This thread is simply not for people like you. I could give a damn if I ever reach level cap in a mmo. That will never be the reason why I play a mmo. I simply want a mmo that I have fun playing everday and keeps me coming back for more.
What is a person like me? I also want a MMO that I enjoy playing everyday. I just prefer a sandbox end game over an endless grind for xp. Why should it take a year of killing the same damn things over and over again for me to hit max level? How is that fun at all? I would rather reach the part of the game where I play it the way I want to with out having to even think about XP.
I'm not suggesting there's no place for MMOs like WoW or Rift (heck I play Rift currently), I'm just saying that MMOs have become so watered down, they're not really MMOs anymore. MMO players are upset about that is all. Some people want to get to max level in 2 hours, then spend the next hour running the same content over and over. There's nothing wrong with that. There's just some people that don't want that.
We'd rather play older MMOs where it was all about the journey, not the destination. We'd rather play an MMO when you hit level 10, and told your friends and guildmates, it was like a party for the achievement. We'd rather play an MMO that had alot of inconvience built in, having to run to dungeons, having to find people to group up with, having to go craft for days just for a single level. I don't find any of that stuff fun either, until it's completed. Then it's alot more fun at once, instead of a little bit of fun all the time.
This is where newer MMOs go wrong, imho. They want to make it fun all the time. The problem with that is fun gets boring when all you get is fun. If make it like a rollercoaster where you have cursing-throwing-hissy fits, then the next minute you're running around your house screaming in joyous accomplishment, to me that's more enjoyment.
it'll either grow up or fail to function enough to afford a non - F2P mmo.
it's just a phase. because mmo development is slow, phases last longer. but it's already coming to a close, if you notice, most newere announcements are smaller, sandboxier MMOs.
Everything is a phase. There will never be a time again that the MMO genre will be exclusively for the hardcore. The casuals are here to stay. It will only be a matter of which will dominate the other at any given period of time.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
"instant gratification generation"?
Just join them. We are talking about entertainment here ... nothing wrong with some fast fun. Personally, i am not going back to the days where playing a MMO means "waiting, waiting, and more waiting" as gameplay. If you want to call that "instant gratification" .. then i will fully embrace it.
You can see the difference in play styles by the different comments posted. Leveling is and should always be the focal point of an mmo in my opinion. If the leveling is easy then why have it? Why not start everyone at max level at launch or have no levels at all where at first log in you have max stats. I for one like to work for my levels and my stats. Again not knocking anyones playstyles, but fast leveling is like putting in a cheat code that gives you access to the end of the game or better yet remember the game genie for nes? All you have at endgame is a bunch of people who have not mastered their class because they got to max in a few hours of gameplay.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
"instant gratification generation"?
Just join them. We are talking about entertainment here ... nothing wrong with some fast fun. Personally, i am not going back to the days where playing a MMO means "waiting, waiting, and more waiting" as gameplay. If you want to call that "instant gratification" .. then i will fully embrace it.
There is a shocking revelation.
For MMO I agree, for MMORPG I do not however.
Why is it shocking? The term has negative connotation because it sounds bad. The root is that we are talking about entertainment. So people want product that is entertaining from the start, and all the time. Why is that surprising?
We are not talking about work here. We are not talking about real achievement here. At best, we are talking about the ILLUSION of achievement here. So what if the devs give it to their customers fast, as long as they make enough money.
Originally posted by c0exist You can see the difference in play styles by the different comments posted. Leveling is and should always be the focal point of an mmo in my opinion. If the leveling is easy then why have it? Why not start everyone at max level at launch or have no levels at all where at first log in you have max stats. I for one like to work for my levels and my stats. Again not knocking anyones playstyles, but fast leveling is like putting in a cheat code that gives you access to the end of the game or better yet remember the game genie for nes? All you have at endgame is a bunch of people who have not mastered their class because they got to max in a few hours of gameplay.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Hence Camelot Unchained. I'll give ESO a go as well - meanwhile I'm playing DAoC on a particular freeshard - Mods here told me I'm not allowed to say the name, however.
Originally posted by c0exist You can see the difference in play styles by the different comments posted. Leveling is and should always be the focal point of an mmo in my opinion. If the leveling is easy then why have it? Why not start everyone at max level at launch or have no levels at all where at first log in you have max stats. I for one like to work for my levels and my stats. Again not knocking anyones playstyles, but fast leveling is like putting in a cheat code that gives you access to the end of the game or better yet remember the game genie for nes? All you have at endgame is a bunch of people who have not mastered their class because they got to max in a few hours of gameplay.
To provide the illusion of achievement. Why else?
even in a fantasy setting, 'achievement' and 'easy' are conflicting concepts.
an 'easy achievement' is a very tricky concept. it's in the same league with "I'm the best noob there is. I am the pride of the Plastic League.".
Don't sound like there is real work in playing a game. Achievments in electronic entertainment are all illusions. They are basically psychological candies given out by the devs to keep customers happy.
Originally posted by c0exist You can see the difference in play styles by the different comments posted. Leveling is and should always be the focal point of an mmo in my opinion. If the leveling is easy then why have it? Why not start everyone at max level at launch or have no levels at all where at first log in you have max stats. I for one like to work for my levels and my stats. Again not knocking anyones playstyles, but fast leveling is like putting in a cheat code that gives you access to the end of the game or better yet remember the game genie for nes? All you have at endgame is a bunch of people who have not mastered their class because they got to max in a few hours of gameplay.
To provide the illusion of achievement. Why else?
even in a fantasy setting, 'achievement' and 'easy' are conflicting concepts.
an 'easy achievement' is a very tricky concept. it's in the same league with "I'm the best noob there is. I am the pride of the Plastic League.".
Don't sound like there is real work in playing a game. Achievments in electronic entertainment are all illusions. They are basically psychological candies given out by the devs to keep customers happy.
Having fun doing what exactly? Other than posting nonsense here with 10K+ in posts.
lol I am sorry but this is hilarious. Grinding 10000 mobs or typing 10000 posts? which would you rather do?
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Don't sound like there is real work in playing a game. Achievments in electronic entertainment are all illusions. They are basically psychological candies given out by the devs to keep customers happy.
psychological candies like the number of posts we have or stars next to our names.
Some of us old farts don't get hung up on what's considered "instant gratification", "hardcore", "casual". Some of us just play games if they are fun. Isn't that what games are meant for anyways? I always get a kick out of people trying to segregate different playstyles and genres as if theirs is superior. Some of you guys can continue to build walls around yourselves crying about how the good old days are long gone or how certain groups are ruining gaming. The rest of us just shrug and move on. If you can't find one game out of all what's on the market today that you find fun, then maybe it's time you pick another hobby.
without being fully serious but since I feel the below statement is relevant...
I like mining in EVE, your argument is invalid.
politely put, if you tell a consumer "games should be about fun" he'll probably say "that's too general, what are you selling again?".
Let me tell you about a genuinely fun moment I ha in world of warcraft. early in tier 13, (first week of hardmodes) we reach heroic yor'sahj. As we do the first pulls, just to see what's up and we begin to grasp the size of the challenge ahead, there is LAUGHTER in mumble. Literarly people laughing. The ammount of damage that happened if we didn't hit a benchmark or screwed up a position was extremely high.
people...were getting hopelessly killed...and laughing about it.
after many attempts we had several sub 1% pulls the night before the nerf, then we 2-shot it post nerf. that's a sad story. But that's not what I'm trying here to say.
"fun"... can come in the form of being amused by how big of a challenge is ahead of you. Fun can come from overcoming it...or fun can come from how easy something was. Don't assume your fun is the only fun.
edit: very very old video, but same concept protrayed here. They're having fun. Nothing to debate about that. maybe if it happens over and over they won't but for now they sure are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByXS73L38Ic
I'm not describing easy vs. hard. I'm describing gameplay vs. non-gameplay. Interesting games vs. wastes of time.
Imagine if the Lord of the Rings movies were filmed completely in real-time. From Shire to Shire, the trilogy would take literally over a year of continuous watching. All the walking. All the riding. All the bathroom breaks. All the sleeping.
It would be a colossal waste of time.
It wouid be a colossal waste of time in any medium. ("Damn, why aren't people enjoying my book? Do you think it has something to do with Chapter 59: The Fellowship Sleeps? Or maybe Chapter 295: The Fellowship Sleeps Yet Again?" -Alternate-Dimension JRR Tolkien)
And it would be a colossal waste of time in MMORPG form.
People aren't very tolerant of having their time wasted. They tend to want their entertainment to entertain.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think what he was saying that "entertaining" is all relative. For instance, if I told you that you had to kill the same mob 100 times and then you would die and lose all the exp that you had gained in those kills would you call that experience entertaining? Im certain you would say no, but to me and a few others on here we would. A waste of time to some, not to others.
For me MMOs are more entertaining if I'm doing things with other people, and honestly killing 100 of something is less of a waste of time than questing with others. If I want a good story I can so myself I can read a book, watch a movie or play a SP game. Entertainment is in the eye of the beholder and on a long sliding scale.
without being fully serious but since I feel the below statement is relevant...
I like mining in EVE, your argument is invalid.
politely put, if you tell a consumer "games should be about fun" he'll probably say "that's too general, what are you selling again?".
Let me tell you about a genuinely fun moment I ha in world of warcraft. early in tier 13, (first week of hardmodes) we reach heroic yor'sahj. As we do the first pulls, just to see what's up and we begin to grasp the size of the challenge ahead, there is LAUGHTER in mumble. Literarly people laughing. The ammount of damage that happened if we didn't hit a benchmark or screwed up a position was extremely high.
people...were getting hopelessly killed...and laughing about it.
after many attempts we had several sub 1% pulls the night before the nerf, then we 2-shot it post nerf. that's a sad story. But that's not what I'm trying here to say.
"fun"... can come in the form of being amused by how big of a challenge is ahead of you. Fun can come from overcoming it...or fun can come from how easy something was. Don't assume your fun is the only fun.
edit: very very old video, but same concept protrayed here. They're having fun. Nothing to debate about that. maybe if it happens over and over they won't but for now they sure are. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByXS73L38Ic
I'm not describing easy vs. hard. I'm describing gameplay vs. non-gameplay. Interesting games vs. wastes of time.
Imagine if the Lord of the Rings movies were filmed completely in real-time. From Shire to Shire, the trilogy would take literally over a year of continuous watching. All the walking. All the riding. All the bathroom breaks. All the sleeping.
It would be a colossal waste of time.
It wouid be a colossal waste of time in any medium. ("Damn, why aren't people enjoying my book? Do you think it has something to do with Chapter 59: The Fellowship Sleeps? Or maybe Chapter 295: The Fellowship Sleeps Yet Again?" -Alternate-Dimension JRR Tolkien)
And it would be a colossal waste of time in MMORPG form.
People aren't very tolerant of having their time wasted. They tend to want their entertainment to entertain.
I actually found the books pretty dull and long winded as they were
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
This thread is simply not for people like you. I could give a damn if I ever reach level cap in a mmo. That will never be the reason why I play a mmo. I simply want a mmo that I have fun playing everday and keeps me coming back for more.
What is a person like me? I also want a MMO that I enjoy playing everyday. I just prefer a sandbox end game over an endless grind for xp. Why should it take a year of killing the same damn things over and over again for me to hit max level? How is that fun at all? I would rather reach the part of the game where I play it the way I want to with out having to even think about XP.
I am not saying you should play a game where you are doing things everyday that you dont enjoy. What I am saying is that if you play a game and ENJOY doing what ever it is that you do in that game everday then you should not care how long it takes you to get max level. I swear I have never played a mmo in my life with the goal of hitting max level. It has always been about that journey. We all want sandbox gameplay because you cant make a real mmo without it. The question is why developers dont see it. The OP is just like us, we all just want a real mmo to play.
I actually found the books pretty dull and long winded as they were
Agreed, although I try to tiptoe around trailblazers like Tolkien and Gygax. It's hard to fairly/truthfully criticize their works while simultaneously giving them the credit they deserve for blazing the trail (and being responsible for the core of so much of the entertainment I've loved over the years.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Normandy7 Agreed. The younger generation wants the instant gratification instead of earning it. They think it is called grind when you don't accomplish something within 2 hours. MMOs are about the journey to the destination and if it takes me over a year to reach that then so be it. Atleast I know my money was well spent. Today it is about paying to be super powerful and clear the game in a weekend. Pretty pathetic!
that is excatly the point. challenge is removed cause it greates wall between fun and accomplishment. feels like youth today want all in same bowl mixed and to be drink instantly. wich also means they grow bored on the game after 1st week and then nag on forums how bad game it is WE WANT MORE WE WANT MORE! new shiny things to be thrown in the same mixture bowl to be repeated its formula.
I actually found the books pretty dull and long winded as they were
Agreed, although I try to tiptoe around trailblazers like Tolkien and Gygax. It's hard to fairly/truthfully criticize their works while simultaneously giving them the credit they deserve for blazing the trail (and being responsible for the core of so much of the entertainment I've loved over the years.)
I don't consider Tolkien a trailblazer. Let me be generous, he borrowed a lot.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Younger generation also leave when ever they want and you fail a dungeon run or in rts game your match becouse of this leave attitude without saying anything bah:(...they also say nothing or just curse swear and get crazy when you even make a small mistake or dont do what they want lol not to mention the names many have so immature:(.
I quit multiplayer back to solo and occasional co-op game with friends thats it.
I realy tried playing Age of Empires II HD on steam man the gamers these days behavior are even worse then i thought no social skills or any normal behavior i quit that also.
Im prolly to old for this baheavior ill stick to solo then.
Comments
I'm not suggesting there's no place for MMOs like WoW or Rift (heck I play Rift currently), I'm just saying that MMOs have become so watered down, they're not really MMOs anymore. MMO players are upset about that is all. Some people want to get to max level in 2 hours, then spend the next hour running the same content over and over. There's nothing wrong with that. There's just some people that don't want that.
We'd rather play older MMOs where it was all about the journey, not the destination. We'd rather play an MMO when you hit level 10, and told your friends and guildmates, it was like a party for the achievement. We'd rather play an MMO that had alot of inconvience built in, having to run to dungeons, having to find people to group up with, having to go craft for days just for a single level. I don't find any of that stuff fun either, until it's completed. Then it's alot more fun at once, instead of a little bit of fun all the time.
This is where newer MMOs go wrong, imho. They want to make it fun all the time. The problem with that is fun gets boring when all you get is fun. If make it like a rollercoaster where you have cursing-throwing-hissy fits, then the next minute you're running around your house screaming in joyous accomplishment, to me that's more enjoyment.
Everything is a phase. There will never be a time again that the MMO genre will be exclusively for the hardcore. The casuals are here to stay. It will only be a matter of which will dominate the other at any given period of time.
There is a shocking revelation.
For MMO I agree, for MMORPG I do not however.
Why is it shocking? The term has negative connotation because it sounds bad. The root is that we are talking about entertainment. So people want product that is entertaining from the start, and all the time. Why is that surprising?
We are not talking about work here. We are not talking about real achievement here. At best, we are talking about the ILLUSION of achievement here. So what if the devs give it to their customers fast, as long as they make enough money.
To provide the illusion of achievement. Why else?
Hence Camelot Unchained. I'll give ESO a go as well - meanwhile I'm playing DAoC on a particular freeshard - Mods here told me I'm not allowed to say the name, however.
And yet i am the one who is having fun, and you are the one who is sad ranting about how you hate modern MMOs.
Having fun doing what exactly? Other than posting nonsense here with 10K+ in posts.
I am playing Allods Online, Spec Ops:The Line, Skyrim, Cities XL, amongst other games at will.
And get it right. There is a difference between MMO and MMORPG.
Having fun playing modern MMOs, and watching you sadly ranting about MMORPGs you don't like, instead of playing Spec Ops.
And i thought you were against F2P. How is Allods online treating you?
Don't sound like there is real work in playing a game. Achievments in electronic entertainment are all illusions. They are basically psychological candies given out by the devs to keep customers happy.
Yes .. of course. We are lab rats with wallets.
lol I am sorry but this is hilarious. Grinding 10000 mobs or typing 10000 posts? which would you rather do?
psychological candies like the number of posts we have or stars next to our names.
Some of us old farts don't get hung up on what's considered "instant gratification", "hardcore", "casual". Some of us just play games if they are fun. Isn't that what games are meant for anyways? I always get a kick out of people trying to segregate different playstyles and genres as if theirs is superior. Some of you guys can continue to build walls around yourselves crying about how the good old days are long gone or how certain groups are ruining gaming. The rest of us just shrug and move on. If you can't find one game out of all what's on the market today that you find fun, then maybe it's time you pick another hobby.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I'm not describing easy vs. hard. I'm describing gameplay vs. non-gameplay. Interesting games vs. wastes of time.
Imagine if the Lord of the Rings movies were filmed completely in real-time. From Shire to Shire, the trilogy would take literally over a year of continuous watching. All the walking. All the riding. All the bathroom breaks. All the sleeping.
It would be a colossal waste of time.
It wouid be a colossal waste of time in any medium. ("Damn, why aren't people enjoying my book? Do you think it has something to do with Chapter 59: The Fellowship Sleeps? Or maybe Chapter 295: The Fellowship Sleeps Yet Again?" -Alternate-Dimension JRR Tolkien)
And it would be a colossal waste of time in MMORPG form.
People aren't very tolerant of having their time wasted. They tend to want their entertainment to entertain.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I actually found the books pretty dull and long winded as they were
I am not saying you should play a game where you are doing things everyday that you dont enjoy. What I am saying is that if you play a game and ENJOY doing what ever it is that you do in that game everday then you should not care how long it takes you to get max level. I swear I have never played a mmo in my life with the goal of hitting max level. It has always been about that journey. We all want sandbox gameplay because you cant make a real mmo without it. The question is why developers dont see it. The OP is just like us, we all just want a real mmo to play.
Agreed, although I try to tiptoe around trailblazers like Tolkien and Gygax. It's hard to fairly/truthfully criticize their works while simultaneously giving them the credit they deserve for blazing the trail (and being responsible for the core of so much of the entertainment I've loved over the years.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
that is excatly the point. challenge is removed cause it greates wall between fun and accomplishment. feels like youth today want all in same bowl mixed and to be drink instantly. wich also means they grow bored on the game after 1st week and then nag on forums how bad game it is WE WANT MORE WE WANT MORE! new shiny things to be thrown in the same mixture bowl to be repeated its formula.
I don't consider Tolkien a trailblazer. Let me be generous, he borrowed a lot.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Sure, but WOW and The Bible are also derivative works, yet they were clearly also trailblazers.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Younger generation also leave when ever they want and you fail a dungeon run or in rts game your match becouse of this leave attitude without saying anything bah:(...they also say nothing or just curse swear and get crazy when you even make a small mistake or dont do what they want lol not to mention the names many have so immature:(.
I quit multiplayer back to solo and occasional co-op game with friends thats it.
I realy tried playing Age of Empires II HD on steam man the gamers these days behavior are even worse then i thought no social skills or any normal behavior i quit that also.
Im prolly to old for this baheavior ill stick to solo then.
Back to skyrim /wave