Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus

MMOExposed · May 2013

Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus...

This is my idea on how it should be done.

Two things I like to explain first:

Self Progression & Group Progression.

Self progression is things that progress the character themselves. Such as character levels, or skill levels, or better gear, or better skills, etc.

Group progression is things that progress the social group, like guilds or factions.

For PvE to work in a game like this without being sacrificed, I suggest not getting rid of PvE, but to make all PvE group focused progression. No self progression.

So every mob you fight, every PvE boss you defeat, enhances your faction's progression in some way. This way, a single character's actions apply to the whole faction instead of the modern day selfish progression system. This way PvEers also help their PvP playerbase.. This faction progression has to be something the collective group of players in the faction can visually see.

I have and idea for a faction progression system, but I let you come up with your part from this.

redcapp · May 2013

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus...

This is my idea on how it should be done.

Two things I like to explain first:

Self Progression & Group Progression.

Self progression is things that progress the character themselves. Such as character levels, or skill levels, or better gear, or better skills, etc.

Group progression is things that progress the social group, like guilds or factions.

For PvE to work in a game like this without being sacrificed, I suggest not getting rid of PvE, but to make all PvE group focused progression. No self progression.

So every mob you fight, every PvE boss you defeat, enhances your faction's progression in some way. This way, a single character's actions apply to the whole faction instead of the modern day selfish progression system. This way PvEers also help their PvP playerbase.. This faction progression has to be something the collective group of players in the faction can visually see.

I have and idea for a faction progression system, but I let you come up with your part from this.

Have you read the Foundational Principles for this game?

Caledore · May 2013

Here's the thing - they should do nothing to please PvE fans, because this is not a game for PvE fans. Too many MMORPGs have been watered down because the developers have tried to appease multiple fan bases, which just leads to a bunch of sub-par sections of the game - and it's pretty clear that CSE shares this viewpoint.

They won't do anything to appease PvE fans because that is not the intended audience. It would be like the creators of a hockey game feeling like they have to appease football fans. Why should they? They're not making a game for football fans, even if a hockey game is a type of sports game. Just because this is an MMORPG doesn't mean it needs to cater to every MMORPG player.

Bladestrom · May 2013

They should set up another server where the whole universe is high sec. Pvpers continue to have the eve they love, plus a different style of pvp as a bonus if they fancy a chafe, and ccp get massive revenue from pve lovers that will help fund massively and provide a bigger player base for both servers ultimately. Original server needs to stay as is though to be loyal to the existing player base - that's the mistake other mmorgs have made.

Tamanous · May 2013

Evidently most either forgot or didn't play DAoC ... but pve in that game sucked. It was something you had to grind through in order to get to RvR and nothing more. It isn't needed if pve is done right and integrated as a functional system withing RvR. I think CU can do this better than DAoC and appears to be doing so. Pve then becomes something that can be expanded on after release as actual RvR content. It needs to be redefined or you continue to generate confusion over the subject.

I do not understanding what is meant by "ticking off PvE players". This ISN'T a PvE game.

This game may not be for you. It is up to the individual to decide. You cannot make this game into a PvE game by making endless threads. CU may not be the game for you. It may not be the game for me either. Time will tell. It IS going to be the game for many RvR lovers of those who find they like the game for what it is and that is the entire point: accept CU for what it is or move on.

Followers of the game wish to talk about what the game will be and not what the game is not. Any subject about what the game is not is trolling.

Bladestrom · May 2013

The game has many Pvers in it, much pve content, allways has- unfortunately the pve is poorly conceived, which is a pity because it is an amazing universe.

meddyck · May 2013

So by "both PvE fans" I take it you mean there are only 2 of you? In that case CSE can safely ignore you both and continue to make CU an RvR only game like it was always going to be.

ShakyMo · May 2013

Lol, yeah if there's only 2 of you why bother.

Zinzan · May 2013

Originally posted by Tamanous
Evidently most either forgot or didn't play DAoC ... but pve in that game sucked. It was something you had to grind through in order to get to RvR and nothing more. It isn't needed if pve is done right and integrated as a functional system withing RvR. I think CU can do this better than DAoC and appears to be doing so. Pve then becomes something that can be expanded on after release as actual RvR content. It needs to be redefined or you continue to generate confusion over the subject.

I do not understanding what is meant by "ticking off PvE players". This ISN'T a PvE game.

This game may not be for you. It is up to the individual to decide. You cannot make this game into a PvE game by making endless threads. CU may not be the game for you. It may not be the game for me either. Time will tell. It IS going to be the game for many RvR lovers of those who find they like the game for what it is and that is the entire point: accept CU for what it is or move on.

Followers of the game wish to talk about what the game will be and not what the game is not. Any subject about what the game is not is trolling.

That's a matter of opinion, clearly you never played classic or you wouldn't say such things about pve in DAoC, no one was on the grind back then, it was so hard to get to 50 players were forced to experience the road rather than the destination. Admittedly classic 48-50 was tough and a bit grindy but most of the pve at the time was excellent.

Also it is not trolling to discuss players visions for CU, I think people need to remember this game is not made yet and there will definitely be changes to the model as development progresses. Most KS as with most normally funded games rarely resemble their original concept at release. One released KS funded project has less than 30% of the promised content and functionality.

meddyck · May 2013

Originally posted by Zinzan

That's a matter of opinion, clearly you never played classic or you wouldn't say such things about pve in DAoC, no one was on the grind back then, it was so hard to get to 50 players were forced to experience the road rather than the destination. Admittedly classic 48-50 was tough and a bit grindy but most of the pve at the time was excellent.

Uh what? Leveling was nothing but a grind from 30-50 in classic DAOC. In Alb, you grinded pygmy goblins for days. Then when you got high enough, you grinded witherwoodes for days. The other realms had their own versions that were also pure grind. There wasn't any road to experience unless you mean the road between the several pygmy goblin and witherwoode camps.

Edany · May 2013

Originally posted by Zinzan
Originally posted by Tamanous
Evidently most either forgot or didn't play DAoC ... but pve in that game sucked. It was something you had to grind through in order to get to RvR and nothing more. It isn't needed if pve is done right and integrated as a functional system withing RvR. I think CU can do this better than DAoC and appears to be doing so. Pve then becomes something that can be expanded on after release as actual RvR content. It needs to be redefined or you continue to generate confusion over the subject.

I do not understanding what is meant by "ticking off PvE players". This ISN'T a PvE game.

This game may not be for you. It is up to the individual to decide. You cannot make this game into a PvE game by making endless threads. CU may not be the game for you. It may not be the game for me either. Time will tell. It IS going to be the game for many RvR lovers of those who find they like the game for what it is and that is the entire point: accept CU for what it is or move on.

Followers of the game wish to talk about what the game will be and not what the game is not. Any subject about what the game is not is trolling.

That's a matter of opinion, clearly you never played classic or you wouldn't say such things about pve in DAoC, no one was on the grind back then, it was so hard to get to 50 players were forced to experience the road rather than the destination. Admittedly classic 48-50 was tough and a bit grindy but most of the pve at the time was excellent.

Also it is not trolling to discuss players visions for CU, I think people need to remember this game is not made yet and there will definitely be changes to the model as development progresses. Most KS as with most normally funded games rarely resemble their original concept at release. One released KS funded project has less than 30% of the promised content and functionality.

There will be no faster road to career suicide than for Mark Jacobs to all of a sudden go against the Foundational Principles that garnered him so much support just to implement traditional PvE in this game. [mod edit]

The only model change I see is perhaps the payment model, and even then, I'm not so sure they won't stick to their guns. Class changes, role changes, combat style changes, CD changes, stealth changes, art style changes, story line changes... yep, all possible.

Changing the entire core and philosophy of the game? [mod edit]

SavageHorizon · May 2013

Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus...

This is my idea on how it should be done.

Two things I like to explain first:

Self Progression & Group Progression.

Self progression is things that progress the character themselves. Such as character levels, or skill levels, or better gear, or better skills, etc.

Group progression is things that progress the social group, like guilds or factions.

For PvE to work in a game like this without being sacrificed, I suggest not getting rid of PvE, but to make all PvE group focused progression. No self progression.

So every mob you fight, every PvE boss you defeat, enhances your faction's progression in some way. This way, a single character's actions apply to the whole faction instead of the modern day selfish progression system. This way PvEers also help their PvP playerbase.. This faction progression has to be something the collective group of players in the faction can visually see.

I have and idea for a faction progression system, but I let you come up with your part from this.

Have you read the Foundational Principles for this game?

Not just that but did he actually back the game, i don't think he did yet he thinks he can comment on how MJ should make his game lol. Here is an open forum but other that that a non backer has no voice, lucky for backers that they don't need non backers, the game has a following and is getting made.

They can't even use the "this game will fail" line lol.

SavageHorizon · May 2013

Originally posted by Bladestrom
They should set up another server where the whole universe is high sec. Pvpers continue to have the eve they love, plus a different style of pvp as a bonus if they fancy a chafe, and ccp get massive revenue from pve lovers that will help fund massively and provide a bigger player base for both servers ultimately. Original server needs to stay as is though to be loyal to the existing player base - that's the mistake other mmorgs have made.

They don't need funding from PVE players lol, the game is being funded by PVP players and is getting made, this is a kickstarter and it doesn't answers to the same rules as a non kickstarter.

Seems you are forgetting this.

TigsKC · May 2013

Originally posted by Edany
Originally posted by Zinzan
Originally posted by Tamanous
Evidently most either forgot or didn't play DAoC ... but pve in that game sucked. It was something you had to grind through in order to get to RvR and nothing more. It isn't needed if pve is done right and integrated as a functional system withing RvR. I think CU can do this better than DAoC and appears to be doing so. Pve then becomes something that can be expanded on after release as actual RvR content. It needs to be redefined or you continue to generate confusion over the subject.

I do not understanding what is meant by "ticking off PvE players". This ISN'T a PvE game.

This game may not be for you. It is up to the individual to decide. You cannot make this game into a PvE game by making endless threads. CU may not be the game for you. It may not be the game for me either. Time will tell. It IS going to be the game for many RvR lovers of those who find they like the game for what it is and that is the entire point: accept CU for what it is or move on.

Followers of the game wish to talk about what the game will be and not what the game is not. Any subject about what the game is not is trolling.

That's a matter of opinion, clearly you never played classic or you wouldn't say such things about pve in DAoC, no one was on the grind back then, it was so hard to get to 50 players were forced to experience the road rather than the destination. Admittedly classic 48-50 was tough and a bit grindy but most of the pve at the time was excellent.

Also it is not trolling to discuss players visions for CU, I think people need to remember this game is not made yet and there will definitely be changes to the model as development progresses. Most KS as with most normally funded games rarely resemble their original concept at release. One released KS funded project has less than 30% of the promised content and functionality.

There will be no faster road to career suicide than for Mark Jacobs to all of a sudden go against the Foundational Principles that garnered him so much support just to implement traditional PvE in this game. [mod edit]

The only model change I see is perhaps the payment model, and even then, I'm not so sure they won't stick to their guns. Class changes, role changes, combat style changes, CD changes, stealth changes, art style changes, story line changes... yep, all possible.

Changing the entire core and philosophy of the game? [mod edit]

As per normal, you have perfectly distilled and crystallized the discussion and concluded the debate..

/thread

MajiinX · May 2013

This is the exact reason I made the post about people complaining about lack of PvE in CU. It really baffles me as to why people insist on PvE, the devs are committed to making this an RvR game and the whole game will be designed and balanced around RvR if they made a PvE server it would loss the essence of what makes this game unique. On top of that adding in PvE will take resources and time that could be allocated into making the RvR better.

I seriously don't understand why people want PvE in CU a game thats foundational principles state no PvE can't just forget this game and focus on ESO. ESO will have RvRvR and tons of PvE. Its like people wanting PvP in a PvE game, I understand the competitive nature of people but why not just play a PvP centric games, sure makes more sense to me.

GKermichil · May 2013

The PvE in this game should be crafting focused only. Wolf teeth, spider venom, dragon scales, etc.. could all come from PvE. Doing it this way keeps all character progression removed from PvE and keeps PvP'ers from having to PvE if they don't want to. They'll just buy the finished product from the crafter. There are plenty of players that would kill creatures for crafting items during down times to keep the crafters well supplied.

I think this is the only compromise that can work. No finished loot, not coin drops, no exp from PvE, simply crafting items. Wolves don't drop bags of gold, but they do have teach, and claws, and furs, and entrails. Any/all of it can be useful to someone else.

Shadanwolf · May 2013

Are we going to have to endure this meaningless banter for 5 years ?

Wizardry · May 2013

I came to the conclusion long ago that they simply cannot mix together unless you completely separate them with two different designs.I do not see any developer put in the effort to do so.

Reason is very simple,once you introduce pvp everyone wants to be equal and i don't blame them.That is not what pve is about and should never be designed to cater to pvp.

FFXi did it right,it made the entire game about PVE but added a pvp bit with no meaning except for players to have some fun,which imo is what it should be about anyhow.

It looks to me like every game and too many players think it is more fun to "compete" versus other players on many levels.I don't like that type of gaming in my rpg's,i prefer players work together and lose all the drama that goes with pvp.

Yes i realize Pve can have drama,but don't confuse lazy/sloppy design with a good one because a solid game allows for thing to go smooth if you are organized.Of course random que ue pugs are never organized,nor is random auto grouping.The whole point is i prefer as little drama in my rpg's as possible,it is why i can't stand pvp in my rpg's.

Every single way i see pvp added you are running the risk of ruining the PVE experience,not good in my books,so separate them completely.

ShakyMo · May 2013

I love how pveers think pve is the only way of working together.

Niix_Ozek · May 2013

Originally posted by Wizardry
I came to the conclusion long ago that they simply cannot mix together unless you completely separate them with two different designs.I do not see any developer put in the effort to do so.

Reason is very simple,once you introduce pvp everyone wants to be equal and i don't blame them.That is not what pve is about and should never be designed to cater to pvp.

FFXi did it right,it made the entire game about PVE but added a pvp bit with no meaning except for players to have some fun,which imo is what it should be about anyhow.

It looks to me like every game and too many players think it is more fun to "compete" versus other players on many levels.I don't like that type of gaming in my rpg's,i prefer players work together and lose all the drama that goes with pvp.

Yes i realize Pve can have drama,but don't confuse lazy/sloppy design with a good one because a solid game allows for thing to go smooth if you are organized.Of course random que ue pugs are never organized,nor is random auto grouping.The whole point is i prefer as little drama in my rpg's as possible,it is why i can't stand pvp in my rpg's.

Every single way i see pvp added you are running the risk of ruining the PVE experience,not good in my books,so separate them completely.

I don't care about pve in this game, but I lack understanding why they don't make games where they are completely autonomous, Abilities can do two things one in pve and one in pvp... some can work the same in both. Armor / etc can all be done different, it really isn't that hard.

ShakyMo · May 2013

I love how pveers think because wow cocks up classes for pve by constantly doing 1vs1 balance chasing the mythical white elephant of Esports in a mmo, that the only soloution is complete segregation.

MajiinX · May 2013

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I love how pveers think pve is the only way of working together.

Its actually ironic because pve is becoming less and less social leveling up in most games is a solo grindfest and dungeons and raids are just repeatable boring encounters that are usually just rehashed verisions of old encounters. Everybody generally knows the fights so in some instances raids and dungeons require little to no social interaction everybody just knows what to do.

PvP is a whole other ball game sure theres solo ganking and things like that but generally PvP requires coordination and interaction. Arena style combat requires extreme coordinating of cool downs, cc and focus targeting, battle grounds require people to work together to take and hold different objectives and world pvp when done right requires getting large groups together to attack and take or defend an objective. Also people are inherently competitive by nature and MMOs create an environment where people always try to be the best they can be and what better way to prove your skill then to directly compete against other players?

The demand for PvP is there why do you think people complain so much about lack of pvp in a certain game? So much to the point that devs have had to add it. WoWs PvP is now almost entirely segregated from PvE. Arena queues are instant, battleground queues are quite short and rated battleground groups are active all the time.

MMOs have unfortunate been becoming less and less social part that is due to design and part of that is due to people having so much experience and spending time watching encounters on youtube that they just know what to do.

CU is an RvRvR game and sure it might be a one trick pony but there are allot of people lining up for a ride and if it s a good trick people will keep on coming back.

Giddian · May 2013

Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by redcapp
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus...

This is my idea on how it should be done.

Two things I like to explain first:

Self Progression & Group Progression.

Self progression is things that progress the character themselves. Such as character levels, or skill levels, or better gear, or better skills, etc.

Group progression is things that progress the social group, like guilds or factions.

For PvE to work in a game like this without being sacrificed, I suggest not getting rid of PvE, but to make all PvE group focused progression. No self progression.

So every mob you fight, every PvE boss you defeat, enhances your faction's progression in some way. This way, a single character's actions apply to the whole faction instead of the modern day selfish progression system. This way PvEers also help their PvP playerbase.. This faction progression has to be something the collective group of players in the faction can visually see.

I have and idea for a faction progression system, but I let you come up with your part from this.

Have you read the Foundational Principles for this game?

Not just that but did he actually back the game, i don't think he did yet he thinks he can comment on how MJ should make his game lol. Here is an open forum but other that that a non backer has no voice, lucky for backers that they don't need non backers, the game has a following and is getting made.

They can't even use the "this game will fail" line lol.

And we all know ONLY backers have an opinion. I didn't see in kickstart that one of the perks of backing was you decide who has an opinion.

I believe the devs will make the game they set out to make despite opinions given.

it is set to be a RvR game. plane and simple. it is a nitch crowd game. play it or don't.

I don't like it when PvPers bash the PvP in PvE games so why do it to theirs?

to me this is a rehash of many topics out there just to Troll.

Sovrath · May 2013

Isn't part of the reason they can make this game for the small budget that they have due to not having pve and concentrating on pvp?

TigsKC · May 2013

Originally posted by Shadanwolf
Are we going to have to endure this meaningless banter for 5 years ?

I certainly hope so!

If we are talking and arguing about CU five years from now, I think that would mean (at minimum) a pretty decent level of success for the project.

Schurge · May 2013

Adding "real" PvE would kill the game for two reasons:

1.) Mark doesn't have the budget to make good PvP and good PvE or even good PvP and bad PvE (or vice versa).

2.) If Mark devoted time to PvE and PvP suffers in any way most people will quit. PvPers are coming here for the PvP and will quit if it sucks. PvEers will come and see that the PvE sucks (no matter what) compared to PvE focused games and thus quit.

End of discussion. It is just not doable. He could however do it in a future expansion but that also would kill the game because it would alienate core player base and won't be likely to attract many PvEers.

----------

That said there seems to be some hybrid PvE that could be elaborated on such as minibosses guarding the rarest resources (though for the record I think that is probably a bad idea for several reasons and there are better way to make rare resources hard to get in a PvP game like putting them in highly contested areas).

I think the Depths will give people who like to do a little PvE on the side something to give that fix.

There is also NO reason why you can't play two games at once or alternate to mix in some PvE. The thing about CU is that Mark is trying to shy away from large power gaps so in theory you are not obligated to play as often as you can to keep up. Taking breaks for PvE in another game will not harm your CU character's progress (again this is in theory).

Realistically this game has very little wiggle room to add PvE as in all likelihood it would harm PvP.

Unlike PvE games with tacked on PvP, this game can't survive with tacked on PvE.

----------

Anyways, I just didn't think the other posters were doing an adequate job of addressing the OP. You have to explain why PvE won't work in this game in order to persuade.

Howdy, Stranger!

Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Hey how PvE should be done to please both PvE fans without ticking off PvP progression focus

Comments