up.
There has been very little change in the market since 2000.
Let's be reasonable here, I think anyone is going to agree that you are not going to have the same crowd playing WoW and Darkfall. They attract different crowds.
For the majority you are probably right, but if you don't think there is a lot of crossover you mistaken
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.
my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.
Hmm well the original model was pay per hour.
P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular. MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.
However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.
However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time.
i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless
Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.
These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.
Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.
Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games
haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion"..
There is clearly a difference in what you are typically buying in an expansion and what a cash shop continously tries to manipulate you into buying.
Expacks typically deliver playable game, and usually a lot of it.
Cash shops sell gambling lockboxes and instant 'rewards' (the same rewards that you once had to play for).
As a gamer I prefer to buy an expack to learn, explore, and generally play through for it's rewards then impulse buy a new hat as a self granted instant reward. So yes, put everything into an expansion and charge me for it, alongside the content to beat to earn it.
The OP is right generally. Cash shops are actually anti-game and bring nothing good to MMORPGs (unless you are one of the transient three games at once but won't spend a penny player base or a shareholder who will rake in the extra revenue squeezed from the weak and gulliable).
Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.
my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.
Hmm well the original model was pay per hour.
P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular. MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.
However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.
However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time.
i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless
Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.
These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.
Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.
Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games
Your points could be considered true if it wasn't for the fact that they are retaining the same amount of players as games of old. Between 50k and 500k. Nothing has changed in that regard. Approximately that many people stuck with old games, approximately that many people stick with new games.
I didn't mention anything about them being businesses and need to make money - red herring argument.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Yes, how they achieve it is their problem. If a f2p game slows me down and it's still fun I don't care, same with a p2p.
The point was there was no difference there between a f2p and p2p in terms of them putting in roadblocks like that.
That is until your friends by those experience boosters and are at end game, but you are still leveling. I guess there is always the possibility that you play all MMOs solo, but that always brings the question, why do you play MMOs?
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
Well the way that you described WoW, sounds like many of the people hating the model that WoW uses.
See once again this stems from the notion that there is some sort of "greed" factor. But I wouldnt call it greed, these companies need to make money in order to stay afloat.
The main different between a cash shop and a P2P model is that with P2P you are garunteed the full game for a set price.
With a cash shop, you can exploit the playerbase much more. You are not giving the full game with a cash shop game, especially if its P2W. Its unclear how much money you are going to spend in order to play the full game and be competitive!
Once again I will use Inotia 4 as an example. This is a single player action-rpg and I estimate in order to stay competitive throughout the entire game I would have spent an easy 50$ in the cash shop - 5 times as much as the average game in the Android store!.
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
I agree
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
I could not disagree more.
Tell me, if you are running a strip club, what kind of patrons do you have in your facility? Now are you going to have the same patrons coming to a kid's playground? I think not. The same goes for games. You are not going to have the same community in a themepark rpg game then in FFA PvP Darkfall.
personally, i enjoy the freedom which f2p grants me. since i am allowed to determine how much, or how little, i want to spend on the game i feel less like i am wasting money if i want to stop playing. that said, i also enjoy having the full game open to me, since there are often content gates like in LotRO or DDO in f2p games, which is why i like b2p games a lot. GW2 has an excellent model right now in my opinion. and because i enjoy their game and their model, and because i want to support them, i give them $10 when i can afford it. on the flip side of the coin, no, i am not a fan of WoW, either in terms of its mechanics or its pay style (i.e. box+sub+expac+cash shop). whether it is actually motivated by greed... i have no idea. it certainly comes off that way though. EvE is an excellent example of p2p done right in my opinion.
nice to see we agree on something.
and for the final point, i believe you misunderstood me. i was talking about how player's approach the game, as opposed to the kind of activities they engage in. grinds and the like only occur if the players allow them to. that is, if it takes x to get to level y, the player can either mess around, do x when they feel like it, and get to y later without grinding, or they can do x until y and have... grinded? ground? so what i was saying is you can either enjoy the game as you want to, on your terms, or you can go hardcore at it. player attitude essentially, and it is this attitude to which i am referring.
Yes, how they achieve it is their problem. If a f2p game slows me down and it's still fun I don't care, same with a p2p.
The point was there was no difference there between a f2p and p2p in terms of them putting in roadblocks like that.
That is until your friends by those experience boosters and are at end game, but you are still leveling. I guess there is always the possibility that you play all MMOs solo, but that always brings the question, why do you play MMOs?
The why do you play MMO's if you solo has been answered so many times anyone still asking it is just trolling.
edit - and if I enjoy the leveling I don't care if friends pass me. If I don't enjoy the leveling, xp boosters won't change that. I won't play the game.
edit -end game means nothing to me. Never made it there in any game ever anyway.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
alrighty then.
first off, nowhere in my post did i suggest or give evidence to a "vendetta against P2P..." i was merely pointing out the fact, which many people seem happy to ignore in fits of partisanship, that p2p game sare just as vulnerable to greed as f2p. both models are simply ways to get money, and some people will, and have, innevitably abused them. also addiction, in many cases, goes a little beyond personal accountability. while it is certainly the player's fault for spending money on a cahs shop, the compulsion to play goes well beyond will. just ask a smoker or alcoholic.
which leads me to your second point: if one buys from a cash shop, one can only blame oneself. your desire to have it be cosmetic is understandable, and is one which i share, but even if it is, buying something from it is on the purchaser. if someone buys something from a cash shop in a p2w game, they don't get to complain about how awful p2w games are.
lastly, i will concede that you may have more experience in older games than me. however. the community you encounter is created by one thing: the people. i have found the same types of players you remember in every game i have ever played. most lately in gw2. sure there are some people who are just rushing content, and who demand certain specs from the people they play with, but i have also seen level 80s help out newbies, and people laugh off a party wipe. and that's in a dreaded b2p game with a cash shop. so yeah. it's the people not the game, and people always have a choice on how they want to play.
haha, so now you're saying they should charge you everything they come up with and label it as "expansion".. EVE is doing it right and since you're paying monthly sub you get free expansions. You're just being contradictory and you're saying it's a good thing they milk you out with redicolous sub prices but when a B2P or F2P game asks for 5$ trough a cash shop it's suddenly greedy and your rampage greed alert goes ballistic.
absurd is the fact that some people won't realise how P2P isn't a good pay model if you want to keep your newly published game alive in todays market, and not to mention it can bring a lot more profit if implemented the right way.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
both models have the capacity to be good and bad, and both have their niches. CU is going to be p2p, and i'm sure it will do quite well in its audience. but you emphasize my main point, and that is that both models are capable of ending up nickel and diming the player. EvE is an excellent counter-example to WoW's box+sub+expac trend.
Except they don't do that. Especially these days. You simply have the wrong understanding of what MMO is supposed to be...as do many, many others.
Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer. I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be. I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time. Please do not make assumptions.
MMOs are, at their core, intended to be on-going hobbies, not short-term games. Just as you would have to pay money to go golfing every week, or bowling, or fishing or any other hobby you participate in, playing a long-term MMO has an upkeep cost - and they are hobbies, hence the emphasis on that word.
Complaining that sub-based MMOs are "purposely being made slow to get you to pay another month" is completely missing the point, and illustrates a few things you seem to misunderstand about them.
MMOs are supposed to be long-term games, by design. Complaining that MMOs are "dragged out deliberately" - aside from being completely cynical and completely missing the point of them - is like complaining that motorcycles have no windows you can roll up to keep the wind from blowing on you while you're riding. You're complaining about something being exactly what and how it's supposed to be.
Many old MMO's did do just that for the reason of getting you to play longer. I never stated or implied anything of what an MMO is or is not supposed to be. I personally do not believe what an MMO is supposed to be has anything to do with time. Please do not make assumptions.
The problem isn't that MMOs are "long and drawn out" (as you describe them), but what you're expecting them to be. You, through your arguments/complaints, seem to expect them to be fast-paced, short-term stints where anything you want can be yours very quickly (evidenced by your complaint about mounts later in your post), and be through them in a time that's subjectively reasonable to you (intended emphasis on that last bit, because it's an important distinction). And that's just not what they are, nor have they ever been.
No. See above.
In short, you're trying to force a square peg (what you expect MMOs to be) into a round hole (what they actually are), and then blaming the hole for being the wrong shape.
No. See above
One of the major distinctions of MMOs that sets them apart from other genres, is that they are long-term hobbies to be participated in over time - over months or even years. They're not short-term games to be "finished" and set aside. This is why they continuously release content updates, expansion packs and so on. The idea is that, so long as the developers/designers can continue to provide enough content that players enjoy and want to stick around to participate in, along with the community and such that comes with it, that they'll continue to earn a sub fee, and be able to stay in business.
No. See above
To revisit a point I made earlier, like (m)any other long-term hobbies, MMOs have a cost associated with them. You like golfing every weekend? Think that's free? Bowling? Fishing? Going to the movies? Collecting games/movies/cards/etc? Flying? Visiting an arcade? Etc. etc. etc? All of those are hobbies, and they all have associated costs to continuously participate in. MMOs are the same way. The only difference is, compared to all those other hobbies, MMOs are much, much cheaper in the long-run.
I have no problem with paying for an MMO. The payment model, b2p, f2p or p2p I could care less about. I object to things being put in the way just to make things take longer. The OP talked about f2p being like that, well p2p was/did the exact same thing.
Sub-based MMOs are designed around the idea of keeping people entertained and engaged in the game enough to make that sub fee seem worthwhile month after month, so they'll keep playing. They have to earn that sub fee, 30/31 days at a time. No easy task.
This is what makes your argument about "dragging it out so people have to pay another month" flawed and rather short-sighted. If players aren't enjoying the game enough to stick around in the first place, the developer isn't getting another penny from them, no matter what their intentions are.
Same with f2p mmo's. If they aren't enjoying the game in the first place, they won't stick around to buy something in the market.
As with many, your arguments/complaints about sub-based MMOs are very much rooted in a fundamental misunderstanding of what they are, what they've always been, and how they're intended to be played/experienced.
No. I don't believe MMO"s are supposed to be anything other than entertainment. Anything they are supposed to be is simply your interpretation.
IMO there are a number of f2p games that are better than many p2p games now.
Glad you said "IMO", because that's an entirely subjective remark.
The first time I played WoW it took me a solid week of farming to get the 100 gold needed to get a mount. Completely unfun, but the rest of the game was fun so I kept at it. When I did get the mount there was no sense of achievement, nothing special or unique. I will never play that way again.
Well, for one... that it took you a week of farming tells me that it had a lot to do with your choice of activities. I know people who had more than enought o buy a mount by the time they reached the level where they could get one. Where you grinding head-on, straight through the levels, without taking time to do other things... such as crafting or harvesting or trying to work the AH, etc? If so, then that's likely why you found you had to farm for a week.
I have never grinded straight on for anything, excpt that mount. I have very involved in crafting, at that time I was not working the AA. I di not spend a single coin on anything. By the time I hit 40 after several months of game play (I am slow) I had about 30 gold.
That said... A week to get enough money to get something that's going to benefit you for the rest of your time playing (which is , again, ideally months or years.. not days or weeks), is a worthy time investment. And it didn't cost you a single dime more out of your RL wallet to get. You earned that money by playing the game.
And it was seriously boring. It was not how I played the game to that point, not how I chose to play the game after that point.
That you didn't find any sense of achievement in getting the mount makes me curious. What were you expecting? Fan-faire? Parades in your name? I don't get it. You earned the money for a mount, you successfully obtained a mount. Mission accomplished.
Do they throw you parties and erect statues of you when you buy mounts from a cash shop in F2P MMOs?
What exactly were you expecting?
Hmm I guess you don't understand the intrinsic sense of satisfaction that often comes with doing something that is either difficult or time-consuming. Getting that mount did neither.
It was not fun, and did not give a sense of achievement. In effect it was a waste of my entertainment time, hence why I will never do that again.
Again, this comes back to it not being a problem with the game's design, but with expectations you had for it, and assumed (or even demanded) be met.
No. I have no expectations of an MMO other than entertaining me. That is the only purpose.
Lots of us feel the same.
Brilliant post, and I'm highlighting a few points, above, with which I agree 100%.
Was UO was B2P? Can't remember back to 1998 when I spent a few hours trying out UO.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Cash shops just made it worse. MMOs were ruined a long time ago for many reasons such as publishers catering to investors instead of gamers and developers rehashing the same old concepts because it is the easier thing to do. God forbid devs actually put some heart and soul into there vision when thinking of what types of games are good to make. Only games that may have potential to save the mmo genre is Blizzard new mmo and Richard Garriot's Shroud of the Avatar.
Well to be fair to mmo devs, they need to try and keep you in the game as long as possible so you don't outpace the content, which still happens no matter how hard they try. While boxed games are "usually" one stop shopping, although now a days, with downloadable content, single player games are trying to screw you too.
1. Aactually likely many of the same patrons are parents and so will go to a kids playground.
2. Your analogy only makes sense if you view older games and newer games as that different. I don't. I see many of the exact same features just sped up.
There has been very little change in the market since 2000.
The original model was Subscription
then games started to suck.. real bad
now the model is f2p or b2p
MMO's still suck real bad
Cash shops went crazy the day world of warcraft sold a mount to 10 million people for 15 or 20 bucks.
my numbers could be wrong but i do remember the moment.
No I'm not.
Once again I said this before and I'll say it again: with P2P you are getting the garunteed full game.
With Cash shop you are not. You have no idea how much you will have to spend to stay competitive. And that's the problem. You will probably end up paying more to stay competitive and more for the full game then if you are playing a P2P game!
How is 10-15 a month ridiculous sub prices? These are reasonable and its always been that way.
In fact I cant believe I am defending P2P. It should be obvious. Cash shops also ruin immersion. So you got the Holy Sword of Destruction by paying $20 in the cash shop?
How is P2P not a good pay model? If a game is good, people will pay for it. End of story. We have 10 years of WoW that will attest for that! With a F2P game, these games usually degrade in quality, like SWTOR. Let's travel over to the SWTOR forums. Whats the biggest thread? People complaining about players running around in exploited, bugged nude armor?
And tell me, are these F2P games all that great? Let's go to a well established F2P game. Runes of Magic. Let's go over to their forum. Do the players seem happy? Most people said once cash shop hit the game, it started to suck. Go ahead and read!
Hmm well the original model was pay per hour.
P2p and f2p emerged at about the same time but p2p became more popular. MMo's have always had a large percentage of people who think they suck.
However today there are hundreds of MMO's which likely has a lot of influence in why it's hard to retain customers.
However I do believe new games have just as much longevity as old games and have/will old roughly the same size audience as old games for the same amount of time.
no offtense but WOW is no sacred cow -- with its Cash shop mounts and pets
I call that double dipping: paying a sub and having a Cash shop
EQ2 fan sites
Is there a pure p2p game left on the market today at all?
For the majority you are probably right, but if you don't think there is a lot of crossover you mistaken
theres a few but not many
I believe Warhammer and Asherons Call are sub games w no cash shop, maybe DAOC too?
EQ2 fan sites
i started on ultima so p2p was "my original model" .. regardless
Just because there are a lot of MMO's is no excuse as to why people arent sticking to one.. when 80% of them are all the same anyway. why play the copy of the copy when you could play the original.
These games today arent built for longevity at all.. They're built for tourism.. come in, see the sights, visit the gift shop and gtfo.
Thats why there are so many. Spinning a web hoping to catch the money falling out of the sky.
Who cares if they're business and need to make money.. i play games
There is clearly a difference in what you are typically buying in an expansion and what a cash shop continously tries to manipulate you into buying.
Expacks typically deliver playable game, and usually a lot of it.
Cash shops sell gambling lockboxes and instant 'rewards' (the same rewards that you once had to play for).
As a gamer I prefer to buy an expack to learn, explore, and generally play through for it's rewards then impulse buy a new hat as a self granted instant reward. So yes, put everything into an expansion and charge me for it, alongside the content to beat to earn it.
The OP is right generally. Cash shops are actually anti-game and bring nothing good to MMORPGs (unless you are one of the transient three games at once but won't spend a penny player base or a shareholder who will rake in the extra revenue squeezed from the weak and gulliable).
Your points could be considered true if it wasn't for the fact that they are retaining the same amount of players as games of old. Between 50k and 500k. Nothing has changed in that regard. Approximately that many people stuck with old games, approximately that many people stick with new games.
I didn't mention anything about them being businesses and need to make money - red herring argument.
That is until your friends by those experience boosters and are at end game, but you are still leveling. I guess there is always the possibility that you play all MMOs solo, but that always brings the question, why do you play MMOs?
personally, i enjoy the freedom which f2p grants me. since i am allowed to determine how much, or how little, i want to spend on the game i feel less like i am wasting money if i want to stop playing. that said, i also enjoy having the full game open to me, since there are often content gates like in LotRO or DDO in f2p games, which is why i like b2p games a lot. GW2 has an excellent model right now in my opinion. and because i enjoy their game and their model, and because i want to support them, i give them $10 when i can afford it. on the flip side of the coin, no, i am not a fan of WoW, either in terms of its mechanics or its pay style (i.e. box+sub+expac+cash shop). whether it is actually motivated by greed... i have no idea. it certainly comes off that way though. EvE is an excellent example of p2p done right in my opinion.
nice to see we agree on something.
and for the final point, i believe you misunderstood me. i was talking about how player's approach the game, as opposed to the kind of activities they engage in. grinds and the like only occur if the players allow them to. that is, if it takes x to get to level y, the player can either mess around, do x when they feel like it, and get to y later without grinding, or they can do x until y and have... grinded? ground? so what i was saying is you can either enjoy the game as you want to, on your terms, or you can go hardcore at it. player attitude essentially, and it is this attitude to which i am referring.
The why do you play MMO's if you solo has been answered so many times anyone still asking it is just trolling.
edit - and if I enjoy the leveling I don't care if friends pass me. If I don't enjoy the leveling, xp boosters won't change that. I won't play the game.
edit -end game means nothing to me. Never made it there in any game ever anyway.