Do I compulsively seek out an experience that I can never capture again?
More relevant question is: If true; could you face it (the "never capture again" part) like an adult?
If not, denial is always an option. Someone else (faceless evil devs or SoullessCorp naturally) can be blamed, eternally.
And don't forget that next generation of players! Clearly, it's all their fault.
The thing is, I've tried a couple indy sandbox games and I immediately started getting those old feelings again, especially given that those games tend to bring player together more to accomplish goals such as building your community, going on hunts/fights, adventuring in dangerous lands, etc.
The last time I started to get that old Star Wars Galaxies feeling was when I jumped into Xsyon and started building a community with a group. It felt like a survival situation, and we needed each other. The game was/is broken as can be, and I didn't last very long there, but the point is that I felt it again and it reaffirmed all of the things I've been saying here for years.
People have different perspectives, but for me having freedom and community in a sandbox/hybrid game really gets me immersed in the moment. Given the right game again that allows me to make my own story through the game world, with lots of horizontal gameplay and community features, it would be like old times again.
It's easy for you to sit back and blame players, but we know what we want, and we are aware it currently doesn't exist. At least not in the form of a full-featured stable game. Hopefully that is going to change soon with the new games coming down the road.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
Oculus Rift Screen(look it up if you don't know what this is)
Wii Controlling System-full body control(i am sure it possible but maybe not so cheap)
and a Game with such incredible graphics its like walking through real life.
That is not only better than real life because you could do anything you want but it is the future.
Only differance between that and real life is the sense of touch and smell, which is very diffacult to computerize.
But think about it, we are well on our way to it just got a few problems....like it would take years to design a real life like world and coding the freedom to do anything you want in it.
It would be the best game EVER! Its like the ultimate universe since you could DO ANYTHING YOU WANT! sucks it wont exsist for like another few decades.
Oculus Rift Screen(look it up if you don't know what this is)
Wii Controlling System-full body control(i am sure it possible but maybe not so cheap)
What's you're looking for is the Omni. This plus a Kinect style camera and an Oculus Rift would make for an incredible experience.
Regarding MMO's, I played City of Heroes for a few years, and it was always quite solo friendly yet had a good community. I don't think that making MMO's solo friendly is neccessarily bad, but it's probably a combination with other things.
well if you guys want a pvp game the best pvp in a mmo i have ever played(excluding ptp game) is Gates Of Andaron/4story it has great pvp but horrible game managers and too many people in 1 server because of the fact you only get 2 sides to be on. Storyline isnt that great ether, but the pvp(character's abilities) are pretty perfect. If they added graphics+better management it would be great game. Also without that horrific lag. I say its the greatest pvp because you don't just sit in 1 spot casting spells, you have to actually move.
Originally posted by Skullagrim A great article Adam and I find myself in the same boat. I also have myself to blame. I excluded myself to soloing. Part of it is finding that right group of people to play with. For some strange reason. I have no luck in getting. It's a progress fast mind set anymore. If your behind, you get left there.
Have to agree here. The mindset of the general community has soured me quite a bit.
In WoW, I met up with a great group of people that enjoyed each others company. We made an all Druid guild and every week, we would take new members on a "flight path run" to give them all the flight paths to use. Imagine a string of maybe 10-30 "kitties" (Druids in cat form) running across Azeroth just to pick up flight paths.
We even had a great time raiding The Crossroads (The video) in one guild event. Nothing was gained. No loot acquired. It was just a fun time!
Then Cata released and destroyed my very singular guild with Guild Perks.
It has been a long, long while in many other MMOs that I have found this kind of fun with others. It is becoming more rare to find these kinds of players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
While this article was long winded and nearly devoid of substance, I agree with the author in spirit.
I'm kind of between MMOs right now too. Neverwinter is pretty mediocre and I despise F2P so I doubt I'll even bother. My crew and I destroyed TSW and unfortunately funcom's priorities suck (they spend 2 months creating solo content people vaporize in 2 hours and wonder why players dont' stick around) - unfortunate because TSW is a damn good game.
I'm dinking with Aion right now and don't get why people think so much of it. On the surface it's a mediocre WoW clone. I'll force myself to get thru more to see if it gets better but I'm already thinking that if I want tab target generic repetition I might as well go back to WoW where it's done far better. I'm also dinking with TERA again which has some really lame leveling content but the combat is so good that it keeps you interested in bursts.
ESO won't be out for an eternity and a lot of their design is as stupid as the design for Neverwinter. D&D *IS* the godfather of PvE grouping and has never been about PvP so why does Neverwinter have mostly solo content and have PvP at all? ES is about exploration and tons of PvE content to explore. Options. Why add PvP when your entire franchise has been about quality PvE? ESO looks to be on a path of mediocrity, which is sad. I don't even like the ES games because they feel like lifeless MMOs...which is why I thought they might make a good MMO - they already make games similar, just need to have more than one player involved and shift to group-based content.
Most modern MMORPGs lack the hook to keep players around for a while. Like for years. I don't really get it. It almost has to be intentional, although you'd think that with the investment of years and millions it takes to make a good MMO that developers would want to enjoy the type of long time success that some earlier MMORPGs enjoyed.
I played EQLive at release and for well over a year. I played AC and DAoC for over a year each. I played WoW for 6.5 years. With newer MMOs I'm lucky if I last more than 3 months.
To me the problem is simple. Modern MMORPGs try too hard to be everything for everybody. A solo experience, a pvp experience, and a group experience.
They especially are going to much into the solo experience.
The result is this - you have MMOs where 80% of the content is solo content, 10% is instanced PvP, and 10% is group-based stuff. So the soloists finish the single player campaign, and they are done.
Those of us REAL players looking for a game we can stick with for a while devastate the solo content because solo content is always ultra ez-mode and it doesn't matter how hard you try to just relax and enjoy it, it still flies by, because it's so easy that a brain dead 2 year old chimp can smoke the content.
The PvP crowd obliterate the content they have and max out on their gear in a few weeks and essentially have nothing to do. Most PvPers don't give a crap about the rest of the game anyways, they just want to gank people in a different game for a while.
There ends up being a handful of instances and little to no raiding so the PvE grouping crowd. We max out our characters in a few weeks, grinding the few instances to dust and suffering thru raid lockouts to quickly max out raid gear. And then, your'e done. We'd like to stick around for years because your game is pretty good, but there's no content.
Why is there not enough content for the core players who WOULD stick around for years? Because 80% of dev time was spent making content for soloists who won't stick around no matter what and played your MMO like a single player game. Oh, and you also wasted dev time on PvP for people who don't care about the rest of the game and who ultimately don't even care about the PvP in this game because as usual, the PvP sucks and only appeals to a handful of griefers.
The one thing that is truly magical about MMORPGs is PvE grouping. The cooperative experiencing and conquering of content you could never do alone. It's something you can't find in any other genre.
And to me, the biggest failing of modern MMORPGs is NOT emphasizing the grouping, the CORE of what's best about MMORPGs. The players who would stick around for years are the ones who do grouping. The ones who raid. The ones who do progression.
So many other genres do PvP better. MMO PvP is usually instanced, fake, pointless, impossible to balance, impacted by gear and builds, and ultimately is all about grief. I call it grief-based PvP. I have better gear than you so I destroy you. I have a fotm build and you're clueless and trying to have fun, so I destroy you. There is almost no chance of MMO PvP being balanced or fair - but companies keep on trying and saying THIS TIME IT'LL BE DIFFERENT. Then they release their game with incomplete PvP because no, this time it didin't end up differnet, it didn't even get done in time for release. A few games integrate PvP with the whole game, which is something the majority of players do not want, so those games are very niche. If it's not integrated, it's usually instanced and has nothing at all to do with the rest of the game and is a minigame. An UNNECESSARY minigame because it adds nothing to the core.
So ask yourself, why does Neverwinter have PvP? Not only does PvP in MMOs generally suck, but D&D has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. D&D is the epitome of group based PvE going back to its PnP roots. Putting PvP in a D&D game is pretty much sick and wrong.
So why is it done? Because Cryptic wants to be like other MMOs and to try to be everything to everybody. If they don't have PvP a couple butthurts won't play their game at all. To this I say, who cares? I want to do group-based PvE. People who are PvP only/first are useless to me. Is PvP in a game like Neverwinter something that'll keep players around for years? Not even.
Why is ESO gonna have PvP? Because that's the formula. They could be different, try to stand out, focus on group-based PvE, focus on the core, focus one what THEIR FREAKING COMPANY DOES BEST - amazing PvE content. But no, instead they're promising this ultra complicated PvP implimentation. Something that has ZERO to do with former ES games.
There are no lack of single player games. In a multitude of genres. Again, what makes MMORPGs different from all other genres is cooperative PvE where you take on content you would never experience in any other genre and that you CANNOT do solo.
So why do so many MMORPGs these days have such heavy doses of solo content? Why is the majority of the content solo content? It makes no sense! Why do they make grouping optional to next to nonexistent while you level such that most real players say the real game doens't start til level cap because that's when almost all you do is group stuff?
Couldn't it be possible to design an MMORPG where you're expected to group almost all the time? That has SOME solo availability since nobody can group 100% of the time. But where grouping was clearly the best way to level up. And then have similar endgame but with tons more content?
If such a game existed would you really care if people who want to play MMORPGs like single players did not play at all? I wouldn't give a damn. Would you care if PvP focused players didn't play at all? I wouldn't give a damn. I want to be on servers with people like myself - people who want to group, people who want to be around for a long haul.
Woudn't it be easier for a company to produce more group content faster to keep group PvE players busy longer if they weren't constantly trying to appeal to soloists and PvPers? You can't ever please soloists. Ever. Solo content is EASY. BRAIN DEAD EASY. It has to be. Nobody can ever create enough content to keep soloists busy. That's why there are entire genres of single player games - they're to be digested and you move on to the next game. That's not how MMORPGs are supposed to roll. Companies try to hook you with DLC and xpacs but ultimately single player games are not something you'll play for years the way you could play a good MMO for years.
In the "good old days" you had to group. You weren't going to level much in EQ, FF, or DAoC without grouping. You had to have a good rep as a player and behave because if you didn't, you didn't get groups, and thus you didn't level. While some of the gameplay systems in those games could be considered brutal and even not very fun, the idea of having to group for the whole game is the right idea.
The side effect of "forced grouping" is that community actually happens. Not just a bunch of childish internet punks typing incessant stupidity in chat - that's not community - that's what you get in modern MMOs. When you interact with other players every day, maintain your reputation as a good person and quality player, and when you can't advance without cooperating, you tend to see good communities develop - of people that work together and care. In modern MMOs some guilds replace community but there is no community on the servers themselves, because when you solo 95% of the time and when so many players don't want to group, all you get is crappy behavior, crappy chat, no reason to deal with others, and general lameness.
I would really like to see some big MMORPG developer say fug it, we're going to make a real MMO instead of an MMO that's 80% single player game wtih public chat. We're going to charge a sub instead of going the ultra lame (not)F2P route. We're going to make a game that's worth playing over the long haul and that's worth a sub.
Selling a bazillion units doesn't make your MMO a good MMO, it just means you sold a lot of units up front - that's the goal of most games that aren't MMOs. When most of those players are gone 2-3 months after release due to being soloists who finish their part of the game and move on, what are you left with? When your incomplete and gonna be crappy PvP part of the game doesn't hold people and when the lack of endgame content doesn't keep groupers around... Where's that ongoing revenue stream you dreamed about?
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
I would really like to see some big MMORPG developer say fug it, we're going to make a real MMO instead of an MMO that's 80% single player game wtih public chat. We're going to charge a sub instead of going the ultra lame (not)F2P route. We're going to make a game that's worth playing over the long haul and that's worth a sub.
That's like saying: We're going to make a game that loses money, one which we'll have to retrofit to solo play and make F2P.
Lots of the "F2P" games were originally harder and sub based. They didn't survive too well, and they eventually moved to F2P and made things easier. The big MMORPG developers would prefer skipping the first part, I'm sure. Some smaller ones might try it, and it might even work for them, because their development cost is lower, but it will be a hard sell in any case. It's hard to create an MMO with tons of content when it launches, and just making it hard is unlikely to make it a selling point even for hardcores.
I am victim of an inner conflict with regards to this topic. I do long for the the old MMO archetecture however, as much I as I hate to say it, I do prefer the current MMO model, though not for reasons one may think.
Everquest 2 is probably one of my favorite MMOs of all time. There was something magical about that game which drew me in as such. When that game launched, I would come home from work and play for hours until it was near bedtime (and many days, beyond my bedtime). Eventually my girlfriend (at the time) became fascinated with the game, so I bought her a copy and we started playing together. I eventually made some friends, formed a small guild and bought a nice home and mount. This game was time consuming and extremely engrossing and was one of the very reasons I loved it so. Albeit, it is also the very reason I don't play it anymore.
Within EQ2, in order to accomplish something, you would have to invest several hours to do so. Sure there were some fast travel loactions in the world, but I still found that to get where I needed to go for a quest, I would have to spend a good 20 minutes or more just to get there. You also had to tread carefully in this game because straying to close to a group would get you into a fight or two along the way. Reaching the area of many quests, you would have to group up with others (which took time, quite often) and then while grouped, often enough you would have to discuss a plan of attack in order to avoid certain death. This is, in no way, a complaint. I used to love all the time and preparation involved.
Todays MMOs are all about instant gratification. I can log in for a half an hour at a time and accomplish something. However, most of these accomplishments are lacklustre and insginificant but regardless of how unfulfilling these accomplishments may be, this is style of gameplay that suits my lifestyle now.
I have a family and a rewarding career now. The MMO genre has always been my favorite and although I prefer the hardcore style of the older titles, I just don't have the time to invest in them anymore. So now, I embraced today's MMO, though I do so reluctantly as they do not offer the fulfillment that the MMOs of yesteryear did. Howbeit, they at least allow to me to enjoy some semblance of the genre that I love so much without a hefty investment of time. Time I no longer have to spend.
In the "good old days" you had to group. You weren't going to level much in EQ, FF, or DAoC without grouping. You had to have a good rep as a player and behave because if you didn't, you didn't get groups, and thus you didn't level. While some of the gameplay systems in those games could be considered brutal and even not very fun, the idea of having to group for the whole game is the right idea.
I concur, for the most part. However, you need to realize that the good old days are gone. I really miss grouping and the overall archetype of the older MMOs (see my other post in this stream) however, the MMO has to evolve.
MMOs are no longer a niche genre. They have become mainstream and the vast majority of players want solo content. They want instant gratification. This is why most modern MMOs have so much solo content. Most people don't want to waste time looking for a group, they just want to get out there, kill creatures and aqcuire gear. They don't care for all of the wonderful subtleties this genre has to offer. Some people do care for them but simply do not have the time they once had to invest in the old style of gameplay (such as myself, though reluctantly).
These companies need to make money and they are going to cater to the vast majority. Ultimately, for every one of "you" there are 50 of "them". Howbeit, it is a double edge sword. As you state that most of these people that want this style of game are also the ones who blast though it and then cry for more content when they've maxed out their character in a matter of months.
The genre has evolved; whether that is better or worse is a matter of opinion. For me, I miss everything that you miss though my lifestyle leaves me with preference for the new MMO.
I concur, for the most part. However, you need to realize that the good old days are gone. I really miss grouping and the overall archetype of the older MMOs (see my other post in this stream) however, the MMO has to evolve.
MMOs are no longer a niche genre. They have become mainstream and the vast majority of players want solo content. They want instant gratification.
I suppose I have to say this even though it sounds silly. Most of us here are on the same page - we enjoyed the blood curdling difficulty that the original MMO's had, but are bored with the superfluff that MMO's have become (Hell, its funny, but I miss the mob trains in EQ1..I know).
So the question I have is, do we really need to put up with it? Is there anything that can be done? In this day and age, I would think there's more that can be done to improve MMO's rather than subject ourselves to the crap that is produced today. We live in the age of ever advancing technology and improvements in communications...I would like if a large group of players were to band together and voice a common opinion publicly in the correct way, it could get attention, no?
I think we can lay the blame at the inherent antisocial features now prevalant in most mmos.
The auto group / auto dungeon / auto raid. You mash the button join those people for 30 minutes then depart never to group again.
IN the "olden days" you would form your group and while you had down time normally a few minutes between each battle you would chat and talk and get to knwo the different people in your group. forge friendships and then add them to a friend list and maybe group with them again.
Guilds were made up of friends who did things together because you knew how to play you would arrange your social life around your online family and you would feel part of it.
Now most of my friends have moved to other games non that really appeal to me i find that all new mmos have this lack of comunity. Everyone wants end game so they removed the downtime everyone wanted insta dungeons so they got rid of the lfg function. everyone wanted to raid so they put in an automatic raid feature.
Its basically removed all the social elements of the game, your playing an online game but your not really socialising with the other players. and so you dont get attached to the games you play because the people you meet may as well be strangers in the street you bump into apologise and move on, or the people on the bus you may recognise them now and again but you dont know who they are.
I tried going back to dark age of camelot all that i found was the game i loved to play with friends was no fun without them.
I think that the only MMO experience that I fully committed too was WOW, starting really with Burning Crusade. It was my first really and for some reason it had a "feel" to it and "community" which made it fun. I ultimately burned out on it sometime before they released their Kung Fu Panda version which just made the whole thing seem ridiculous to me and was focused on appealing to 12 year olds or younger. I tried other MMO's, however I could never capture the "feel", "magic", "community" spirit that existed in WOW . RIFT for example is very pretty, but the mechanics just seem odd to me and I have not been able to integrate myself into whatever community exists there. Maybe it is like someone trying to move from a MAC to a PC or vice versa. I have tried Guild Wars 2 but that seems even more sterile. I am even more lost wandering around this nice looking world which just does not have the "feeling" that I would get wandering around WOW and building alliances with people.
MMO's are really all about the social aspects, the shared experiences. MMO's these days seem somewhat immature in many ways geared to children. They have this Asian feel to them which is epitomized by the Kung Fu Panda version of WOW. I find it a complete turnoff. I will take my 5 year old to see Kung Fu Panda and have a few laughs but I am not going to spend hours of my time on it. How about a more mature, adult version of things? I guess that EVE might be that but EVE is a cold world. You are effectively a spaceship. Your Avatar has little reality. It is a strategy game. They are trying to humanize it and I may try it again, however it is extremely complex to build your power in that game. The learning curve is daunting without a big commitment and a lot of patience. RIFT tried to encourage grouping with RIFTS and dynamic events, but I have NEVER built any relationship with people involved with these activities. You just group, kill and move on. This is hardly social. No one ever seems to communicate.
I agree that F2P might make the issue of commitment worse as you can easily bounce from MMO to MMO. You cannot ever really progress without immersing yourself . You have to ultimately decide which girlfriend you want to keep. As I bounce from game to game now there is a feeling of sameness even though they might look different and have somewhat different mechanics. I think the MMO that succeeds ultimately is the one that forces people together and focuses on the social aspects of an MMO making it very easy for people to build guilds and find guilds that suite them. That makes it easy for people to start doing dungeons and raids together that are challenging at lower levels. That is something that WOW offered. MMO's are about making friends and working together, otherwise if you are just going to do quests and level alone, then you might as well play an RPG because they are really better mechanically and more exciting in that respect. The next generation of MMO's might finally merge RPG quality with MMO social interaction. However, I do not think any MMO is really there at this point.
I think that WOW is right to keep their subscription model. They are losing population which should tell them that they are going down the wrong path. They need to correct it by restoring some maturity and excitement to the model. They need to go back and improve upon the lower level experiences building on and extending success. Kung Fu Panda does not cut it unless they are targeting 12 year olds and the Chinese (perhaps). If I am going to put hours into a game, then I should certainly be willing to pay $10 to $15 a month for that experience. Offering the experience free up to a level cap of 20 also makes sense to allow players some exposure, but even that may undermine the commitment. Like a good book, a good MMO has to grab players during the early leveling experience. I find that early experience rather routine in most MMO's now. The stories are sterile and almost sideshows. They are not really integral to playing the game. The characters are lifeless and too numerous to care about. MMO's should take a lesson from award winning TV series like Walking Dead or Breaking Bad, Son's of Anarchy. It is about the characters against the backdrop of an environment. You have to care about the characters - evil or good. What MMO does that? How can an MMO develop groups of players where you actually develop characters like one of these shows which you could actually care about and had personalities? They could actually build an MMO around one of these shows as a model - you are a member of a motorcycle club, or member of a group trying to survive. I think the key is that the group has to be big enough to have enough people online to play but small enough to know the characters you are playing with. You could play versus other groups, form alliances to confront bigger challenges and so forth. The key again is the ability to form up functional groups . I think that this freedom to make your character anything diminishes role playing. Players have to develop personalities and specific skill sets. You want to build groups with complimentary skill sets that makes your group more powerful. You want to endow your avatar with personality - perhaps like SIM's does.
Anyway, I do not have the answer, but I find the MMO genre at this time less than engaging.
Comments
The thing is, I've tried a couple indy sandbox games and I immediately started getting those old feelings again, especially given that those games tend to bring player together more to accomplish goals such as building your community, going on hunts/fights, adventuring in dangerous lands, etc.
The last time I started to get that old Star Wars Galaxies feeling was when I jumped into Xsyon and started building a community with a group. It felt like a survival situation, and we needed each other. The game was/is broken as can be, and I didn't last very long there, but the point is that I felt it again and it reaffirmed all of the things I've been saying here for years.
People have different perspectives, but for me having freedom and community in a sandbox/hybrid game really gets me immersed in the moment. Given the right game again that allows me to make my own story through the game world, with lots of horizontal gameplay and community features, it would be like old times again.
It's easy for you to sit back and blame players, but we know what we want, and we are aware it currently doesn't exist. At least not in the form of a full-featured stable game. Hopefully that is going to change soon with the new games coming down the road.
A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.
MMORPG is an addiction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Vpin9VhNck
Alright guys, picture this:
Oculus Rift Screen(look it up if you don't know what this is)
Wii Controlling System-full body control(i am sure it possible but maybe not so cheap)
and a Game with such incredible graphics its like walking through real life.
That is not only better than real life because you could do anything you want but it is the future.
Only differance between that and real life is the sense of touch and smell, which is very diffacult to computerize.
But think about it, we are well on our way to it just got a few problems....like it would take years to design a real life like world and coding the freedom to do anything you want in it.
It would be the best game EVER! Its like the ultimate universe since you could DO ANYTHING YOU WANT! sucks it wont exsist for like another few decades.
What's you're looking for is the Omni. This plus a Kinect style camera and an Oculus Rift would make for an incredible experience.
Regarding MMO's, I played City of Heroes for a few years, and it was always quite solo friendly yet had a good community. I don't think that making MMO's solo friendly is neccessarily bad, but it's probably a combination with other things.
In WoW, I met up with a great group of people that enjoyed each others company. We made an all Druid guild and every week, we would take new members on a "flight path run" to give them all the flight paths to use. Imagine a string of maybe 10-30 "kitties" (Druids in cat form) running across Azeroth just to pick up flight paths.
We even had a great time raiding The Crossroads (The video) in one guild event. Nothing was gained. No loot acquired. It was just a fun time!
Then Cata released and destroyed my very singular guild with Guild Perks.
It has been a long, long while in many other MMOs that I have found this kind of fun with others. It is becoming more rare to find these kinds of players.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
While this article was long winded and nearly devoid of substance, I agree with the author in spirit.
I'm kind of between MMOs right now too. Neverwinter is pretty mediocre and I despise F2P so I doubt I'll even bother. My crew and I destroyed TSW and unfortunately funcom's priorities suck (they spend 2 months creating solo content people vaporize in 2 hours and wonder why players dont' stick around) - unfortunate because TSW is a damn good game.
I'm dinking with Aion right now and don't get why people think so much of it. On the surface it's a mediocre WoW clone. I'll force myself to get thru more to see if it gets better but I'm already thinking that if I want tab target generic repetition I might as well go back to WoW where it's done far better. I'm also dinking with TERA again which has some really lame leveling content but the combat is so good that it keeps you interested in bursts.
ESO won't be out for an eternity and a lot of their design is as stupid as the design for Neverwinter. D&D *IS* the godfather of PvE grouping and has never been about PvP so why does Neverwinter have mostly solo content and have PvP at all? ES is about exploration and tons of PvE content to explore. Options. Why add PvP when your entire franchise has been about quality PvE? ESO looks to be on a path of mediocrity, which is sad. I don't even like the ES games because they feel like lifeless MMOs...which is why I thought they might make a good MMO - they already make games similar, just need to have more than one player involved and shift to group-based content.
Most modern MMORPGs lack the hook to keep players around for a while. Like for years. I don't really get it. It almost has to be intentional, although you'd think that with the investment of years and millions it takes to make a good MMO that developers would want to enjoy the type of long time success that some earlier MMORPGs enjoyed.
I played EQLive at release and for well over a year. I played AC and DAoC for over a year each. I played WoW for 6.5 years. With newer MMOs I'm lucky if I last more than 3 months.
To me the problem is simple. Modern MMORPGs try too hard to be everything for everybody. A solo experience, a pvp experience, and a group experience.
They especially are going to much into the solo experience.
The result is this - you have MMOs where 80% of the content is solo content, 10% is instanced PvP, and 10% is group-based stuff. So the soloists finish the single player campaign, and they are done.
Those of us REAL players looking for a game we can stick with for a while devastate the solo content because solo content is always ultra ez-mode and it doesn't matter how hard you try to just relax and enjoy it, it still flies by, because it's so easy that a brain dead 2 year old chimp can smoke the content.
The PvP crowd obliterate the content they have and max out on their gear in a few weeks and essentially have nothing to do. Most PvPers don't give a crap about the rest of the game anyways, they just want to gank people in a different game for a while.
There ends up being a handful of instances and little to no raiding so the PvE grouping crowd. We max out our characters in a few weeks, grinding the few instances to dust and suffering thru raid lockouts to quickly max out raid gear. And then, your'e done. We'd like to stick around for years because your game is pretty good, but there's no content.
Why is there not enough content for the core players who WOULD stick around for years? Because 80% of dev time was spent making content for soloists who won't stick around no matter what and played your MMO like a single player game. Oh, and you also wasted dev time on PvP for people who don't care about the rest of the game and who ultimately don't even care about the PvP in this game because as usual, the PvP sucks and only appeals to a handful of griefers.
The one thing that is truly magical about MMORPGs is PvE grouping. The cooperative experiencing and conquering of content you could never do alone. It's something you can't find in any other genre.
And to me, the biggest failing of modern MMORPGs is NOT emphasizing the grouping, the CORE of what's best about MMORPGs. The players who would stick around for years are the ones who do grouping. The ones who raid. The ones who do progression.
So many other genres do PvP better. MMO PvP is usually instanced, fake, pointless, impossible to balance, impacted by gear and builds, and ultimately is all about grief. I call it grief-based PvP. I have better gear than you so I destroy you. I have a fotm build and you're clueless and trying to have fun, so I destroy you. There is almost no chance of MMO PvP being balanced or fair - but companies keep on trying and saying THIS TIME IT'LL BE DIFFERENT. Then they release their game with incomplete PvP because no, this time it didin't end up differnet, it didn't even get done in time for release. A few games integrate PvP with the whole game, which is something the majority of players do not want, so those games are very niche. If it's not integrated, it's usually instanced and has nothing at all to do with the rest of the game and is a minigame. An UNNECESSARY minigame because it adds nothing to the core.
So ask yourself, why does Neverwinter have PvP? Not only does PvP in MMOs generally suck, but D&D has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. D&D is the epitome of group based PvE going back to its PnP roots. Putting PvP in a D&D game is pretty much sick and wrong.
So why is it done? Because Cryptic wants to be like other MMOs and to try to be everything to everybody. If they don't have PvP a couple butthurts won't play their game at all. To this I say, who cares? I want to do group-based PvE. People who are PvP only/first are useless to me. Is PvP in a game like Neverwinter something that'll keep players around for years? Not even.
Why is ESO gonna have PvP? Because that's the formula. They could be different, try to stand out, focus on group-based PvE, focus on the core, focus one what THEIR FREAKING COMPANY DOES BEST - amazing PvE content. But no, instead they're promising this ultra complicated PvP implimentation. Something that has ZERO to do with former ES games.
There are no lack of single player games. In a multitude of genres. Again, what makes MMORPGs different from all other genres is cooperative PvE where you take on content you would never experience in any other genre and that you CANNOT do solo.
So why do so many MMORPGs these days have such heavy doses of solo content? Why is the majority of the content solo content? It makes no sense! Why do they make grouping optional to next to nonexistent while you level such that most real players say the real game doens't start til level cap because that's when almost all you do is group stuff?
Couldn't it be possible to design an MMORPG where you're expected to group almost all the time? That has SOME solo availability since nobody can group 100% of the time. But where grouping was clearly the best way to level up. And then have similar endgame but with tons more content?
If such a game existed would you really care if people who want to play MMORPGs like single players did not play at all? I wouldn't give a damn. Would you care if PvP focused players didn't play at all? I wouldn't give a damn. I want to be on servers with people like myself - people who want to group, people who want to be around for a long haul.
Woudn't it be easier for a company to produce more group content faster to keep group PvE players busy longer if they weren't constantly trying to appeal to soloists and PvPers? You can't ever please soloists. Ever. Solo content is EASY. BRAIN DEAD EASY. It has to be. Nobody can ever create enough content to keep soloists busy. That's why there are entire genres of single player games - they're to be digested and you move on to the next game. That's not how MMORPGs are supposed to roll. Companies try to hook you with DLC and xpacs but ultimately single player games are not something you'll play for years the way you could play a good MMO for years.
In the "good old days" you had to group. You weren't going to level much in EQ, FF, or DAoC without grouping. You had to have a good rep as a player and behave because if you didn't, you didn't get groups, and thus you didn't level. While some of the gameplay systems in those games could be considered brutal and even not very fun, the idea of having to group for the whole game is the right idea.
The side effect of "forced grouping" is that community actually happens. Not just a bunch of childish internet punks typing incessant stupidity in chat - that's not community - that's what you get in modern MMOs. When you interact with other players every day, maintain your reputation as a good person and quality player, and when you can't advance without cooperating, you tend to see good communities develop - of people that work together and care. In modern MMOs some guilds replace community but there is no community on the servers themselves, because when you solo 95% of the time and when so many players don't want to group, all you get is crappy behavior, crappy chat, no reason to deal with others, and general lameness.
I would really like to see some big MMORPG developer say fug it, we're going to make a real MMO instead of an MMO that's 80% single player game wtih public chat. We're going to charge a sub instead of going the ultra lame (not)F2P route. We're going to make a game that's worth playing over the long haul and that's worth a sub.
Selling a bazillion units doesn't make your MMO a good MMO, it just means you sold a lot of units up front - that's the goal of most games that aren't MMOs. When most of those players are gone 2-3 months after release due to being soloists who finish their part of the game and move on, what are you left with? When your incomplete and gonna be crappy PvP part of the game doesn't hold people and when the lack of endgame content doesn't keep groupers around... Where's that ongoing revenue stream you dreamed about?
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
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TL; DR "I liked your article, and here's what I think!"
That's like saying: We're going to make a game that loses money, one which we'll have to retrofit to solo play and make F2P.
Lots of the "F2P" games were originally harder and sub based. They didn't survive too well, and they eventually moved to F2P and made things easier. The big MMORPG developers would prefer skipping the first part, I'm sure. Some smaller ones might try it, and it might even work for them, because their development cost is lower, but it will be a hard sell in any case. It's hard to create an MMO with tons of content when it launches, and just making it hard is unlikely to make it a selling point even for hardcores.
I am victim of an inner conflict with regards to this topic. I do long for the the old MMO archetecture however, as much I as I hate to say it, I do prefer the current MMO model, though not for reasons one may think.
Everquest 2 is probably one of my favorite MMOs of all time. There was something magical about that game which drew me in as such. When that game launched, I would come home from work and play for hours until it was near bedtime (and many days, beyond my bedtime). Eventually my girlfriend (at the time) became fascinated with the game, so I bought her a copy and we started playing together. I eventually made some friends, formed a small guild and bought a nice home and mount. This game was time consuming and extremely engrossing and was one of the very reasons I loved it so. Albeit, it is also the very reason I don't play it anymore.
Within EQ2, in order to accomplish something, you would have to invest several hours to do so. Sure there were some fast travel loactions in the world, but I still found that to get where I needed to go for a quest, I would have to spend a good 20 minutes or more just to get there. You also had to tread carefully in this game because straying to close to a group would get you into a fight or two along the way. Reaching the area of many quests, you would have to group up with others (which took time, quite often) and then while grouped, often enough you would have to discuss a plan of attack in order to avoid certain death. This is, in no way, a complaint. I used to love all the time and preparation involved.
Todays MMOs are all about instant gratification. I can log in for a half an hour at a time and accomplish something. However, most of these accomplishments are lacklustre and insginificant but regardless of how unfulfilling these accomplishments may be, this is style of gameplay that suits my lifestyle now.
I have a family and a rewarding career now. The MMO genre has always been my favorite and although I prefer the hardcore style of the older titles, I just don't have the time to invest in them anymore. So now, I embraced today's MMO, though I do so reluctantly as they do not offer the fulfillment that the MMOs of yesteryear did. Howbeit, they at least allow to me to enjoy some semblance of the genre that I love so much without a hefty investment of time. Time I no longer have to spend.
I concur, for the most part. However, you need to realize that the good old days are gone. I really miss grouping and the overall archetype of the older MMOs (see my other post in this stream) however, the MMO has to evolve.
MMOs are no longer a niche genre. They have become mainstream and the vast majority of players want solo content. They want instant gratification. This is why most modern MMOs have so much solo content. Most people don't want to waste time looking for a group, they just want to get out there, kill creatures and aqcuire gear. They don't care for all of the wonderful subtleties this genre has to offer. Some people do care for them but simply do not have the time they once had to invest in the old style of gameplay (such as myself, though reluctantly).
These companies need to make money and they are going to cater to the vast majority. Ultimately, for every one of "you" there are 50 of "them". Howbeit, it is a double edge sword. As you state that most of these people that want this style of game are also the ones who blast though it and then cry for more content when they've maxed out their character in a matter of months.
The genre has evolved; whether that is better or worse is a matter of opinion. For me, I miss everything that you miss though my lifestyle leaves me with preference for the new MMO.
I suppose I have to say this even though it sounds silly. Most of us here are on the same page - we enjoyed the blood curdling difficulty that the original MMO's had, but are bored with the superfluff that MMO's have become (Hell, its funny, but I miss the mob trains in EQ1..I know).
So the question I have is, do we really need to put up with it? Is there anything that can be done? In this day and age, I would think there's more that can be done to improve MMO's rather than subject ourselves to the crap that is produced today. We live in the age of ever advancing technology and improvements in communications...I would like if a large group of players were to band together and voice a common opinion publicly in the correct way, it could get attention, no?
Nailed it.
I think that the only MMO experience that I fully committed too was WOW, starting really with Burning Crusade. It was my first really and for some reason it had a "feel" to it and "community" which made it fun. I ultimately burned out on it sometime before they released their Kung Fu Panda version which just made the whole thing seem ridiculous to me and was focused on appealing to 12 year olds or younger. I tried other MMO's, however I could never capture the "feel", "magic", "community" spirit that existed in WOW . RIFT for example is very pretty, but the mechanics just seem odd to me and I have not been able to integrate myself into whatever community exists there. Maybe it is like someone trying to move from a MAC to a PC or vice versa. I have tried Guild Wars 2 but that seems even more sterile. I am even more lost wandering around this nice looking world which just does not have the "feeling" that I would get wandering around WOW and building alliances with people.
MMO's are really all about the social aspects, the shared experiences. MMO's these days seem somewhat immature in many ways geared to children. They have this Asian feel to them which is epitomized by the Kung Fu Panda version of WOW. I find it a complete turnoff. I will take my 5 year old to see Kung Fu Panda and have a few laughs but I am not going to spend hours of my time on it. How about a more mature, adult version of things? I guess that EVE might be that but EVE is a cold world. You are effectively a spaceship. Your Avatar has little reality. It is a strategy game. They are trying to humanize it and I may try it again, however it is extremely complex to build your power in that game. The learning curve is daunting without a big commitment and a lot of patience. RIFT tried to encourage grouping with RIFTS and dynamic events, but I have NEVER built any relationship with people involved with these activities. You just group, kill and move on. This is hardly social. No one ever seems to communicate.
I agree that F2P might make the issue of commitment worse as you can easily bounce from MMO to MMO. You cannot ever really progress without immersing yourself . You have to ultimately decide which girlfriend you want to keep. As I bounce from game to game now there is a feeling of sameness even though they might look different and have somewhat different mechanics. I think the MMO that succeeds ultimately is the one that forces people together and focuses on the social aspects of an MMO making it very easy for people to build guilds and find guilds that suite them. That makes it easy for people to start doing dungeons and raids together that are challenging at lower levels. That is something that WOW offered. MMO's are about making friends and working together, otherwise if you are just going to do quests and level alone, then you might as well play an RPG because they are really better mechanically and more exciting in that respect. The next generation of MMO's might finally merge RPG quality with MMO social interaction. However, I do not think any MMO is really there at this point.
I think that WOW is right to keep their subscription model. They are losing population which should tell them that they are going down the wrong path. They need to correct it by restoring some maturity and excitement to the model. They need to go back and improve upon the lower level experiences building on and extending success. Kung Fu Panda does not cut it unless they are targeting 12 year olds and the Chinese (perhaps). If I am going to put hours into a game, then I should certainly be willing to pay $10 to $15 a month for that experience. Offering the experience free up to a level cap of 20 also makes sense to allow players some exposure, but even that may undermine the commitment. Like a good book, a good MMO has to grab players during the early leveling experience. I find that early experience rather routine in most MMO's now. The stories are sterile and almost sideshows. They are not really integral to playing the game. The characters are lifeless and too numerous to care about. MMO's should take a lesson from award winning TV series like Walking Dead or Breaking Bad, Son's of Anarchy. It is about the characters against the backdrop of an environment. You have to care about the characters - evil or good. What MMO does that? How can an MMO develop groups of players where you actually develop characters like one of these shows which you could actually care about and had personalities? They could actually build an MMO around one of these shows as a model - you are a member of a motorcycle club, or member of a group trying to survive. I think the key is that the group has to be big enough to have enough people online to play but small enough to know the characters you are playing with. You could play versus other groups, form alliances to confront bigger challenges and so forth. The key again is the ability to form up functional groups . I think that this freedom to make your character anything diminishes role playing. Players have to develop personalities and specific skill sets. You want to build groups with complimentary skill sets that makes your group more powerful. You want to endow your avatar with personality - perhaps like SIM's does.
Anyway, I do not have the answer, but I find the MMO genre at this time less than engaging.