There's a mature way to do things and an immature way. I'm sorry you've chosen the wrong one. Part of the basic maturation process is coming to grips with reality as it actually is, not with how you wish it was.
Now I can certainly understand that you wish things were different and that's fine, but to spend all your time complaining about it instead of just getting on with your life and going out to find something that you actually do enjoy is extremely childish.
Originally posted by Scot Old farts just get replaced by new farts. Unfortunately the new ones all smell the same and don't last as long.
(Which is sometimes a relief, when you're trapped in an elevator with either.)
The op's basic question: Is elitism and an innate belief in our personal superiority over tihe 'masses' ever dying out?
Of course it isn't. No qualifications (except ego) for the position exist and all applicants are self-selected.
There's some potential for Country Club Greens Fees Exclusive Access Pricing being missed by MMO producers, though.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Some of us old farts don't get hung up on what's considered "instant gratification", "hardcore", "casual". Some of us just play games if they are fun. Isn't that what games are meant for anyways? I always get a kick out of people trying to segregate different playstyles and genres as if theirs is superior. Some of you guys can continue to build walls around yourselves crying about how the good old days are long gone or how certain groups are ruining gaming. The rest of us just shrug and move on. If you can't find one game out of all what's on the market today that you find fun, then maybe it's time you pick another hobby.
This to an extent. I do have some issue with how gamer attitudes are nowadays but I can't really blame it on changes in their games. I don't know if it's that or a larger cultural/generation issue. What I do know is that the endless griping and pining is getting tiresome and it could all just boil down to a simple case of nostalgia goggles.
Yeah, those who are crying about the good old days are actually a dying breed. That's why there's so much complaining, not enough games tailored to their needs anymore. Everything's casual and easy. The game companies are edging towards this for a reason, and it isn't to piss people off, it's because that's where the money is: Casual players.
Some of us old farts don't get hung up on what's considered "instant gratification", "hardcore", "casual". Some of us just play games if they are fun. Isn't that what games are meant for anyways? I always get a kick out of people trying to segregate different playstyles and genres as if theirs is superior. Some of you guys can continue to build walls around yourselves crying about how the good old days are long gone or how certain groups are ruining gaming. The rest of us just shrug and move on. If you can't find one game out of all what's on the market today that you find fun, then maybe it's time you pick another hobby.
That's exactly the point we keep trying to make. Play the games that are fun to you and don't worry about the games that aren't. There are plenty of games out there that I have no interest in whatsoever, I just don't play them. I don't sit around and whine how all the games need to change into things I like. We keep getting these old farts (although I suspect most of them aren't very old) who think that they have a right to get the game they want whether it makes any money or not. The kind of bizarre belief that they deserve something they want, just because they've been playing in the genre for a while leaves me shaking my head.
Play the games you have fun playing and if you can't find any games you want to play, try going outside for a while, the sunlight won't kill you.
Yeah that video did make me smile. Every year that I continue to play MMOs I understand why they are so alluring to me. Other people. No matter what I am doing it's almost always more fun with others. I say almost because there are certain things like questing that are easier solo unless I am following someone while they quest. Slaughter or collection outings are substantially more fun with others IMO.
You mean just like you entering every thread based on old school or older players and berrating them won't?
I, like many others, are just pointing out the reality of the situation. It's not my fault that you'd rather live in a fantasy world.
And I, like many others, am just pointing out that many play MMORPG's for that very purpose. Or did anyways, when they were virtual worlds and not linear quest funneled hand holder games. Played them BECAUSE they were fantasy worlds where you could escape the drudges of everyday life for hours at a time in a different type of game medium. It's just a different type of relaxation for some, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with a person for enjoying their game in such a way no more than someone who RP's...or someone who wants to just race through content and move on.
Sadly though because the market has ballooned beyond comprehension...that tiem is lost because there are WAY too many tooldbags more than happy to grief, troll, and find any way possible to ruin those types game time in their race to "end game". Which again, is a term that never has nor never will belong in the MMORPG genre.
Use to be about the journey not the destination. Now it's about the destination and how much you can get and how well known you can get along the way.
We who enjoyed MMO that took time to play, accomplish ingame really matters, crafters had names, dungeons were hard, even get a level were a accomplish in it self, everything we did back then really matters and it really felt good.
Now you play MMOs atleast western ones on autopilot, you don't really need a guild, you dont really need friends, everything is layed out for you to play from A to B solo, even the dungeons and raids gets on farm mode within a week it gets released.
And the sad part for me is that the younger generation seems to enjoy this, instant gratification crowd no wonder game studios seems to make clones left and right when it sells so good............for a month.........then they return on this board and the sead game board and whine there is nothing to do at endgame and wait for the next big thing.
Some of you might know me from GW2 forums and thinks hey you talking about yourself why on earth are you even making a thread like this when you play GW2?
Why I play GW2 is not because it's easy or hard I play it because Anet broke the WoW mold simple as that, I can finally play a game were I'm free to do what I want, and yes I would love this game to be less solo friendly and more hardcore.
Just wanted to say that for you guys who love to make a post history.
So are we old farts ever going back to the old days with some modifications or are we stuck with instant gratification generation and pray for some indi company who has money to do it right?
Sorry to say it man, but I believe they are here to stay and I believe the industry will keep catering to their desires. It is sad, not to open old wounds, but when I first started SWG had just released and that was a game you had to learn how to play. But people cried long and hard about how difficult it was and they (SOE) changed it. They ripped the soul out of the game and made it trash.
None of the game devs/Publishers that I read about give two shits about making a game that will challenge people. They make huge cinematics, with hours of voice overs, or just copy and paste WoW, it sickens me it really does. There is not a Team out there that seems to want to break the mold.
Anyway, enough of my keyboard stabbing, I think the younger generation of gamer is here to stay, which means my MMO time will continue to fade.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Originally posted by Cephus404 We keep getting these old farts (although I suspect most of them aren't very old) who think that they have a right to get the game they want whether it makes any money or not. The kind of bizarre belief that they deserve something they want, just because they've been playing in the genre for a while leaves me shaking my head.
For me, at least (though I know there are plenty whose feet fit that shoe), I just want ONE game. Definitely NOT every MMO made as I would not play them all. There is a game here and there that has the spirit of the older games, but I have not found one yet that fits me.
Just think if a game could get, and hold onto, 250K or more players for over 1 year. Would that be profitable? I would hope so, as there were many, many games with less than that "way back when" that seemed to do OK. Wasn't it the Camelot Unchained guy that was shooting for 50K players to keep his game running after launch? Would the game I'd like to see have 250K players? We may never know...
As far as "complaining and whining" on message boards goes, how else does a player make known what they look for in an MMORPG? Spam publishers? Write a blog that no one will ever read? Maybe start a YouTube channel that is equally ignored?
From your posts, I get the feeling that you need to take a break from all these posters who give you such headaches, that you feel the need to NOT talk about the subject matter (most of the time) and instead "complain and whine" about all the posters.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Cephus404 We keep getting these old farts (although I suspect most of them aren't very old) who think that they have a right to get the game they want whether it makes any money or not. The kind of bizarre belief that they deserve something they want, just because they've been playing in the genre for a while leaves me shaking my head.
For me, at least (though I know there are plenty whose feet fit that shoe), I just want ONE game.
...one that was already made, more than a decade ago...
But yes Alt, it should have been obvious to you, me, and every other poster in this thread what it's primary result of this thread would be:
"Condescending attitudes from poster Group A (aka Olde Guyez), followed by derision from Group B (DamnKidz)."
Same goal as the last several hundred times we've all seen this thread? Or every other "damn kids" thread ever posted, anywhere, on the internet, at any time, ever?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
My first MMO was AO and then EQ. Not sure if i consider myself an old fart but i have definietly adapted and changed with time. Only old farts who are dying breed are those who still cling to the past and refuse to change.
I infact enjoy modern MMOS more than i did when i just started out with AO and EQ. And no OP achieveing in games even back then really didn't matter..the only thing really mattered was what i was achieveing in school and college.
All those late night raidings and hours wasted in MMOS didn't help me in real life but it was my education and real life experinces and friendship with real people that helped me become who i am today.
There is one thing that I don't understand, and perhaps I never will. The people who chimed in here to just pour salt in the wound. You obviously prefer the games that are being made right now. For you, that's awesome! It is your time to shine, you have many different games to choose from and you can try most of them for free. There also seems to be no end to the continuous stream of new games on the horizon that also fit what you would like to play.
Why is that not enough? I'm not talking about the people who discuss the actual topic which was presented as a question. I actually think the answer to that question might be yes, and it is a sad event for me. I have other hobbies that I will move to and in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal, however, there is a part of me that is really going to miss online gaming. It seems like some of you here would prefer that we did just die out and stop playing. It can't be because you feel that we are a threat to the games that you enjoy. Those games are here to stay, and as I said before, you are in your element right now and should probably be spending most of your time enjoying these games and less time brow beating those of us who don't have a game to enjoy.
Is it a sadistic thing? Did you wake up this morning and decide to just piss in someone's cheerios for the laughs? I really think that the market would support just one game that had a more old school approach. I know that we are a vocal minority, but I think there are 6 maybe 7 hundred thousand of us that would pay 15 a month to play something like this and that should keep the lights on. It doesn't have to be copy/paste EQ1 from 1999. Even I think that would be too much for most people to handle. Everything is just so far in the opposite direction that we don't even have anything that even resembles that.
So, serious question, What do you gain by coming into these threads, knowing what the subject matter will be by the title, and adding insult to injury?
It happens every time I have a go around with posting on this website, and I just don't understand the mentality.
I am an "old fart" gamer, at the ripe old age of 35, I have been gaming online since 1992-93. I remember back when you used to have to pay by the hour for some games, and others were so massive that they blew your mind, like Ultima Online.
The problem in gaming is not the current trend of instant gratification, or easy mode gameplay. But that more people are feeling comfirtable with being lazy, or just mean in games and the forums. Most gamers out there now say things, or do things, they wouldnt dare to say in person. Need I remind everyone of the backlash from when Blizzard was going to change all profile names to the account holders real name. ((Not that I feel that would have worked, hell most of the real trouble makers dont have real names in the profile anyway.))
I remember when in a chat for a game if one person started belittling another person or trolling them, others in the community would step up and help the victim. Now people just gang up on the victim and only make it worse.
Yes I think the first/second wave of mmo play style is dead. There were far fewer MMOs back then and they all had that long term investment to them. I guess maybe I'm an old fart without the desire to go back in time. I have less time to play so I simply can't invest what I once did. I also like the array of choices rather then having a single MMO I invest all of my time into. Even back then with years invested it really did seem like a second job not something I did for fun. It had it's moments and good times but that dwindled over time. I do think those really good times are hard if not impossible for a more short term MMO to capture.
I also think that some of what developers have done is a direct reaction to players actions. If you make something hard players will look for the path of least resistance so for example running a bot that grinds the hard part is acceptable to many. So as a developer you can fight bots or you can eliminate the reason for doing it because what the players are saying is that they don't like that part of your game. Why fight it? Gold sellers is another area where the developers have adopted a "join them" attitude. Players are going to buy gold there is just no stopping it. It makes sense to provide a legit way of doing it in game as it satisfies players and provides more income. I'm sure there are more examples.
And I, like many others, am just pointing out that many play MMORPG's for that very purpose. Or did anyways, when they were virtual worlds and not linear quest funneled hand holder games. Played them BECAUSE they were fantasy worlds where you could escape the drudges of everyday life for hours at a time in a different type of game medium. It's just a different type of relaxation for some, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with a person for enjoying their game in such a way no more than someone who RP's...or someone who wants to just race through content and move on.
And I, like others, am just pointing out that many play MMORPGs if they are fun games, and care less about if there is a virtual world.
I don't see how your opinion is more valid than mine. Just opinions.
...one that was already made, more than a decade ago...
But yes Alt, it should have been obvious to you, me, and every other poster in this thread what it's primary result of this thread would be:
"Condescending attitudes from poster Group A (aka Olde Guyez), followed by derision from Group B (DamnKidz)."
Same goal as the last several hundred times we've all seen this thread? Or every other "damn kids" thread ever posted, anywhere, on the internet, at any time, ever?
I agree. This thread is one among many similar damnkids-threads equally fruitless.
I don't understand why mods don't lock these right a way. No way does anything good come out of them! This is essentially a flame thread.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Worry you not. Us old farts are never die, we just keep coming back! Didn't you get the memo on retros? :P
Though really, phases pass but most have a way of coming back. Even the most ridiculous waves strike back some time.
So, who knows? Maybe in 2277 - meds permitting! - we'll be playing an EQ clone through and through and discussing here on these boards how training is stupid and how it's nonsense that the game doesn't have a map.
Then we can look back on our 3-century life, deciding that all of it has, after all, been rewarding and meaningful. Aah.
Comments
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Me too. I don't understand why some people worship Tolkien.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There's a mature way to do things and an immature way. I'm sorry you've chosen the wrong one. Part of the basic maturation process is coming to grips with reality as it actually is, not with how you wish it was.
Now I can certainly understand that you wish things were different and that's fine, but to spend all your time complaining about it instead of just getting on with your life and going out to find something that you actually do enjoy is extremely childish.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
(Which is sometimes a relief, when you're trapped in an elevator with either.)
The op's basic question: Is elitism and an innate belief in our personal superiority over tihe 'masses' ever dying out?
Of course it isn't. No qualifications (except ego) for the position exist and all applicants are self-selected.
There's some potential for Country Club Greens Fees Exclusive Access Pricing being missed by MMO producers, though.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
This to an extent. I do have some issue with how gamer attitudes are nowadays but I can't really blame it on changes in their games. I don't know if it's that or a larger cultural/generation issue. What I do know is that the endless griping and pining is getting tiresome and it could all just boil down to a simple case of nostalgia goggles.
Yeah, those who are crying about the good old days are actually a dying breed. That's why there's so much complaining, not enough games tailored to their needs anymore. Everything's casual and easy. The game companies are edging towards this for a reason, and it isn't to piss people off, it's because that's where the money is: Casual players.
That's exactly the point we keep trying to make. Play the games that are fun to you and don't worry about the games that aren't. There are plenty of games out there that I have no interest in whatsoever, I just don't play them. I don't sit around and whine how all the games need to change into things I like. We keep getting these old farts (although I suspect most of them aren't very old) who think that they have a right to get the game they want whether it makes any money or not. The kind of bizarre belief that they deserve something they want, just because they've been playing in the genre for a while leaves me shaking my head.
Play the games you have fun playing and if you can't find any games you want to play, try going outside for a while, the sunlight won't kill you.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeah that video did make me smile. Every year that I continue to play MMOs I understand why they are so alluring to me. Other people. No matter what I am doing it's almost always more fun with others. I say almost because there are certain things like questing that are easier solo unless I am following someone while they quest. Slaughter or collection outings are substantially more fun with others IMO.
And I, like many others, am just pointing out that many play MMORPG's for that very purpose. Or did anyways, when they were virtual worlds and not linear quest funneled hand holder games. Played them BECAUSE they were fantasy worlds where you could escape the drudges of everyday life for hours at a time in a different type of game medium. It's just a different type of relaxation for some, it doesn't mean there is something wrong with a person for enjoying their game in such a way no more than someone who RP's...or someone who wants to just race through content and move on.
Sadly though because the market has ballooned beyond comprehension...that tiem is lost because there are WAY too many tooldbags more than happy to grief, troll, and find any way possible to ruin those types game time in their race to "end game". Which again, is a term that never has nor never will belong in the MMORPG genre.
Use to be about the journey not the destination. Now it's about the destination and how much you can get and how well known you can get along the way.
Sorry to say it man, but I believe they are here to stay and I believe the industry will keep catering to their desires. It is sad, not to open old wounds, but when I first started SWG had just released and that was a game you had to learn how to play. But people cried long and hard about how difficult it was and they (SOE) changed it. They ripped the soul out of the game and made it trash.
None of the game devs/Publishers that I read about give two shits about making a game that will challenge people. They make huge cinematics, with hours of voice overs, or just copy and paste WoW, it sickens me it really does. There is not a Team out there that seems to want to break the mold.
Anyway, enough of my keyboard stabbing, I think the younger generation of gamer is here to stay, which means my MMO time will continue to fade.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Just think if a game could get, and hold onto, 250K or more players for over 1 year. Would that be profitable? I would hope so, as there were many, many games with less than that "way back when" that seemed to do OK. Wasn't it the Camelot Unchained guy that was shooting for 50K players to keep his game running after launch? Would the game I'd like to see have 250K players? We may never know...
As far as "complaining and whining" on message boards goes, how else does a player make known what they look for in an MMORPG? Spam publishers? Write a blog that no one will ever read? Maybe start a YouTube channel that is equally ignored?
From your posts, I get the feeling that you need to take a break from all these posters who give you such headaches, that you feel the need to NOT talk about the subject matter (most of the time) and instead "complain and whine" about all the posters.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
...one that was already made, more than a decade ago...
But yes Alt, it should have been obvious to you, me, and every other poster in this thread what it's primary result of this thread would be:
"Condescending attitudes from poster Group A (aka Olde Guyez), followed by derision from Group B (DamnKidz)."
Same goal as the last several hundred times we've all seen this thread? Or every other "damn kids" thread ever posted, anywhere, on the internet, at any time, ever?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
My first MMO was AO and then EQ. Not sure if i consider myself an old fart but i have definietly adapted and changed with time. Only old farts who are dying breed are those who still cling to the past and refuse to change.
I infact enjoy modern MMOS more than i did when i just started out with AO and EQ. And no OP achieveing in games even back then really didn't matter..the only thing really mattered was what i was achieveing in school and college.
All those late night raidings and hours wasted in MMOS didn't help me in real life but it was my education and real life experinces and friendship with real people that helped me become who i am today.
well
being playing to loong
Yeas the mmorpgs today seem to have lost the idea of mmmorpg
But after titles as Everquest, EQII, and Dark age of camelot.
I cant for my life seeing my self struggling to the endless xp grind.
Max lvl is where the real game come to play not when I quit a game
But if the player base come from single player game it is.
But most mmo arent mmorpgs now days there just online single player games.
But now with kids and work I will never play a mmorpg where I cant pay with irl cash to keep upp with those who can play endless of hours.
But the problem isnt there its the social thing that we may hade in SWG Everquest EqII and titles as Dark age of camelot who are gone.
Guides & Trials for EvE Online:
There is one thing that I don't understand, and perhaps I never will. The people who chimed in here to just pour salt in the wound. You obviously prefer the games that are being made right now. For you, that's awesome! It is your time to shine, you have many different games to choose from and you can try most of them for free. There also seems to be no end to the continuous stream of new games on the horizon that also fit what you would like to play.
Why is that not enough? I'm not talking about the people who discuss the actual topic which was presented as a question. I actually think the answer to that question might be yes, and it is a sad event for me. I have other hobbies that I will move to and in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal, however, there is a part of me that is really going to miss online gaming. It seems like some of you here would prefer that we did just die out and stop playing. It can't be because you feel that we are a threat to the games that you enjoy. Those games are here to stay, and as I said before, you are in your element right now and should probably be spending most of your time enjoying these games and less time brow beating those of us who don't have a game to enjoy.
Is it a sadistic thing? Did you wake up this morning and decide to just piss in someone's cheerios for the laughs? I really think that the market would support just one game that had a more old school approach. I know that we are a vocal minority, but I think there are 6 maybe 7 hundred thousand of us that would pay 15 a month to play something like this and that should keep the lights on. It doesn't have to be copy/paste EQ1 from 1999. Even I think that would be too much for most people to handle. Everything is just so far in the opposite direction that we don't even have anything that even resembles that.
So, serious question, What do you gain by coming into these threads, knowing what the subject matter will be by the title, and adding insult to injury?
It happens every time I have a go around with posting on this website, and I just don't understand the mentality.
I am an "old fart" gamer, at the ripe old age of 35, I have been gaming online since 1992-93. I remember back when you used to have to pay by the hour for some games, and others were so massive that they blew your mind, like Ultima Online.
The problem in gaming is not the current trend of instant gratification, or easy mode gameplay. But that more people are feeling comfirtable with being lazy, or just mean in games and the forums. Most gamers out there now say things, or do things, they wouldnt dare to say in person. Need I remind everyone of the backlash from when Blizzard was going to change all profile names to the account holders real name. ((Not that I feel that would have worked, hell most of the real trouble makers dont have real names in the profile anyway.))
I remember when in a chat for a game if one person started belittling another person or trolling them, others in the community would step up and help the victim. Now people just gang up on the victim and only make it worse.
So much crap, so little quality.
51 and plan to be mmo gaming for the next 40 years
my only regret? I dont read as often as i used to
EQ2 fan sites
Yes I think the first/second wave of mmo play style is dead. There were far fewer MMOs back then and they all had that long term investment to them. I guess maybe I'm an old fart without the desire to go back in time. I have less time to play so I simply can't invest what I once did. I also like the array of choices rather then having a single MMO I invest all of my time into. Even back then with years invested it really did seem like a second job not something I did for fun. It had it's moments and good times but that dwindled over time. I do think those really good times are hard if not impossible for a more short term MMO to capture.
I also think that some of what developers have done is a direct reaction to players actions. If you make something hard players will look for the path of least resistance so for example running a bot that grinds the hard part is acceptable to many. So as a developer you can fight bots or you can eliminate the reason for doing it because what the players are saying is that they don't like that part of your game. Why fight it? Gold sellers is another area where the developers have adopted a "join them" attitude. Players are going to buy gold there is just no stopping it. It makes sense to provide a legit way of doing it in game as it satisfies players and provides more income. I'm sure there are more examples.
And I, like others, am just pointing out that many play MMORPGs if they are fun games, and care less about if there is a virtual world.
I don't see how your opinion is more valid than mine. Just opinions.
I agree. This thread is one among many similar damnkids-threads equally fruitless.
I don't understand why mods don't lock these right a way. No way does anything good come out of them! This is essentially a flame thread.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Worry you not. Us old farts are never die, we just keep coming back! Didn't you get the memo on retros? :P
Though really, phases pass but most have a way of coming back. Even the most ridiculous waves strike back some time.
So, who knows? Maybe in 2277 - meds permitting! - we'll be playing an EQ clone through and through and discussing here on these boards how training is stupid and how it's nonsense that the game doesn't have a map.
Then we can look back on our 3-century life, deciding that all of it has, after all, been rewarding and meaningful. Aah.