Originally posted by nariusseldon This notion of "let's have more .. let's have a grander vision" ... who are you talking to? I don't waste my time "visioining" entertainment products that i will never build. Building games is in the hands of devs, not players.
As long as *your* belly is full, why bother about the starving people anywhere else? Is that pretty much right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Briansho MMO go through phases.Phase 1 - Games come out and require you to learn how to play the game to progress.people whinePhase 2 - Games come out and it is now easier to progress and takes less time.people whinePhase 3 - Games come out and you can buy all types of progression from item mall.people whinePhase 4 - What's next?
An MMO about cheese? (To go with all that wine... er whine?)
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
When I remember the corpse runs in AC to try to retreive my valuable and rare equipment only to get killed again and leave more equipment behind and then got friends to help me get the 2 coprses so I could continue going where I was going in the first place 2 hours later, the first word I think of is not "quality" nor is it "uber" nor "elite"... the word that comes to mind is annoyingfreakingwasteoftime.
I had a similar occurence in EverQuest. I was running along the zone wall when I slipped through an illusionary wall that lead into the mountain. I followed it along, finding a few spectres that I bashed into dust on the way, before the tunnel opened up into an area with a large portal. I'd never seen or heard of this thing before so I thought, "Screw it!", and dived in to see where it went. I had feign death, I was a monk, I should be fine.
I ended up in the Plane of Fear and lasted all of 30 seconds before I was killed and back to my spawn point. Hmm. Need to be more careful, I thought, still not having a clue what the Plane of Fear was all about. So I dived back through that portal and promptly died again after something called Dread called my name and I died instantly. Not good!
Long story short, I was screwed, all my hard earned gear was stuck in a place that I couldn't enter without dying, so I made a call out to the community, asked on general chat for a little help, and you know what happened?
An entire guild that I had no previous dealings with, that I knew no members of, came to help me out, mobilised every member online to break the entrance to the Plane of Fear and ressurect me, returning most of my lost XP and all my equipment in the process. What did they get out of it? Nothing but whatever those entrance mobs might have dropped.
Why am I telling you this? Because it might not have been 'quality' or 'uber' or 'elite', but to see an entire community raise arms to help a single person that they knew nothing about was absolutely freakin' incredible. It's one of my fondest memories from those days, something that's stayed with me ever since.
It shows what an MMO can be - not a solo experience where you rush around bashing mobs like you're some superhero, ignoring the people around you except to show off you new shiny armour to them, chasing quest after quest like a donkey chasing a carrot. No, it's about the people around you, about what you can do for them, and what they can do for you. About people coming together to create and accomplish something more than the gameworld itself can offer.
Originally posted by Icewhite Actually, free "respecs" and the even more flexible systems coming out in games today were still very uncommon until....'05 maybe? Then it became the trendy mass-copied mechanic and spread to pretty much everywhere.
If you track major systems that really affected the entire gaming universe, most of the 'dumbing down' of MMO systems resulted from sensible responses to a company bleeding frustrated-player accounts.
Why don't we pay hourly any more? Why aren't we still stuck with a single charater slot, or 10-item (what your toon is wearing) and no 'lockers', or awkward encumberance systems? Why aren't we still stuck with a character's original appearance forever? Why did quests become so common, and popular? How many years did it take until the first xp for pvp was awarded?
"Dumbing down" is code for "QoL change, any variety".
Purely a player's own opinion on this. What if a player likes above "sinful badness" of older MMORPGs? Are they stupid for liking them? Are they wrong to want that kind of gameplay in their MMORPG (which is probably why they played in the first place)? If a player disagrees with *your* assessment, are they wrong?
All of the above did "dumb down" the market. Those players who did NOT enjoy that kind of gameplay did not play MMOPRPGs. Only when MMORPGs made it "easier" for them did they start to enjoy them. Is this "wrong" because you disagree, along with many millions now playing MMOs? Is their opinion beaten down by the masses in a Mob Rule industry?
Were old MMORPGs perfect? Of course not! I would be surprised if anyone says they were. Maybe even some of *your* improvements will be included by some players as to why old MMOs were not perfect.
Let's not forget that today's MMOs would not exist if players did not like the old ones.
BTW, how are MUDs doing these days? Have they become any easier than before? I have never played, so I don't know. I know you have experience with them and curious if they have changed the way MMORPGs have.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Iselin Yes. The reason is that some people hate change to such an extent that they're willing to continue to pay money to fix their old Chevy Corvair instead of "taking a chance" on a new Honda Civic.You're just throwing the "self entitlement" buzzword around to try to trash his opinion because your opinion is different. Guess what? They're both opinions and I happen to share his, not youre.
The Corvair is a classic car from the 1960's. 50+ years old. You bet I would keep that baby running. The new Honda Accord? Just like the Toyota Camry, the Nissan Altima, the Ford Fusion, the Chevy Malibu, The Volkswagon Passat. How many of these cars will be running in 50 years? Not many.
They are made more cheaply, though some will say "better" than the Corvair. Many of them almost "require" mechanics to work on them, hopefully dealer sponsored ones.
Who is throwing the "self entitlement" card more, the "Make every game for ME!" crowd or the "Make ONE game for me!" crowd? Every thread is littered with players who love new MMOs. That is fine. What gets tiring and boring is the attack on every player who wants something "different" (gasp) from what these players want.
I have not seen many posts from "old timers" saying, "EVERY game MUST be made for ME!" I do, however, see MANY posts from players who like the new face of MMOS saying, "EVERY game must be a casual game so that *I* can play it when I have the time."
Would the world end if 3-5 MMO in the nest 5-10 years put the RPG back into their title? Would *you* and your cronies die because you just could not find the time to play them?
Who is the "Entitlement Crowd" again?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by jpnz My primary desire is to be entertained. That's what video games are for me. To be fun. I find story to be fun.Imaginary loot / levels for epeen? Not so much.
And, of course, *your* way is the only way for everybody, right?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by ragz45 How does this thread keep getting Necro'ed?
a post started April 30th, 2013 is not being "Necro'ed."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by jpnz My primary desire is to be entertained. That's what video games are for me. To be fun. I find story to be fun.Imaginary loot / levels for epeen? Not so much.
And, of course, *your* way is the only way for everybody, right?
He didn't say that, did he? In fact, it is pretty clear that he stated HIS desire is to be entertained.
I have the same preference. You may not. Is that clear?
I had a thread about this several months back (that's where I got my spotlight poster title weee lol), and I said back then that the instant gratification ruins the MMO experience.
If you like the following you might be a MMO player:
- Going into a forest or mine for hours to gather materials for crafting.
- Sitting at a workstation for hours turning wood and ore into something you can use.
- Sitting somewhere crafting for hours on end, just to get 1/4 of a level in a craft.
- Takes a year or more to get to the level cap.
- Killing so many "insert monster here" that people make comics and jokes about it...yet still you didn't level up.
- Grouping up to take on higher level enemies for bonus experience.
- Grouping up just to survive the trip to the next town.
- Grouping just for the sake of playing with friends, even if you could do it yourself.
- Death penalties that actually hurt. Loss of experience and/or lots of resources...or even your gear.
- Having to go to a wiki or guide site to print out a map of the game world, because you're lost all the time.
- Doing nothing but sitting in a bank, pub, house, or some other place just chatting with people.
I'm one of the youngster out there. I'm 19 years old....And i'm the kind of guy who enjoy a mmo ''alone'' and i really like when i'm progressing fast,and almost none of the point here appeal me. You will ask ''why playing a mmo then?'' it's because...
- i'm a competitive player. I want to top the dps chart. I want to be the best in pvp.I want everyone to see what i'm doing,and i want to see what everyone doing..if i'm wrong,fine, or ahead. My gratification come where i do something others can't,soloing instance...
-I never went in a guild,simply because i dislike it. I feel uncomfortable with people in real life,and so do i online.I almost never get close to someone. I can group,lead it,tell them they did a great job and leaving it afterward. I rarely stay with a group longer than 1 or 2 instances. I like the presence of people..but not when they interact with me directly.
-i like instant gratification. I want loot when i kill a dungeon boss,or at least a shard of an item. i want to feel that i'm progressing. I want to see my result. I want to do something that deserve a purpose. I'm not the kind of guy who will explore a open world and do quest (in fact,in every mmo i play,i level up by pvp and instance).
But,i will give you a point : it must be a greater experience if you enjoy the game as it suppose to be. I played WoW with a friend of mine once (the only mmo i played not alone) ,and i did fish for 3 hours..and i think it's still the best memory i have of that game. I'm feeling bad as i'm skipping every quest dialog to quest the fastest way i can,but that what i do (other than cutscene). Maybe because i don't feel like i have that much time to spend on a single game (i have alot of game i didn't had time to play...over 200,no joke),or that i'm losing my time on reading those dialog.Not enough action? i don't know.
I really think i would enjoy a mmo better if i could play it as you do though...but some1 have to teach me how to.
in fact,i play mmo like i live my life : doing everything i can the fastest way possible,to be sure of not wasting my time anywhere. I like shortcut...maybe a tad too much?
Originally posted by Iselin Yes. The reason is that some people hate change to such an extent that they're willing to continue to pay money to fix their old Chevy Corvair instead of "taking a chance" on a new Honda Civic.
You're just throwing the "self entitlement" buzzword around to try to trash his opinion because your opinion is different. Guess what? They're both opinions and I happen to share his, not youre.
The Corvair is a classic car from the 1960's. 50+ years old. You bet I would keep that baby running. The new Honda Accord? Just like the Toyota Camry, the Nissan Altima, the Ford Fusion, the Chevy Malibu, The Volkswagon Passat. How many of these cars will be running in 50 years? Not many.
They are made more cheaply, though some will say "better" than the Corvair. Many of them almost "require" mechanics to work on them, hopefully dealer sponsored ones.
Who is throwing the "self entitlement" card more, the "Make every game for ME!" crowd or the "Make ONE game for me!" crowd? Every thread is littered with players who love new MMOs. That is fine. What gets tiring and boring is the attack on every player who wants something "different" (gasp) from what these players want.
I have not seen many posts from "old timers" saying, "EVERY game MUST be made for ME!" I do, however, see MANY posts from players who like the new face of MMOS saying, "EVERY game must be a casual game so that *I* can play it when I have the time."
Would the world end if 3-5 MMO in the nest 5-10 years put the RPG back into their title? Would *you* and your cronies die because you just could not find the time to play them?
Who is the "Entitlement Crowd" again?
I have no idea wha you're going on about. You snipped off the irrational angry outburst about self-entitlement I responded to ... So that you could have ayour own rant about self entitlement. All I saw was a couple of opinions as I clearly said. The difference was the guy who didn't like someone having an opinion about the old games being junk started throwing the self entitlement cliche around apropos of nothing...sort of like you're doing.
There are more than enough MMOs to go around. Play what you want. But maybe "you and your cronies" should stop trying to tell the rest of us about how superior the old ones were. We were there too you know. And in my opinion the newer MMOs improve on the old ones in every conceivable way. Can you handle my opinion?
PS... The "unsafe at any speed" POS Corvair a classic? Just goes to show that when junk gets old enough it starts to look good to some. I think I'll pass.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Obivously it is a balance, it should not take ten years to reach end game. In the long term I question 'short periods of entertainment' as good design or business. It will get stale, it has got stale for many already. It relies heavily on new blood coming through without which it would really struggle. And you know that all those teenagers have so much more to do now right? Why play a game with limited vision? Back to i-tunes they go.
Yes, it is about the balance, and markets are notoriously good at finding balances.
You logic is just flawed. "Short period of entertainment" is least likely to get stale. A game that takes years to play is much more likely to get stale. Tell me, is playing 10 new games stale, compared to just one?
In fact, shorter games is more conducive to innovation and new stuff. Devs can also take more risk with a smaller investment. Look at the indie games. They are much smaller, and there are many and they take more risks.
I like cartoons and magazines myself, I have got enjoyment from some ribbon world tiny MMO's in my time. But lets have more, lets have a grander vision too, one that tries to make a truely great MMO. You seem satisfied with tiny world snacks, many of us want a feast of a MMO. As I said before chef Blizzard made a grand feast once, it can be done again. Maybe with a touch more sandbox seasoning this time.
In that case, you are covered. Sounds like you can enjoy what is out in the market today.
This notion of "let's have more .. let's have a grander vision" ... who are you talking to? I don't waste my time "visioining" entertainment products that i will never build. Building games is in the hands of devs, not players.
Personally i only respond to their creation. If their product suits me and i find fun .. great .. i will play .. and may be even spend money. Otherwise, there are other forms of entertainment.
And yes, i never found a "world" that entertaining. In fact, many games without worlds are much more fun, for me of course, than those who have. And the list is long. That is just preference of me, which is irrelevant for devs. They respond to the aggregate of preferences in the market place.
Don't make it sound it "tiny" is bad. A tiny FUN experience is better (for me) than a big grand but boring one. Ever heard of "quality" over "quantity"? A game environement does not have to be big to be fun.
No, but it has to be big to last more than a couple of months for the average player. The fact I can enjoy a smaller downsized MMO does not mean I will stay in it, they go stale very quickly.
The difference between us is you are still happy riding the Pirates of the Carribean attraction at Disneyland. I want to go and see the films a grander vision based on the same idea. We know MMO's can be made bigger and better, thats what gaming should be reaching for. To have more styles of game and types of gameplay only makes it stronger, give punters their chance to look beyond immediate "fun" and they will get so much more out of MMO's.
Originally posted by delete5230 The mind set of this topic ?......People here on this site are acking like players have a choice !
Old farts my butt.....Developers are changing mmos, not the new young players....You have no choice.
Their is no " Grand Poll " of what players are asking for. Developers are making games simple, easy kill, fast travel, auto everything on their own !
People must think others are goint to this majic web site. Voting for " easy softer mmos ". Then depelopers are going there, reading the polls and making there games that way !!!!
In a sense, yes. The reality is that these games sell. Millions of them! If players "did not want" these games, would they buy them hand over foot?
Devs may not look at polls, buy they DO look at bottom lines. Players support that bottom line with almost every new release.
Sorry but games sell because of marketing only.
In the 80's it was all about the back of the box.
- Now marketing has it even better, with non gameplay videos. Remember the the great Warhammer Online Pre-release video ?......Then we had Open bata, people found it boring as hell, yet the game was so hyped that most EVERYONE GOT IT ANYWAY.
- Same with Vanguard. Total mess in bata, EVERYONE GOT IT ANYWAY.
- World of Warcraft, Loved by millions. Now the developers are saying people want " easy ". A few 7 year olds on the WoW forums complained, and that gave the developers a chance to give less content.......Now you have to buy every expantion in less than a month......By the way 9 million players my butt !
- Now we have Neverwinter, with it's cashshop on crack.....Get this.....The quest have popcorn trails leading you to where you have to go
What does all of the crap given to us now have to do with old farts ?
The dumbing down of the younger generation is apperent in all aspects of life these days. The lack of problem solving and critical thinking, is becoming very clear to the older generation. At least, when they reach 30 they recognize that problem too.
Anyways, for the topic at hand. MMOs, and what makes a good one. Going to take different aspects from different games.
Well first off is a good story, RPGs are story based games. I think if devs took the approach of story progression, rather then "grinding levels", would make the game very interesting to play. Instead of finding faster ways to to get to that next ding, take the feeling of "the grind", out of the game altogather. Make quests challenging, and make you apply problem solving and critical thinking from the very begining. Encourage team play, rewards and difficulty based on the number of players. The Secret World, almost hit the nail on the head with this aspect, had they encouraged team play a little more, it would of been perfect. TSW was the only game I have ever played, where I felt the sense of accomplishment, and not a sense of the grind. (Keep in mind, that TSW is the only game where players know most of the quests by name)
One thing to mention on this, discourage the use of third websites. Collaberation should come from within the game, not outside of it. This is a multi-player genre after all, and cheating your way through a game, is not playing the game. I know people think they have good intentions, by giving away the answers, but they are only contributing to the "dumbing down" aspect, which alot of people are begining to loathe. It should be worked out amoungst the players within the game.
Even a community within the game shouldn't just blantently give away the answers, approach it from aiding in solving the problem. You see it's just not only a problem inherent to the devs, but to the gamers as well.
Character development, I think people should be able to design their character as they see fit, i think the classless systems, handle this apsect the best. They could even approach the crafting system from this model. Leveling everything, gathering and crafting included, should feel like you were developing a character and not leveling one. TSW once again, the skill wheel to date is one of the best models for developing a character on the battle side of life in a mmo, FFXIV handled the crafting and gathering development very well, the minigames made it feel as though you were leveling a class, they could of implemented more quest related aspects to crafting and gathering, would of nailed it down. Building houses, and even fortresses (PvP included GW2 WvWvW), boats, ect, should be a team oriented accomplishment.
PvP an area which highly lacks character developement, things like stragedies, diplomacy, and treaties, should be encouraged to make for an engaging ranking system. Not just a mindless camp the corpse activity.
Something to consider, removal of a monetary system, encourage self suffiency and self sustainment, as well as group crafting. This will inherently encourage true character developement. Crafting and gathering should be there to encourage the developement of your character, success should not be determined by the amount of money you can spend. Emphasis on a system of trade and keep player interaction consistant.
Endgame should be approached not only from killing X boss in X amount of time to get X loot, but puzzle type raids, even raids for the crafters (possibly), encourage problem solving and critical thinking, not just which role and which abilities will get the job done best, on what boss, broaden endgame like in FFXI where you had a choice of endgame things to do, add to it the puzzle style raid, where collaberative critically thinking and problem solving come into play. After all, overcoming a very difficult thought provoking, problem to solve, is the spice of the sense of accomplishment.
It should hurt a little to fail, endgame should be more about accomplishment, and less about "wipe it up".
This is about all I can think of atm, feel free to add to it......
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
I had a thread about this several months back (that's where I got my spotlight poster title weee lol), and I said back then that the instant gratification ruins the MMO experience.
If you like the following you might be a MMO player:
- Going into a forest or mine for hours to gather materials for crafting.
- Sitting at a workstation for hours turning wood and ore into something you can use.
- Sitting somewhere crafting for hours on end, just to get 1/4 of a level in a craft.
- Takes a year or more to get to the level cap.
- Killing so many "insert monster here" that people make comics and jokes about it...yet still you didn't level up.
- Grouping up to take on higher level enemies for bonus experience.
- Grouping up just to survive the trip to the next town.
- Grouping just for the sake of playing with friends, even if you could do it yourself.
- Death penalties that actually hurt. Loss of experience and/or lots of resources...or even your gear.
- Having to go to a wiki or guide site to print out a map of the game world, because you're lost all the time.
- Doing nothing but sitting in a bank, pub, house, or some other place just chatting with people.
I'm one of the youngster out there. I'm 19 years old....And i'm the kind of guy who enjoy a mmo ''alone'' and i really like when i'm progressing fast,and almost none of the point here appeal me. You will ask ''why playing a mmo then?'' it's because...
- i'm a competitive player. I want to top the dps chart. I want to be the best in pvp.I want everyone to see what i'm doing,and i want to see what everyone doing..if i'm wrong,fine, or ahead. My gratification come where i do something others can't,soloing instance...
-I never went in a guild,simply because i dislike it. I feel uncomfortable with people in real life,and so do i online.I almost never get close to someone. I can group,lead it,tell them they did a great job and leaving it afterward. I rarely stay with a group longer than 1 or 2 instances. I like the presence of people..but not when they interact with me directly.
-i like instant gratification. I want loot when i kill a dungeon boss,or at least a shard of an item. i want to feel that i'm progressing. I want to see my result. I want to do something that deserve a purpose. I'm not the kind of guy who will explore a open world and do quest (in fact,in every mmo i play,i level up by pvp and instance).
But,i will give you a point : it must be a greater experience if you enjoy the game as it suppose to be. I played WoW with a friend of mine once (the only mmo i played not alone) ,and i did fish for 3 hours..and i think it's still the best memory i have of that game. I'm feeling bad as i'm skipping every quest dialog to quest the fastest way i can,but that what i do (other than cutscene). Maybe because i don't feel like i have that much time to spend on a single game (i have alot of game i didn't had time to play...over 200,no joke),or that i'm losing my time on reading those dialog.Not enough action? i don't know.
I really think i would enjoy a mmo better if i could play it as you do though...but some1 have to teach me how to.
in fact,i play mmo like i live my life : doing everything i can the fastest way possible,to be sure of not wasting my time anywhere. I like shortcut...maybe a tad too much?
Your way is the decline of mmo's in my view and result getting mediocre ezmode themparks almost everyday most mmo's we have today i realy dont wanne play mmo's you like and be around your playstyle i hate it swallow no depth souless gamers is what i think.
Timesink don't care slow progress dont care hardcore mobs and bosses dont care and it must be sandbox settings no ezmode or alot cookies for me im disgust by that i realy could not play such games or play with people who want it fast and easy.
Im also kind that dont realy seek people im solo in RL and in games but i can group alot if they have same mindset as me.
Also social and communicate is importend to me if no one say anything or not social im out.
I guess I am an old fart (41) but there are some aspects of IG that I like. I lose interest if i have to run dailies for 6 weeks for one piece, I'd rather get a piece a week.
Hell at 41 who has the time to waste gaming everyday anyhow? I've got fishing to do a Harley to ride and BBQ's and the like it's summertime and free time is at an all time low. I've got to be carefull how i spend it.
There is something to be said about having to work for something, it builds in you and makes you proud to be alive. Gaming is not work though and thus should not be made to be like it. I don't ask for everyting for nothing in games but I also don't want the hurdles of everyday bothering me while I'm supposed to be haiving fun.
I guess as an old fart I can say I don't have time to play games, pun intended, for things I want in game. I'll earn that armor or weapons but not the same way I earned my house.
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Exactly. It amazes me how many here think they're saying something new when they say essentially the same thing.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem isnt "generational" (and yes...I am old, lol)- Its that gaming (especially MMO gaming, but all PC gaming as well) has become mainstream and is set to the lowest common denominator.
When I started gaming things like "H.P"/ "MP", "level" and such were the vocabulary of nerds and gamers- NOW, everyone knows what you are talking about. We came from tabletop gaming and wanted to create the "Virtual World" experience on our PC. Only nerds even HAD PC's since they were essentially not a household item and internet was a luxury.
Had PC gaming and MMO's went mainstream in the early 1990s, the bulk of gamers by the Mid 1990s would be the same as they are now.
I know plenty of youngsters who would love to have a game with depth and consequence- A real persistent world where choice and consequence rule supreme- But the bulk of ANY generation wants it easy, gimme now, etc... Since MMO gaming is now totally mainstream- This is what will inevitably happen.
My point is, there isnt that much of a difference between my generation and this generation.
The m ore people who play, the easier and more streamilined gaming will get- The more genres will merge- The more casuals will be catered to- The more nickle and dime's you will be asked for. =(
Originally posted by delete5230 ...- Now we have Neverwinter, with it's cashshop on crack.....Get this.....The quest have popcorn trails leading you to where you have to go...
Why am I not surprised that Neverwinter is absolute crap? LoL. Because the gaming industry is spewing nothing but junk and marketing hype. It seems impossible that EQN will be anything other than junk. The cash grab is at its peak, and EQN will certainly try to get a piece of that pie before it collapses under its own weight.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
For those that truly believe the older games were king to the ez mode games of today, do you not realize that many of those games are still around? DaoC, EQ, EQ2 and I'm sure some others still have servers running. Many other older games have private servers you can find if you look hard enough. Why are you not still playing those games?
If those games were so superior to the games of today, why did so many people leave them? Because it got boring doing the same things for 10 years is an answer I hear alot. WoW survives in its high popularity because it provides a good mix of instant gratification and hard content. Aside from the best of the best, most people never see 25 man heroic raids, but everyone gets a chance to grind reputation for good rewards.
It just doesn't make sense for any developer to try and produce a new game based on the much older way of mmo thinking when those games have declined in popularity compared to games like WoW and even TOR, with its 1.4 million free players and half million subs.
Games that do come out that try to be really hardcore or niche rarely succeed as well, so its even more of a deterrent for developers.
The bottom line is that the old way of thinking is the "old way" because it doesn't work anymore. Whether its because the old-timers don't put the time into the games that they use to, or simply remember the old days as far better than they actually were is debatable, but all we can is hope that the future brings more in depth games that can appeal to every facet of mmo gaming.
Originally posted by jpnz My primary desire is to be entertained. That's what video games are for me. To be fun. I find story to be fun.Imaginary loot / levels for epeen? Not so much.
And, of course, *your* way is the only way for everybody, right?
He didn't say that, did he? In fact, it is pretty clear that he stated HIS desire is to be entertained.
You are correct. My apologies, jpnz. That was wrong of me.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I had a similar occurence in EverQuest. I was running along the zone wall when I slipped through an illusionary wall that lead into the mountain. I followed it along, finding a few spectres that I bashed into dust on the way, before the tunnel opened up into an area with a large portal. I'd never seen or heard of this thing before so I thought, "Screw it!", and dived in to see where it went. I had feign death, I was a monk, I should be fine.
I ended up in the Plane of Fear and lasted all of 30 seconds before I was killed and back to my spawn point. Hmm. Need to be more careful, I thought, still not having a clue what the Plane of Fear was all about. So I dived back through that portal and promptly died again after something called Dread called my name and I died instantly. Not good!
Long story short, I was screwed, all my hard earned gear was stuck in a place that I couldn't enter without dying, so I made a call out to the community, asked on general chat for a little help, and you know what happened?
An entire guild that I had no previous dealings with, that I knew no members of, came to help me out, mobilised every member online to break the entrance to the Plane of Fear and ressurect me, returning most of my lost XP and all my equipment in the process. What did they get out of it? Nothing but whatever those entrance mobs might have dropped.
Why am I telling you this? Because it might not have been 'quality' or 'uber' or 'elite', but to see an entire community raise arms to help a single person that they knew nothing about was absolutely freakin' incredible. It's one of my fondest memories from those days, something that's stayed with me ever since.
It shows what an MMO can be - not a solo experience where you rush around bashing mobs like you're some superhero, ignoring the people around you except to show off you new shiny armour to them, chasing quest after quest like a donkey chasing a carrot. No, it's about the people around you, about what you can do for them, and what they can do for you. About people coming together to create and accomplish something more than the gameworld itself can offer.
All of the above did "dumb down" the market. Those players who did NOT enjoy that kind of gameplay did not play MMOPRPGs. Only when MMORPGs made it "easier" for them did they start to enjoy them. Is this "wrong" because you disagree, along with many millions now playing MMOs? Is their opinion beaten down by the masses in a Mob Rule industry?
Were old MMORPGs perfect? Of course not! I would be surprised if anyone says they were. Maybe even some of *your* improvements will be included by some players as to why old MMOs were not perfect.
Let's not forget that today's MMOs would not exist if players did not like the old ones.
BTW, how are MUDs doing these days? Have they become any easier than before? I have never played, so I don't know. I know you have experience with them and curious if they have changed the way MMORPGs have.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
They are made more cheaply, though some will say "better" than the Corvair. Many of them almost "require" mechanics to work on them, hopefully dealer sponsored ones.
Who is throwing the "self entitlement" card more, the "Make every game for ME!" crowd or the "Make ONE game for me!" crowd? Every thread is littered with players who love new MMOs. That is fine. What gets tiring and boring is the attack on every player who wants something "different" (gasp) from what these players want.
I have not seen many posts from "old timers" saying, "EVERY game MUST be made for ME!" I do, however, see MANY posts from players who like the new face of MMOS saying, "EVERY game must be a casual game so that *I* can play it when I have the time."
Would the world end if 3-5 MMO in the nest 5-10 years put the RPG back into their title? Would *you* and your cronies die because you just could not find the time to play them?
Who is the "Entitlement Crowd" again?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
He didn't say that, did he? In fact, it is pretty clear that he stated HIS desire is to be entertained.
I have the same preference. You may not. Is that clear?
I'm one of the youngster out there. I'm 19 years old....And i'm the kind of guy who enjoy a mmo ''alone'' and i really like when i'm progressing fast,and almost none of the point here appeal me. You will ask ''why playing a mmo then?'' it's because...
- i'm a competitive player. I want to top the dps chart. I want to be the best in pvp.I want everyone to see what i'm doing,and i want to see what everyone doing..if i'm wrong,fine, or ahead. My gratification come where i do something others can't,soloing instance...
-I never went in a guild,simply because i dislike it. I feel uncomfortable with people in real life,and so do i online.I almost never get close to someone. I can group,lead it,tell them they did a great job and leaving it afterward. I rarely stay with a group longer than 1 or 2 instances. I like the presence of people..but not when they interact with me directly.
-i like instant gratification. I want loot when i kill a dungeon boss,or at least a shard of an item. i want to feel that i'm progressing. I want to see my result. I want to do something that deserve a purpose. I'm not the kind of guy who will explore a open world and do quest (in fact,in every mmo i play,i level up by pvp and instance).
But,i will give you a point : it must be a greater experience if you enjoy the game as it suppose to be. I played WoW with a friend of mine once (the only mmo i played not alone) ,and i did fish for 3 hours..and i think it's still the best memory i have of that game. I'm feeling bad as i'm skipping every quest dialog to quest the fastest way i can,but that what i do (other than cutscene). Maybe because i don't feel like i have that much time to spend on a single game (i have alot of game i didn't had time to play...over 200,no joke),or that i'm losing my time on reading those dialog.Not enough action? i don't know.
I really think i would enjoy a mmo better if i could play it as you do though...but some1 have to teach me how to.
in fact,i play mmo like i live my life : doing everything i can the fastest way possible,to be sure of not wasting my time anywhere. I like shortcut...maybe a tad too much?
I have no idea wha you're going on about. You snipped off the irrational angry outburst about self-entitlement I responded to ... So that you could have ayour own rant about self entitlement. All I saw was a couple of opinions as I clearly said. The difference was the guy who didn't like someone having an opinion about the old games being junk started throwing the self entitlement cliche around apropos of nothing...sort of like you're doing.
There are more than enough MMOs to go around. Play what you want. But maybe "you and your cronies" should stop trying to tell the rest of us about how superior the old ones were. We were there too you know. And in my opinion the newer MMOs improve on the old ones in every conceivable way. Can you handle my opinion?
PS... The "unsafe at any speed" POS Corvair a classic? Just goes to show that when junk gets old enough it starts to look good to some. I think I'll pass.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
No, but it has to be big to last more than a couple of months for the average player. The fact I can enjoy a smaller downsized MMO does not mean I will stay in it, they go stale very quickly.
The difference between us is you are still happy riding the Pirates of the Carribean attraction at Disneyland. I want to go and see the films a grander vision based on the same idea. We know MMO's can be made bigger and better, thats what gaming should be reaching for. To have more styles of game and types of gameplay only makes it stronger, give punters their chance to look beyond immediate "fun" and they will get so much more out of MMO's.
You can't necro a ongoing discussion..lol
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Sorry but games sell because of marketing only.
In the 80's it was all about the back of the box.
- Now marketing has it even better, with non gameplay videos. Remember the the great Warhammer Online Pre-release video ?......Then we had Open bata, people found it boring as hell, yet the game was so hyped that most EVERYONE GOT IT ANYWAY.
- Same with Vanguard. Total mess in bata, EVERYONE GOT IT ANYWAY.
- World of Warcraft, Loved by millions. Now the developers are saying people want " easy ". A few 7 year olds on the WoW forums complained, and that gave the developers a chance to give less content.......Now you have to buy every expantion in less than a month......By the way 9 million players my butt !
- Now we have Neverwinter, with it's cashshop on crack.....Get this.....The quest have popcorn trails leading you to where you have to go
What does all of the crap given to us now have to do with old farts ?
The dumbing down of the younger generation is apperent in all aspects of life these days. The lack of problem solving and critical thinking, is becoming very clear to the older generation. At least, when they reach 30 they recognize that problem too.
Anyways, for the topic at hand. MMOs, and what makes a good one. Going to take different aspects from different games.
One thing to mention on this, discourage the use of third websites. Collaberation should come from within the game, not outside of it. This is a multi-player genre after all, and cheating your way through a game, is not playing the game. I know people think they have good intentions, by giving away the answers, but they are only contributing to the "dumbing down" aspect, which alot of people are begining to loathe. It should be worked out amoungst the players within the game.
Even a community within the game shouldn't just blantently give away the answers, approach it from aiding in solving the problem. You see it's just not only a problem inherent to the devs, but to the gamers as well.
Something to consider, removal of a monetary system, encourage self suffiency and self sustainment, as well as group crafting. This will inherently encourage true character developement. Crafting and gathering should be there to encourage the developement of your character, success should not be determined by the amount of money you can spend. Emphasis on a system of trade and keep player interaction consistant.
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”
Socrates
Your way is the decline of mmo's in my view and result getting mediocre ezmode themparks almost everyday most mmo's we have today i realy dont wanne play mmo's you like and be around your playstyle i hate it swallow no depth souless gamers is what i think.
Timesink don't care slow progress dont care hardcore mobs and bosses dont care and it must be sandbox settings no ezmode or alot cookies for me im disgust by that i realy could not play such games or play with people who want it fast and easy.
Im also kind that dont realy seek people im solo in RL and in games but i can group alot if they have same mindset as me.
Also social and communicate is importend to me if no one say anything or not social im out.
I guess I am an old fart (41) but there are some aspects of IG that I like. I lose interest if i have to run dailies for 6 weeks for one piece, I'd rather get a piece a week.
Hell at 41 who has the time to waste gaming everyday anyhow? I've got fishing to do a Harley to ride and BBQ's and the like it's summertime and free time is at an all time low. I've got to be carefull how i spend it.
There is something to be said about having to work for something, it builds in you and makes you proud to be alive. Gaming is not work though and thus should not be made to be like it. I don't ask for everyting for nothing in games but I also don't want the hurdles of everyday bothering me while I'm supposed to be haiving fun.
I guess as an old fart I can say I don't have time to play games, pun intended, for things I want in game. I'll earn that armor or weapons but not the same way I earned my house.
Exactly. It amazes me how many here think they're saying something new when they say essentially the same thing.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem isnt "generational" (and yes...I am old, lol)- Its that gaming (especially MMO gaming, but all PC gaming as well) has become mainstream and is set to the lowest common denominator.
When I started gaming things like "H.P"/ "MP", "level" and such were the vocabulary of nerds and gamers- NOW, everyone knows what you are talking about. We came from tabletop gaming and wanted to create the "Virtual World" experience on our PC. Only nerds even HAD PC's since they were essentially not a household item and internet was a luxury.
Had PC gaming and MMO's went mainstream in the early 1990s, the bulk of gamers by the Mid 1990s would be the same as they are now.
I know plenty of youngsters who would love to have a game with depth and consequence- A real persistent world where choice and consequence rule supreme- But the bulk of ANY generation wants it easy, gimme now, etc... Since MMO gaming is now totally mainstream- This is what will inevitably happen.
My point is, there isnt that much of a difference between my generation and this generation.
The m ore people who play, the easier and more streamilined gaming will get- The more genres will merge- The more casuals will be catered to- The more nickle and dime's you will be asked for. =(
Why am I not surprised that Neverwinter is absolute crap? LoL. Because the gaming industry is spewing nothing but junk and marketing hype. It seems impossible that EQN will be anything other than junk. The cash grab is at its peak, and EQN will certainly try to get a piece of that pie before it collapses under its own weight.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
For those that truly believe the older games were king to the ez mode games of today, do you not realize that many of those games are still around? DaoC, EQ, EQ2 and I'm sure some others still have servers running. Many other older games have private servers you can find if you look hard enough. Why are you not still playing those games?
If those games were so superior to the games of today, why did so many people leave them? Because it got boring doing the same things for 10 years is an answer I hear alot. WoW survives in its high popularity because it provides a good mix of instant gratification and hard content. Aside from the best of the best, most people never see 25 man heroic raids, but everyone gets a chance to grind reputation for good rewards.
It just doesn't make sense for any developer to try and produce a new game based on the much older way of mmo thinking when those games have declined in popularity compared to games like WoW and even TOR, with its 1.4 million free players and half million subs.
Games that do come out that try to be really hardcore or niche rarely succeed as well, so its even more of a deterrent for developers.
The bottom line is that the old way of thinking is the "old way" because it doesn't work anymore. Whether its because the old-timers don't put the time into the games that they use to, or simply remember the old days as far better than they actually were is debatable, but all we can is hope that the future brings more in depth games that can appeal to every facet of mmo gaming.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR