I am pretty excited for the potential economy that this game *could* have, and most of the ideas I've been tossing about are nothing more than possibilities, but they're possibilities that I'll be pretty vocal about in testing.
I see a lot of concerns over the economy, when a player based economy tends to drive itself. Augmented by trivial money sinks in the form of NPC vendors spread about here and there, the possibilities are pretty limitless and its one of the least of my concerns in the game. Sure there will be items that cost a small fortune, but there will be plenty of other things that don't and a wise player can find all sorts of ways to either make themselves filthy rich or spend themselves into virtual poverty and debt.
The game economy for me falls far behind class balance, combat mechanics, implementation of CD, ironing out bugs, animations, etc etc.
While I agree those things are important, I think that the way the Economy works will be integral to game design because it will be the a key element of the game. Though RvR is the foundation of CU, what will separate CU from a tactical combat simulation will be the economy and the way the each realm is able to optimize its economy to fuel its war machine.
Logistics will win this game.
To the main topic:
Take EvE (which is my go to PvP sandbox example). For starting money, they have "Rats" that earn players a bounty for destroying them (along with salvage). Each of the realms could have bounties in place (either on NPCs or even PCs) which help to give players some cash.
What really intrigues me is the way that crafting/gear progression will work. The crafting in EvE is about more than just stats but its also a progression. The longer you play the "cooler" ships you can build/fly. This climb up the ship ladder is part of what keeps EvE in business. CU (or any Fantasy MMO) can't really have quite the same gear progression because it ruins a lot of the cool factor. E.g. starting with daggers and grinding skills up to 2H swords.
The real challenge for crafting in CU will be making the progression fun for everyone. In EvE players actively talk about how close they/corp mate are to making teh cool ships as a matter of self sufficiency and pride. It is my hope that in CU, crafters and the players will just excited about having getting new crafting skills as players are in EvE.
In EvE, the money sink is that ships blow up all the time thus crafters are never out of business. Another major issue for CU crafting is how to avoid over production without making crafting the worst grind in the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Essentially, in the real world, for any currency to have value, it has to be taxed. So if we want to have an in game currency, we need NPCs that require it and that offer something for that currency that we require to continue playing the game or to enhance our gameplay.
In my opinion, the most elegant solution would be that various consumables, needed by either crafters, RvRers, or both, had to be purchased from NPCs. This would mirror taxes irl. We would most probably have to add to that a few other non-crafter items sold by NPCs that everyone wanted and had to be purchased with gold... various mounts, perhaps siege weapons or vanity items for housing. There would have to be a decent amount of things to buy for gold from NPCs that players would be interested in having and that crafters could not make.
The other option, is to do entirely without a currency and work on a barter system. But in that case RvRers would need something to trade. This might be crafting materials, but that is a bit of a closed loop system that will not make for a very compelling economy, and something crafters might demand even in a gold economy (mats + 500 gold for the sword please).
Asheron's Call had their form of currency but once crafting became more involved in the game it became clear that rare craft items became the real currency. Pyreal notes soon became primarily used for vendor purchasing and not much else. CU may require some sort of currency for NPCs crafters will always demand resources for the products others require them to make.
I simply do not see how CU can dodge the basic barter system as it is managed by the players. All CSE has to do allow the economy to flourish and the players will determine what is most in demand.
Asheron's Call economny was based on a Loot economy, rather it be Pyreal Motes, Shards & Fragments in the early days then to Major's and Epics in the latter days.
Still told, the Crafting in AC was solly based on the ability to augment/enchant or Tinker loot dropped items and at no point was it ever possible to craft an armor piece or weapon, only augment them. Beautiful system that ESO is reinstituting right down to the dynamic loot differentiation on gear where no 2 "like" items will have the same stats. Enjoy CU where the economy is based on nothing and any lasting appeal to do find something worthwhile is destroyed with the sense that you cna jsut hire someone to craft it. Borring!
Ahhhh yes, the good old 'dynamic loot differentiation' routine, where tanks get lovely items with +Intelligence stats based on some Loot RNG table - a cool enough item in itself, that no other mage really wants to buy. Better yet, some totally awesome item that will sell for an over-inflated price that nobody else will ever be able to re-create because it was completely dependent on same said RNG.
Whoop-de-do. I'm happy for you that some totally random and useless, or potentially op, RNG items excite you, but I'm hoping for a little bit more from CSE here.
Other than stopping by to concern troll, I don't see at all where you think that the CU economy will be based on 'nothing'. People will need blueprints to build. Those will have to be purchased or created. They will need them to build seige weapons, forts, walls, roads, houses, and any other number of creative structures.
This doesn't even factor in armor, weapons, consumables, fluff, housing items, on and on and on...
So what if I have to hire a crafter to make it? Thank God! That means I don't have to spend hours and hours grinding for the hope that some piece of gear or weapon that I want or need drops, and I don't have to spend time praying to the MMO RNG Gods that I roll high enough to even win the said item. I can just help a crafter farm the materials and be done with it, freeing up my time to kill players such as yourself, standing around in the open, farming mobs hoping for that shiny ring.
In DAoC, having a crafter make an MP piece of gear, and then finding an Enchanter to augment it with the stats I chose to have put on it didn't take any sense of 'accomplishment' away from me, I was thrilled to get it, and even more thrilled that I didn't have to grind away at crafting since some other poor bastard chose to do that for me. All that much faster to get out into the action - aka RvR and NOT PvE which you seem to love.
PvE is obviously your thing. That's awesome, for you. There are countless PvE games for you to choose from out there and we wish you the best of luck -----> over there ---------------> with the PvE games in the PvE game forums.
Thanks for stopping by to voice your concerns though.
I don't want to derail my own thread, but...
This is one of the most brutal and complete dismantlings of a troll I've ever seen. Well done!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
Essentially, in the real world, for any currency to have value, it has to be taxed. So if we want to have an in game currency, we need NPCs that require it and that offer something for that currency that we require to continue playing the game or to enhance our gameplay.
In my opinion, the most elegant solution would be that various consumables, needed by either crafters, RvRers, or both, had to be purchased from NPCs. This would mirror taxes irl. We would most probably have to add to that a few other non-crafter items sold by NPCs that everyone wanted and had to be purchased with gold... various mounts, perhaps siege weapons or vanity items for housing. There would have to be a decent amount of things to buy for gold from NPCs that players would be interested in having and that crafters could not make.
The other option, is to do entirely without a currency and work on a barter system. But in that case RvRers would need something to trade. This might be crafting materials, but that is a bit of a closed loop system that will not make for a very compelling economy, and something crafters might demand even in a gold economy (mats + 500 gold for the sword please).
Just a few nit-picks. Its not taxes that make money valuable, its the perceived value of money that makes it valuable. Historically this value was pegged to: a) a weight of metal b) a fixed unit of labor (day, week, month or year) or c) a staple commodity (ie a bushel of wheat). Today most developed economies have a floating currency which allows the relative strength of its currency to be determined vis a vis other currencies.
Your are right however, that NPCs can serve to "peg" the value of a copper/silver/gold by having a fixed purchase value of materials.
For example if players know that NPCs will buy Minotaur Hide for 1G , faire wings for 1S and Oak logs for 1C. What this does for the economy is in theory set the price floor for these goods and likely to have it trade higher. The US government (among others) does something similar to this with several commodities already and it wouldn't be too far a stretch to have it in CU.
I think its fine, for money to just be given to players from kills. Imagine as it been the US just mashing out bills, if there is more money out there, then people will charge more for things. simple as that. what the game then needs to do unlike other games is then take more money out of the economy through taxes or fees. not so good for new players maybe...
Another way you could perhaps do thinks is make an RVR kill worth more the more money is in your realms kitty...it you could an algorithm to sort out how many kills there are each week etc and pay people people based off that, each week that amount could be adjusted based off how much the realm earned through taxes, from build fees, trades etc....whole thing could take more of an economy expert to work out.
but essentially you would have RvR's working for the realm, and been paid by them and crafted would work for themselves but still be taxed on their earnings, you would need to make it so that crafting has a value though, in wow it simply doesn't work, items crafted are sometimes worth less than their base mats, perhaps with limited crafters available this might be possible but also i think by having the best crafting stations and resources in enemy lands then you could perhaps perhaps turn a profit through crafting.
I dont see why there needs to be items drops for an economy, can somebody explain the reasoning behind this thinking, i dont understand it.
There does need to be something limiting currency inflation. If you just magically generate gold by killing someone then in a year we'll be buying a loaf of bread for a million pounds of gold. And thats assuming that a crafter would even take your gold. If gold becomes too heavily inflated in this type of economy everyone will just barter other more scarce resources.
Kills generating gold also really heavily motivates guilds to make alt accounts on an opposing realm and kill farm them for money. Sure you can catch them and ban them sometimes, but you wont get them all, and its better not to encourage it in the first place.
Well first off there was a lot that he didn't reveal about making money whenever he was asked about it
Second I don't need much gold when my friend can make me everything want and the houses come from resources that we gather and I can repair my own stuff.
there does not need to be drops for an economy. Put the good resources where people are forced to RvR. make the game less about having gold coin, and more about moving materials around the world...
I would even go with the idea of a finite money supply. there does have to be money however, and everything in the game should be able to covert to money. if you want a real economy in the game, then money and resources have to start behaving like they should. Having items and gold drop off PVE mobs is a sure way to wreck a game economy. having items that you can not convert to cash is another way to wreck the economy.
Essentially, in the real world, for any currency to have value, it has to be taxed. So if we want to have an in game currency, we need NPCs that require it and that offer something for that currency that we require to continue playing the game or to enhance our gameplay.
In my opinion, the most elegant solution would be that various consumables, needed by either crafters, RvRers, or both, had to be purchased from NPCs. This would mirror taxes irl. We would most probably have to add to that a few other non-crafter items sold by NPCs that everyone wanted and had to be purchased with gold... various mounts, perhaps siege weapons or vanity items for housing. There would have to be a decent amount of things to buy for gold from NPCs that players would be interested in having and that crafters could not make.
The other option, is to do entirely without a currency and work on a barter system. But in that case RvRers would need something to trade. This might be crafting materials, but that is a bit of a closed loop system that will not make for a very compelling economy, and something crafters might demand even in a gold economy (mats + 500 gold for the sword please).
Just a few nit-picks. Its not taxes that make money valuable, its the perceived value of money that makes it valuable. Historically this value was pegged to: a) a weight of metal b) a fixed unit of labor (day, week, month or year) or c) a staple commodity (ie a bushel of wheat). Today most developed economies have a floating currency which allows the relative strength of its currency to be determined vis a vis other currencies.
Your are right however, that NPCs can serve to "peg" the value of a copper/silver/gold by having a fixed purchase value of materials.
For example if players know that NPCs will buy Minotaur Hide for 1G , faire wings for 1S and Oak logs for 1C. What this does for the economy is in theory set the price floor for these goods and likely to have it trade higher. The US government (among others) does something similar to this with several commodities already and it wouldn't be too far a stretch to have it in CU.
I do not want to go totally off subject, but there is a rather convincing set of economic theories which argue that by taxing its citizens in a particular currency the government creates the initial demand for that currency. In other words, just as you say, it creates a perceived value. If you think about it, it does make sense. Your comment that "its the perceived value of money that makes it valuable" is a circular argument and does not really address the question as it just leads to a new question: "What makes people perceive a currency (a bit of paper) as having value?". Yes it has value because people demand it as payment. But the first entity to demand it as payment is the state. If the state did not tax in its own currency there would be no initial condition making the currency of value and nothing stopping people from adopting any other old bit of paper for their currency. For your own reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism . This is not the only source for this theory and is a common claim made by several more mainstream economists as well.
NPCs may also serve to peg a bottom value for a product, but if you only have NPCs buying things, your currency will have no value and nothing will be sold to them anyways. You need to have NPCs selling objects you cannot find elsewhere and that people want to create value for the currency.This is a hidden form of in-game taxation. We could also add rent /upkeep for housing as another form of in-game tax which would give value to the currency. If you have a currency, you need some form of tax, otherwise you will immediately evolve into a barter system, which is not necessarily a bad thing tbh, but may be disconcerting for some players.
Well first off there was a lot that he didn't reveal about making money whenever he was asked about it
Second I don't need much gold when my friend can make me everything want and the houses come from resources that we gather and I can repair my own stuff.
Like everything else, it'll center around RvR, I bet.
Awards and bounties paid out by your Realm for RvR missions.
Pocket change from enemy players.
Resources (sellable to crafters) and coin retrieved from looted enemy structures.
And on the 'sink' side, even with your friend donating time and resources to your rustic Cottage of Doom, you'll have to pay the Realm for rights to the plot, and perhaps hire NPC servants to maintain the structure (there's your weekly 'upkeep' cost) or work your field if the plot is large enough... maybe even guards to help keep the bad guys from toasting marshmallows on what used to be your roof.
Well first off there was a lot that he didn't reveal about making money whenever he was asked about it
Second I don't need much gold when my friend can make me everything want and the houses come from resources that we gather and I can repair my own stuff.
Like everything else, it'll center around RvR, I bet.
Awards and bounties paid out by your Realm for RvR missions.
Pocket change from enemy players.
Resources (sellable to crafters) and coin retrieved from looted enemy structures.
And on the 'sink' side, even with your friend donating time and resources to your rustic Cottage of Doom, you'll have to pay the Realm for rights to the plot, and perhaps hire NPC servants to maintain the structure (there's your weekly 'upkeep' cost) or work your field if the plot is large enough... maybe even guards to help keep the bad guys from toasting marshmallows on what used to be your roof.
Lots of ways this could work.
Nail meet hammer!
mj stated that the realm will pay you for your actions, and enemy players drop coin
MMT has its strengths but it relies too heavily on the state as actor especially when it comes to currency. It does a poor job of explaining the rise and persistence of multi-state actors, transnational corporations and flags of convenience. Additionallyy, MMT doesn't have have any explanatory mechanism for non-state actors definitions of value.
That being said, a subscription based MMO with zero risk of externally sourced currency manipulation and only its own ecology to manage would seem like MMT paradise.
I agree that in order to complete the loop, NPCs/the game need to sell something to ensure that there is some upkeep/money sink. The need for a money sink however is less a proof of MMT and more about the problematical nature of theorizing virtual economies.
I say problematical because the fallacy of video games economics is that rarely are there "real life effects" that cause the loss of capital/drain productive activity :
Rarely, does a game force spending for subsistence (food water) which has always the largest "sink" of productive activity.
As far as I know, no game implements natural disasters that cause wide spread hardship or force a societal reconstruction
Outside of EvE, few games have crimes that actually impact capital/currency Few games is there a significant decay/wear effect of equipment which also impacts value There is not "real" rot/wear of structures that requires spending on maintenance
What makes this important to game design, is though games and MMT State Actors both have to address inflationary pressures, the root cause of why they address inflation are different. Games create ex nihlo deflationary effects (taxes, plot leases etc) to mimic "real life" and less to keep fiat inflationary currency at bay. In contrast, MMT assumes that the state has to create deflationary measures to counteract its own inflationary actions.
I don't think a barter system is inherently a bad thing and I fully expect barter to play a key role in this game. Ultimately, this whole debate has been an exercise in teapot academics. What will make a good in game economy is one that is balanced between the three legs of Producers, Consumers and the System, regardless of its theoretical foundation.
Like everything else, it'll center around RvR, I bet.
Awards and bounties paid out by your Realm for RvR missions.
Pocket change from enemy players.
Resources (sellable to crafters) and coin retrieved from looted enemy structures.
And on the 'sink' side, even with your friend donating time and resources to your rustic Cottage of Doom, you'll have to pay the Realm for rights to the plot, and perhaps hire NPC servants to maintain the structure (there's your weekly 'upkeep' cost) or work your field if the plot is large enough... maybe even guards to help keep the bad guys from toasting marshmallows on what used to be your roof.
Lots of ways this could work.
Nail meet hammer!
mj stated that the realm will pay you for your actions, and enemy players drop coin
Take EvE (which is my go to PvP sandbox example). For starting money, they have "Rats" that earn players a bounty for destroying them (along with salvage). Each of the realms could have bounties in place (either on NPCs or even PCs) which help to give players some cash.
What really intrigues me is the way that crafting/gear progression will work. The crafting in EvE is about more than just stats but its also a progression. The longer you play the "cooler" ships you can build/fly. This climb up the ship ladder is part of what keeps EvE in business. CU (or any Fantasy MMO) can't really have quite the same gear progression because it ruins a lot of the cool factor. E.g. starting with daggers and grinding skills up to 2H swords.
The real challenge for crafting in CU will be making the progression fun for everyone. In EvE players actively talk about how close they/corp mate are to making teh cool ships as a matter of self sufficiency and pride. It is my hope that in CU, crafters and the players will just excited about having getting new crafting skills as players are in EvE.
In EvE, the money sink is that ships blow up all the time thus crafters are never out of business. Another major issue for CU crafting is how to avoid over production without making crafting the worst grind in the game.
Instead of having "cooler" ships as you progress, CU would have you crafting and sieging bigger badder buildings. Since these are going to get destroyed, the same demand factor (for mats) comes into play. I would expect the materials required will get quite astounding once you are talking about major fortresses.
I agree weapon progression can't go dagger - sword - polearm, because these weapons serve a better purpose as defining different classes. I would expect there to be a differene between a rough dagger and a masterpiece dagger, however.
MJ mentioned builders would be height limited. Perhaps as you progress you will be able to build taller structures making it easier for your allies to defend against attacks due to Line of Sight advantages, range bonuses from being higher, etc.
But would you ever have time to build that fifth storey?
I agree to some extent. I agree that the building/seigeing aspect of builders will be the easiety to scale the cool factor.
I think the major tactic for weapon/armor progression will materials and enhancements. What will make it "fun" will have to be demonstrated usefulness if differnt levels of armor/weapons not simply a race to the top
You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.
The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.
Players dropping gold is silly, especially if they don't have any gold. To the question of what crafters do with their wealth, thats also simple. They pay fighters to protect them while they mine even more gold, a contract system would be handy for that i guess. Pretty easy stuff, money into escrow, if players x doesn't die for the next y hours player group z1 get awarded the money in escrow.
I mean that seems sensible. Pretty much how stuff worked for thousands of years in rl. Never change a running system.
You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.
The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.
I do not know enough about economics to speak to whether this is practical, but I do like that it would be rooted in the meaningful "real life" experiences of our characters.
After all, I think many of us have played games where Diseased Bears were carrying around 43 Silvers and 24 Coppers as the basis for inserting money into the economy.
Originally posted by PerfArt Why would crafters need currency? It's a bit of a conundrum indeed.
To buy things they need and cant make themselves? To buy materials so they dont have spend time gathering them? So they can buy frivolous things to show off without really losing anything actual value? So they can pay other players to do things they wouldnt otherwise be willing to do? To waste publicly to spite people that are poor?
You know, all the things people use money for in real life.
You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.
The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.
I do not know enough about economics to speak to whether this is practical, but I do like that it would be rooted in the meaningful "real life" experiences of our characters.
After all, I think many of us have played games where Diseased Bears were carrying around 43 Silvers and 24 Coppers as the basis for inserting money into the economy.
I think the coin that fell off the diseased bears could easily be perceived as a government bounty on said bears... with the middle man removed. I like the idea that coin be paid by the kingdom to those doing work that serves the kingdom, i.e. RvR related tasks such as killing enemy combatants, building defensive structures, claiming enemy territory.
Perhaps... JUST PERHAPS... there could be small semi-PvE related components which might still reflect on RvR aspects of the game and would thus be worthy of some coinage. For instance:
"A small band of Vikings (NPCs) has set up camp in the northern forests of the TDD. Chase them out!"
This might serve one or more purposes: (1) Develop a kind of standard price for similar tasks, (2) provide opportunities for coinage when RvR action is scarce, (3) spur RvR action as, in the case of my example, both TDD and Vikings might be notified of the Viking settlement and be encouraged to participate in the battle... maybe Albion, too!
Perhaps the frequency of said events could be a function (inverse variation, in this case) of the amount of RvR opportunities available to any realm at a given time.
Just a thought...
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.
The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.
I do not know enough about economics to speak to whether this is practical, but I do like that it would be rooted in the meaningful "real life" experiences of our characters.
After all, I think many of us have played games where Diseased Bears were carrying around 43 Silvers and 24 Coppers as the basis for inserting money into the economy.
I think the coin that fell off the diseased bears could easily be perceived as a government bounty on said bears... with the middle man removed. I like the idea that coin be paid by the kingdom to those doing work that serves the kingdom, i.e. RvR related tasks such as killing enemy combatants, building defensive structures, claiming enemy territory.
Perhaps... JUST PERHAPS... there could be small semi-PvE related components which might still reflect on RvR aspects of the game and would thus be worthy of some coinage. For instance:
"A small band of Vikings (NPCs) has set up camp in the northern forests of the TDD. Chase them out!"
This might serve one or more purposes: (1) Develop a kind of standard price for similar tasks, (2) provide opportunities for coinage when RvR action is scarce, (3) spur RvR action as, in the case of my example, both TDD and Vikings might be notified of the Viking settlement and be encouraged to participate in the battle... maybe Albion, too!
Perhaps the frequency of said events could be a function (inverse variation, in this case) of the amount of RvR opportunities available to any realm at a given time.
Just a thought...
In terms of PvE loot, I do not care for it. In the vein of wanting something more and different, I do not want to see any drops other than resources you might expect to find (e.g., hides, teeth, fur) from these bears. I would not want drops of money, minerals or items of the same types crafter's can make (e.g., MJ's hummingbird and its magical ring). Make sure the drops are useful so it will have value to the character or resold to someone who can use it. I would not have "junk" items, but for items for which there is not a ready buyer, I would allow for NPC vendors to buy these items and thereby establishing a base value.
I think using PvE scenarios to encourage more RvR engagement is brilliant. I would avoid turning this into a standard quest mechanism with its own known rewards, but rather use it to get folks out into the world. And, maybe instead of just finding Vikings (PCs responding to a similar notice) you find a group of guards and miners (NPCs) beginning to exploit a new silver resource. The fight ensues and to the winner goes the spoils!
In measured and unpredictable doses, I think this kind of PvE could be great fun and re-enforce the RvR core of the game. We just want to make sure PvE does not become the focus.
Comments
While I agree those things are important, I think that the way the Economy works will be integral to game design because it will be the a key element of the game. Though RvR is the foundation of CU, what will separate CU from a tactical combat simulation will be the economy and the way the each realm is able to optimize its economy to fuel its war machine.
Logistics will win this game.
To the main topic:
Take EvE (which is my go to PvP sandbox example). For starting money, they have "Rats" that earn players a bounty for destroying them (along with salvage). Each of the realms could have bounties in place (either on NPCs or even PCs) which help to give players some cash.
What really intrigues me is the way that crafting/gear progression will work. The crafting in EvE is about more than just stats but its also a progression. The longer you play the "cooler" ships you can build/fly. This climb up the ship ladder is part of what keeps EvE in business. CU (or any Fantasy MMO) can't really have quite the same gear progression because it ruins a lot of the cool factor. E.g. starting with daggers and grinding skills up to 2H swords.
The real challenge for crafting in CU will be making the progression fun for everyone. In EvE players actively talk about how close they/corp mate are to making teh cool ships as a matter of self sufficiency and pride. It is my hope that in CU, crafters and the players will just excited about having getting new crafting skills as players are in EvE.
In EvE, the money sink is that ships blow up all the time thus crafters are never out of business. Another major issue for CU crafting is how to avoid over production without making crafting the worst grind in the game.
I think the hostility got to him.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Essentially, in the real world, for any currency to have value, it has to be taxed. So if we want to have an in game currency, we need NPCs that require it and that offer something for that currency that we require to continue playing the game or to enhance our gameplay.
In my opinion, the most elegant solution would be that various consumables, needed by either crafters, RvRers, or both, had to be purchased from NPCs. This would mirror taxes irl. We would most probably have to add to that a few other non-crafter items sold by NPCs that everyone wanted and had to be purchased with gold... various mounts, perhaps siege weapons or vanity items for housing. There would have to be a decent amount of things to buy for gold from NPCs that players would be interested in having and that crafters could not make.
The other option, is to do entirely without a currency and work on a barter system. But in that case RvRers would need something to trade. This might be crafting materials, but that is a bit of a closed loop system that will not make for a very compelling economy, and something crafters might demand even in a gold economy (mats + 500 gold for the sword please).
Or maybe he's actually taking a legit vacation away from work? Or if I may be cynical, he doesn't have to sell the game anymore?
Sure there's a lot of doubters here but there are relatively few trolls.
He and the rest of the CSE team are on a well-deserved vacation. Just my guess, but I would expect to hear from him on Monday.
I don't want to derail my own thread, but...
This is one of the most brutal and complete dismantlings of a troll I've ever seen. Well done!
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
Just a few nit-picks. Its not taxes that make money valuable, its the perceived value of money that makes it valuable. Historically this value was pegged to: a) a weight of metal b) a fixed unit of labor (day, week, month or year) or c) a staple commodity (ie a bushel of wheat). Today most developed economies have a floating currency which allows the relative strength of its currency to be determined vis a vis other currencies.
Your are right however, that NPCs can serve to "peg" the value of a copper/silver/gold by having a fixed purchase value of materials.
For example if players know that NPCs will buy Minotaur Hide for 1G , faire wings for 1S and Oak logs for 1C. What this does for the economy is in theory set the price floor for these goods and likely to have it trade higher. The US government (among others) does something similar to this with several commodities already and it wouldn't be too far a stretch to have it in CU.
I think its fine, for money to just be given to players from kills. Imagine as it been the US just mashing out bills, if there is more money out there, then people will charge more for things. simple as that. what the game then needs to do unlike other games is then take more money out of the economy through taxes or fees. not so good for new players maybe...
Another way you could perhaps do thinks is make an RVR kill worth more the more money is in your realms kitty...it you could an algorithm to sort out how many kills there are each week etc and pay people people based off that, each week that amount could be adjusted based off how much the realm earned through taxes, from build fees, trades etc....whole thing could take more of an economy expert to work out.
but essentially you would have RvR's working for the realm, and been paid by them and crafted would work for themselves but still be taxed on their earnings, you would need to make it so that crafting has a value though, in wow it simply doesn't work, items crafted are sometimes worth less than their base mats, perhaps with limited crafters available this might be possible but also i think by having the best crafting stations and resources in enemy lands then you could perhaps perhaps turn a profit through crafting.
I dont see why there needs to be items drops for an economy, can somebody explain the reasoning behind this thinking, i dont understand it.
SKYeXile
TRF - GM - GW2, PS2, WAR, AION, Rift, WoW, WOT....etc...
Future Crew - High Council. Planetside 1 & 2.
There does need to be something limiting currency inflation. If you just magically generate gold by killing someone then in a year we'll be buying a loaf of bread for a million pounds of gold. And thats assuming that a crafter would even take your gold. If gold becomes too heavily inflated in this type of economy everyone will just barter other more scarce resources.
Kills generating gold also really heavily motivates guilds to make alt accounts on an opposing realm and kill farm them for money. Sure you can catch them and ban them sometimes, but you wont get them all, and its better not to encourage it in the first place.
Well first off there was a lot that he didn't reveal about making money whenever he was asked about it
Second I don't need much gold when my friend can make me everything want and the houses come from resources that we gather and I can repair my own stuff.
there does not need to be drops for an economy. Put the good resources where people are forced to RvR. make the game less about having gold coin, and more about moving materials around the world...
I would even go with the idea of a finite money supply. there does have to be money however, and everything in the game should be able to covert to money. if you want a real economy in the game, then money and resources have to start behaving like they should. Having items and gold drop off PVE mobs is a sure way to wreck a game economy. having items that you can not convert to cash is another way to wreck the economy.
I do not want to go totally off subject, but there is a rather convincing set of economic theories which argue that by taxing its citizens in a particular currency the government creates the initial demand for that currency. In other words, just as you say, it creates a perceived value. If you think about it, it does make sense. Your comment that "its the perceived value of money that makes it valuable" is a circular argument and does not really address the question as it just leads to a new question: "What makes people perceive a currency (a bit of paper) as having value?". Yes it has value because people demand it as payment. But the first entity to demand it as payment is the state. If the state did not tax in its own currency there would be no initial condition making the currency of value and nothing stopping people from adopting any other old bit of paper for their currency. For your own reference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism . This is not the only source for this theory and is a common claim made by several more mainstream economists as well.
NPCs may also serve to peg a bottom value for a product, but if you only have NPCs buying things, your currency will have no value and nothing will be sold to them anyways. You need to have NPCs selling objects you cannot find elsewhere and that people want to create value for the currency.This is a hidden form of in-game taxation. We could also add rent /upkeep for housing as another form of in-game tax which would give value to the currency. If you have a currency, you need some form of tax, otherwise you will immediately evolve into a barter system, which is not necessarily a bad thing tbh, but may be disconcerting for some players.
Like everything else, it'll center around RvR, I bet.
And on the 'sink' side, even with your friend donating time and resources to your rustic Cottage of Doom, you'll have to pay the Realm for rights to the plot, and perhaps hire NPC servants to maintain the structure (there's your weekly 'upkeep' cost) or work your field if the plot is large enough... maybe even guards to help keep the bad guys from toasting marshmallows on what used to be your roof.
Lots of ways this could work.
Nail meet hammer!
mj stated that the realm will pay you for your actions, and enemy players drop coin
MMT has its strengths but it relies too heavily on the state as actor especially when it comes to currency. It does a poor job of explaining the rise and persistence of multi-state actors, transnational corporations and flags of convenience. Additionallyy, MMT doesn't have have any explanatory mechanism for non-state actors definitions of value.That being said, a subscription based MMO with zero risk of externally sourced currency manipulation and only its own ecology to manage would seem like MMT paradise.
I agree that in order to complete the loop, NPCs/the game need to sell something to ensure that there is some upkeep/money sink. The need for a money sink however is less a proof of MMT and more about the problematical nature of theorizing virtual economies.
I say problematical because the fallacy of video games economics is that rarely are there "real life effects" that cause the loss of capital/drain productive activity :
- Rarely, does a game force spending for subsistence (food water) which has always the largest "sink" of productive activity.
- As far as I know, no game implements natural disasters that cause wide spread hardship or force a societal reconstruction
- Outside of EvE, few games have crimes that actually impact capital/currency Few games is there a significant decay/wear effect of equipment which also impacts value There is not "real" rot/wear of structures that requires spending on maintenance
What makes this important to game design, is though games and MMT State Actors both have to address inflationary pressures, the root cause of why they address inflation are different. Games create ex nihlo deflationary effects (taxes, plot leases etc) to mimic "real life" and less to keep fiat inflationary currency at bay. In contrast, MMT assumes that the state has to create deflationary measures to counteract its own inflationary actions.I don't think a barter system is inherently a bad thing and I fully expect barter to play a key role in this game. Ultimately, this whole debate has been an exercise in teapot academics. What will make a good in game economy is one that is balanced between the three legs of Producers, Consumers and the System, regardless of its theoretical foundation.
I agree with both of you
Agreed. In any case we agree on the conclusion.
Instead of having "cooler" ships as you progress, CU would have you crafting and sieging bigger badder buildings. Since these are going to get destroyed, the same demand factor (for mats) comes into play. I would expect the materials required will get quite astounding once you are talking about major fortresses.
I agree weapon progression can't go dagger - sword - polearm, because these weapons serve a better purpose as defining different classes. I would expect there to be a differene between a rough dagger and a masterpiece dagger, however.
MJ mentioned builders would be height limited. Perhaps as you progress you will be able to build taller structures making it easier for your allies to defend against attacks due to Line of Sight advantages, range bonuses from being higher, etc.
But would you ever have time to build that fifth storey?
I think the major tactic for weapon/armor progression will materials and enhancements. What will make it "fun" will have to be demonstrated usefulness if differnt levels of armor/weapons not simply a race to the top
Where will the money come from?
Simple.
Coin Forges.
You take a lump of gold, put it into a coin forge, and presto a gold coin is born.
The interesting question is, where does the gold come from? Well, probably mines. At the borders of the three realms right in the middle of the map.
Players dropping gold is silly, especially if they don't have any gold. To the question of what crafters do with their wealth, thats also simple. They pay fighters to protect them while they mine even more gold, a contract system would be handy for that i guess. Pretty easy stuff, money into escrow, if players x doesn't die for the next y hours player group z1 get awarded the money in escrow.
I mean that seems sensible. Pretty much how stuff worked for thousands of years in rl. Never change a running system.
I do not know enough about economics to speak to whether this is practical, but I do like that it would be rooted in the meaningful "real life" experiences of our characters.
After all, I think many of us have played games where Diseased Bears were carrying around 43 Silvers and 24 Coppers as the basis for inserting money into the economy.
To buy things they need and cant make themselves? To buy materials so they dont have spend time gathering them? So they can buy frivolous things to show off without really losing anything actual value? So they can pay other players to do things they wouldnt otherwise be willing to do? To waste publicly to spite people that are poor?
You know, all the things people use money for in real life.
I think the coin that fell off the diseased bears could easily be perceived as a government bounty on said bears... with the middle man removed. I like the idea that coin be paid by the kingdom to those doing work that serves the kingdom, i.e. RvR related tasks such as killing enemy combatants, building defensive structures, claiming enemy territory.
Perhaps... JUST PERHAPS... there could be small semi-PvE related components which might still reflect on RvR aspects of the game and would thus be worthy of some coinage. For instance:
"A small band of Vikings (NPCs) has set up camp in the northern forests of the TDD. Chase them out!"
This might serve one or more purposes: (1) Develop a kind of standard price for similar tasks, (2) provide opportunities for coinage when RvR action is scarce, (3) spur RvR action as, in the case of my example, both TDD and Vikings might be notified of the Viking settlement and be encouraged to participate in the battle... maybe Albion, too!
Perhaps the frequency of said events could be a function (inverse variation, in this case) of the amount of RvR opportunities available to any realm at a given time.
Just a thought...
Emeryc Eightdrakes - Ranger of DragonMyst Keep - Percival
RED IS DEAD!
In terms of PvE loot, I do not care for it. In the vein of wanting something more and different, I do not want to see any drops other than resources you might expect to find (e.g., hides, teeth, fur) from these bears. I would not want drops of money, minerals or items of the same types crafter's can make (e.g., MJ's hummingbird and its magical ring). Make sure the drops are useful so it will have value to the character or resold to someone who can use it. I would not have "junk" items, but for items for which there is not a ready buyer, I would allow for NPC vendors to buy these items and thereby establishing a base value.
I think using PvE scenarios to encourage more RvR engagement is brilliant. I would avoid turning this into a standard quest mechanism with its own known rewards, but rather use it to get folks out into the world. And, maybe instead of just finding Vikings (PCs responding to a similar notice) you find a group of guards and miners (NPCs) beginning to exploit a new silver resource. The fight ensues and to the winner goes the spoils!
In measured and unpredictable doses, I think this kind of PvE could be great fun and re-enforce the RvR core of the game. We just want to make sure PvE does not become the focus.