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MMO purpose of playing never changes and it's not fun
Cryomatrix
Member EpicPosts: 3,223
Quick background about myself.
I used to play diablo 2 hardcore servers only PK/duel all legitimately. Achievement in hardcore was based on survival. I also briefly played WoW for 3 months, Lineage 2 for 6 months, Entropia for a 6 months, Runes of Magic for 3 months, and EVE for 2 years (best game I wish i never quit). Ryzom for 3 months.
So i just started playing Neverwinter Nights recently and I realized, other than the Foundry, the game itself offers nothing but the following.
1) Hit max level
2) raid for tier 1 gear to
3) then raid higher level dungeons to get tier 2 gear to
4) then raid higher dungeons to get tier 3
5) rinse and repeat
End Result: You have shiny new gear but each time you play it will still take you same time to kill the monsters. You upgrade to tier 3 and do higher level dungeon you still take the same time to kill monster so there is no change at the end. It's the same as leveling from 1-60 with regular gear.
This is akin to making $50,000/year putting it all towards a house with no money left over and then you make $100,000/year, upgrade to a bigger house putting all your money into it and you again have no money left but a bigger house. Then you make $200,000 and upgrade to a bigger house with no money again.
So at the end of the day, you have a bigger house(i.e. shinier gear) but your life hasn't really changed. No vacations or luxury items always strapped for cash(i.e. still takes same time to kill the mobs you will fight).
How is this possibly fun? This is why I can't get involved in any of these MMO's. You are truly a hamster in a wheel.
SOLUTION:
- make an MMO with actual exploration . . . it's not difficult, huge world with benefits, server shoutouts, and whatever for finding a new place and then having the guild to fend off the mobs or make it so a guild would have to pool resources together to build a boat to reach certain content.
- Bring back hardcore server as in diablo 2, you need to change the mechanics but make it so if you reach lvl X it is an accomplishment in and of itself. I know people won't want to lose their gear but I think if people played intelligently and you could stabilize servers 99% then you could get away with it. Of course you're not going to attract main stream but have softcore servers too.
Oh well. I had to get that off my chest. I don't understand the raid mentality. Nothing changes, no one is unique, you're just a hamster on a wheel. I remember the days of diablo 2 HC circa 2000-2001 where people would show each other their rare items because everyone had different gear. If you were level 45 (max was 99) you got congratulated.
Enjoy. Now if the foundry wasn't bugged on my machine, I'd try to create something very detailed.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Comments
As I recall, players in Diablo 2 spent a lot of time running the same things over and over again for shinier gear too. Just because they slapped some random properties on the gear doesn't magically mean you weren't a hamster on a wheel.
Most level-based MMOs are going to be an endless chase for the next tier of content. I'd say look toward skill-based MMOs if you want more diversity. You might also want to try EQ2 or some of the older level-based games because they've branched content out in other directions over the years, giving you more things to do than get your T1 to get your T2 to get your T3, etc.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh, yes. Diablo is the quintessential gear grind game. You were very much a hamster on a wheel.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Its the same in every game with progression. It doesn't matter whether the game has classes or no, it is always going to be a "chase towards the next tier" like you said.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I agree dude and it is really simple,developers are making these games for profit and no other reason.If yo uor i were to design a game it would be full of character and content,not these unrealistic ideas that every dev copies from one another.
As for the Foundry,i am not a Founder ,so i am not too sure just good the tools are to be able to create anything meaningful.I have been creating stuff on much better game engines for years and i consider my self to be quite creative.I am itching and wish i could give it a try but i am really struggling to keep playing.
I did go back and try to play a Control Wizard.and just found out i was missing out on the Mastery idea,didn't know about it until i was reading up on the CW.It does add that extra umph and i feel the CW is so far the best class in the game,but i have no tried the rogue type,not sure i will as i am satisfied with the CW and how it plays.
SO who knows if it can keep me going ,i might eventually fork over some money and see what i can do with the Foundry.
On paper it is a great idea,i have been calling for this for years now.The problem is it needs to have a lot of tools and depth and from what i have seen of creations,it looks rather limited.
This idea would really set this game apart if they totally opened up the Foundry/editor to importing.
That is exactly what made the Unreal community huge,it attracted some of the best minds in gaming i have ever seen.The problem is with Perfect World i expect nothing at all.
I did some homework and looked up the information and PW purchased Cryptic from Atari.I am pretty sure PW is not a creative thinker,i expect the same old we see in every game for game evolving into the future.I expect more maps,maybe a new class or two but i doubt the Foundry tools will see any improvement.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Lateral progression vrs Vertical progression.
One dosn't offer any difference in gameplay only numbers for your character, while the other can completely alter your character and play style.
Best example I can think of is armor skills in Monster Hunter.
The illusion of ever-increasing wealth and power is a powerful motivator and it's a model that, once a developer has it, can be repeated indefinitely with coats of new paint. These sorts of treadmill mechanics are not inherently bad as long as players enjoy the gameplay along the way. It's when the gameplay itself starts feeling dull and repetitive, than the illusion starts to break down.
My problem with this is that I play to be challenged, and MMOs tends to force players to repeat the same content you already completed many times which means it stops to be challenging fast.
Neverwinters strong point is indeed the foundry and here lies the replay-ability. They could have skipped the Wow progression and focused more on player created stuff instead.
The Secret World did do a good job of adding to the mix with its emphasis on story and puzzle missions that require some thinking.
SWTOR tried to bring something new to MMOs with voice acting and story that lets you choose your responses.
I think both are neat games, and both suffer from the same flaw as far as I'm concerned as a mostly solo player: Once it boils down to going out to kill some mobs for gear and levels (or in the case of TSW skill points) both become a boring generic grind.
This is where I'd love to see Anarchy Online's true successor. In that game you could grind through the mobs with the usual boring, steady killing power and level appropriate gear. Or you could take some time and effort to twink out a character and then go slaughter mobs much faster, or you could go out and kill mobs of much higher level than you. The open world teams with pocket tanks holding aggro were kind of fun to hang out and socialize in, too. They actually provided much more opportunity for chit-chat than quest groups and dungeon groups that are always on the go. Kiting was fun, too, and was actually a challenge instead of just a time taker.
This of course completely screws with timetables on how long it should take a player to reach cap and what level players will be in what areas. Too bad for the devs on that, they can get over their timetables. However AO also had the worst economy of any MMO I ever played, and that probably has a lot to do with the demand for the best items to twink with and the insane farming potential.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Diablo 2 prior to the xpac around 2000-2001 on the hardcore servers was not a gear grind at all. Later versions were because they basically allowed you to farm bosses. All you ever did was farm bosses for the correct uniques and then all characters looked the same . . .
When you were allowed to farm bosses that basically made it so there was no point at all for any gear but what was considered best for your character. That made 99.9% of the gear useless.
The foundry is actually pretty decent but it is buggy on my computer so it keeps crashing.
Thanks for the responses.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Like eve or ps2
Honestly, the best moments in MMO's I had were the following in no particular order.
1) Making billion isk per week in EVE trading in my mining zone in 0.0 space with my alliance that i hated.
2) In SWG I had a weapons store and I was known for building weapons. People came to me for the weapons. I joined the game very late though. Going into people's stores was an amazing aspect of the game.
3) In entropia where I won $300 on one kill . . . net loss in the game was $400 though lol.
4) In WoW circa 2004 where I had a few band of players with me and I went ganking in some crater area for a few hours.
Anyway, EVE was the best game that I played and offers a very nice alternative. But since I quit 4.5 years ago, I could never go back without having the two characters that were skilled for 2 years and liquid isk in the billions.
I tried Vanguard but way too buggy to enjoy the experience. Ryzom was fun to a certain point but at the end of the day it really offered no end-game and nothing to do at all.
If you can't affect the world and/or have reknown then what's the point.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
If we want to take it to the extreme then we can say a person is always progressing so there will always be a next tier of something all the time in everything everywhere. However, he is specifically talking about playing to an end only to get a new end to play to for a new end to play to for a new end to play to etc, in a single, linear path.
However, not every game is a single-direction chase for the next tier. In most skill-based and social MMOs you have more breadth to the content and more diversity in gameplay.
In UO, there is no top gear to race to. In stats, the PvPers were the 7xGMs, but many players rarely pursued such things and some, especially in RP circles, found much of the skill progression almost irrelevant to their gameplay.
In EVE, you are not training frigates to train cruisers to train destroyers dot dot dot to motherships. You don't need to have a full set of Meta 7 gear in combat.
In Furcadia, Socialotron, Second Life, Muxlim, vMTV, There or any other MMO focused on socializing not only are there usually far more diverse things to do, but "grind for progression" isn't even a concept.
Puzzle Pirates, Free Realms, ATITD... there's simply no gear treadmill in most skill-based and social MMOs. Look at the expansions for level-based MMOs compared to skill-based ones and you can clearly see that the level-based ones greatly outweigh the skill based ones when it comes to features that are nothing more than piling the next level on top of a single content path rather than broadening the scope of content that already exists.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What was the point of beating levels in Portal, Mario, Zelda, or Bioshock? The only thing you gain is the ability to attempt the next level.
The answer: some people play games for fun.
Why would you criticize that part of Neverwinter?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Simple answer is PvP. Once you know the PvE mechanics, all PvE is Stand at X position use Y ability. PvP, on the other hand has dynamic qualities, which leads to a broader spectrum of gameplay.
Edit: OP, have you tried Darkfall: Unholy Wars?
Those are games where the object is to get to the end, beat it, and move on to the next game. Are you suggesting that MMOs are or should be designed with the same intent?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Er, more and more it seems like perhaps MMO's really are being designed with that intent, at least for a large portion of the player base.
Not saying they should be, I prefer games more like EVE where the "end" isn't so clearly defined, nor does the progression curve feel so repetitive which seems to true of gear grinding theme parks (IMO)
But these sorts of titles are few and far between nowadays, but always hope on the horizon that some new designs are coming
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree on both points.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A very happy hamster i may add.
Yeah .. i don't see why not. Consumer the content and move on to new experience. When the game releases more content, come back if you like the first time around (not unlike DLC on Sp games).
It seems like more and more there is a market for that. I can definitely envision something like Neverwinter, but without the pointless city zones and with a Foundry that carries all themes, styles and manners of game content and environments.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I feel the same way. The open world zones are really not adding to the fun, and only force me to run around backtracking. All the NWO content would be better, for me, to be access from a lobby .. and when i am done with them, i can "quit" and come back only when there are new missions.