The Way the Game is Generating Hype and Released Videos look quite amazing. I have no doubt it will do well in any model they start with. From a Business standpoint, B2P (aka Secret World or GW2) with microtransactions would certainly go over well imo. But from the released info, we really have no idea.
Yet from all mmo's I gave a real chance I played GW2 for the least time and had the least fun.
I understand your feelings, but at the same time, sub/payment methods do not correlate to gameplay or enjoyment. They are totally unrelated.
Not totally unrelated. If you as dev know you will have that steady income from subs you can plan ahead. All I'm saying is that I generally trust mmo's with subs more long term than I do f2p and b2p.
And yet they have continuously released content and show no signs of slowing down. The model is pretty irrelevent as a game that is bad is just plain bad at its core and the model won't help it. B2P is a sound and perfectly justifyable model.
I personally don't trust P2P MMOs as name an MMO that started as P2P that maintained success and kept its model. Rift, if it still has a sub, is the only one that I can recall what hasn't been downgraded to B2P or F2P.
P2P I don't like as I tend to be quite busy and busier in the future and a 15 dollar sub isn't justifiable. I hope they go with the B2P route and god forbid a F2P route that are imo the kiss of death.
Yet from all mmo's I gave a real chance I played GW2 for the least time and had the least fun.
I understand your feelings, but at the same time, sub/payment methods do not correlate to gameplay or enjoyment. They are totally unrelated.
Not totally unrelated. If you as dev know you will have that steady income from subs you can plan ahead. All I'm saying is that I generally trust mmo's with subs more long term than I do f2p and b2p.
And yet they have continuously released content and show no signs of slowing down. The model is pretty irrelevent as a game that is bad is just plain bad at its core and the model won't help it. B2P is a sound and perfectly justifyable model.
I personally don't trust P2P MMOs as name an MMO that started as P2P that maintained success and kept its model. Rift, if it still has a sub, is the only one that I can recall what hasn't been downgraded to B2P or F2P.
P2P I don't like as I tend to be quite busy and busier in the future and a 15 dollar sub isn't justifiable. I hope they go with the B2P route and god forbid a F2P route that are imo the kiss of death.
I'd agree with the assertion that most anyone who believes P2P is more "reliable" is probably going off of past information on long dead payment models. The only real examples we have of B2P at the start is GW2, and that is releasing monthly content and massive changes to the world when relevent to the story or the season in real life. It's great to see it put out patches faster than every six months. This is mainly just a case of people being afraid of new ground or placing things they know (usually bad, as it goes back to sticking with what you know or rhetoric others told you) in place to explain the unknown.
There is no reason a P2P game is more "trustworthy" than a B2P or P2P game. In fact, more P2P games have shut down or converted than any F2P game in the past decade. We also cannot forget the flops that tried to pass off as P2P games such as Carpe Diem, which closed about a half year into it's life and basically just ran away with the box price money and all the monthly fees it could squeeze out of people (in addition to it's cash shop). If subscribers is a way to figure out if the game is good or not, then why is it that we see nearly every P2P game not reach acceptable income? If the answer is because they aren't great games, and one would gladly play a great game, then what of the original statement that P2P games are more trustworthy?
Let's stop beating around the bush and just say what a MMO has become in recent years. It's an all out cash grab with people wanting a piece of the pie. It has brought about a premium of $15 a month (when it was only $9 back when bandwidth was actually expensive) and micro transactions. Some are a bit more guilty of explotation than others depending on if they have the box + sub + cash shop or not. Games that aren't great will be released with P2P to get their money and milk people who would play it until they reached a point where it would be more lucrative to transition to B2P or F2P. This is actually covered in MMORPG's interview of Wildstar. That P2P is good for getting your money back early, and then going F2P. This also seems to be the general direction big titles in the last few years have "secretly" planned on doing. Is this trustworth behavior?
Also thinking of the fact that everyone has different tastes, and so a "great" game is almost impossible to get "universally" great unless you get lucky and become a cultural phenom. We need new payment models, but B2P seems to be intrinsically less volatile and or scandalous than the other two in a variety of ways. It may just be because that model has been around for as long as consoles have, minus the micro transactions to help pay for staffing and future updates. It will also be key in the future when the new generation of consoles are capable of running massive worlds and have their improved social connectivity.
We're stuck with thinking it's "only $15" a month mindsets. That we can buy a meal at a restaurant for that (and it would only last an hour) or go to the movies. This is a thought that we were led to believe over the course of the years as reasonings were given to accept renting our games. Companies look at the big picture; as an example, Square Enix said that their most financially successful game was FFXI. World of Warcraft has made tens of billions since launching. I myself have paid $3,500 on WoW alone, with a single account of mine tallying up to $1,600 (since release) for a single game.
I used to say that people such as my brother didn't understand, and that MMOs were a different beast in the gaming category. Though now I realize that he was right in calling me a fool for "renting" a game, and wasting all that time as I cannot play that game that I spent over three thousand dollars for or access the characters I worked on all these years. I believe in supporting developers, and will likely spend $15 a month regardless on aesthetics (not to mention getting something new) if I play a game, but being forced into a renting mentality and then having everything held for ransom when I've had enough was a terrible blow for me. Three thousand five hundred dollars for a game I am not allowed to play. I feel like I've rented furniture, and it doesn't feel good.
/sadface
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Still waiting for a company can show me they can produce a game with the content of WoW on a b2p model. Hell all the sub based games are failing to do so.
From all the MMOs I'Ve played and tested during the years, P2P-titles are the ones that were best.
The subscription leads to better maintenance of the games usually and it ususally has more balanced PvP aswell.
If Wildstar goes B2P or F2P from the start, then my hopes for this one are really low, when it comes to longevity and I probably won't bother playing it at all.
Allthough alot of P2P-titles have gone F2P afterwards, I got atleast some 4-6 month worth the subscription (AoC, SWTOR and TSW f.e.), before they turned into F2P-titles. And I'd rather take these enjoyable 4-6 month @ $10-15/month then wasting my time with a F2P-title.
After seven years of EvE Online with three accounts, thats my measurement, when it comes to price vs. performance vs. fun vs. longevity and to this date no other MMO has beaten EvE Online in that regard tbfh. Funnily enough WoW would be second on my list here.... now go figure.
Originally posted by Mathadar Still waiting for a company can show me they can produce a game with the content of WoW on a b2p model. Hell all the sub based games are failing to do so.
You didn't find anything on the topic because there is nothing. From what we can read Carbine simply doesn't know yet as they focus on the developement before focusing on the marketing + sales.
Originally posted by Thupli
Nothing official yet.
With it being NCSoft, I am hopeful they will go with a GW2 model of B2P with a cosmetic/vanity cash shop. I think there is a good chance of that.
I'm not sure, I still feel safer on the sub side regarding future content, patches and quality overall.
GW2 is a prime example of how an mmo can be of the highest quality in every aspect without the sub model.
Except that GW2 was derivitive garbage with no staying power...
Well if it does choose to use a sub i'd avoid buying the box in the first few months. Reason being the population is gonna drop just like any game (good or bad) at which point you can start getting really good deals on the box price.
You didn't find anything on the topic because there is nothing. From what we can read Carbine simply doesn't know yet as they focus on the developement before focusing on the marketing + sales.
Originally posted by Thupli
Nothing official yet.
With it being NCSoft, I am hopeful they will go with a GW2 model of B2P with a cosmetic/vanity cash shop. I think there is a good chance of that.
I'm not sure, I still feel safer on the sub side regarding future content, patches and quality overall.
GW2 is a prime example of how an mmo can be of the highest quality in every aspect without the sub model.
Except that GW2 was derivitive garbage with no staying power...
I still like it, and plenty of other people do too. One man's garbage is another man's ect ect
You didn't find anything on the topic because there is nothing. From what we can read Carbine simply doesn't know yet as they focus on the developement before focusing on the marketing + sales.
Originally posted by Thupli
Nothing official yet.
With it being NCSoft, I am hopeful they will go with a GW2 model of B2P with a cosmetic/vanity cash shop. I think there is a good chance of that.
I'm not sure, I still feel safer on the sub side regarding future content, patches and quality overall.
GW2 is a prime example of how an mmo can be of the highest quality in every aspect without the sub model.
Yet from all mmo's I gave a real chance I played GW2 for the least time and had the least fun.
Okay so because you had the least fun doesn't have a thing to do with the payment model.
B/S#1 reason for today.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Originally posted by JasonJ Any word on if this is going to be Subscription? B2P? Did not see a single thing about it on the official site or here about it.
Nope yet. In one of the posted vids here (maybe with TotalBiscuit) the dude politely avoid to answer it, so I guess there's no decision yet about the model, or there's one already but for marketing reasons they won't tell it too early.
I think there's no need to jump onto the guessing bandwagon for me any model will be fine, I just want to explore Nexus all over then do the settler path, and housing. But main priority on explorer path. And maybe a bit science. C'mon Carbine, go live with the game already...
f2p and b2p leads to a lack of development, lack of development leads to boredom, boredom leads to frustration, frustraion leads to stress, stress leads to the darkside.
Subscription leads to everyone knowing they are recieving full content and not being nickel and dimed, not being nickel and dimed leads to a smile, a smile leads to happyness, happyness leads to the light side.
Examples of fail b2p/f2p models that have turned pay to win or look to become that way: Aion, Tera, Neverwinter, DDO, Atlantica Online, Swtor(basically have to sub to play this fully), I mean the list goes on.
You end up spending more on on b2p and f2p titles then you would a basic subscription model because you are A: getting gated from content or classes or both. B:having to purchase from a cash shop to remain competitive. C:No game is truly free, it costs money to make games and they expect a return the difference is you can spend 15 bucks a month or...how ever much the games designers feel like thier work is worth which can lead to greed and abuse.
You didn't find anything on the topic because there is nothing. From what we can read Carbine simply doesn't know yet as they focus on the developement before focusing on the marketing + sales.
Originally posted by Thupli
Nothing official yet.
With it being NCSoft, I am hopeful they will go with a GW2 model of B2P with a cosmetic/vanity cash shop. I think there is a good chance of that.
I'm not sure, I still feel safer on the sub side regarding future content, patches and quality overall.
GW2 is a prime example of how an mmo can be of the highest quality in every aspect without the sub model.
Yet from all mmo's I gave a real chance I played GW2 for the least time and had the least fun.
Okay so because you had the least fun doesn't have a thing to do with the payment model.
B/S#1 reason for today.
Read the post he responed to. It will help you understand.
Examples of fail b2p/f2p models that have turned pay to win or look to become that way: Aion, Tera, Neverwinter, DDO, Atlantica Online, Swtor(basically have to sub to play this fully), I mean the list goes on.
i dont understand how you can include DDO in that list -- Turbine adds content at least 3 times a year
f2p and b2p leads to a lack of development, lack of development leads to boredom, boredom leads to frustration, frustraion leads to stress, stress leads to the darkside.
Subscription leads to everyone knowing they are recieving full content and not being nickel and dimed, not being nickel and dimed leads to a smile, a smile leads to happyness, happyness leads to the light side.
Examples of fail b2p/f2p models that have turned pay to win or look to become that way: Aion, Tera, Neverwinter, DDO, Atlantica Online, Swtor(basically have to sub to play this fully), I mean the list goes on.
All of those, besides Neverwinter (which comeon it doesnt even really fully "launch" until Tuesday) and Atlantica, were sub games. Having a sub didnt help them at all. The only reason they are still around for the people that DO enjoy them, is because they went F2P.
Sub is fine, I have no problem with it. But to get me to pay $15 a month or more, now adays, especially when there ARE so many other options, the game really needs to do something special.
f2p and b2p leads to a lack of development, lack of development leads to boredom, boredom leads to frustration, frustraion leads to stress, stress leads to the darkside.
Subscription leads to everyone knowing they are recieving full content and not being nickel and dimed, not being nickel and dimed leads to a smile, a smile leads to happyness, happyness leads to the light side.
Examples of fail b2p/f2p models that have turned pay to win or look to become that way: Aion, Tera, Neverwinter, DDO, Atlantica Online, Swtor(basically have to sub to play this fully), I mean the list goes on.
All of those, besides Neverwinter (which comeon it doesnt even really fully "launch" until Tuesday) and Atlantica, were sub games. Having a sub didnt help them at all. The only reason they are still around for the people that DO enjoy them, is because they went F2P.
Sub is fine, I have no problem with it. But to get me to pay $15 a month or more, now adays, especially when there ARE so many other options, the game really needs to do something special.
I can't Help but to Agree with Derros on this. Saying that a f2p and b2p game leads to a lack of development is a largely falsified staement. Or rather at this point an opinion. What it really comes down to is the developer and the budget of the money they get from the players through microtransactions. If the Publisher doesn't want to increase a games budget or reduces it after release then content will come out slower. Only three companys have donet his right in my opinion. Thats Trion, Blizzard and GW2(And I play none of their games). So it may seem at first glance that it's the payment model at fault for slow/lack of content release. But in fact leads right back at those running it.
And the Idea that paying $15 a month gives players a since of entitlement is sad. Opinion of course.
You didn't find anything on the topic because there is nothing. From what we can read Carbine simply doesn't know yet as they focus on the developement before focusing on the marketing + sales.
Originally posted by Thupli
Nothing official yet.
With it being NCSoft, I am hopeful they will go with a GW2 model of B2P with a cosmetic/vanity cash shop. I think there is a good chance of that.
I'm not sure, I still feel safer on the sub side regarding future content, patches and quality overall.
I don't get that statement, given the fact that GW2 has demolished all other MMOs in free monthly content and overall product quality. BTW, the quarterly revenue numbers have been very impressive, so the business model doesn't necassarily mean less revenue for a quality offering. (The game made over $120 million last quarter, at least $70 million of which appears to have come from cash shop revenue. That's roughly the equivalent of 1.5 million steady, paying subscribers, a lot more than WoW had in it's second post-release quarter).
GW2 has proven that the B2P business model does work and some would argue that the lack of subscription fee ensures a healthy population which in turn feeds ongoing cash shop revenue. It removes the binary decision of worthy / not worthy of recurring subscription fees, which allows people to remain connected with a game as interest and play time wax and wane over time.
Comments
Sub with free content updates(no expansions) is the best model IMO.
I absolutely loathe the sub+expansion nonsense.
And yet they have continuously released content and show no signs of slowing down. The model is pretty irrelevent as a game that is bad is just plain bad at its core and the model won't help it. B2P is a sound and perfectly justifyable model.
I personally don't trust P2P MMOs as name an MMO that started as P2P that maintained success and kept its model. Rift, if it still has a sub, is the only one that I can recall what hasn't been downgraded to B2P or F2P.
P2P I don't like as I tend to be quite busy and busier in the future and a 15 dollar sub isn't justifiable. I hope they go with the B2P route and god forbid a F2P route that are imo the kiss of death.
I'd agree with the assertion that most anyone who believes P2P is more "reliable" is probably going off of past information on long dead payment models. The only real examples we have of B2P at the start is GW2, and that is releasing monthly content and massive changes to the world when relevent to the story or the season in real life. It's great to see it put out patches faster than every six months. This is mainly just a case of people being afraid of new ground or placing things they know (usually bad, as it goes back to sticking with what you know or rhetoric others told you) in place to explain the unknown.
There is no reason a P2P game is more "trustworthy" than a B2P or P2P game. In fact, more P2P games have shut down or converted than any F2P game in the past decade. We also cannot forget the flops that tried to pass off as P2P games such as Carpe Diem, which closed about a half year into it's life and basically just ran away with the box price money and all the monthly fees it could squeeze out of people (in addition to it's cash shop). If subscribers is a way to figure out if the game is good or not, then why is it that we see nearly every P2P game not reach acceptable income? If the answer is because they aren't great games, and one would gladly play a great game, then what of the original statement that P2P games are more trustworthy?
Let's stop beating around the bush and just say what a MMO has become in recent years. It's an all out cash grab with people wanting a piece of the pie. It has brought about a premium of $15 a month (when it was only $9 back when bandwidth was actually expensive) and micro transactions. Some are a bit more guilty of explotation than others depending on if they have the box + sub + cash shop or not. Games that aren't great will be released with P2P to get their money and milk people who would play it until they reached a point where it would be more lucrative to transition to B2P or F2P. This is actually covered in MMORPG's interview of Wildstar. That P2P is good for getting your money back early, and then going F2P. This also seems to be the general direction big titles in the last few years have "secretly" planned on doing. Is this trustworth behavior?
Also thinking of the fact that everyone has different tastes, and so a "great" game is almost impossible to get "universally" great unless you get lucky and become a cultural phenom. We need new payment models, but B2P seems to be intrinsically less volatile and or scandalous than the other two in a variety of ways. It may just be because that model has been around for as long as consoles have, minus the micro transactions to help pay for staffing and future updates. It will also be key in the future when the new generation of consoles are capable of running massive worlds and have their improved social connectivity.
We're stuck with thinking it's "only $15" a month mindsets. That we can buy a meal at a restaurant for that (and it would only last an hour) or go to the movies. This is a thought that we were led to believe over the course of the years as reasonings were given to accept renting our games. Companies look at the big picture; as an example, Square Enix said that their most financially successful game was FFXI. World of Warcraft has made tens of billions since launching. I myself have paid $3,500 on WoW alone, with a single account of mine tallying up to $1,600 (since release) for a single game.
I used to say that people such as my brother didn't understand, and that MMOs were a different beast in the gaming category. Though now I realize that he was right in calling me a fool for "renting" a game, and wasting all that time as I cannot play that game that I spent over three thousand dollars for or access the characters I worked on all these years. I believe in supporting developers, and will likely spend $15 a month regardless on aesthetics (not to mention getting something new) if I play a game, but being forced into a renting mentality and then having everything held for ransom when I've had enough was a terrible blow for me. Three thousand five hundred dollars for a game I am not allowed to play. I feel like I've rented furniture, and it doesn't feel good.
/sadface
From all the MMOs I'Ve played and tested during the years, P2P-titles are the ones that were best.
The subscription leads to better maintenance of the games usually and it ususally has more balanced PvP aswell.
If Wildstar goes B2P or F2P from the start, then my hopes for this one are really low, when it comes to longevity and I probably won't bother playing it at all.
Allthough alot of P2P-titles have gone F2P afterwards, I got atleast some 4-6 month worth the subscription (AoC, SWTOR and TSW f.e.), before they turned into F2P-titles. And I'd rather take these enjoyable 4-6 month @ $10-15/month then wasting my time with a F2P-title.
After seven years of EvE Online with three accounts, thats my measurement, when it comes to price vs. performance vs. fun vs. longevity and to this date no other MMO has beaten EvE Online in that regard tbfh.
Funnily enough WoW would be second on my list here.... now go figure.
See you in 10 years.
They mentioned in a dev video the importance of having enough content to justify a subscription as being very important to them.
Im all for a Sub it prevents pay to win tactics and the whole elitest aspect of gated content and cash shops.
Except that GW2 was derivitive garbage with no staying power...
I still like it, and plenty of other people do too. One man's garbage is another man's ect ect
Okay so because you had the least fun doesn't have a thing to do with the payment model.
B/S#1 reason for today.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Nope yet. In one of the posted vids here (maybe with TotalBiscuit) the dude politely avoid to answer it, so I guess there's no decision yet about the model, or there's one already but for marketing reasons they won't tell it too early.
I think there's no need to jump onto the guessing bandwagon
for me any model will be fine, I just want to explore Nexus all over then do the settler path, and housing. But main priority on explorer path. And maybe a bit science. C'mon Carbine, go live with the game already... 
Lets do it up like yoda shall we?
f2p and b2p leads to a lack of development, lack of development leads to boredom, boredom leads to frustration, frustraion leads to stress, stress leads to the darkside.
Subscription leads to everyone knowing they are recieving full content and not being nickel and dimed, not being nickel and dimed leads to a smile, a smile leads to happyness, happyness leads to the light side.
Examples of fail b2p/f2p models that have turned pay to win or look to become that way: Aion, Tera, Neverwinter, DDO, Atlantica Online, Swtor(basically have to sub to play this fully), I mean the list goes on.
You end up spending more on on b2p and f2p titles then you would a basic subscription model because you are A: getting gated from content or classes or both. B:having to purchase from a cash shop to remain competitive. C:No game is truly free, it costs money to make games and they expect a return the difference is you can spend 15 bucks a month or...how ever much the games designers feel like thier work is worth which can lead to greed and abuse.
Read the post he responed to. It will help you understand.
i dont understand how you can include DDO in that list -- Turbine adds content at least 3 times a year
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Modules_and_updates
EQ2 fan sites
i hope its sub based,,more money to expand the game
and it also forces the devs to keep a certain standard
its not without reason, that two of the most successful mmos,wow and EVE, still are sub based
Do people still really think a sub based model is "better" and therefore makes X game better as a result?
[mod edit]
EVE is not the same type of subscription though, and it has a cash shop, as does WoW, on top of its subscription.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
All of those, besides Neverwinter (which comeon it doesnt even really fully "launch" until Tuesday) and Atlantica, were sub games. Having a sub didnt help them at all. The only reason they are still around for the people that DO enjoy them, is because they went F2P.
Sub is fine, I have no problem with it. But to get me to pay $15 a month or more, now adays, especially when there ARE so many other options, the game really needs to do something special.
I can't Help but to Agree with Derros on this. Saying that a f2p and b2p game leads to a lack of development is a largely falsified staement. Or rather at this point an opinion. What it really comes down to is the developer and the budget of the money they get from the players through microtransactions. If the Publisher doesn't want to increase a games budget or reduces it after release then content will come out slower. Only three companys have donet his right in my opinion. Thats Trion, Blizzard and GW2(And I play none of their games). So it may seem at first glance that it's the payment model at fault for slow/lack of content release. But in fact leads right back at those running it.
And the Idea that paying $15 a month gives players a since of entitlement is sad. Opinion of course.
I don't get that statement, given the fact that GW2 has demolished all other MMOs in free monthly content and overall product quality. BTW, the quarterly revenue numbers have been very impressive, so the business model doesn't necassarily mean less revenue for a quality offering. (The game made over $120 million last quarter, at least $70 million of which appears to have come from cash shop revenue. That's roughly the equivalent of 1.5 million steady, paying subscribers, a lot more than WoW had in it's second post-release quarter).
GW2 has proven that the B2P business model does work and some would argue that the lack of subscription fee ensures a healthy population which in turn feeds ongoing cash shop revenue. It removes the binary decision of worthy / not worthy of recurring subscription fees, which allows people to remain connected with a game as interest and play time wax and wane over time.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
