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Hey! A sandbox MMO! Oh...its a deathmatch full loot PvP clone
TheScavenger
Member EpicPosts: 3,321
For sandbox PvE MMOs, there is very few. And I can only think of two "modern" ones. There is Ryzom (about as "old" as I would personally go)...but I still think it looks really nice. I just wish a better company owned it, but it never did do that well for whatever reason.
Very old sandbox PvE MMOs are of course Anarchy Online and Istaria, never did get into Istaria, but AO was cool for its time.
There is also Ultima Online (after they fixed PvP), but thats ancient.
Seems every new sandbox MMO is a deathmatch full loot PvP clone. Every single one. I guess EVE is most different of them all, and actually...I did a 21 day trial for it. Studied galaxy map, went to an area with null people in nullsec (see what I did there :P)...and earned enough PvEing and doing wormholes and stuff (in just a Cruiser), usually by myself (or sometimes whoever wanted to join in the newbie corp)...to never have to actually pay for a sub. It was safer there than any place in high sec, lol. Occasionally encountered others who would just warp off...
So Ryzom and EVE. Ryzom is of course a pure PvE MMO. EVE people say is more PvP, but I find tons of PvE content there. Out of the sandbox deathmatch full loot MMOs...EVE is definitely the only unique one.
But, 2 sandbox PvE MMOs...out of the many others. There is pretty much no choice. People who love PvP, get far more choice in sandbox MMOs than those who love PvE.
On the other hand...PvPers who prefer themepark MMOs have no choice at all. Even less than PvE sandboxers. But PvErs get tons of choice in themepark MMOs.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Comments
Exactly what I was getting at, though I didn't really specify that. EVE has TONS of content for both PvErs and PvPers. Ryzom less for PvP (does have outposts or something), and maybe the lack of content for PvPers didn't help. But it does offer a lot of content. But, just because its sandbox...doesn't mean that they need to be lazy and not offer content for everyone.
EVE saw that adding a lot of PvE AND PvP content was the road to success...though it did start out slow and built up over time.
Then themepark MMOs have a lot of content for PvE, but they throw in a cheap dog treat for PvPers. Which is rather the opposite problem, but about same thing. WoW did offer a lot of PvP content back before WOTLK (or was it TBC that removed PvP?)...and once they removed half the PvP, it started losing population.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Asheron's Call 1 and 2 are other options
but there is hope on the horizon, to me Istaria/Horizons could have been the greatest sandbox ever if it had the financial backing. Archeage, Black Desert, Repopulation, Origins of Malu, TESO, all have Sandboxy features.
I think the future is a mix of themepark and sandbox personally.
I have never encountered an actual sandbox MMO. All of them purporting to be such are too limited.
Each one seems to be nothing other than rebelling against an established feature in theme park games. If one theme park game has a storyline, the next game will come out announcing itself to be a sandbox because it lacks a storyline; one theme park game no full loot, the sandbox will be the next game which has full loot. Sandbox games we have experienced are simply anti-themeparks.
A true sandbox game needs to be extraordinarily diverse and complex. One game calls itself a sandbox because it emphasizes crafting--this game is a crafting MMO. One game calls itself a sandbox because, indeed, it has full loot PvP--this game I call a hardcore PvP MMO.
A true sandbox MMO would necessarily be a circumstantial experiment where the developers need to be actively engaging with the players and moulding the world around those features and needs that actually arise within the players. Necessarily, if we are given a limited world with a pre-configured set of functions that is unable to be changed beyond that pre-configuration, this is nothing more than a theme park attempting to be different. It doesn't matter if this theme park is lacking a story, it is still a pre-configured environment with limited functions that the player is interacting with, rather than impacting.
Indeed, player housing, and the Minecraft total environmental manipulation certainly are moving closer to a sandbox, but these games are ultimately theme parks still, because you are being delivered a game with a pre-configured set of functions and in which there is very little variation in how it can be played--can you really say that the person building the one mansion is really "experimenting in the sandbox" differently than the person building another mansion?
Give the players some semblance of a world, and then observe them. Observe them all intently, and note what is lacking. Be dynamic, o developer, and throw in variables or new challenges that weren't there before. Introduce an earthquake on the second day. Invade with aliens on the 273rd. On the 4th day, have everyone who logs into the game be given a prompt saying they've had a strange dream telling them where to find instructions to build a raft in order that they can sail down the great river and find a colony of beavers being threatened by extinction due to their inability to dyke that river's mouth since a torrential rain has produced an epic flood which is overwhelming them, and you, filled with compassion, want to help, just to do it.
I've only given fleding little specks of somewhat creative ideas. But in my mind, a true sandbox must be a thing diverse and dynamic, and which is actively changing both to reflect the needs of the players, and to always keep them on their toes in order that they never get the impression they are existing in a static pre-configured theme park that ultimately is never altering due to their actions or changing as does reality.
You have some pretty interesting ideas. My only problem is the fact that you're calling for developers to pull at my strings with daily content "urging" me to do something, or even down right requiring me to deal with it (Earthquake or invasion). This is just another type of themepark that is more along the lines of a "dynamic" themepark; the only sandpark elements that are taking place are the developers creating something on a whim (though they will likely have plans months ahead).
Anything that is put virtually or digitally has to have a set of rules to govern everything. This is even true in real life what with gravity and oxygen. Some may say real life is the best sandbox, but the majority of the first world lives in the same house, has the same job, and goes home to the same thing. New things that come up are dealt with, and a good amount of the time there is no choice in the matter.
Your interpretation of past sandbox games is technically correct. At the core it's nearly impossible to make a true sandbox by it's very definition. But sandbox as a sub-genre is just that, a sub-genre that is defines as something and has examples from which the original conception came to fruition.
Let's take a look at Ultima Online. In that game you could pretty much do anything. You could be anything. Want to be a warrior? Done. Warrior mage? Sure. Bard? Tavern Keeper? Knight? Cook? Do you want to place a house in the world? Do you want to craft the house piece by piece (came in a later expansion). Chop down a tree, get wood, use wood to make a table, mine ore... use ore to make a plate. Kill an animal, skin the animal, get leather and meat. Cook meat in a fire or oven, place cook meat on the plate (which is on the table). Make cups, pour ale in the cups, make utensils, put utensils next to the plate. Then use all of it when you want (even make a chair and sit next to the table).
Imagination was sparked, and people even made fish tanks and jazcuzzi's out of dyed cloth and seats and cotton balls -- all of which they created in the field or in town with proper tools. There were people who ran restaurants, wrote in books, used the books for menus... set up entire houses to have that restaurant vibe. Had people be waiters; taverns in the same fashion. Inns. Museums. People made entire towns, kingdoms and guilds centered around them. Towns could be taken over in Felucca. You could set your alignment and use chaos / order weapons. Guild versus Guild Warfare in open field. Actually declaring war with systems.
Treasure hunts, building boats, boarding other people's boats, stealing boats... using treasure maps that you randomly found to go on adventures. It was a world where players could make things for other players and use the tools available to pretty much do everything they wanted. Almost everything in that game had a purpose. Almost every skill could be learned and you could be what you wanted; no levels, no more than 100 HP, blacksmiths making armor and weapons to help you armor. An actual economy that was formed by the players and actual player markets in Britain of people just standing and saying what they have for sale as people walk by (even tamers selling horses they tamed in the wild and maybe even a dragon or two).
A sand-box in terms of the sub-genre it formed isn't a sandbox by pure definition; if the developers bring things to you, or cause them to happen, then it ceases to be a sandbox. Take Eve for example. If the null-sec is suddenly regulated in some way, or things happen, it no longer becomes an area whereby players can make anything happen. Where things occur, power changes hands, betrayels happen, etc. There is a sector for that whereby there are rules and safe zones. But there would've never been something like Band of Brother vs. The Goonswarm (or whatever their name was). This was a war of player invention, and was not directed by the developers.
That is not to say that a sandbox cannot move in the direction you described. There were such a thing as Seers in ultima online that had authority to make such things and events happen. They were essentially public servants for paying players and got free accounts for their work. They gave direction for those who had none or couldn't find any. But they weren't developers, they were players themselves that were "deputized" by the developers for essentially what you'd like to see in a sandbox.
This is all with 1990's technology, and is why UO is heralded by many as the Ultimate Sandbox of it's time. I even remember skilling swordsmanship up just by sparing with a friend. Making potions with my alchemist, using my healing knowledge and anatomy for bandages I made, have BBQ parties with guild mates and friends, tournaments both on foot and horse back, repairing our armor with my blacksmith and making us fresh weapons and armor to use, and so much more. People even had ore buying/selling businesses and blacksmiths partook in it quite often themselves. I even signed a contract to supply an army with armor and weapons for their war efforts. People could even become the head of the very light amount of NPC factions there were, and hire NPCs to be their henchmen.
My blog:
i think the OP has somewhat of a point that there's probably a large(ish) untapped market for a pve centric mmo that is a sandbox, though there would be design challenges in making a sandbox with no pvp. however i would say that one doesnt need to completely discount a game because it has pvp. in a real sandbox nobody is making you do anything, that includes pvp.
let us see what the repopulation, malu, and archeage and eqn have in store for us. EQn is being called a sandbox, and eq games have all been pve, so maybe there is your answer.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I think Shadowbane nailed it. They had the ability to truly revolutionize sandbox play. It was the dated graphics and poor technical and connectivity performance that doomed their endeavor. They also could have fleshed out the content a bit in terms of giving the players more goals. I never played EVE, but I hear good things, and it may have taken up the mantle over the last ten years (I dislike sci-fi MMOs), or perhaps Dark Fall.
Played: UO, DAoC, Shadowbane, DDO, LOTRO, Aion, Rift, TERA, ESO
Sampled: WoW, AoC, GW2, Vanguard, Neverwinter
Playing: FF XIV