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IMHO, This mentality is what has killed and will continue killing MMORPG's
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I think you will find the problem stems from the vocal minority of gamers on forums who complained they couldnt progress in a game because they had chosen class XX (normally hyrbids) a class which didnt fit into the trinity of the group neither healer / dps or tank.
and so they were pushed to the edges of the gaming world to solo through the game, i remmber i rolled a bard in dark age of camelot the number 1 required class for any group. I remember people begging me not to log off or if i needed to sleep just go stand in a corner doing a certain action while i went to bed.
then i had my mate in the next room who rolled a ranger who was consigned to having to kill trees over and over and over again to level up. Noone wanted to invite the ranger because they brought nothing to the group. So while i was in groups constantly, so much so that it would litterally be 10 seconds after logging in i would get pms from people asking me to join high levle groups. He would go back to killing the same type of mobs over and over.
SO why should i complain on a forum that i dont get groups or that soloing is hard i never had to do it. SO game companies pick up that everyone should have fun and should take the same amount of time to get to this mythical "end game" so they put in quests but they made quests so good that to form the group to go out and kill monsters was actually detremental to your levleing speed.
they also made quests where by other people would actually slow you down, we all know about runing over to a flashy item to complete a quest only to find someone has beaten you too it. Or fighting through a group after gruop of mobs while someone waits till you pull the last encounter and ninja the item from under you. OR trying to kill 10 of somthing while some high level person one shots the mobs for a chance at a rare item they can sell on the auction house. So im not surprised gamers have become self centred in terms of mmos. The fact they removed down time and punished grouping up means gamers want to solo more.
@Op
I understand your point OP, but it is very VERY misplaced. BTW dont ever tell people who dont agree with you to leave MMO's or tell companies how to create thier game. You lost alot of ppl with that comment. They make or break themselves. Don't play those game which you dont agree with.
No offense but the forced grouping fanatics forget several things so let me re-interate them to you...
1. There are so many MMO's out there that the MMO population in general is very spread out. If there were just a few games then maybe you have a small point.
2. If a game is on the decline and you are forced to group with people to level up, complete objectives, get gear etc. you are left scratching your head on how to do those things when no one is around. you would then leave the mmo as you cant do things. Most games also dont allow power leveling so lower level areas will be ghostlands.
3. PUG groups to some degree dont work. Especially with large raids or groups with more than 4-5 ppl.
4. I have vent, Mumble, teamspeak, and raidcall to be sociable with my guild. I also be socialble with the random buff to passersby in an area or helping them if a beastie maybe too much for them. I come to thier aid when jumped (pvp server) if attacked by opposing faction members.
5. Bad player behavior. Who wants to be around this crap. Racist remarks, Cursing, talk of rape, belittling religions, politics, Chuck Norris jokes, cursing out other players cause you cant win in Wz's 100% of the time etc etc. No one wants or should be forced to be around idiots or juvenille behavior. If game companies attempted to do all things then they would end up pleasing no one.
We are all different op with likes and dislikes including our MMO's. The sooner you understand that the better.
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
Sorry OP, "your" genre evolved.
With all the people who like enforced grouping in MMO's I am sure that some developer will see the light and earn massive amounts of money by making a game only for the true believers.
GJ, acting like a flaming zealot, that most of us (socially unworthy) would go to great lengths to avoid any form of social interactions with :-D
BTW: Troll-class is overpowered.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
MMORPG Convoluted Birthright and Over Saturation are the biggest problems:
1. Birth Right: Everyone thinks their way , experience, leveling up was the best. Killed what came before and everything since falls short. The new fad may be great for a month or two but never lives up to what was and never will be again.
2. Over Saturation: More mmos than ever before. No matter your fancy it is out there. Yes...even those that bitch about sandbox for god's sake. You can argue the quality yet the quantity is ever growing.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Wait... In a game whose watchword is "Trust no one", where scamming newbies is considered a god given right, a game with a (well deserved) reputation for the playerbase being made up of 80% sociopaths and 20% CPAs, in that kind of game you think it's the solo players who have mental issues?
Uhhhh...
It amazes me the lengths people will to to in order to convince themselves their way is the only way.
This works both ways. People bitched and complained about a genre that was to hard and to time consuming to play. Wanting it more like there single player rpgs. What happened? The genre started to change. Turned into what you see today. A horrible mutation.
So the OPs sentements still hold water.
What you call evolved, i call MUTATED. And not the X-Men type of mutation.
I have a comment to those of you saying that some sort of vocal minority has something to do with many MMORPGs today turning into single player games:
I am afraid you are wrong. I wish you were right, but the numbers speak for themselves. Nearly every game coming out is catered to the soloist. There is no more orchestra, just lots of first fiddlers. It must mean that the MAJORITY want their games like this. Although, I suspect the majority actually dont know what it wants. The Majority is confused and tired and anti-social after long workdays. Yet they think they like MMORPGs...
Yeah thats why 90% of mmorpg's today end in failure, die off, get sold to other companies, or their developer company goes bankrupt.
Its because they are getting cheaper and still ridding WOW's coat tails instead of doing it differently or going back old school. But thankfuly many new games are actualy doing this and you will see a shift soon enough.
The first fully graphical MMO Ultima Online whole premise was exactly that (the orange highlighted part) and is the essence of a "sandbox" MMO experience. What you and others are bemoaning isn't really in the true spirit of MMO's and virtual worlds, its the Everquest mentality meaning you can only play one way to progress "group or die". Which subsequent MMO's tried to fix thus opening up the genre to millions of gamers and loads of money. And using the elite MMO meme of console gamers are a disease really doesn't bolster your argument.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Where are these 90% failed MMO's? and isn't what you describe normal business in any field. My old company was bought out by another company does that automatically mean it failed? and another internet meme "90%" its a meme fest today.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
You're missing the point. EVE is an example of a well designed game. See CCP put in aspects into that game that are great for soloers, things like crafting, mining, etc. There is a decent portion of the game where you can do mission running, but that still isnt totally safe from other players.
The problem is in games like we want to play (such as EQ1 circa 1999-2002) is things have gone totally to shit because developers are more concerned about $$$ than creating their vision of a game. CCP could make a metric FUCKTON more money if they made it so the best gear in the game could be obtained in perfectly safe solo mission runs where you had no chance in hell of getting owned by other players. I assure you their playerbase would increase by hundreds of thousands within a month of that news hitting the internet. But they dont. They say "Hey, if you like to solo play, here is what we have for you, if you dont like these options, maybe this isnt the game for you".
Instead we have games like WOW, which have a bunch of suits sitting in a meeting room saying shit like, "how can we further monetize this product?" and going, "well, if we add in a looking for raid tool, and dumb the shit down so much that a retarded cat could sleep his way through it, and then give people shinies, that should keep the morons coming back more and more!"
The problem is that none of these PVE centric games even promote grouping until end game, and even then they ony promote grouping, not socializing. Talk to any EQ1 vet and they will tell you their fondest memories are the one sitting around at their specific section of a dungeon group shooting the shit with their buddies they got to know over the last few months or year(s), etc, and killing mobs, hoping for that loot, etc. Now, you have all these tools to make it easy for people to group because god forbid they use those keyboards in front of them and interact with people.
And im sorry but anyone who tries to play the "MMORPGS dont mean forced grouping" card, are ignorant fools. The genre was CREATED specifically for that reason. CO OP play. Multiplayer came about originall in games because of PVP and COOP play. I remember the first time i dialed my modem into my buddies modem and played Doom 1 co-op, some of the most fun you'd ever had.
The reality is MMORPG's have such a large playerbase because the majority, 70% or better of the current MMO player "pie" are single player gamers who like the open world aspects of an MMO that they can't get in a single player game.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Because solo games don't have a thriving ingame market economy where I can buy items crafted by other players or sell items I do craft. Likewise with resources such as metals and wood - hundreds of players who like gathering resources selling to those who want to save time. I make more money selling to players than I would do selling to a vendor, thus other players are good!
Because solo games don't feature ingame chat that amusingly passes the time in a lull in the game. Because I can ask players, ingame, for advice or offer advice. Because of the Seasonal Events MMORPGs feature and which solo games don't. Finally, because MMORPGs these days are purpose-built for solo play, and because far too many players in MMORPGs are inarticulate, whiny, ninja-looting munchkins.
Finally, two bits of advice... Firstly, strap on a pair and criticize someone in an existing thread, and don't make one just in order to cower in and avoid them. Secondly, see that sticky at the top of the foum about solo play vs group play? Use it.
In a way I can agree. I played SWG from begining until 6 months before the end. I had 9 characters (4 accounts plus an elder jedi slot), 5 of which were crafters. I founded, funded, and built many structures for the cities on Intrepid server. I loved gathering, building, and crafting. And i did that 80% of the time. But still chose to group and adventure with others. Interaction is key in mmorpgs. To limit it and refuse its concept all together is just bad.
I can see some games being solo centric, but not all. Its getting bad.
As a combatant, i can go into battle and die. A medic/doc/cleric can be right next to me and not even bother to rez me. Thats sad. Without grouping you also limit your skill when you do have to group. Like being in a group and the healer doesnt know how to keep track of your party's health and heal up the tanks, or a ranged player wanting to be a glory hound and keeps pulling more agro than your front line can handle, or a tank that cant tank, etc...........
There needs to be both aspects in a mmorpg, not destroy one for the other which these newer games have done. So many features, so many game mechanics have been lost due to this mentality and lack of player creativity.
You nailed it.
I don't mind solo MMOs. They are a lot of fun to play, eventually they all turn out to be the same lobby/barter/token fest type of game.
The problem is that there are zero grouping MMOs like old EQ. There are about 150 or so solo MMOs. That is the problem. If there was just one great grouping, modern MMO people would be playing that and not making posts like this.
Blame the success of WOW and the utter disaster that was SWG on the massively skewed proportion.
Something else most don't seem to understand. The term "endgame" is something that should never exist in MMORPG's.
Again...endgame is for console games, that are meant to have a deliberate ending.
MMORPG's are suppose to be ever evolving and expanding endless adventures. See EQ1. STILL making expansions and has, dare I say, more content than nearly all MMORPG's put together since WoW. Although I am sure it probably doesn't.....the amount compared to the ones released today makes the modern ones look like the shallow money grabbers they are.
You weren't FORCED to group back in older MMORPG's. You could solo, it was just harder to do so...but completely possible if you had the drive and skill (Knowledge of your classes abilities). But yes...some content you had to group. That didn't make it unbearable...it made it more engrossing IMO. It's what seperated MMORPG's from other game types.
I think most players now are of the same mindset of a lot of people out in the world. They want everything for nothing...or as little effort as possible. Like all teams in a tournament getting trophies even if they didn't come out of it #1...they just participated. I don't get what sense of accomplishement and gratification can come from that myself.
Actually what killed MMOs are developers who try and copy WoWs "success," by giving us more lobby based, arena and battle-ground driven instances, boring raids and instanced dungeons. When I first started playing EQ I made a cleric. Anyone who played a Cleric in EQ back in 1999 knew you couldnt solo effectively unless it was against undead. BUT, I could run over to Unrest or Mistmoore or some camp site in a zone and join up a group or start a new one. Dungeons back then were not Instanced. I can understand a few instanced adventures, but MMOs now, its all INSTANCED. Also, the lifeless, soulless, cookie-cutter worlds have alot to do with the lackuster MMOs we have now.
Nobody did. But in his defense, he did start out his response with "now this in my opinion"
Right.... People who think differently must be sick. How didn't I think of that? Oh wait, maybe its because I know better?
Not a cool subject to joke about. You should be ashamed.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Yeah, in a seperate thread, hiding away where the guy he criticized probably won't even see it. Yep, a real forum warrior is our Wololo.
I AGREE WITH FALLENLORD.
Here is why...the days of 1999-2003 in EQ are over, where Massive Multiplayer was so new we were excited to SEE other players and interact with them in so many ways.
THEN....the a$$hats began to grow....it took so much time to weed out the a$$hats from the noobs and the good players, that we soon learned its better to JUST play with friends, our guild, or ourselves.
Other players became an annoyance as opposed to fun. The pollution of chat by children who use it to say everything they always wanted without their parents spanking them became romper room.
Frankly, no intelligent and mature player wants to see or read anything from other players as a result or even worse play with them.
This is why so many MMOs adopted instances....griefers, kill stealers and other jerks ruined everyones dungeons experience. Thus, instances insured the a$$hats would stew in their own pots.
So there you have it, the jerks, exploiters, griefers, kill stealers, a$$hats are what caused MMOs to become instanced games and most players shunning others except for close friends and guild mates.
My advice to you Wololo is to DEAL WITH IT and stop whining.
When the technology arrives that allows us to send someone else a cold pint of beer over the internet, I owe you one.
Excellent post.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre