It seems some bad misconceptions in there.They like to talk about table top games,but these are MMO's not table top games.They also are sort of leaning towards more of a single player game experience than a MMO.They should realize that a players actions are SUPPOSE to interact with the game world,it is not suppose to be your own little storyline.The reason is simple,your own storyline is what removes you from the MMO world and that is a contradiction to why we make a MMO game.
This Storybricks team talks a big talk like game world changing events,but in reality are talking nothing more than having NPC's act a little more life like.
We already had this in games years ago,like MnM/Wizardry ect ect.This could carry a lot of depth or simply use a few scripted scenarios ,really nothing different than what SWTOR did allowing you 3 choices.The only difference is that instead of seeing 3 choices on the screen under a/ b/ c / they are hidden within the Ai acript.What i am saying is it can actually be done in a cheap mannerism and what i would expect.
The article mentions the greatness of unscripted AI,but truth is it MUST be scripted,NPC's cannot think for themselves.
Yes it can be at least a beginners step in the right direction to giving us more life like NPC's.However i feel the first wave of this has already been done and i doubt we will see much more than a few scripted scnearios for each NPC.
The older game examples i mentioned did it pretty good.They operated under KEYWORDs or phrases.They would also venture around the game world,not visually but through scripted code they would bounce around various parts of the game world.
There might be some real secret hidden within EQ:Next's design ,but so far i have seen nothing to convince me.I don't blame them for keeping it a secret,i would also.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It seems some bad misconceptions in there.They like to talk about table top games,but these are MMO's not table top games.They also are sort of leaning towards more of a single player game experience than a MMO.They should realize that a players actions are SUPPOSE to interact with the game world,it is not suppose to be your own little storyline.The reason is simple,your own storyline is what removes you from the MMO world and that is a contradiction to why we make a MMO game.
This Storybricks team talks a big talk like game world changing events,but in reality are talking nothing more than having NPC's act a little more life like.
We already had this in games years ago,like MnM/Wizardry ect ect.This could carry a lot of depth or simply use a few scripted scenarios ,really nothing different than what SWTOR did allowing you 3 choices.The only difference is that instead of seeing 3 choices on the screen under a/ b/ c / they are hidden within the Ai acript.What i am saying is it can actually be done in a cheap mannerism and what i would expect.
The article mentions the greatness of unscripted AI,but truth is it MUST be scripted,NPC's cannot think for themselves.
Yes it can be at least a beginners step in the right direction to giving us more life like NPC's.However i feel the first wave of this has already been done and i doubt we will see much more than a few scripted scnearios for each NPC.
The older game examples i mentioned did it pretty good.They operated under KEYWORDs or phrases.They would also venture around the game world,not visually but through scripted code they would bounce around various parts of the game world.
There might be some real secret hidden within EQ:Next's design ,but so far i have seen nothing to convince me.I don't blame them for keeping it a secret,i would also.
I think you are confusing things. When scripted is referred to it means in the case of a movie script, not programming. You go to an NPC, a long paragraph of text is written out for you to go and get a specific thing and come back. Everyone who plays the game does the same the quest. This article is basically talking about a procedual AI that adapts on who you are as a character and by what you do in relation to that specific NPC.
Storybricks sounds good on paper, but what game-related news doesnt?
I remember SWTOR talking about their deep story component, e.g., "The way you intereact with NPCs is important and permanent. Your choices reflect your destiny" - something like that crap.
REALITY:
Deep choices? Pfft. The quest giver talks... you have the following options:
As I said earlier, everything sounds good on paper. But when usually put to practice, it's just stupid.
Lol, almost spilled my coffee over this. SO TRUE! XD
I mean, I really like the text about this theory. And I agree to everything they say. But how this ever can be implemented into a MMO is beyond me. NPCs would need to be VIs (Virtual Intelligences), and the database to memorize all the doings would be immense!
I would even be happy with something in between. Like when I send the kid to the Sith Academy, he later wants revenger or later is thankful. Or the Captain of the Starship which I kill and some relative comes "I am Inigo Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die!". Something along these lines. God, SWTOR had SO MANY lofty promises the game would remember and consequences. And ALL of it was bla bla. I was SO let down that nothing even in the slightest was implemented into it, and I could have been the most evil laughterer as Jedi or the greatest Saint as BH, and nobody ever cared AT ALL. That was just sad and ridiculous. I mean, at least a variable that checks the light/dark alignment and the reputation among certain groups could be implemented into SOME conversations, but no.
I'd love to see at least some more reaction to what I did and what I said. It doesn't have to be all the time and too much, but yes, I agree this is indeed one of the most important next steps in MMOs. I too always dreamed how MMos of the future would be more like Tabletop Games. At least somewhat, and given how vast UO and SWG where, games rather devolved to mere action shooters with story. And while millions went into graphics, practially nothing was put into more intelligent and interesting game systems.
It's a great article, but I am somewhat doubtful we are ever gonna see that.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
try sandboxes
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I actually tested "Storybricks" a while ago before they started working together with SOE.
I understand that people are very reluctant to believe the article.
Though having tested the software I can attest that SB does what it says it does.
I'm also not sure how much NDA I'm still under so I won't go into too much detail.
The versions I played around with were very crude and definatly not packaged in a way that your lowest common denominator could work with it. But the method they developed works.
The question isn't can Storybricks deliver, the question is can SOE deliver.
If there's one thing I've learned from SOE is to take everything they say early with a grain or two of salt. EQ2 is my main experience for this. I was one of the EQ players who resisted WoW and went EQ2. Lots of underdelivering.
That said, I'll give eq3 a shot, definitely. I just am not going to get my hopes up.
EQ2 has not offered rare mats, or other items people screamed about, since they transitioned the F2P model to the previously P2P servers.
You don't flat out buy spell upgrades. There is a feature provided to everyone once you are level 20 that allows you to "research" one spell at a time to the next tier. The time it takes depends on the level of the spell and can take hours to days at later levels. There is an option to "speed up" the process for SC but I'm not sure what it does or if there is a cooldown as I have never used it.
It's worth noting you can get the all the spell upgrades in the game normally and as a free player up to expert.
Originally posted by Aelious EQ2 has not offered rare mats, or other items people screamed about, since they transitioned the F2P model to the previously P2P servers.
You don't flat out buy spell upgrades. There is a feature provided to everyone once you are level 20 that allows you to "research" one spell at a time to the next tier. The time it takes depends on the level of the spell and can take hours to days at later levels. There is an option to "speed up" the process for SC but I'm not sure what it does or if there is a cooldown as I have never used it.
It's worth noting you can get the all the spell upgrades in the game normally and as a free player up to expert.
You click upgrade ( buy the upgrade ) and it upgrades your spell using your sc that you bought with real money, can't be any clearer than that.
I agree that it's a simple process, I was just pointing out that the upgrading is for everyone and the books for upgrading are in the game as well. It may not be as fast as clicking a button but hey, if someone is willing to pay 8.00 for one level 95 master book that can drop in the game why not let them? More development in the long run.
Thanks to the OP for pointing this stuff out. As a bitter SWG vet I've sworn off SOE games, so I haven't been following EQN. But storybricks sounds interesting. If they can add just a little life into NPC's that would be an improvement.
Also, checked out Storybricks web site and it say's they are working with multiple game companies, so hopeful other games may benefit from this.
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
Specifically rats? Or just "generic starting crittur" (say, wolf or boar or murloc or...)
Giganticus Rattus was the traditional favorite L1 target for hundeds of fantasy-flavored games from D&D clear through MUDs. :shrug: More a weight-of-accumulated-legend than actual quest description for a specific title.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
After seeing how long it took SOE to reign in the hackers on Planetside 2 I think I may have to pass on this, at least until they get things sorted out from launch or offer a Pay-Only (Legends) server type, preferably with PvP enabled.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
LOTRO apparently has a quest to kill 10 rats in Isengard Keep.
Dark Ages (an older MMO) had a quest to kill 10 rats, I remember that one because it was my first MMO.
There's a quest in Rift in the Necropolis to kill 10 rats also.
And those are the ones I found in about 3 minutes of research. There are a few not even worth mentioning like Endless Online.
Right, but how many of those are instances of self-awareness?
Did the event create the meme or did the meme create the event. (10 rats specifically, not kill X quests in general of course)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
Specifically rats? Or just "generic starting crittur" (say, wolf or boar or murloc or...)
Giganticus Rattus was the traditional favorite L1 target for hundeds of fantasy-flavored games from D&D clear through MUDs. :shrug: More a weight-of-accumulated-legend than actual quest description for a specific title.
If people said "Kill 10 Beasts" that would be plenty generic and not be so funny to me. But they use "rats" specifically (not wolves, or boars, or murlocs.)
Even if beasts is too generic there are tons of "Kill 10 boars" quests in games.
Even with the examples of killing 10 rats people have mentioned in this thread, the point still stands that it's referring to something rather rare and not common like beasts or boars.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
EQNext will be monetizing player creations. That will be major part of it's business model. After all what else you monetize in sandbox when entire sandbox concept rely on players creations (when you define it very widely).
So EQNext monetization tiers will be more or less like:
1. Selling premium 'bricks' that will be used by players to crate content.
2. Selling standard mmorpg cash shop items.
3. Offering way for players to sell their "physical" game crations like i.e. houses they design. Part of revenue go to players.
4. Offering a way for players to make their own cash shp items and sell it through SOE cash shop (of course it will need to be qualifed y SOE employers and miniooruty will be) and players will get part of revenue - with possibility to convert to real world money. see: https://player-studio.soe.com/
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
It's like this scapegoat stereotype that everyone insults, but never actually exists. Bizarre and hilarious.
wow. how do you not realize that the "rats" are a stand-in for ANY type of mob?
I still think it's hilarious how often "Kill 10 rats" gets mentioned, and how I can't really think of a single MMORPG that actually has a quest where you kill 10 rats. WAR maybe?
Specifically rats? Or just "generic starting crittur" (say, wolf or boar or murloc or...)
Giganticus Rattus was the traditional favorite L1 target for hundeds of fantasy-flavored games from D&D clear through MUDs. :shrug: More a weight-of-accumulated-legend than actual quest description for a specific title.
If people said "Kill 10 Beasts" that would be plenty generic and not be so funny to me. But they use "rats" specifically (not wolves, or boars, or murlocs.)
Even if beasts is too generic there are tons of "Kill 10 boars" quests in games.
Even with the examples of killing 10 rats people have mentioned in this thread, the point still stands that it's referring to something rather rare and not common like beasts or boars.
wow, the whole concept seems to fly over your head somehow.
clue: the phrase was not meant to refer to anything specific.... in fact its very deliberately meant to NOT be specific.
its the same as
"kill X of Y"
with some concrete examples plugged in.
if they said "kill 56 boars" would that also throw you off? cuz you've never seen one asking you to kill that specific number before?
You're being too literal about that. "Kill ten rats" is just a generic way of refering to the innumerable, trivial quests dumped on people by games in which progress is primarily quest driven.
In a similar way, some folks might remember when spawn camping was sometimes refered to as "whack a mole" gameplay. Because you were sitting there waiting for the same mobs to respawn over and over so you could kill them over and over. But when people called it "whack a mole" they didn't literally mean that we were killing moles.
Whack-a-mole is like "fedex quest". It's clearly a saying.
If I used "deliver this hairbrush quests" to refer to all delivery quests, it's not clearly a saying and actually makes less sense. Whereas "delivery quest" is simple and generic, "fedex quest" is clearly a saying, and even "deliver this package quests" are at least the most common type of delivery quest and therefore make sense.
But delivering hairbrushes?!? That doesn't even make sense. Nor do rats.
Yeah, ok, but that's the way people use it.
We could try to analyse why "rats" are used in the saying but that would likely turn into a huge nerdtastic pissing contest and I don't think I want to bother with it. Suffice it to say that it's a way of belittling that type of gameplay.
It's used as a representative example of a certain type of gameplay. It's used as a way to refer to that type of gameplay. If you don't like it don't get mad at me. That's just the way it is.
I mean, clearly, when developers (and most other people) talk about the typical "kill ten rats" type of quests/gameplay they aren't JUST talking about quests which specifically involve killing ten rats.
Did anyone else reading this thread not understand that?
lol no
i'd be surprised if anyone else didn't clearly understand the phrase. its strange cuz Axehilt sometimes brings up some fairly intelligent points on certain topics. but this is just....... wow.
it will be interesting to see him comment further with some wordy posts on the subject. 8)
Comments
Ok i read it lol.
It seems some bad misconceptions in there.They like to talk about table top games,but these are MMO's not table top games.They also are sort of leaning towards more of a single player game experience than a MMO.They should realize that a players actions are SUPPOSE to interact with the game world,it is not suppose to be your own little storyline.The reason is simple,your own storyline is what removes you from the MMO world and that is a contradiction to why we make a MMO game.
This Storybricks team talks a big talk like game world changing events,but in reality are talking nothing more than having NPC's act a little more life like.
We already had this in games years ago,like MnM/Wizardry ect ect.This could carry a lot of depth or simply use a few scripted scenarios ,really nothing different than what SWTOR did allowing you 3 choices.The only difference is that instead of seeing 3 choices on the screen under a/ b/ c / they are hidden within the Ai acript.What i am saying is it can actually be done in a cheap mannerism and what i would expect.
The article mentions the greatness of unscripted AI,but truth is it MUST be scripted,NPC's cannot think for themselves.
Yes it can be at least a beginners step in the right direction to giving us more life like NPC's.However i feel the first wave of this has already been done and i doubt we will see much more than a few scripted scnearios for each NPC.
The older game examples i mentioned did it pretty good.They operated under KEYWORDs or phrases.They would also venture around the game world,not visually but through scripted code they would bounce around various parts of the game world.
There might be some real secret hidden within EQ:Next's design ,but so far i have seen nothing to convince me.I don't blame them for keeping it a secret,i would also.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think you are confusing things. When scripted is referred to it means in the case of a movie script, not programming. You go to an NPC, a long paragraph of text is written out for you to go and get a specific thing and come back. Everyone who plays the game does the same the quest. This article is basically talking about a procedual AI that adapts on who you are as a character and by what you do in relation to that specific NPC.
Lol, almost spilled my coffee over this. SO TRUE! XD
I mean, I really like the text about this theory. And I agree to everything they say. But how this ever can be implemented into a MMO is beyond me. NPCs would need to be VIs (Virtual Intelligences), and the database to memorize all the doings would be immense!
I would even be happy with something in between. Like when I send the kid to the Sith Academy, he later wants revenger or later is thankful. Or the Captain of the Starship which I kill and some relative comes "I am Inigo Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die!". Something along these lines. God, SWTOR had SO MANY lofty promises the game would remember and consequences. And ALL of it was bla bla. I was SO let down that nothing even in the slightest was implemented into it, and I could have been the most evil laughterer as Jedi or the greatest Saint as BH, and nobody ever cared AT ALL. That was just sad and ridiculous. I mean, at least a variable that checks the light/dark alignment and the reputation among certain groups could be implemented into SOME conversations, but no.
I'd love to see at least some more reaction to what I did and what I said. It doesn't have to be all the time and too much, but yes, I agree this is indeed one of the most important next steps in MMOs. I too always dreamed how MMos of the future would be more like Tabletop Games. At least somewhat, and given how vast UO and SWG where, games rather devolved to mere action shooters with story. And while millions went into graphics, practially nothing was put into more intelligent and interesting game systems.
It's a great article, but I am somewhat doubtful we are ever gonna see that.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Huh !
Good luck with that one.
try sandboxes
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I actually tested "Storybricks" a while ago before they started working together with SOE.
I understand that people are very reluctant to believe the article.
Though having tested the software I can attest that SB does what it says it does.
I'm also not sure how much NDA I'm still under so I won't go into too much detail.
The versions I played around with were very crude and definatly not packaged in a way that your lowest common denominator could work with it. But the method they developed works.
The question isn't can Storybricks deliver, the question is can SOE deliver.
Rats just need rat poison or terriers.
Boar also breed prodigiously and are (if cornered) a considerable danger.
This is part of the problem with the themepark quest: 2 different situations become equivalent.
Eg rat-catcher Boar hunter both become homogenised activities.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
If there's one thing I've learned from SOE is to take everything they say early with a grain or two of salt. EQ2 is my main experience for this. I was one of the EQ players who resisted WoW and went EQ2. Lots of underdelivering.
That said, I'll give eq3 a shot, definitely. I just am not going to get my hopes up.
EQ2 used to offer rare mats in the cash shop, and still have spell upgrades for cash.
You don't flat out buy spell upgrades. There is a feature provided to everyone once you are level 20 that allows you to "research" one spell at a time to the next tier. The time it takes depends on the level of the spell and can take hours to days at later levels. There is an option to "speed up" the process for SC but I'm not sure what it does or if there is a cooldown as I have never used it.
It's worth noting you can get the all the spell upgrades in the game normally and as a free player up to expert.
You click upgrade ( buy the upgrade ) and it upgrades your spell using your sc that you bought with real money, can't be any clearer than that.
Thanks to the OP for pointing this stuff out. As a bitter SWG vet I've sworn off SOE games, so I haven't been following EQN. But storybricks sounds interesting. If they can add just a little life into NPC's that would be an improvement.
Also, checked out Storybricks web site and it say's they are working with multiple game companies, so hopeful other games may benefit from this.
Specifically rats? Or just "generic starting crittur" (say, wolf or boar or murloc or...)
Giganticus Rattus was the traditional favorite L1 target for hundeds of fantasy-flavored games from D&D clear through MUDs. :shrug: More a weight-of-accumulated-legend than actual quest description for a specific title.Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
Right, but how many of those are instances of self-awareness?
Did the event create the meme or did the meme create the event. (10 rats specifically, not kill X quests in general of course)
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
So? The game is F2P, so i lose little to give it 30min to try out.
Very few games, or for that matter, any entertainment, that is truly amazing. I will settle for just good fun. If not, the world would be very boring.
If people said "Kill 10 Beasts" that would be plenty generic and not be so funny to me. But they use "rats" specifically (not wolves, or boars, or murlocs.)
Even if beasts is too generic there are tons of "Kill 10 boars" quests in games.
Even with the examples of killing 10 rats people have mentioned in this thread, the point still stands that it's referring to something rather rare and not common like beasts or boars.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
EQNext will be monetizing player creations. That will be major part of it's business model. After all what else you monetize in sandbox when entire sandbox concept rely on players creations (when you define it very widely).
So EQNext monetization tiers will be more or less like:
1. Selling premium 'bricks' that will be used by players to crate content.
2. Selling standard mmorpg cash shop items.
3. Offering way for players to sell their "physical" game crations like i.e. houses they design. Part of revenue go to players.
4. Offering a way for players to make their own cash shp items and sell it through SOE cash shop (of course it will need to be qualifed y SOE employers and miniooruty will be) and players will get part of revenue - with possibility to convert to real world money. see: https://player-studio.soe.com/
Have fun.
wow. how do you not realize that the "rats" are a stand-in for ANY type of mob?
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wow, the whole concept seems to fly over your head somehow.
clue: the phrase was not meant to refer to anything specific.... in fact its very deliberately meant to NOT be specific.
its the same as
"kill X of Y"
with some concrete examples plugged in.
if they said "kill 56 boars" would that also throw you off? cuz you've never seen one asking you to kill that specific number before?
how is this not EXTREMELY OBVIOUS?
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lol no
i'd be surprised if anyone else didn't clearly understand the phrase. its strange cuz Axehilt sometimes brings up some fairly intelligent points on certain topics. but this is just....... wow.
it will be interesting to see him comment further with some wordy posts on the subject. 8)
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the new version of Freeport is horrible!
as long as they are going to so extensively re-arrange the layout, they should have made it into a proper city!
instead its just a HD, and DIFFERENT version of the zone with all the original problems of it still in tact (if not worse, cuz its bigger).
its still very mazey, hard to memorize, and has a totally nonsensicle layout. and you have to learn it all over again from scratch pretty much.
it's so obviously unrealistic as a functional city that it jumps out at you, without any effort put into conscious analysis.
and despite the upgrade in textures and poly counts, its still ugly IMO
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