One thing that drives me crazy is how they blatantly shorted us storage and offered more for cash. That seemed shady.
For what?
Oh he must got this confussed with another MMORPG, can't be talking about the one where I unlocked two storage spots for gold.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Originally posted by bcbully There's been some really good post in this thread. Thank you for staying on topic, for the most part
Hey BCBULLY-
First off, I commend you on your post. I remember you vividly saying many anti-GW2 comments both before and after the release, but I really find the simplicity of how you asked the question to be a good, long-term "How goes it for folks" question, and I respect that.
Briefly, I was a fan before release, got tired as I got to 80, chilled for a while and didn't play the game for about 1 month, and have since been playing it pretty heavily. A couple things factored into this for me, as I will detail below.
1. GW2 does pve combat much differently than wow. I love this. I love the action combat and combo fields. Did I mention that I LOVE combo-fields? The depth that these 2 things alone bring to the game make me love it.
2. The thing that bores me most in the game is the leveling to 80. I don't see a need for levels and I feel the devs did this to add longevity to "grind/end-game" players.
3. Initially (ie, before level 60), I didn't feel that builds were exciting. It took until really level 80 for me to see how complex traits can be. It took me longer after that to realize just how much adding a specific gear set does to making a certain trait build even more effective.
4. I'm not satisfied with weapon abilities right now. I like that you can pick from different weapons, but they need to add more skills per weapon to choose from. I realize that like GW1 they will add more in as the game grows, but I am still disappointed right now with the choice selection here.
5. The first dungeon I played I didn't know what the heck was going on. It was chaotic (at least for me). After I hit dungeon 3 I settled into a rhythm, and I absolutely love the dungeons in this game way more than WoW (personal opinion here). You cant run into a group of mobs and stay there and live for more than 3 seconds in this game. It is a series of attack, fall back, focus fire, combo/burst down a target, and repeat.
I would also say I adore the puzzle elements that they have put in these dungeons (especially the fractals that I have done!). Pressure plates simultaneously to open doors, white-outs where you must pick up torches and light fires... I could go on, but I really miss that from consul games when I played wow. The best wow had was BRD, where you unlocked the wheel and lit some torches to get to the end.
That about sums it up for me, with my post mortum analysis for what I still like about gw2 and what I think needs to be improved.
To answer the question, is it different [enough] from WoW? I'd say a resounding yes, that no trinity (yay!), the action combat, the puzzle nature and different feel of dungeons is just a great change of pace from wow.
That being said, I also look forward to WildStar and the raiding WITH action combat that they plan.
Honestly for me, GW2 has given me almost everything i look for in MMO’s. Fun leveling, awesome armor sets, skinning your armor, voice acting, beautiful graphics, no more repetitive quests, epic WvWvW, crafting exp, and the nostalgic feeling of exploring.
But what my title states, is that i can no longer play any MMO that follows the gruesome quest log, collecting quests, and so on! I’ve been raised to believe all of that is standard and the only way to enjoy MMO’s. But Guild Wars has changed my outlook on online gaming. I know some of you may not fully agree with what i am going say, but Guild Wars 2 has revolutionized MMO gaming, for me at least.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
(mind I no longer play WoW. But I miss something likes gear progression or something that could keep me playing.
Means you can quit at 80? since you have completed the game...
Seriously who came up with this no endgame lie is funny. It is same like other games you reach 80 then you start grinding mobs for skills + you are grinding doungens + doing a few spvp's to not loose fun on this repeatable pve stuff.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
It is not "Super Mario" which is over when you kill the last boss, it's a MMORPG. Something WoW and its clones made people forget about. The whole concept of "end game" hurt the whole genre more than any other element introduced by EQ/WoW clones. Some of us played more than those clones though, games like UO, AC1, games without that stupid "end game" threadmill, game which just don't end.
Saying that the game ends at 80 is typical from people who totally misunderstood what the game is all about.
Yes, I will dare to say it again: you played it wrong.
I am playing it wrong?
How dare you. You don't know how I'm playing this game. I am not into silly puzzles, or just zerging to spots to "explorer" some totally useless spots.
When I went to 80, theres nothing more to do than some few events, get legendary, then log off, for me.
I like getting stronger. I'm not a fan of using too much time getting better. But I mind having a carrot.
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
Originally posted by observer
Originally posted by MikeJezZ
it is not like WoW.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
(mind I no longer play WoW. But I miss something likes gear progression or something that could keep me playing.
Endgame can mean many different things though.
In WoW, endgame is: Dailies, World Bosses, Dungeons/Raids, RBGs/BGs, and Arenas, etc.
In GW2, endgame is: Dailies, World Bosses, Guild Content, Exploration, Dungeons, WvW, SPvP (obtaining ranks), etc.
What you want is a gear treadmill, so stop trying to equate that with "endgame".
Yeah both has the same, except for a carrot. And that is enough for me. I like being rewarded for time playing.
And I am not a zealot without a job that plays 14 hours a day.
I hate how long the grind takes in WoW. I would love something in between.
That everything you could do in the end leads to some progression.
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
(mind I no longer play WoW. But I miss something likes gear progression or something that could keep me playing.
Means you can quit at 80? since you have completed the game...
Seriously who came up with this no endgame lie is funny. It is same like other games you reach 80 then you start grinding mobs for skills + you are grinding doungens + doing a few spvp's to not loose fun on this repeatable pve stuff.
Grinding mobs for skills is incredibly boring.
Tell me. Grinding for gear is boring. But grinding for useless skillpoints are fun?
But, why?
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
(mind I no longer play WoW. But I miss something likes gear progression or something that could keep me playing.
Endgame can mean many different things though.
In WoW, endgame is: Dailies, World Bosses, Dungeons/Raids, RBGs/BGs, and Arenas, etc.
In GW2, endgame is: Dailies, World Bosses, Guild Content, Exploration, Dungeons, WvW, SPvP (obtaining ranks), etc.
What you want is a gear treadmill, so stop trying to equate that with "endgame".
Yeah both has the same, except for a carrot. And that is enough for me. I like being rewarded for time playing.
And I am not a zealot without a job that plays 14 hours a day.
I hate how long the grind takes in WoW. I would love something in between.
That everything you could do in the end leads to some progression.
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
Your post is all over the place.
I'm just stating that you're equating endgame with one particular aspect (progression) of an MMO, which is wrong. There are forms of progression in GW2, but you don't like them, which is fine, but to deny it is not being truthful.
GW2 has ranks for SPvP.
GW2 has progression for WvW.
GW2 has titles to obtain.
GW2 has guild "perks" to obtain.
GW2 has achievements to obtain.
etc
The same things were said of Swtor too, and swtor has endgame activities, as do most MMOs. People, such as yourself, just think progression is about gear, with character stats, obtained from raids.
It's been awhile since I posted in this forum. Before the launch I railed against the hype. After launch I loved the game for 3 weeks.
Since then I've seen many columns dedicated to the progress of GW2. From the fringe I've read about dungeons, dailies, WvW fixes. and mini-games.
To those still playing-
Do you feel that GW2 has broken away for the WoW formula? If so, it what ways?
Do you feel GW2 has become more like WoW? If so, in what ways?
1.) The game is still not gear-centric. There may be a shift in mechanics regarding Fractals, but the gear threadmill is isolated and contained only to those doing fractals. I am in no way restricted to entering any place because of my lack of gear.
2.) The game still has no hard trinity. Finding groups is still easy and I still don't have to give way to Tanks and Healers.
I'm just stating that you're equating endgame with one particular aspect (progression) of an MMO, which is wrong. There are forms of progression in GW2, but you don't like them, which is fine, but to deny it is not being truthful.
GW2 has ranks for SPvP.
GW2 has progression for WvW.
GW2 has titles to obtain.
GW2 has guild "perks" to obtain.
GW2 has achievements to obtain.
etc
The same things were said of Swtor too, and swtor has endgame activities, as do most MMOs. People, such as yourself, just think progression is about gear with character stats obtained from raids.
AFAIK, it is easy to get legendary, like you can get it VERY fast, which is not bad... but what to do after?
sPvP ranks yeah. But it doesnt do much other than giving you a chance for bettter looking cosmetic gear.
Progression for WvW is more levels than gear.
Im not interested in titles
Not interested in guild perks
Same with achievements.
I like to feel I get stronger at every level and when I obtain new gear. I dont feel that in GW2.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
It is not "Super Mario" which is over when you kill the last boss, it's a MMORPG. Something WoW and its clones made people forget about. The whole concept of "end game" hurt the whole genre more than any other element introduced by EQ/WoW clones. Some of us played more than those clones though, games like UO, AC1, games without that stupid "end game" threadmill, game which just don't end.
Saying that the game ends at 80 is typical from people who totally misunderstood what the game is all about, people who tried to play this like another WoW clone because they most likely don't know any better and never played anything different.
Yes, I will dare to say it again: you played it wrong.
Comparing UO to those other games isn't quite fair as it is a sandbox and not a themepark. The problem with GW2 for a lot of people (as I see it anyway) is that there is nothing of consequence after reaching max level. The downlevelling is of no consequence as repeating content with nothing to gain becomes boring. The same applies to killing world bosses, doing dungeons, or even the PvP. Once you have seen and done the content, there is little to encourage or interest the average player to keep doing the content. The lack of progression with tangible results is a turn-off for some people. Other things like a game wide auction house also detract from the end game experience. I know lots of people that play MMOs for crafting alone and like to try to corner the market on their server for certain goods and earn a reputation. This also is not a viable option. Like you, I believe that GW2 is a good game, but I also understand why people feel the way they do and why the game may not hold the longevity or be the "main" game for a lot of people.
As far as the "you played it wrong" comment, I would be more apt to say that GW2 isn't able to be played the way that you want it to be. The system they designed is not a flexible one, and it appeals to a certain group of players. You really shouldn't bash someone because they don't fall into that group.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Originally posted by Volkon Definitely GW2 is the not-WoW. Removing the treadmill, different trinity-free combat style, content remaining viable regardless of character level, lack of the quest-bang packed quest hubs, continual content updates monthly at no charge, living, breathing world (as opposed to static quest based world)... they've walked away from the WoW formula and are enjoying the cashflow as a result.
You have to understand why certain things appeal to people - and that "grind" or "hard work" is the essence behind any reward system. It's about psychology.
Are you talking about people or hamster in a cage running on a threadmill?
I like my MMORPGs fun and played with good company - my guild and friends - and not a second job. I understand that there are "people" who like to be "hamsterized" by games, just don't try and pretend everybody is like that.
Originally posted by DKLond
But, in practice, the idea isn't as good as so many people keep insisting it is. It SHOULD be in their minds - but it's really not.
What an arrogant little hamster we have here. So you know better than other people what they enjoy or not, what they think is good or not? Do you realize what you just wrote here? You sound like one of those extremists who hold the one and only truth... reality check, you know nothing.
You can call working towards something you want running a hamster wheel if you want. If that's what you're doing when you're working on your legendary in GW2 or your next skin - or your crafting progress - then you're running on a hamster wheel. I don't really mind that you think of yourself that way.
I'm talking about basic human psychology and how it works in relation to rewards.
If you're being handed rewards with minimal effort - the rewards will tend to feel less rewarding. It's pretty simple.
It's too much of a good thing - and it's like getting 1000 presents at Christmas instead of 5. You know? If you have 1000 presents - you'll be sick of them by the time you open your 500th present. They don't feel as special and you can't really decide what you want to play with.
See? Ultra basic psychology. This applies to ALL human beings on the planet. So, it's not me being psychic. The thing I'm arguing is that GW2 went too far. It's nothing but my opinion.
I'm talking about a balance between the effort you put into something and the reward you get when you're done.
In my opinion, GW2 reduced the effort - and they reduced the rewards by making them about vanity and not power. Though, naturally, it does have power-rewards as well.
The end result is a watered down reward system requiring less effort. Some people enjoy that - and you apparently enjoy running on the GW2 hamster wheel, as you call it. That's fair enough.
As for me being an extremist and a hamster - I'm afraid I don't agree.
I'm not the one meticulously replying to EVERY SINGLE post that doesn't say exclusively good things about my favorite game. I'm not on a religious crusade - and I can disagree without going overboard.
I don't have to talk down to people to make my point - and as far as I'm concerned, that's a major warning sign that you're being irrationally attached to your position.
Yes, I really think that some people are overestimating how brilliant the GW2 ideas are. But, as I said, that's just my opinion. I think some people got attached to the GW2 manifesto - much like ArenaNet did - and they're clinging to it like it can't possibly be flawed. If I'm arrogant for believing so - then so be it. You seem to be the perfect example with your exceedingly fierce defense of the game in every single thread. It's a little disturbing in some ways
A lot of people seem to be able to enjoy GW2 without thinking it's flawless - and they're much more interesting to exchange with.
It's been awhile since I posted in this forum. Before the launch I railed against the hype. After launch I loved the game for 3 weeks.
Since then I've seen many columns dedicated to the progress of GW2. From the fringe I've read about dungeons, dailies, WvW fixes. and mini-games.
To those still playing-
Do you feel that GW2 has broken away for the WoW formula? If so, it what ways?
Do you feel GW2 has become more like WoW? If so, in what ways?
1.) The game is still not gear-centric. There may be a shift in mechanics regarding Fractals, but the gear threadmill is isolated and contained only to those doing fractals. I am in no way restricted to entering any place because of my lack of gear.
2.) The game still has no hard trinity. Finding groups is still easy and I still don't have to give way to Tanks and Healers.
Overall still an awesome game.
I would say these two points pretty well sum things up. I'll also add that obtaining Exotics is a fairly easy process, considering that you can obtain exotics in whichever avenue you choose. Whether it be crafting, karma, trade post, wvw, dungeons. The only gear "progression" that exists in in Fractals with Agony Resistance, and again it pertains to just that portion of the game (like Khin said).
GW2 isn't perfect by any means, but I am finding the changes are nice and a break away from the norm.
Yes, I really think that some people are overestimating how brilliant the GW2 ideas are. But, as I said, that's just my opinion.
Your opinion makes you an arrogant person who thinks he knows better than everyone else what's "good for them", just like extremists in "real life" are. If someone thinks GW2 is brilliant, who are you to dispute his opinion? Are you also doing the same to people who like specific food, or are part of a specific religion, or whatever else?
The answer is simple. You are nobody. In "real life", people like you oppress those who don't think like they do, because they think their opinion is "god sent", but thankfully this doesn't work on the Internet.
I think GW2 is the best MMORPG release since Asheron's Call 1. You can kiss the darkest part of my lily white if you don't agree. Enjoy that and chew on it, I know it's going to be a hard bone for you to accept.
Why these fantasy scenarios and strawmen? Is that something you have to invent to feel better about yourself?
I don't believe I've mentioned what's good for other people. I believe I've said they're overestimating the brilliance of a game. In that same way, I think Avatar is an overrated movie.
I'm disputing an opinion because I disagree with it. That's what happens when you participate on a public forum dedicated to discussing games that people don't agree on.
That's not the same as oppression - though I can see how you would think that if you're particularly sensitive and can't really handle opposing opinions and being challenged.
I have no doubt that you think I'm "nobody" - it sort of fits with how you present yourself in general.
So, thank you for demonstrating your fanaticism and supporting what I'm saying about some of the GW2 fans - who can't quite articulate their opinion without insults and who can't quite accept opposite points of view without calling those who hold them arrogant and extremist nobodies. Oh, and hamsters - right?
Want to know what game started out in the "WoW mold" but evolved into something completely different from what it started out as? It's a game called World of Warcraft.
There is no WoW mold people. Every game has changed. Even Rift. That game started as probably the most successful game that most closely replicated the model. And by the end of it's vanilla release, it had become nothing like WoW. Oddly enough, Rift is closer to the original WoW than WoW itself currently is. And neither really resemble it all that closely now anyway.
Why are MMO players so obsessed with WoW? Why can't we just find concepts and mechanics that work and use them while losing the ones that don't work and we don't like and not care about who used them previously? So what if ANET didn't "invent" dynamic events? So what if other games used them (or not)? Take what works and use it and improve on it. I'm going to be honest. I think one of ANET's biggest mistakes is that they tried too hard to NOT be WoW so much so that they avoided many things that would have worked with a bit of refinement. Instead, they tried to re-invent too many wheels.
I'll tell you what. If they had copied some things from WoW and it was for the better, you can sit there and shout "WoW clone" til you're blue in the face. I wouldn't care because I'd be too busy enjoying it.
In some ways GW2 is more WoW then WoW itself. You don't even have to have a chat bar in GW2 as there's no reason to ever say anything to anyone in that game. You don't have to grab quests or even min max gear and keybinds for raids.
GW2 is actually more themepark then WoW is. Never thought that would happen.
Comparing UO to those other games isn't quite fair as it is a sandbox and not a themepark.
Did you really read what I posted? I was comparing one feature of UO. Neither in UO nor in GW2 does the game begin at max level, unlike all the EQ/WoW clones.
And by the way... how can you pretend being a judge on sandboxes and theme parks with what you regularly post here? You are the prototype of theme park raid grind player. Your post history clearly shows it. Give us a break, will you? -1
You have no idea what games I have played. SWG happens to be my favorite game and I also love UO. I have also done my fair share of raiding and played themeparks. Don't speak about what you have no idea. I always speak out in favor of sandboxes.
The problem with GW2 for a lot of people (as I see it anyway) is that there is nothing of consequence after reaching max level. The downlevelling is of no consequence as repeating content with nothing to gain becomes boring. The same applies to killing world bosses, doing dungeons, or even the PvP. Once you have seen and done the content, there is little to encourage or interest the average player to keep doing the content. The lack of progression with tangible results is a turn-off for some people.
Tangible results? Purple items that become obsolete each new patch/raid? Talk about worthless items, talk about a waste of time. At least in GW2, once I found the gear I like, I know it won't become useless next patch. -1
Sure they are tangible results. As I level I get stronger. I get better gear. I feel a sense of progression. What is so hard about that to understand. It doesn't even have to be a gear treadmill. There is just a lack of a sense of progression. I am not "bashing" you for what you like, I just merely proposed a reason for why so many people may feel that there is no endgame or real sense of progression to keep them engaged. You are the one who took it offensively.
Other things like a game wide auction house also detract from the end game experience. I know lots of people that play MMOs for crafting alone and like to try to corner the market on their server for certain goods and earn a reputation. This also is not a viable option.
A guildie of mine has over 500g on his name just playing the AH and cornering the market. Don't limit what's possible to the limits of your own imagination. A game wide AH actually avoids smaller servers to have crazy high prices for common goods, which harms all players on that server. I hope more games will adopt that model in the future.
This is your opinion. I know lots of people who prefer a server style as each server develops its own market. It creates more of a community environment.
Like you, I believe that GW2 is a good game, but I also understand why people feel the way they do and why the game may not hold the longevity or be the "main" game for a lot of people.
Since every single post of yours is bashing GW2, I really don't want to read anything from you about a game you really dislike then. -1
Not every post I make is bashing it. There are some where state it is a good game. It just didn't hit the mark with me. I personally don't care what you want to read. I come here to discuss games. GW2 is far from perfect and I am not afraid to admit it. My favorite game was SWG, and I will be the first to admit its shortcomings. I also didn't bash people for having an opinion or posting about it. One of us is a little sensitive and it isn't me......
As far as the "you played it wrong" comment, I would be more apt to say that GW2 isn't able to be played the way that you want it to be. The system they designed is not a flexible one, and it appeals to a certain group of players. You really shouldn't bash someone because they don't fall into that group.
No game can be played exactly the way you want to, not even sandbox games. Try to play chess like you play checkers, and prepare for defeat. GW2 is still more flexible than any EQ/WoW clone, because unlike those games, GW2 does NOT force you into a single play style when comes that damned thing people name "end game". And telling someone he played it wrong isn't bashing. If I saw someone play chess like checkers, I'd also tell him that he's playing it wrong. Keep your indignation for when people really insult each other. -1
Again you commit another logical fallacy. I didn't say that the other games allowed you to be more flexible than GW2. They system in GW2 is different and doesn't suit some play styles.
You really need to ease up a little. Not everyone is going to like everything about your "precious" game. None of the things I stated are wrong as it was my opinon and conjecture. I am glad that you have found a game that you love. I just don't happen to love it as much as you. Some of the mechanics are not to my liking. While I state things and reasons as to why parts of the game were not to my liking, you feel the need to bash me for having an opinion. I hope you have a nice day and that youcan find some time to play that game you love so much instead of bashing people who do not share your opinion.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Why these fantasy scenarios and strawmen? Is that something you have to invent to feel better about yourself?
I don't believe I've mentioned what's good for other people. I believe I've said they're overestimating the brilliance of a game. In that same way, I think Avatar is an overrated movie.
So that I can't be accused of making up things, I'm gonna quote your original post again:
Originally posted by DKLond
So, in the end, GW2 was a great idea in theory and it's executed very well. But, in practice, the idea isn't as good as so many people keep insisting it is. It SHOULD be in their minds - but it's really not.
So if people enjoy GW2, it's only in their minds, in your little arrogant opinion. Gotcha.
Same goes for people enjoying Avatar, by the way. You not liking the movie doesn't make those people's opinion wrong. Read my signature. Actually, those people so wrong about Avatar are the majority, by the way.
Yes, people enjoy GW2 a lot, and they are NOT overestimating anything. It's just that the game is made for them, and not for you. Your lack of tolerance for things you don't like doesn't make those things bad.
You may think you're so superior to the average human IN YOUR MIND - but you're not
Yes, if I think a movie is overrated - then it's better in the minds of the people who like it that much - than I think it is. Are you telling me you don't understand what these simple things mean?
It doesn't mean I'm oppressing people - it means I disagree and that I think they're overestimating the movie.
That doesn't make me arrogant - it makes me a person who disagrees with them.
I haven't said anything like people are not enjoying themselves or they're delusional. That's another fantasy scenario in your mind - so you can keep being irrational about your position. You insist on belittling people who disagree with you over and over again. That's your whole approach to criticism. That makes your position weak.
I'm saying they're overstating the quality of the GW2 concepts and that those concepts do have flaws if you open your eyes. THEY can have great fun - but that doesn't mean the ideas are fantastic. You used to have a lot of fun in WoW - for instance - so I guess all the ideas were great? That's silly.
I'm not saying people are wrong - or that I'm right, objectively. Objective truth is not something I can determine. I can just have an opinion about what's right and wrong.
You, however, are clearly telling me in a very factual way that people are not overestimating anything - as if they couldn't possibly be wrong - which is of course those who agree with you.
GW2 isn't made for them and not for me. It's just a game that people can think about what they like. My tolerance has nothing to do with it. My preferences have something to do with it.
I'm not superior or inferior. I'm just a human being with an opinion.
It's as if you think you're convincing when you keep saying the same things over and over. Unfortunately, you're having the opposite effect. The more you insist on being irrational - the less convincing you become.
But please go on - I'd love to hear more convincing stuff about how GW2 is fantastic and people who agree with you can't be wrong. I don't think it's all THAT good - just pretty good in some ways and bad in others. That means I'm wrong or intolerant. That's pretty amusing
I suppose you have the right to be that silly - but I have the right not to take you seriously. Which comes pretty easily the more you talk
Sure they are tangible results. As I level I get stronger. I get better gear. I feel a sense of progression. What is so hard about that to understand. It doesn't even have to be a gear treadmill. There is just a lack of a sense of progression. I am not "bashing" you for what you like, I just merely proposed a reason for why so many people may feel that there is no endgame or real sense of progression to keep them engaged. You are the one who took it offensively.
The tangible results are only in your own mind. As I said, when the next raid is released, your actual gear will be obsolete, crap, a pile of junk, and you will have to grind all over again. All those people who follow that famous "gear carrot" are only slaves of their own minds, victims of the attraction of virtual power and gear in a video game. At the end of the day, as I said, that jumping puzzle I just completed for the fun of it doesn't matter less than that purple gear item you got after a month of raiding 3 days a week for 3 hours per night.
I've been there, done that, so I'm not "bashing" people who are like that, but it's a fact. Being a slave of a gear grind doesn't make a game fun - it just forces people to stay subscribed because if they don't, they will fall behind in the gear grind and be unable to participate once they decide to come back. GW2 doesn't do that. That's why it's not a WoW clone, and yes, it broke the WoW clone model, for the greater good of the whole MMORPG genre.
[mod edit]
Why are you trying to dictate what is "fun" to me. Fun is a very subjective thing. By doing so, you prove my point. You do try to force your ideas and beliefs on others. What you find fun might vary greatly from what I do. You are bashing people for what they think is fun and telling them they are wrong. If you think I enjoy raiding for the gear grind then you have it all wrong. I would hazard to say the majority of raiders don't play just for the gear. A lot of people enjoy the teamwork, conversation, and the overcoming adversity with a group of people. They enjoy playing their roles and being good at their in game professions. The gear is just an added benny. In reality, my favorite game had zero raiding, but had a player crafting based economy so raiding isn't a must for me. Gear is a tangible reward. It serves its purpose and increases the power of the character giving a sense of progression. It might not be my preferred method of progression, but it is one.
In GW2, once I have the set I want, what is there left to do? Recycle events? I am mainly a PvE player, but even the PvP is without consequence. You think I hate GW2, but I don't. I still play it. I treat it like a console game. When new content comes out, I play through that content and then shelve it until some more comes along. Is it my favorite game? No. I am only stating some reasons as to why a lot of people most likely complain about the "end game", and I think what I said holds true whether you want to admit it or not.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Oh it broke away alright. It took MMOs into an even crappier direction. We had WoW gives us tank charging through dungeons, now with GW2 everyone tries to zerg every boss like a Keep Lord. Forget the adds or the intended mechanics, just ZERG ZERG ZERG. Because of this, future MMO's are going to have to make healers less healy and tanks less tanky and make everyone equally capable of DPS. I'm afraid GW2 broke the trinity, and any sense of strategy in MMOs, most likely forever.
It's a dying genre, commercial success and art are two different things. When crappy media sells it doesn't mean a media or art is still doing good, it just means there are that many stupid people out there supporting bad products if they stroke their ego enough.
There will be a few titles that try to be more traditional, but as they fail, we'll never see them again.
Any game came break the WoW formula... it's a matter of whether they have the balls to stick with it.
Still no subscription fees... check
Still no trinity... check
Yep, ArenaNet's balls are still intact.
Blizzard on the other hand constantly explain to the playerbase how things didn't go as they expected, how they've learned from this and how they are going to avoid it in the future. That is true... they've found new ways to screw things up with each new patch.
GW2 is making improvements... WoW is running in circles.
GW2 8 months in... WoW 8 years in...
Don't you just love trends?
wow is running in circles while gw2 is making improvements...thats an experts opinion i guess?
hmmm gw2 after only 8 months has ''lost'' how many of the daily player base? maybe half? and its a game you only pay once. imagine this game with a sub? i guess you just cant...
wow after almost 10 years has more than 7m subs. not free or b2p users but subs. can you understant the difference?
and yes, we all love trends
Spot on.
Spot on? Really? That;s why what, over half of those "subs" are Asain players that pay for time and not the entire month so if one wants to play for 1 hour your beloved Blizzard counts them the same as a monthly sub. Guess you fanbois are blinded by the BS that Blizzard keeps spitting out. Spot on, more like a skid mark in a 3 year old under-roos.
Sure they are tangible results. As I level I get stronger. I get better gear. I feel a sense of progression. What is so hard about that to understand. It doesn't even have to be a gear treadmill. There is just a lack of a sense of progression. I am not "bashing" you for what you like, I just merely proposed a reason for why so many people may feel that there is no endgame or real sense of progression to keep them engaged. You are the one who took it offensively.
The tangible results are only in your own mind. As I said, when the next raid is released, your actual gear will be obsolete, crap, a pile of junk, and you will have to grind all over again. All those people who follow that famous "gear carrot" are only slaves of their own minds, victims of the attraction of virtual power and gear in a video game. At the end of the day, as I said, that jumping puzzle I just completed for the fun of it doesn't matter less than that purple gear item you got after a month of raiding 3 days a week for 3 hours per night.
I've been there, done that, so I'm not "bashing" people who are like that, but it's a fact. Being a slave of a gear grind doesn't make a game fun - it just forces people to stay subscribed because if they don't, they will fall behind in the gear grind and be unable to participate once they decide to come back. GW2 doesn't do that. That's why it's not a WoW clone, and yes, it broke the WoW clone model, for the greater good of the whole MMORPG genre.
[mod edit]
Why are you trying to dictate what is "fun" to me. Fun is a very subjective thing. By doing so, you prove my point. You do try to force your ideas and beliefs on others. What you find fun might vary greatly from what I do. You are bashing people for what they think is fun and telling them they are wrong. If you think I enjoy raiding for the gear grind then you have it all wrong. I would hazard to say the majority of raiders don't play just for the gear. A lot of people enjoy the teamwork, conversation, and the overcoming adversity with a group of people. They enjoy playing their roles and being good at their in game professions. The gear is just an added benny. In reality, my favorite game had zero raiding, but had a player crafting based economy so raiding isn't a must for me. Gear is a tangible reward. It serves its purpose and increases the power of the character giving a sense of progression. It might not be my preferred method of progression, but it is one.
In GW2, once I have the set I want, what is there left to do? Recycle events? I am mainly a PvE player, but even the PvP is without consequence. You think I hate GW2, but I don't. I still play it. I treat it like a console game. When new content comes out, I play through that content and then shelve it until some more comes along. Is it my favorite game? No. I am only stating some reasons as to why a lot of people most likely complain about the "end game", and I think what I said holds true whether you want to admit it or not.
So you would enjoy raiding if there wasn't any rewards? No loot. No gear progression?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
Comments
For what?
Oh he must got this confussed with another MMORPG, can't be talking about the one where I unlocked two storage spots for gold.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Hey BCBULLY-
First off, I commend you on your post. I remember you vividly saying many anti-GW2 comments both before and after the release, but I really find the simplicity of how you asked the question to be a good, long-term "How goes it for folks" question, and I respect that.
Briefly, I was a fan before release, got tired as I got to 80, chilled for a while and didn't play the game for about 1 month, and have since been playing it pretty heavily. A couple things factored into this for me, as I will detail below.
1. GW2 does pve combat much differently than wow. I love this. I love the action combat and combo fields. Did I mention that I LOVE combo-fields? The depth that these 2 things alone bring to the game make me love it.
2. The thing that bores me most in the game is the leveling to 80. I don't see a need for levels and I feel the devs did this to add longevity to "grind/end-game" players.
3. Initially (ie, before level 60), I didn't feel that builds were exciting. It took until really level 80 for me to see how complex traits can be. It took me longer after that to realize just how much adding a specific gear set does to making a certain trait build even more effective.
4. I'm not satisfied with weapon abilities right now. I like that you can pick from different weapons, but they need to add more skills per weapon to choose from. I realize that like GW1 they will add more in as the game grows, but I am still disappointed right now with the choice selection here.
5. The first dungeon I played I didn't know what the heck was going on. It was chaotic (at least for me). After I hit dungeon 3 I settled into a rhythm, and I absolutely love the dungeons in this game way more than WoW (personal opinion here). You cant run into a group of mobs and stay there and live for more than 3 seconds in this game. It is a series of attack, fall back, focus fire, combo/burst down a target, and repeat.
I would also say I adore the puzzle elements that they have put in these dungeons (especially the fractals that I have done!). Pressure plates simultaneously to open doors, white-outs where you must pick up torches and light fires... I could go on, but I really miss that from consul games when I played wow. The best wow had was BRD, where you unlocked the wheel and lit some torches to get to the end.
That about sums it up for me, with my post mortum analysis for what I still like about gw2 and what I think needs to be improved.
To answer the question, is it different [enough] from WoW? I'd say a resounding yes, that no trinity (yay!), the action combat, the puzzle nature and different feel of dungeons is just a great change of pace from wow.
That being said, I also look forward to WildStar and the raiding WITH action combat that they plan.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
it is not like WoW.
There's no endgame and at 80 you have completed it.
(mind I no longer play WoW. But I miss something likes gear progression or something that could keep me playing.
Honestly for me, GW2 has given me almost everything i look for in MMO’s. Fun leveling, awesome armor sets, skinning your armor, voice acting, beautiful graphics, no more repetitive quests, epic WvWvW, crafting exp, and the nostalgic feeling of exploring.
But what my title states, is that i can no longer play any MMO that follows the gruesome quest log, collecting quests, and so on! I’ve been raised to believe all of that is standard and the only way to enjoy MMO’s. But Guild Wars has changed my outlook on online gaming. I know some of you may not fully agree with what i am going say, but Guild Wars 2 has revolutionized MMO gaming, for me at least.
Endgame can mean many different things though.
Means you can quit at 80?
since you have completed the game...
Seriously who came up with this no endgame lie is funny. It is same like other games you reach 80 then you start grinding mobs for skills + you are grinding doungens + doing a few spvp's to not loose fun on this repeatable pve stuff.
I am playing it wrong?
How dare you. You don't know how I'm playing this game. I am not into silly puzzles, or just zerging to spots to "explorer" some totally useless spots.
When I went to 80, theres nothing more to do than some few events, get legendary, then log off, for me.
I like getting stronger. I'm not a fan of using too much time getting better. But I mind having a carrot.
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
Grinding mobs for skills is incredibly boring.
Tell me. Grinding for gear is boring. But grinding for useless skillpoints are fun?
But, why?
Keep in mind, that my opinion is not a fact. It is just my opinion. It is fine you defend your game. But I'm just not attracted to a game where there is no carrot. No progression is boring for me. It is not for you and that is allright, we are all different.
Your post is all over the place.
I'm just stating that you're equating endgame with one particular aspect (progression) of an MMO, which is wrong. There are forms of progression in GW2, but you don't like them, which is fine, but to deny it is not being truthful.
1.) The game is still not gear-centric. There may be a shift in mechanics regarding Fractals, but the gear threadmill is isolated and contained only to those doing fractals. I am in no way restricted to entering any place because of my lack of gear.
2.) The game still has no hard trinity. Finding groups is still easy and I still don't have to give way to Tanks and Healers.
Overall still an awesome game.
AFAIK, it is easy to get legendary, like you can get it VERY fast, which is not bad... but what to do after?
sPvP ranks yeah. But it doesnt do much other than giving you a chance for bettter looking cosmetic gear.
Progression for WvW is more levels than gear.
Im not interested in titles
Not interested in guild perks
Same with achievements.
I like to feel I get stronger at every level and when I obtain new gear. I dont feel that in GW2.
Comparing UO to those other games isn't quite fair as it is a sandbox and not a themepark. The problem with GW2 for a lot of people (as I see it anyway) is that there is nothing of consequence after reaching max level. The downlevelling is of no consequence as repeating content with nothing to gain becomes boring. The same applies to killing world bosses, doing dungeons, or even the PvP. Once you have seen and done the content, there is little to encourage or interest the average player to keep doing the content. The lack of progression with tangible results is a turn-off for some people. Other things like a game wide auction house also detract from the end game experience. I know lots of people that play MMOs for crafting alone and like to try to corner the market on their server for certain goods and earn a reputation. This also is not a viable option. Like you, I believe that GW2 is a good game, but I also understand why people feel the way they do and why the game may not hold the longevity or be the "main" game for a lot of people.
As far as the "you played it wrong" comment, I would be more apt to say that GW2 isn't able to be played the way that you want it to be. The system they designed is not a flexible one, and it appeals to a certain group of players. You really shouldn't bash someone because they don't fall into that group.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Yes I tend to agree with this.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
You can call working towards something you want running a hamster wheel if you want. If that's what you're doing when you're working on your legendary in GW2 or your next skin - or your crafting progress - then you're running on a hamster wheel. I don't really mind that you think of yourself that way.
I'm talking about basic human psychology and how it works in relation to rewards.
If you're being handed rewards with minimal effort - the rewards will tend to feel less rewarding. It's pretty simple.
It's too much of a good thing - and it's like getting 1000 presents at Christmas instead of 5. You know? If you have 1000 presents - you'll be sick of them by the time you open your 500th present. They don't feel as special and you can't really decide what you want to play with.
See? Ultra basic psychology. This applies to ALL human beings on the planet. So, it's not me being psychic. The thing I'm arguing is that GW2 went too far. It's nothing but my opinion.
I'm talking about a balance between the effort you put into something and the reward you get when you're done.
In my opinion, GW2 reduced the effort - and they reduced the rewards by making them about vanity and not power. Though, naturally, it does have power-rewards as well.
The end result is a watered down reward system requiring less effort. Some people enjoy that - and you apparently enjoy running on the GW2 hamster wheel, as you call it. That's fair enough.
As for me being an extremist and a hamster - I'm afraid I don't agree.
I'm not the one meticulously replying to EVERY SINGLE post that doesn't say exclusively good things about my favorite game. I'm not on a religious crusade - and I can disagree without going overboard.
I don't have to talk down to people to make my point - and as far as I'm concerned, that's a major warning sign that you're being irrationally attached to your position.
Yes, I really think that some people are overestimating how brilliant the GW2 ideas are. But, as I said, that's just my opinion. I think some people got attached to the GW2 manifesto - much like ArenaNet did - and they're clinging to it like it can't possibly be flawed. If I'm arrogant for believing so - then so be it. You seem to be the perfect example with your exceedingly fierce defense of the game in every single thread. It's a little disturbing in some ways
A lot of people seem to be able to enjoy GW2 without thinking it's flawless - and they're much more interesting to exchange with.
I would say these two points pretty well sum things up. I'll also add that obtaining Exotics is a fairly easy process, considering that you can obtain exotics in whichever avenue you choose. Whether it be crafting, karma, trade post, wvw, dungeons. The only gear "progression" that exists in in Fractals with Agony Resistance, and again it pertains to just that portion of the game (like Khin said).
GW2 isn't perfect by any means, but I am finding the changes are nice and a break away from the norm.
Why these fantasy scenarios and strawmen? Is that something you have to invent to feel better about yourself?
I don't believe I've mentioned what's good for other people. I believe I've said they're overestimating the brilliance of a game. In that same way, I think Avatar is an overrated movie.
I'm disputing an opinion because I disagree with it. That's what happens when you participate on a public forum dedicated to discussing games that people don't agree on.
That's not the same as oppression - though I can see how you would think that if you're particularly sensitive and can't really handle opposing opinions and being challenged.
I have no doubt that you think I'm "nobody" - it sort of fits with how you present yourself in general.
So, thank you for demonstrating your fanaticism and supporting what I'm saying about some of the GW2 fans - who can't quite articulate their opinion without insults and who can't quite accept opposite points of view without calling those who hold them arrogant and extremist nobodies. Oh, and hamsters - right?
I don't get this "WoW mold" crap.
Want to know what game started out in the "WoW mold" but evolved into something completely different from what it started out as? It's a game called World of Warcraft.
There is no WoW mold people. Every game has changed. Even Rift. That game started as probably the most successful game that most closely replicated the model. And by the end of it's vanilla release, it had become nothing like WoW. Oddly enough, Rift is closer to the original WoW than WoW itself currently is. And neither really resemble it all that closely now anyway.
Why are MMO players so obsessed with WoW? Why can't we just find concepts and mechanics that work and use them while losing the ones that don't work and we don't like and not care about who used them previously? So what if ANET didn't "invent" dynamic events? So what if other games used them (or not)? Take what works and use it and improve on it. I'm going to be honest. I think one of ANET's biggest mistakes is that they tried too hard to NOT be WoW so much so that they avoided many things that would have worked with a bit of refinement. Instead, they tried to re-invent too many wheels.
I'll tell you what. If they had copied some things from WoW and it was for the better, you can sit there and shout "WoW clone" til you're blue in the face. I wouldn't care because I'd be too busy enjoying it.
In some ways GW2 is more WoW then WoW itself. You don't even have to have a chat bar in GW2 as there's no reason to ever say anything to anyone in that game. You don't have to grab quests or even min max gear and keybinds for raids.
GW2 is actually more themepark then WoW is. Never thought that would happen.
GW2 sure isn't WoW, it's broken away from itt in many ways.
No gear threadmill.
No tradtional quest hubs that become useless once you outlevel them.
Level playing field in PvP.
No Trinity.
More active combat with dodging.
The game just looks a whole lot better overall.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Yes, if I think a movie is overrated - then it's better in the minds of the people who like it that much - than I think it is. Are you telling me you don't understand what these simple things mean?
It doesn't mean I'm oppressing people - it means I disagree and that I think they're overestimating the movie.
That doesn't make me arrogant - it makes me a person who disagrees with them.
I haven't said anything like people are not enjoying themselves or they're delusional. That's another fantasy scenario in your mind - so you can keep being irrational about your position. You insist on belittling people who disagree with you over and over again. That's your whole approach to criticism. That makes your position weak.
I'm saying they're overstating the quality of the GW2 concepts and that those concepts do have flaws if you open your eyes. THEY can have great fun - but that doesn't mean the ideas are fantastic. You used to have a lot of fun in WoW - for instance - so I guess all the ideas were great? That's silly.
I'm not saying people are wrong - or that I'm right, objectively. Objective truth is not something I can determine. I can just have an opinion about what's right and wrong.
You, however, are clearly telling me in a very factual way that people are not overestimating anything - as if they couldn't possibly be wrong - which is of course those who agree with you.
GW2 isn't made for them and not for me. It's just a game that people can think about what they like. My tolerance has nothing to do with it. My preferences have something to do with it.
I'm not superior or inferior. I'm just a human being with an opinion.
It's as if you think you're convincing when you keep saying the same things over and over. Unfortunately, you're having the opposite effect. The more you insist on being irrational - the less convincing you become.
But please go on - I'd love to hear more convincing stuff about how GW2 is fantastic and people who agree with you can't be wrong. I don't think it's all THAT good - just pretty good in some ways and bad in others. That means I'm wrong or intolerant. That's pretty amusing
I suppose you have the right to be that silly - but I have the right not to take you seriously. Which comes pretty easily the more you talk
Why are you trying to dictate what is "fun" to me. Fun is a very subjective thing. By doing so, you prove my point. You do try to force your ideas and beliefs on others. What you find fun might vary greatly from what I do. You are bashing people for what they think is fun and telling them they are wrong. If you think I enjoy raiding for the gear grind then you have it all wrong. I would hazard to say the majority of raiders don't play just for the gear. A lot of people enjoy the teamwork, conversation, and the overcoming adversity with a group of people. They enjoy playing their roles and being good at their in game professions. The gear is just an added benny. In reality, my favorite game had zero raiding, but had a player crafting based economy so raiding isn't a must for me. Gear is a tangible reward. It serves its purpose and increases the power of the character giving a sense of progression. It might not be my preferred method of progression, but it is one.
In GW2, once I have the set I want, what is there left to do? Recycle events? I am mainly a PvE player, but even the PvP is without consequence. You think I hate GW2, but I don't. I still play it. I treat it like a console game. When new content comes out, I play through that content and then shelve it until some more comes along. Is it my favorite game? No. I am only stating some reasons as to why a lot of people most likely complain about the "end game", and I think what I said holds true whether you want to admit it or not.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Oh it broke away alright. It took MMOs into an even crappier direction. We had WoW gives us tank charging through dungeons, now with GW2 everyone tries to zerg every boss like a Keep Lord. Forget the adds or the intended mechanics, just ZERG ZERG ZERG. Because of this, future MMO's are going to have to make healers less healy and tanks less tanky and make everyone equally capable of DPS. I'm afraid GW2 broke the trinity, and any sense of strategy in MMOs, most likely forever.
It's a dying genre, commercial success and art are two different things. When crappy media sells it doesn't mean a media or art is still doing good, it just means there are that many stupid people out there supporting bad products if they stroke their ego enough.
There will be a few titles that try to be more traditional, but as they fail, we'll never see them again.
http://thewordiz.wordpress.com/
Spot on? Really? That;s why what, over half of those "subs" are Asain players that pay for time and not the entire month so if one wants to play for 1 hour your beloved Blizzard counts them the same as a monthly sub. Guess you fanbois are blinded by the BS that Blizzard keeps spitting out. Spot on, more like a skid mark in a 3 year old under-roos.
So you would enjoy raiding if there wasn't any rewards? No loot. No gear progression?
All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.
I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.
I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.
I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.