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No Action Combat?
zevni78
Member UncommonPosts: 1,146
Does anyone else think that no real time dodge due to animation lock means that this is not action combat?
I know you have animation locks in other action combat games but animations cancel when you dodge to allow real time damage mitigation, a huge part of the difference between action and not-as-much action combat.
For e.g. what is the point of those red circle telegraphs from caster enemies if you can't respond in time?
As the combat was the only reason I was interested in this game I will not be playing it, does anyone else feel Cryptic miss-represented what the combat would feel like?
Playing as GWF was fustrating and I had to spend literally all my money on potions, after lvl 9 I gave up, I can take hard, but my skill wasnt being tested, only my patience. Many others see this as a deal breaker, this Massively article mentions it but doesnt conclude is undermines the entire game as i do.
"The one issue I have with combat is that my character needs to finish her combat animation before dodging. If I start a heavy swing, I can't just say, "Oh screw it; he's casting something," and dodge. My character needs to finish her swing and spend a fraction of a second thinking about the pros and cons of dodging before reluctantly dashing off to the side. This means that more often than I would like, I end up taking clearly marked incoming attacks face-first while I'm madly jamming my A key to dodge left."
Does anyone else have a different interpretation of what action combat means? For me I just can't get past the lack of freedom to react and have my reflexes be my only limitation. All I came away with was a craving to play TERA again, or wait for Wildstar.
Still, at least I avoid being milked by Cryptic and it's cash shop again.
Yours in Data, Zevni78
Comments
Personally think DDO's combat was trash at best. NWO's combat I wouldn't say is "action-y" either. Don't know how I would describe it.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I really dont like games that lock you onto the spot when you swing your weapon.. its just a silly idea..
You can imagine in real life a viking full on running at you only to stop to swing his weapon....
Take a look at Darkfall, DDO, Mortal Online for how action/fps type combat should be in MMOs..
If you make sure to time your attacks you barely take any damage but you can't do it if you try to spam your attacks like you do in other games. People seem to think action combat is that actions should have no consequenses, that you should be able to jump while shooting arrows and run at full speed when swinging your sword.
Neverwinter could improve the effects on the rooting but to eliminate it completely would make it extremely easy-mode, its already easy to begin with.
No action combat should be responsive to commands which is what it is far from. More times than not I can't even dodge because of the retarded lock in place and the dodge or movement doesn't override combat actions. It's like the orcs that do a 5 sec combo at nothing but air. This isn't what I call action combat.
And I love how people blindly defend Neverwinter's horrible combat system by saying that movement equates EZ mode. Yeah.... GW2 is anything but EZ mod where in Neverwinter is a snooze fest combat. Never have I felt combat so friggin boring before.
Whatever, it IS action-based; if you move to the side before the monster in front of you swings, he won't hit you. Of course, you take a penalty to-hit, and it shows you in the combat log and on the die roll. You can kite monsters, set ambushes, pull singletons from loose groups, etc.
You can do none of that in NWO.
"Crap-y"
I hardly ever respond to MMORPG.com threads, so the fact that I am replying to yours...feel honored.
I somewhat agree with you. Tera had more of a responsive combat than Neverwinter and in return the gameplay felt a lot smoother. Since there is a great deal of animation lock here, Neverwinter's combat CAN feel "clunky" or not very smooth at times.
I played 2.5-3 hours last night. I guess I just got used to it and the combat/gameplay ultimately was fine. I guess Cryptic's logic is this: Think before you act. Dont just mindlessly go through a rotation and expect to be able to dodge in a pinch. Don't just mash your keyboard and expect to survive. I guess with every swing, with every ability you execute, they want you to provoke a little thought before doing it. Is this the right time to cast my daily? Is this the right time to do This or That. Do I have time to pop this and then dodge out of the circle thats already underneath me. I guess they want more decision based combat, rather than reactive.
There isnt anything wrong with decision based combat, it just isnt what we are used to. For over a decade, and probably more, most of the MMO players have been conditioned that they can mash their keyboard and "oh sh_t" themselves out of a situation by cancelling the animation...mashing the KB without regard to whats going on around them. Maybe Neverwinter seeks to undue some of that. Its a shock to our system, but it isnt terrible.
Concerning using a lot of potions: I love it so far. I did a foundry quest last night at level 5. Got toward the end and 5 or 6 really hard guys came at me that I couldnt simply 2 or 3 shot. I had to kite, dodge, pop potions, and the passive heals via cleric abilities. Honestly, there are just some mobs that are difficult. Wow, imagine that in an MMO? Mobs that are difficult, that hit hard, that when they are in a group they SURROUND YOU and not just stand in front of you waiting for your cleave.
So, with decision based combat and semi-difficult mobs, you really need to think. Ability placement, timing, etc. This isnt a diablo hack and slash, this isn't tera where you fire off abilities without consequence
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Still even with that weapon it would not root him to the spot the moment he swing the sword.. sure he wont be able dance around people with it.. but the more movement you have with that type of weapon the more damage you will do.. stopping on the spot and trying to swing it would be a bad thing.
Looks at games like Chivalry, war of the roses, mount and blade for good combat system.. sure sure they are not 100% real as they are suppose to be fun... but i dont understand anyone in their right mind would think rooting a character to the spot when attacking is a good idea..
I like the combat in neverwinter. And as I am only lvl 6 so far this probably doesn't count but everything up till now is easy as sunday morning. As for the combat, I am loving it. The way the animations lock you in place make it feel like there is a huge impact with every move. I feel engaged in battle because I am not constantly running circles while swinging my sword around. Something that really couldn't be done irl. As for the dodging, I am having no problems dodging red circles whatsoever.
So for me it's thumbs up, a nice cross between tactical and action combat.
This is not true btw. What is that rotating force called? That is what is causing velocity and damage.
OK, from a reality-based martial arts perspective, let me put it plainly: You move, or you die. You are trained such that your weapon is an extension of your arm, or you die.
The closer approximation to what you are talking about would be 9th and 10th century medieval combat; on foot (no stirrups in western Europe), using large, two-handed swords (because the steel sucked and if they weren't thick they broke) AND wearing ~75lb of armor. Do you know what the training books looked like? Dance lessons.
P.S. The 23-lb claymore was a single, out-sized specimen (7 1/2 feet long!). The average claymore weighed about 6 lb.
Though there can be a broad selection of "action" combat types, I think having your avatar react when you do is far more intuitive, satisfying and skill based than a clumsy system where you have all the hallmarks of a reactive combat system but not the function.
I only recently started playing action combat as TERA was my first and I was impressed that I had to focus on the mob and not my UI for the first time in a decade due to the split second timing needed. Action shoudn’t just mean no tab target and mouse clicks corresponding to attacks, what’s the difference between combat dictated by hotbar cooldowns and combat animations?
The flow isn’t in Neverwinter, glad that others don’t mind it, but I am just very disappointed that the choice of reactive combat in mmos is still so limited as this game simply doesn’t count for me.
The rooting isnt the problem, I didn't mind it at all in TERA and other games I've played since, my favourite part of not having to manage a cluttered UI is that I get to focus on mob behavour, visual cues, being held back by animations breaks immersion.
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
err, ok, many decades from now I shall tell my grandchildren of this day...
For me it was frustrating, counter-intuative and cost me all my potions, as it was my first character I couldnt afford to go into combat more than the minimum for each quest, so I got less exp from grindings, so I was lower lvl than usual, and so it went on...
I don't consider fast reactions to be mindless, and if there is enough to react to I won't be going through repetitive rotations anyway, telegraphs simply dont give u enough time unless u only hit in short bursts, making chains pointless, all i ask is combat flow based on my reactions, not their animation limits.
So why have reactive elements such as telegraphs? How can i make such judgement calls not knowing the timing of the next enemy attack in advance? Either have reactive or timing based, this combination doesnt fit well.
I haven’t been mashing anything, action combat is new to me, and this seems a step backwards, I play a great deal of strategy games, and I feel in rpgs nowadays more action is more immersive, unless you are doing turn based. The strategy here lacks visceral satisfaction, but is not strategic enough to mentally stimulate.
It doesn't shock me, it irritates.
And when you run out of potions, and money? There may be ways I can work around this economic problem but as I am not enjoying the combat I can't be bothered.
The challenge here is from learning the game designers ugly hybrid system, there are ways to make a challenge from a more consistent, fluid combat system. FFXIV was challenging, but at the end mainly to your sanity, I simply disagree with the design philosophy, hard is fun when it stimulates the brain or the adrenaline, this just makes me rant in gaming forums.
This should be about my dance with the enemy, not my characters timing, I repeat a point I made earlier, why recycle the old cooldown system but with animations locks?
What class are you playing? I may try another one later, but the issue for me is combat mechanism fundamentals so I doubt it will help.
try a rogue and make sure you get at least level 10 to unlock stealth.. id also play till you at least get the ability that leaves a shadow clone behind(forgot what level that was but it was around 15 i think maybe earlier).. to me rogue is the only class that feels "right" to me..
I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg
Think of it this way, when I see a telegraph, I want to react to it, immediately or otherwise, if I have 2 secs to react but 3 secs before the animation finishes, then as I could not know the attack was coming till the start of the telegraph there is no way I can avoid it unless I never use a 3 sec attack.
I maintain my position, Neverwinter's combat is badly designed.
Thanks, I'll do that if I go back.
Yes Mr.Miagi
When we get back from where we are going, we will return to where we were. I know people there!
I agree with this,,, It just feels realistic to me.
Of course it's action combat.
Animation lock is because of 4e PnP mechanics incorporated into the game. That's at least the design intent the devs have said and there's no plans to change it. On the flip side Funcom said the reason why their Animations looked off was because they didn't have an animation lock in their combat. Take that for what you will.