It's not really a big deal... DDO will release and do fine.... or It will release and crash and burn... and close down like AC2 did.
Nothing we do or say will effect that...
I'm just tired of people spending their money then complaining a month later about how it was a waste in their opinon."
The DDO box isn't going say on the back "no pvp, no druids, no monk" so SOME people will cluelessly buy the game and then be pissed off... cause they were too lazy to read an FAQ. My only goal is to make that common knowledge so that the people that buy the game shouldn't be unpleasantly surprised.
Ok let me start off by saying, I have played many different MMOs. I was a beta tester for SB, SWG and FFXI. I was also a closed beta tester for Guild Wars and I was and alpha tester for WoW. In addition to all that I have played CoH for over a year, as well as EQ. EQ 2 sucked... theres no two ways about that, but I played it to my dismay. So when I speak of these games... I know them pretty well and have played them often.
I personally disagree with the OP. I'm playing the game in Beta right now and... there is a lot to be said for it. Yes, it doesn't have PvP and there is VERY limited crafting (although they are going to have crafting in the game at some point). And yes there is no player/guild housing (see note on crafting). But they currently have the game in a very good state. It is fun... a lot of people who aren't playing are complaining about not getting grps. Well, its not a problem, most of the time I will have my LFG on for less than a minute until I find a grp. And the grp will stay together for hours. The idea of grouping is much better than FFXI, WoW or EQ. So, thats not really a consern.
As for it being Guild Wars + Fees... I don't know that I agree. GW did very little for the MMO world and it is definately not of the calibur of EQ and WoW. I can really see DDO competing with the Big Boys. Although it does use instancing in cities the same... in DDO that idea is expanded 10 fold. The amount of quests and the design of those quest are not half-hearted like GW. They are well thought out. And many of them have resolutions that include not have to battle at all. GW cannot and does not offer the extent and thought that was put into DDO.
And about instancing... WoW does A LOT of instancing... and you cannot macro your way through it, like you can macro your way through levels in SWG. I would love to see some idiot try to macro their way through VC, Gnome or SM. It would be even funnier to see them try some of the other high-end ones like MC or Ony. It just doesn't happen. DDO is the same way. A lot of the instances have traps and if you are not a Rogue/Bard/Ranger you would be screwed. Not to mention the AI in the game is not stupid. They see you coming... and will run to get more friends... and if you run after them... its more likely you will die. I hate to say something is impossible... but... pretty much. And after a while (the 3rd time) it is not worth it to do the same instance over again. You would get no xp for it. AND in addition to all that it takes 5 mins for an instance to reset to do it over. So you wouldn't only have to macro the instance... you would have to macro the entire city. GL on that one.
Anyway, I highly recommend that people reserve judgement until they play it. WoW got a lot of heat before it was released... then people played it and got hooked. I feel DDO has that same chance if they keep to their guns and don't go sideways with the developement. Really, bug-wise, WoW was one of the best games I played in alpha and beta. All the way through we got games that were leaps and bounds cleaner than other games like SB and SWG (even in release). DDO is not that good as WoW but it is very close to it.
/fanboi off
--- Bartle Test Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 66.67%
first off, thank you boommer99. you said everything that was going through my head. i play WoW, and i remember hearing all the flak it was getting before it released. i used to play SWG (until the combat upgrade ruined it) and it was a fun game at the very begining and slowly began a downward spiral. i figure, if a game starts out good, it will fail. and if it gets flak before it is even released by people who know nothing of its story, it will flourish.
"Well, I woke up this morning and I wasn't dead. I suppose that means it's a good day."
I think the gamer community is probably the most demanding and critical community around. We love to hate what we love.
Right now I am in like with DDO. There are 2 or 3 things that are major issues but other than that it is shaping up to be a really good game. Next week people will see that with the stress test. And Turbine will understand the complaints of the beta testers are real when all of the stress testers say the same thing we have been saying (the game starts too slow. I can't say more without breaking the NDA). Once they fix that, it will be a definate contender.
--- Bartle Test Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 66.67%
I have to agree with you, boommer, but then I'm not a PnP player... in fact, I've never played a PnP game in my life. I think the D&D fans, and from what I have seen - they can be almost militant, will do their best to keep the developers on track. If they stray too far, they'll might lose a large number of potential customers. It seems to me that Turbine are trying their best to develop the game to appeal to wide audience and still hold true to the rules that the game that's inspired it. From most of the reaction I've seen so far, they're not doing a bad job of it. I can say from the beta boards, Turbine seems very interested in everything people have to say. It looks as if they are relying quite a bit on fans of the PnP game... a good thing, in my opinion.
DDO might end up being a niche game, to some extent... but there do seem to be a lot of D&D fans. Personally, looking at the numbers WoW has... nearly every game could end up being a niche game!
I am worried when I hear that there will be a LIVE ACTION COMBAT -> with all those lags in the net nowadays... I can imagine that in the Beta it is all going well and smooth - but well it is a BETA. I am also worried about instanced zones as I know how hard it is to gather a group to go through instances in other highly populated games I am subsribed to. I am also sure that lack of PvP/RvR contest will not lure much of the "player base" - face it or not but nowadays ppl LIKE to fight against a human-controled toon, and games that do not have it - just pass away ...
i,ve benn a PnP player for some tmie now. and i would really lice to see an instanced game that wasnt impossibly to solo the whole thing. adjusting the difficulty for how many players are actually in group would be a great improvement over gw.
The difference between DDO and other MMORPGs is GAMEPLAY. DDO is fun to play. Remember that? Games that are fun to play? Fun in the sense that it's interesting and challenging to do anything, as opposed to fun in the sense of "when I get to next level after 3 more hours of this absolutely mind-numbing combat it'll be fun."
Every other MMO out there that borrows on D&D conventions has bastardized the rules and created a glossed over advancement treadmill. They're great for munchkins who can figure out the formulas, find the exploits, write the macros, and then "win." Sorry, but for me figuring out formulas, looking for exploits, and writing macros is not a fun part of the game.
DDO has real time combat that works. When I played it at Gencon I could tumble away from an attack, block a giant's stomp that made everyone else fall down, fight one or two handed or even both, and could pull mele combos. Thrown spells went straight and if they missed their target they didn't do damage. BATTLES, my friends. Remember those? It's the most memorable part of D&D and that's what I found most fun about DDO.
Guildwars? It's a nice appetizer, but DDO is the main course.
My experience with the DDO stress test so far has been really positive. They have stuck to the PnP rules in a lot of ways. It's actually nice not having to worry about killing 50 million "a small rat" to get to level 2, the instanced adventures are varied and are not simple fedex quests like most mmo's. each class has it's purposes and tends to add significantly to a party if used correctly and in my experience so far they retained a lot of the things I enjoy about pnp dnd.
I was extremely dissapointed with GW with regards to the missions. They have all these instanced areas to provide for this scripting that they wanted to have and all they use it for is simple events to advance thier generic plot. I personally expected more from that game.
DDO seems like it will actually have a storyline that will advance as time goes on, and if they can pull that off I will be sticking with it for a long time.
I don't care about the no-PVP aspect either. I'd rather have a well-executed pve game than a poorly implemented PVP/PVE game.
I have to totally disagree with the previous two posters.
The game is the worst of Guildwars, mixed in with a failed attempt to simulate PnP DnD. If you had never played or heard of Dungeons and Dragons, would you honestly think this game was something other than one of the worst MMOs to come on the scene from a major developer in years?
It's hope is to appeal to Pen n' Paper Dungeons and Dragon's fans. However, it doesn't do a very good job at being a DnD simulator.
It seems to not be with out appeal, there are a few people who are willing to look past the obvious problems, squinting really hard to find it a positive game. I will admit some things are nice. Somethings work as a good translation of the PnP game. However, it is extremely flawed at the current moment at a fundamental level.
It may be the next Matrix Online or Saga of Ryzom, a small population game with a rabid niche fan base. However, it will never be a mass appeal MMORPG. Sadly, their attempt to pretend they could be has led them to producing a game that will not even have lasting appeal for the majority of PnP DnD enthusiasts that could have provided a larger niche audience.
Originally posted by wykkid79 It's just like Ken Troop said. PvP wouldn't work in this game for the sole fact that rebalancing of character classes for it would take away the fun of PvE, which is the focus of D&D. Yes, you could attempt to backstab someone in PnP, and that's such a lame arguement. The game rules are designed around Questing, Treasure and PvE. That's exactly what they wanted to do. They're not interested in adding tons of fluff. They are making the absolute best translation of D&D to a computer game they can, making the combat itself fun and exciting, and giving fantastic dungeons to quest in. That's all. If you want a game that has crafting, a huge persistent world, some instancing but not that much, crafting and includes an element of player skill, start looking at Lord of the Rings Online. If you don't like player skill, go back to WoW.
The sad part here is that people feel classes should be balanced. life is not fair why should a game be?
also get into the beta and play a week and lets see if you still feel that way. you wont.
They wont have open beta for a period of more than 2 months because they know their game is flawed anyone who plays the full two months wont bother buying the game.
Originally posted by fiontar I have to totally disagree with the previous two posters.The game is the worst of Guildwars, mixed in with a failed attempt to simulate PnP DnD. If you had never played or heard of Dungeons and Dragons, would you honestly think this game was something other than one of the worst MMOs to come on the scene from a major developer in years?It's hope is to appeal to Pen n' Paper Dungeons and Dragon's fans. However, it doesn't do a very good job at being a DnD simulator.It seems to not be with out appeal, there are a few people who are willing to look past the obvious problems, squinting really hard to find it a positive game. I will admit some things are nice. Somethings work as a good translation of the PnP game. However, it is extremely flawed at the current moment at a fundamental level.It may be the next Matrix Online or Saga of Ryzom, a small population game with a rabid niche fan base. However, it will never be a mass appeal MMORPG. Sadly, their attempt to pretend they could be has led them to producing a game that will not even have lasting appeal for the majority of PnP DnD enthusiasts that could have provided a larger niche audience.
So you've played the beta/stress test then? How is it the worst of GW, what bad part of guildwars does it replicate? Just because it doesn't exactly follow the PnP DnD rules to a T it's just all wrong? Not every DnD is a completely anal rules lawyer when it comes to all things DnD.
Compromises have to be made when translating PnP DnD to CRPG DnD, there is no way to avoid it. Even NWN had to make a lot of compromises, as will NWN2, but the key point of making a game is to make it fun to play, and for as broad an audience as possible.
I had a great time in the stress test and I can't wait for this game to be released. FUN! If I had to pick one word to describe the game, that would be it. I've played many Pen 'N Paper games over the years, but I could care less whether this game is or isn't a "real" DnD game. It's fun to play. Isn't that what games are supposed to be?
Originally posted by Minsc So you've played the beta/stress test then? How is it the worst of GW, what bad part of guildwars does it replicate? Just because it doesn't exactly follow the PnP DnD rules to a T it's just all wrong? Not every DnD is a completely anal rules lawyer when it comes to all things DnD. Compromises have to be made when translating PnP DnD to CRPG DnD, there is no way to avoid it. Even NWN had to make a lot of compromises, as will NWN2, but the key point of making a game is to make it fun to play, and for as broad an audience as possible.
The city districts in DDO are basically the equiv. of the various hubs in GW. Slightly more filled out, but still very artificial, boring environments that do not make you feel you are experiencing a real, living fantasy world, but rather an artificial environment that strives for nothing more than to offer the minimum functionality required to support the instanced game content.
The instanced quests are the equiv. of the instanced content zones in GW. DDO adds in some interesting twists to dungeon based content missing from other MMORPGS, but the quests do nothing to make you feel you are immersed in a living fantasy world. GW does some creative things for outdoor mission based content, but once again does nothing to make you feel you are immersed in a living fantasy world.
Instanced hubs and instanced content prevent any sense that you are living and experience a virtual world and does not foster any sense of cadre with others that share your current circumstances in the world. In real MMOs, you bump into people as you go about your business and often you develop friendships with people you regularly find inhabiting the same zones as you and the people you randomly help or are helped by. Familiarity breeds social interaction which leads to friendships.
In GW and in DDO, the buildings in the hub environment might as well be empty building facades from a movie set. There are a couple places you can enter in DDO, inns and stores, but these are boring places that do little to immerse you in the game and are even more boring and dreary than the cantinas in SWG.
I would have to say that GW has better classes, combat and spell casting mechanics by far. GW could actually have been a great MMORPG if those mechanics had been placed in a real, competative and immersive game world. DDO doesn't even have that going for it.
DDO does not provide you with an immersive fantasy world. Instead of designing a creative, immersive world that PnP DnD was forced to simplify because of the constraints of the medium, the designers seem to have designed this virtual world on grid paper and consider the word, the city and it's citizens as nothing more than a bare bones support structure for instanced quests.
DDO does not provide you a fun environemnt where you can vent and escape from real world demands. In fact, it's a stressful game that had me dreading the grind after two days of testing.
DDO doesn't really provide any sense of reward and achievment. The mix of items is very limited and there is minimal difference between the best armor or weapon for your class you can afford by level 2 and the best armor or weapon for your class that you would expect to obtain at level 10. Progress in increasing character power is extremely slow and frustrating. The Action Point system just adds a ton of random abilities that don't at all make up for the lack of a sense of progress that a ten level cap provides. It also serves to blur the differences between the classes and offers ample opportunity to gimp yourself as you progress. The only sense of achievment one would feel for reaching level 10 would be that you were able to suffer through the drudgery and lack of fun long enough to get there. The achievment of a masochist.
DDO relies on the requirement for partying to force social interaction. However, the game world and instancing is totally nonconducive to meaningful social interaction. Aside from people you end up establishing as on going party partners, other players are just a random blur of who ever the servers happen to plop in your same city district instance. Go to an Inn and look around at the other players there. You may never see most of them in your same instance again or have any ability to make contacts through gradual familiarization. The social construct is the antithesis of one that would foster people's desire for natural social interaction.
DDO does put a lot of stress on group achievments through forced grouping. Because of the ways the game is not conducive to natural social interactions with other players and the nature in which players progress, the PnP grouping model is highly favored by this game. By this I mean that the most benefit and least stress will come from forming regular, established parties, with little variation in members, who will interact and party with each other. There is serious pressure to spend most of your questing time with this same group of people, because to level at a different pace will mean that you will outgrow or be left behind by your established adventuring party. This will reinforce the clique factor of established parties in this game and further discourage social interaction outside of the already established clique. Any advantage that could be gained in the realm of socialization by being based on an MMO framework is totally lost.
DDO does not foster any sense of or satisfaction from competition. Competition with members of your established group almost always leads to strife and as noted above, falling ahead or behind of the group on the leveling bell curve makes you a less desirable member of your group. Being a higher level than the others and more precisely than the level of the quest decreases the XP reward. Falling behind the group in level makes you a liability to the party. With social interactions with those outside of your group greatly trivialized, competition between groups is trivialized as well. Are you really going to feel competative with the player or group that fleetingly enters your cognizance in one instanced hub, only to vanish in the next, possibly never to be seen again for days or weeks, or to never be more than a random blip on your social radar?
DDO is a mixed bag for those that enjoy to analyse, understand and explore an MMO. On one hand, knowledge of quests and the ability to fine tune the min/maxing of equipment, abilities, feats, spells, skills and actions seems to offer a huge number of variations for those willing to create and advance many different characters. However, the drudgery of advancement, the need for established, regular adventuring parties and the fact that the world feels so completely finite and unworthy of exploration for it's own sake endermine and destroy any advantage that so many choices in character skills might offer. This is not a game that you are likely to want to replay once you have successfully navigated a character past level 5. Because of the slow, difficult progress of characters in the game and the desirability or even necessity to establish a regular group that does almost everything together, the variation offered by feats and action point choices only serves as a minefield that if not properly navigated can gimp your character. DDO offers nothing to do besides chat in an inn or quest, which also severly limits a person's ability to enjoy the exploration and understanding of new and varied things during game play.
The above are an articulation of the most prominent needs that a MMORPG fulfills. The ability of a MMO to address and then continue to fulfill these needs provides a strong foundation on which success needs to be built. The fact that DDO fails or is actively counterproductive in addressing these needs are objective reasons why I can say this game can not make it in the MMORPG market.
Could it still succeed as a DnD simulator? Perhaps. However any pretense that this game can ever be a successful competitor for the MMO market is just serving to lead to design decisions that lessen it's chances of ever succeeding in it's potential niche.
Hmm im getting so sick of forums. Never anything constructive to them. Just my game is better than yours kiddie garbage.
If you do care and want to try to help go to the offical website of the game. State your opinions to the devs there as to what a game lacks or if something is done well. Change the game to make it better. All im seeing is wows better nwn is better gw is better garbage. Games not even released. Go help the game.
some of the posters here have done and thay are being ignored over all.
take it like it is Flea.. Im sorry this is gonna be a let down because I also am a DnD fan for many many years and I was really looking forward to this game. waited for over a year to get in to beta. now I wish I had nevered downloaded the client.
Who knows, you may love this game and find much joy in it but saddly that is not the case for many of us.
I tried the stress test. I will sing a little song...
"Zone zone zone along" "Trying to find the story" "Zone into the courtyard" "Zone into the Inn" "Zone back out and grab a quest"
"Zone zone zone your way, "Gently through the game. "Happy campers all are we "Zoning all the day....
"Find out where your friend is. "Good luck to you my friend. "Call him up on the phone "Hey which instance are you in?"
"zone zone zone your way, "Gently through the game. "Happy campers all are we "Zoning all the day
"Switch to another istance "Looking for some fun "Only problem is that there "Is really none
Game graphics: A+ Animations: C Mechanics: A Combat Mode: F (This is supposed to be an RPG, not a FPS, Twitch based combat has no place in AD&D) Quests: C+ Storyline: F
Overall I might buy this game if it was a CORPG with no monthly fee. But with a monthly fee it's a joke. And NWN2 will blow it away.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online. Sig image Pending Still in: A couple Betas
Originally posted by flea1 Hmm im getting so sick of forums. Never anything constructive to them. Just my game is better than yours kiddie garbage.
If you do care and want to try to help go to the offical website of the game. State your opinions to the devs there as to what a game lacks or if something is done well. Change the game to make it better. All im seeing is wows better nwn is better gw is better garbage. Games not even released. Go help the game.
LOL
Funny you should say that. If memory serves me correctly, aren't you the dude who used to consistently trash 'Wish' on the forums here pretty much every chance you had? If so, you sure are sounding like a hypocrite...
So many people seem to be hating on DDO for what it is, and not how well it accomplished what it is.
Seriously, hating on DDO for the system it uses? You want Dungeons & Dragons Online to use the Guildwars class system? Why did you even try it, did you perhaps see some kind of erroneous interview where the developers said, 'oh yeah we totally f&#!ng burnt all the manuals and just made our own system, we don't think players really want DDO to use DnD'.
Hating on DDO for being an action-based game? Did it occur to you that the DnD system is meant to simulate real-speed combat? Does it occur also that Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights, and countless other titles in the Dungeons & Dragons universe have had realtime combat? If you want it to take an hour to kill three goblins, you should find an RL group or a chatroom group that just plays tabletop. This isn't Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the consoles, this is pretty much the entire system being implemented.
How many of you hating DDO only played it for a few hours? How much did you really get into the feel of your character in that time? Frankly I always find playing 1st level DnD characters to leave me kind of cold, even in the best NWN modules, but they always grow on me especially if I designed them with an eye toward an interesting character concept.
And hating on DDO for being a subscription-based game? It's not Guildwars. Go away. Go badmouth DDO on the GW forums, because that's about GW not DDO. You will not convert anyone with this tired argument, perhaps the zealots of the non-subscription faith believe that such a model actually benefits everyone. It doesn't. If you have any way of paying for a subscription it's the probably the best deal for your money, if you're like me and quit any MMOG within 1 - 3 weeks of purchase, subscriptions are really the best value.
Originally posted by Stromko if you're like me and quit any MMOG within 1 - 3 weeks of purchase, subscriptions are really the best value.
Hmm..that's some flawed logic. If you quit games that quickly, how is a subscription model beneficial to you? You end up quitting before you even GET to the subscription part. So no matter if the game has a fee or not, you ended up paying fifty bucks for a game you only played for a couple weeks.
Because games like Guildwars that don't have subscriptions to keep them profitable, are less expensive to purchase. MMOGs regularly fall into a pricepoint of 19.99 - 39.99, or much less, some are free to start. Guildwars is about the price of an non-bargain PC game, but it's spendier than other MMOGs.
Because games like Guildwars that don't have subscriptions to keep them profitable, are less expensive to purchase. MMOGs regularly fall into a pricepoint of 19.99 - 39.99, or much less, some are free to start. Guildwars is about the price of an non-bargain PC game, but it's spendier than other MMOGs.
Then basically you are only talking about Guild Wars when saying games with subs are more affordable for you, because as of right now, there aren't any other games like GW out there (meaning paying full PC game price for the title, but with no monthly fee). Because if you look around, most other MMOs that don't charge monthly fees, are also free to download as well (or have a low cost like ten bucks or something--never mind the fact that said games are usually crap anyhow ).
It seems to me that you have a thing against Guild Wars for some reason. I'm not exactly a fan of the game myself, but, DDO is very similar in design to GW (all instanced quests, very heavily group focused, etc.) that I find it odd that you are unwilling to see where people are drawing comparisons. And in my opinion, said comparisons become even more apparent once you actually play the game.
Comments
It's not really a big deal... DDO will release and do fine....
or
It will release and crash and burn... and close down like AC2 did.
Nothing we do or say will effect that...
I'm just tired of people spending their money then complaining a month later about how it was a waste in their opinon."
The DDO box isn't going say on the back "no pvp, no druids, no monk" so SOME people will cluelessly buy the game and then be pissed off... cause they were too lazy to read an FAQ. My only goal is to make that common knowledge so that the people that buy the game shouldn't be unpleasantly surprised.
Ok let me start off by saying, I have played many different MMOs. I was a beta tester for SB, SWG and FFXI. I was also a closed beta tester for Guild Wars and I was and alpha tester for WoW. In addition to all that I have played CoH for over a year, as well as EQ. EQ 2 sucked... theres no two ways about that, but I played it to my dismay. So when I speak of these games... I know them pretty well and have played them often.
I personally disagree with the OP. I'm playing the game in Beta right now and... there is a lot to be said for it. Yes, it doesn't have PvP and there is VERY limited crafting (although they are going to have crafting in the game at some point). And yes there is no player/guild housing (see note on crafting). But they currently have the game in a very good state. It is fun... a lot of people who aren't playing are complaining about not getting grps. Well, its not a problem, most of the time I will have my LFG on for less than a minute until I find a grp. And the grp will stay together for hours. The idea of grouping is much better than FFXI, WoW or EQ. So, thats not really a consern.
As for it being Guild Wars + Fees... I don't know that I agree. GW did very little for the MMO world and it is definately not of the calibur of EQ and WoW. I can really see DDO competing with the Big Boys. Although it does use instancing in cities the same... in DDO that idea is expanded 10 fold. The amount of quests and the design of those quest are not half-hearted like GW. They are well thought out. And many of them have resolutions that include not have to battle at all. GW cannot and does not offer the extent and thought that was put into DDO.
And about instancing... WoW does A LOT of instancing... and you cannot macro your way through it, like you can macro your way through levels in SWG. I would love to see some idiot try to macro their way through VC, Gnome or SM. It would be even funnier to see them try some of the other high-end ones like MC or Ony. It just doesn't happen. DDO is the same way. A lot of the instances have traps and if you are not a Rogue/Bard/Ranger you would be screwed. Not to mention the AI in the game is not stupid. They see you coming... and will run to get more friends... and if you run after them... its more likely you will die. I hate to say something is impossible... but... pretty much. And after a while (the 3rd time) it is not worth it to do the same instance over again. You would get no xp for it. AND in addition to all that it takes 5 mins for an instance to reset to do it over. So you wouldn't only have to macro the instance... you would have to macro the entire city. GL on that one.
Anyway, I highly recommend that people reserve judgement until they play it. WoW got a lot of heat before it was released... then people played it and got hooked. I feel DDO has that same chance if they keep to their guns and don't go sideways with the developement. Really, bug-wise, WoW was one of the best games I played in alpha and beta. All the way through we got games that were leaps and bounds cleaner than other games like SB and SWG (even in release). DDO is not that good as WoW but it is very close to it.
/fanboi off
---
Bartle Test Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 66.67%
Thanks for sticking up for me
"Well, I woke up this morning and I wasn't dead. I suppose that means it's a good day."
I think the gamer community is probably the most demanding and critical community around. We love to hate what we love.
Right now I am in like with DDO. There are 2 or 3 things that are major issues but other than that it is shaping up to be a really good game. Next week people will see that with the stress test. And Turbine will understand the complaints of the beta testers are real when all of the stress testers say the same thing we have been saying (the game starts too slow. I can't say more without breaking the NDA). Once they fix that, it will be a definate contender.
---
Bartle Test Breakdown: Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 26.67%, Socializer 66.67%
I have to agree with you, boommer, but then I'm not a PnP player... in fact, I've never played a PnP game in my life. I think the D&D fans, and from what I have seen - they can be almost militant, will do their best to keep the developers on track. If they stray too far, they'll might lose a large number of potential customers. It seems to me that Turbine are trying their best to develop the game to appeal to wide audience and still hold true to the rules that the game that's inspired it. From most of the reaction I've seen so far, they're not doing a bad job of it. I can say from the beta boards, Turbine seems very interested in everything people have to say. It looks as if they are relying quite a bit on fans of the PnP game... a good thing, in my opinion.
DDO might end up being a niche game, to some extent... but there do seem to be a lot of D&D fans. Personally, looking at the numbers WoW has... nearly every game could end up being a niche game!
I am worried when I hear that there will be a LIVE ACTION COMBAT -> with all those lags in the net nowadays... I can imagine that in the Beta it is all going well and smooth - but well it is a BETA.
I am also worried about instanced zones as I know how hard it is to gather a group to go through instances in other highly populated games I am subsribed to.
I am also sure that lack of PvP/RvR contest will not lure much of the "player base" - face it or not but nowadays ppl LIKE to fight against a human-controled toon, and games that do not have it - just pass away ...
just my 2 cc (copper coins)
i,ve benn a PnP player for some tmie now. and i would really lice to see an instanced game that wasnt impossibly to solo the whole thing. adjusting the difficulty for how many players are actually in group would be a great improvement over gw.
The difference between DDO and other MMORPGs is GAMEPLAY. DDO is fun to play. Remember that? Games that are fun to play? Fun in the sense that it's interesting and challenging to do anything, as opposed to fun in the sense of "when I get to next level after 3 more hours of this absolutely mind-numbing combat it'll be fun."
Every other MMO out there that borrows on D&D conventions has bastardized the rules and created a glossed over advancement treadmill. They're great for munchkins who can figure out the formulas, find the exploits, write the macros, and then "win." Sorry, but for me figuring out formulas, looking for exploits, and writing macros is not a fun part of the game.
DDO has real time combat that works. When I played it at Gencon I could tumble away from an attack, block a giant's stomp that made everyone else fall down, fight one or two handed or even both, and could pull mele combos. Thrown spells went straight and if they missed their target they didn't do damage. BATTLES, my friends. Remember those? It's the most memorable part of D&D and that's what I found most fun about DDO.
Guildwars? It's a nice appetizer, but DDO is the main course.
My experience with the DDO stress test so far has been really positive. They have stuck to the PnP rules in a lot of ways. It's actually nice not having to worry about killing 50 million "a small rat" to get to level 2, the instanced adventures are varied and are not simple fedex quests like most mmo's. each class has it's purposes and tends to add significantly to a party if used correctly and in my experience so far they retained a lot of the things I enjoy about pnp dnd.
I was extremely dissapointed with GW with regards to the missions. They have all these instanced areas to provide for this scripting that they wanted to have and all they use it for is simple events to advance thier generic plot. I personally expected more from that game.
DDO seems like it will actually have a storyline that will advance as time goes on, and if they can pull that off I will be sticking with it for a long time.
I don't care about the no-PVP aspect either. I'd rather have a well-executed pve game than a poorly implemented PVP/PVE game.
If I want my PVP fix I'll just play EVE
I have to totally disagree with the previous two posters.
The game is the worst of Guildwars, mixed in with a failed attempt to simulate PnP DnD. If you had never played or heard of Dungeons and Dragons, would you honestly think this game was something other than one of the worst MMOs to come on the scene from a major developer in years?
It's hope is to appeal to Pen n' Paper Dungeons and Dragon's fans. However, it doesn't do a very good job at being a DnD simulator.
It seems to not be with out appeal, there are a few people who are willing to look past the obvious problems, squinting really hard to find it a positive game. I will admit some things are nice. Somethings work as a good translation of the PnP game. However, it is extremely flawed at the current moment at a fundamental level.
It may be the next Matrix Online or Saga of Ryzom, a small population game with a rabid niche fan base. However, it will never be a mass appeal MMORPG. Sadly, their attempt to pretend they could be has led them to producing a game that will not even have lasting appeal for the majority of PnP DnD enthusiasts that could have provided a larger niche audience.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
The sad part here is that people feel classes should be balanced. life is not fair why should a game be?
also get into the beta and play a week and lets see if you still feel that way. you wont.
They wont have open beta for a period of more than 2 months because they know their game is flawed anyone who plays the full two months wont bother buying the game.
So you've played the beta/stress test then? How is it the worst of GW, what bad part of guildwars does it replicate? Just because it doesn't exactly follow the PnP DnD rules to a T it's just all wrong? Not every DnD is a completely anal rules lawyer when it comes to all things DnD.
Compromises have to be made when translating PnP DnD to CRPG DnD, there is no way to avoid it. Even NWN had to make a lot of compromises, as will NWN2, but the key point of making a game is to make it fun to play, and for as broad an audience as possible.
The city districts in DDO are basically the equiv. of the various hubs in GW. Slightly more filled out, but still very artificial, boring environments that do not make you feel you are experiencing a real, living fantasy world, but rather an artificial environment that strives for nothing more than to offer the minimum functionality required to support the instanced game content.
The instanced quests are the equiv. of the instanced content zones in GW. DDO adds in some interesting twists to dungeon based content missing from other MMORPGS, but the quests do nothing to make you feel you are immersed in a living fantasy world. GW does some creative things for outdoor mission based content, but once again does nothing to make you feel you are immersed in a living fantasy world.
Instanced hubs and instanced content prevent any sense that you are living and experience a virtual world and does not foster any sense of cadre with others that share your current circumstances in the world. In real MMOs, you bump into people as you go about your business and often you develop friendships with people you regularly find inhabiting the same zones as you and the people you randomly help or are helped by. Familiarity breeds social interaction which leads to friendships.
In GW and in DDO, the buildings in the hub environment might as well be empty building facades from a movie set. There are a couple places you can enter in DDO, inns and stores, but these are boring places that do little to immerse you in the game and are even more boring and dreary than the cantinas in SWG.
I would have to say that GW has better classes, combat and spell casting mechanics by far. GW could actually have been a great MMORPG if those mechanics had been placed in a real, competative and immersive game world. DDO doesn't even have that going for it.
DDO does not provide you with an immersive fantasy world. Instead of designing a creative, immersive world that PnP DnD was forced to simplify because of the constraints of the medium, the designers seem to have designed this virtual world on grid paper and consider the word, the city and it's citizens as nothing more than a bare bones support structure for instanced quests.
DDO does not provide you a fun environemnt where you can vent and escape from real world demands. In fact, it's a stressful game that had me dreading the grind after two days of testing.
DDO doesn't really provide any sense of reward and achievment. The mix of items is very limited and there is minimal difference between the best armor or weapon for your class you can afford by level 2 and the best armor or weapon for your class that you would expect to obtain at level 10. Progress in increasing character power is extremely slow and frustrating. The Action Point system just adds a ton of random abilities that don't at all make up for the lack of a sense of progress that a ten level cap provides. It also serves to blur the differences between the classes and offers ample opportunity to gimp yourself as you progress. The only sense of achievment one would feel for reaching level 10 would be that you were able to suffer through the drudgery and lack of fun long enough to get there. The achievment of a masochist.
DDO relies on the requirement for partying to force social interaction. However, the game world and instancing is totally nonconducive to meaningful social interaction. Aside from people you end up establishing as on going party partners, other players are just a random blur of who ever the servers happen to plop in your same city district instance. Go to an Inn and look around at the other players there. You may never see most of them in your same instance again or have any ability to make contacts through gradual familiarization. The social construct is the antithesis of one that would foster people's desire for natural social interaction.
DDO does put a lot of stress on group achievments through forced grouping. Because of the ways the game is not conducive to natural social interactions with other players and the nature in which players progress, the PnP grouping model is highly favored by this game. By this I mean that the most benefit and least stress will come from forming regular, established parties, with little variation in members, who will interact and party with each other. There is serious pressure to spend most of your questing time with this same group of people, because to level at a different pace will mean that you will outgrow or be left behind by your established adventuring party. This will reinforce the clique factor of established parties in this game and further discourage social interaction outside of the already established clique. Any advantage that could be gained in the realm of socialization by being based on an MMO framework is totally lost.
DDO does not foster any sense of or satisfaction from competition. Competition with members of your established group almost always leads to strife and as noted above, falling ahead or behind of the group on the leveling bell curve makes you a less desirable member of your group. Being a higher level than the others and more precisely than the level of the quest decreases the XP reward. Falling behind the group in level makes you a liability to the party. With social interactions with those outside of your group greatly trivialized, competition between groups is trivialized as well. Are you really going to feel competative with the player or group that fleetingly enters your cognizance in one instanced hub, only to vanish in the next, possibly never to be seen again for days or weeks, or to never be more than a random blip on your social radar?
DDO is a mixed bag for those that enjoy to analyse, understand and explore an MMO. On one hand, knowledge of quests and the ability to fine tune the min/maxing of equipment, abilities, feats, spells, skills and actions seems to offer a huge number of variations for those willing to create and advance many different characters. However, the drudgery of advancement, the need for established, regular adventuring parties and the fact that the world feels so completely finite and unworthy of exploration for it's own sake endermine and destroy any advantage that so many choices in character skills might offer. This is not a game that you are likely to want to replay once you have successfully navigated a character past level 5. Because of the slow, difficult progress of characters in the game and the desirability or even necessity to establish a regular group that does almost everything together, the variation offered by feats and action point choices only serves as a minefield that if not properly navigated can gimp your character. DDO offers nothing to do besides chat in an inn or quest, which also severly limits a person's ability to enjoy the exploration and understanding of new and varied things during game play.
The above are an articulation of the most prominent needs that a MMORPG fulfills. The ability of a MMO to address and then continue to fulfill these needs provides a strong foundation on which success needs to be built. The fact that DDO fails or is actively counterproductive in addressing these needs are objective reasons why I can say this game can not make it in the MMORPG market.
Could it still succeed as a DnD simulator? Perhaps. However any pretense that this game can ever be a successful competitor for the MMO market is just serving to lead to design decisions that lessen it's chances of ever succeeding in it's potential niche.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Hmm im getting so sick of forums. Never anything constructive to them. Just my game is better than yours kiddie garbage.
If you do care and want to try to help go to the offical website of the game. State your opinions to the devs there as to what a game lacks or if something is done well. Change the game to make it better. All im seeing is wows better nwn is better gw is better garbage. Games not even released. Go help the game.
Orky Name Generator, only at www.bigchoppaz.com
some of the posters here have done and thay are being ignored over all.
take it like it is Flea.. Im sorry this is gonna be a let down because I also am a DnD fan for many many years and I was really looking forward to this game. waited for over a year to get in to beta. now I wish I had nevered downloaded the client.
Who knows, you may love this game and find much joy in it but saddly that is not the case for many of us.
Long time D&D and AD&D PnP player.
I tried the stress test. I will sing a little song...
"Zone zone zone along"
"Trying to find the story"
"Zone into the courtyard"
"Zone into the Inn"
"Zone back out and grab a quest"
"Zone zone zone your way,
"Gently through the game.
"Happy campers all are we
"Zoning all the day....
"Find out where your friend is.
"Good luck to you my friend.
"Call him up on the phone
"Hey which instance are you in?"
"zone zone zone your way,
"Gently through the game.
"Happy campers all are we
"Zoning all the day
"Switch to another istance
"Looking for some fun
"Only problem is that there
"Is really none
Game graphics: A+
Animations: C
Mechanics: A
Combat Mode: F (This is supposed to be an RPG, not a FPS, Twitch based combat has no place in AD&D)
Quests: C+
Storyline: F
Overall I might buy this game if it was a CORPG with no monthly fee. But with a monthly fee it's a joke. And NWN2 will blow it away.
Currently Playing: Dungeons and Dragons Online.
Sig image Pending
Still in: A couple Betas
LOL
Funny you should say that. If memory serves me correctly, aren't you the dude who used to consistently trash 'Wish' on the forums here pretty much every chance you had? If so, you sure are sounding like a hypocrite...
So many people seem to be hating on DDO for what it is, and not how well it accomplished what it is.
Seriously, hating on DDO for the system it uses? You want Dungeons & Dragons Online to use the Guildwars class system? Why did you even try it, did you perhaps see some kind of erroneous interview where the developers said, 'oh yeah we totally f&#!ng burnt all the manuals and just made our own system, we don't think players really want DDO to use DnD'.
Hating on DDO for being an action-based game? Did it occur to you that the DnD system is meant to simulate real-speed combat? Does it occur also that Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights, and countless other titles in the Dungeons & Dragons universe have had realtime combat? If you want it to take an hour to kill three goblins, you should find an RL group or a chatroom group that just plays tabletop. This isn't Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance for the consoles, this is pretty much the entire system being implemented.
How many of you hating DDO only played it for a few hours? How much did you really get into the feel of your character in that time? Frankly I always find playing 1st level DnD characters to leave me kind of cold, even in the best NWN modules, but they always grow on me especially if I designed them with an eye toward an interesting character concept.
And hating on DDO for being a subscription-based game? It's not Guildwars. Go away. Go badmouth DDO on the GW forums, because that's about GW not DDO. You will not convert anyone with this tired argument, perhaps the zealots of the non-subscription faith believe that such a model actually benefits everyone. It doesn't. If you have any way of paying for a subscription it's the probably the best deal for your money, if you're like me and quit any MMOG within 1 - 3 weeks of purchase, subscriptions are really the best value.
Hmm..that's some flawed logic. If you quit games that quickly, how is a subscription model beneficial to you? You end up quitting before you even GET to the subscription part. So no matter if the game has a fee or not, you ended up paying fifty bucks for a game you only played for a couple weeks.
Because games like Guildwars that don't have subscriptions to keep them profitable, are less expensive to purchase. MMOGs regularly fall into a pricepoint of 19.99 - 39.99, or much less, some are free to start. Guildwars is about the price of an non-bargain PC game, but it's spendier than other MMOGs.
Then basically you are only talking about Guild Wars when saying games with subs are more affordable for you, because as of right now, there aren't any other games like GW out there (meaning paying full PC game price for the title, but with no monthly fee). Because if you look around, most other MMOs that don't charge monthly fees, are also free to download as well (or have a low cost like ten bucks or something--never mind the fact that said games are usually crap anyhow
).
It seems to me that you have a thing against Guild Wars for some reason. I'm not exactly a fan of the game myself, but, DDO is very similar in design to GW (all instanced quests, very heavily group focused, etc.) that I find it odd that you are unwilling to see where people are drawing comparisons. And in my opinion, said comparisons become even more apparent once you actually play the game.
I also noticed a kind of GW vrs DDO thing going on on these boards.
Personally I dont like either of them for mostly the same reasons.
DDO is a GW clone. if you dont like GW you will probably not enjoy DDO.