Going to the other areas to PvE after level 50 is a kludge that I suspect was motivated more by development expediency than any other consideration.
When you develop 3 separate 1-50 leveling areas and keep them apart, you are developing content that will only be seen by 1/3 of the players. Instead of developing many more end game zones, it's much more economical to give limited access to that content at max level. It's not a coincidence that this announcement came at approximately the same time they said that the unique post-50 PVE zones would not be in the game at release. They're coming later. That is what that was all about.
They also said that they would develop some in-game stories about why you were now going over there to make it consistent. But we have heard nothing more about that,
Being phased there with just other players from your own faction just accentuates the artificial nature of this kludge.
The game is designed so that you wouldn't be mixing in PvE with the other 2 factions. This is exactly the way it was done with Dark Age of Camelot in their core servers at least for the first few years. But DAOC being server based, also allowed them to provide a "go anywhere" PVP server, Mordred, where, as Bill correctly guessed, PVP was scattered to the winds and not focused in the RvR zones. Eventually they also created co-op servers with no PvP anywhere...but that was long after the shark had been jumped. I'm guessing the desire was to go back to the original DAoC core design.
I won't try to get into their reasons for doing this since people love to argue about whether this separation creates more "realm pride" or if realm pride even exists.
But even without getting into the whole realm pride debate, I have been mystified ever since people started to discuss this game why anyone would think that, given that the setting for this MMO is a war between 3 factions, going to the other faction's PvE area is more immersive. Are we so conditioned by WOW that we think doing it in a more realistic way is less immersive?
Let's say that France, Germany and England got involved in a 3-sided war over control of Belgium and the Netherlands. Would it be more likely or less likely for someone from England to go on a bicycle trip through France and Germany while the war was going on? Wouldn't it be likely that as soon as hostilities broke out, the citizens of each respective country would high tail it home on the first flight and not mix all that much?
So yeah, it's a kludge that attempts to have its cake and eat it too: the realism of no mixing in PvE is maintained but you can still have your bicycle trip... except you have to do it in the twilight zone. But hey, no content goes to waste this way,
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
100% in agreement, Bill. Their implementation of PvP is thwarting the MMO part of the game in so many ways. Their AvAvA system is the sole reason why so many player interactions are not present.
I play MMOs to be with other players. In TES:O's version, there will be (roughly) 2/3 of the player population I can NOT interact with. well... unless I want to fight them Is combat so important these days?
And the NPCs of other factions sprinkled throughout Tamriel is truly immersion breaking. *WE* (the players) can not do this because of "faction pride", aka: faction hate. Yet here are NPCs of the SAME hated races/factions living quite comfortably within enemy territory? That is too much of a stretch for my vivid and healthy imagination.
All because of AvAvA...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Iselin Because I suspect for most of these people wow was their first mmo and their impressions of daoc are based upon gw2s extremely gamey and artificial homage to it.
"I’m very excited about the prospect of key members of the Dark Age of Camelot team designing Elder Scrolls Online Cyrodiil “Alliance vs. Alliance” warfare."
The exact same thing was said about Warhammer Online and how did that game's RvR turned out?
Let's say that France, Germany and England got involved in a 3-sided war over control of Belgium and the Netherlands. Would it be more likely or less likely for someone from England to go on a bicycle trip through France and Germany while the war was going on? Wouldn't it be likely that as soon as hostilities broke out, the citizens of each respective country would high tail it home on the first flight and not mix all that much?
It might not be very likely that people would go on a bicycle trip into enemy territory, but when 3 nations go to war over a piece of territory, those countries tend to poked and prodded and invaded by whoever has the strongest military. Once a war like that actually starts, anything can happen including any one of the three countries getting completely conquered by any one of the other two.
The main fault, as I see it, of this three realm segregated system is that it's overly gamey. Trying to make it sound MORE realistic than other iterations of a war simulations seems so ridiculous to me. It' better to argue that it is superior as a game system than actually trying to compare it to a real war in my opinion.
What interests me the most about Cyrodiil is how much it will resemble open world PvP.
People seem to think of Cyrodiil as only a PvP zone, but we know for a fact that there will be many public dungeons, PvE quests and gathering resources unique to this zone.
Cyrodiil seem to have a nice mix of activities to do, and given its sheer size, will hopefully give a lot of random encounters and replayability, maybe not far away from open world PvP as seen in other games.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Tierless No that is what wow style mmos do.
Let's pretend where a shooter with lobby game pvp.
And perhaps chuck a few servers in their where we just flick a pvp on switch and expect great pvp to just magically happen.
But again I suspect your options are formed based on gw2, where it is pretty much 2 separate games.
ESO is just going to flip a switch and expect great PvP to just magically happen. What is the difference between having 3 factions that never see each other EVER unless in PvP and having 3 factions that never see each other EVER unless in PvP? There is no difference. Everyone uses the same classes and skills with perhaps some weak racial differences. Why does leveling through a different quest line in PvE make any difference? They are both equally gamey and ridiculous.
Basically you can take what GW2 did and apply it nearly perfectly to what ESO is doing. The only difference is that in ESO your race is determined by what faction you pick. At least in GW2's version of RvR you aren't forced into race selection based on factors like what faction your friends/guild play on. It just looks like ESO is even more artificially restricted than GW2 if anything.
I like what they came up with and have no issues with the rationale the article stated could be the reasons behind it. It may be to the dislike of the ganker hardcore PVPers, but it will still satisfy a large group of PVPers while pleasing the PVE crowd that like me likes to dabble in PVP.
"Brian Wheeler was one of the ingredients that made the magic happen in DAOC. He was also part of the WAR team, but we can’t put that game’s failings on one man’s shoulders,"
Right...so, we cant put it on his shoulders for Warhammers failings, but he sure is responsible for DaoC magic!
Rose colored glasses, that is what you are wearing to look at TESO.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
I hope the ESO devs prove me wrong. But, right now I'm wondering why they are implementing PvP into a franchise that has never had PvP in any way, shape or form. My 2 cents goes to making a PvP server and a PvE server. Again, I really hope I'm wrong.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Err because TESO will have actual pvp content like territory to fight over, unlike the wow style pvp some here are advocating.
I never said gw2 was a flick a switch game. I said wow was.
Let's say that France, Germany and England got involved in a 3-sided war over control of Belgium and the Netherlands. Would it be more likely or less likely for someone from England to go on a bicycle trip through France and Germany while the war was going on? Wouldn't it be likely that as soon as hostilities broke out, the citizens of each respective country would high tail it home on the first flight and not mix all that much?
It might not be very likely that people would go on a bicycle trip into enemy territory, but when 3 nations go to war over a piece of territory, those countries tend to poked and prodded and invaded by whoever has the strongest military. Once a war like that actually starts, anything can happen including any one of the three countries getting completely conquered by any one of the other two.
Fair enough. But that's an argument for the war (PvP) to be everywhere. And I agree, that would be more realistic..
But they're not developing it that way. In their minds having "safe" PvE areas and focused world PvP in just a portion of the world are more important. It's not as realistic that way... sort of like they have a gentleman's agreement to only fight in Cyrodiil and not invade each other. Very Victorian of them.
But once they made that design decision which admittedly, defies logic about how nations at war behave, they should at least try to keep that shaky premise consistent. They're already on the edge of not providing a believable environment. Allowing PvE to go everywhere and group with anyone as many have wanted, would push it over the edge into the realm of utter nonsense.
Allowing PvE in the other alliance areas with all the native player characters conveniently removed is, IMHO, just as bad...unless they come up with an interesting reason why you can go there and not see them. Still waiting on that. And hopefully, the reason won't involve anything as cheesy as time travel -- 2nd only to amnesia as the top plot cheat by hack writers.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I need to speak french to answer topic ,then translate it.
Bonjour ,je pense que on devrait s'inspirer du systeme de pvp que warhammer online avait mis en place.
A savoir faire des zones pve ouverte a tous avec impossibilité d'attaquer le camp adverse ,par contre si un joueur tente d'agresser un autre joueur il devient marqué pvp sans pouvoir attaquer qui que se soit tant que personne ne l'attaque.Du coup le joueur agressif se met sur la defensive et se calme car n'importe qui peut maintenant l'agresser par surprise.Bref les combat sont permis mais seulement si voulut par les opposants.
Pour aller en pvp ,les zones seraient indiquées clairement à l'interieur des zone pve et on pourrait les contourner ,Dés que le joueur rentre dans une zone pvp il est marqué pvp d'office au bout de quelque seconndes.Pareillement si il sort de la zone pvp hors combat il perd sa marque pvp et redevient joueur pve.
Les regles étaient ,tout joueur trop puissant pour une zone pvp (au bout de quelque seconde) ou essayant de cibler un joueur moins puissant (instantanément) etait changé en poulet avec 1 point de vie ,la récompense du lache! Les joueurs pve qui essayent d'aider des joueurs en pvp ou marqués pvp sont instanement marqués pvp.
Voila j'ai beaucoup aimé warhammer qui est un grand jeu pour le pvp ,l'animation des mouvements des personnages,l'equilibrage des classes et son monde ouvert pve ,pvp. Je pense que les messieurs de chez war on beaucoup de choses à donner pour la réussite de eso.
Enfermer eso dans des bacs a sable asseptisés pve/pvp va limité le jeu et je pense que c'est la solution de la facilité (et aussi de la fiabilité des serveur , je sais ) et je sais d'experience que c'est en prenant des risque qu'on obtient se qu'on veut .Sur guild war 2 le pvp sandbox me parraissait triste ,je ne sait pas comment l'expliquer mais on se sentais exlu et au bout d'un moment on s'ennuyais ferme a toujour aller reprendre un point à l'autre bout de la carte sans voir personne.
L'avantage des zones ouvertes pvp/pve c'est que le passage de l'un a l'autre se fait en toute transparence ,cela permet de faire des evenements pve en pvp et des batailles imprevuent en pve sans que le joueur se sente isolé d'un de ses modes de jeu.Pour moi c'est sa qui m'a plus sur war.
Originally posted by Iselin Let's say that France, Germany and England got involved in a 3-sided war over control of Belgium and the Netherlands. Would it be more likely or less likely for someone from England to go on a bicycle trip through France and Germany while the war was going on? Wouldn't it be likely that as soon as hostilities broke out, the citizens of each respective country would high tail it home on the first flight and not mix all that much?
Where is this war be taking place? I definitely would NOT go bike riding in a war zone. That is just crazy talk!
I would, however, not care about the war and gladly see the sights and people of Germany, France, and England and take a bike ride through their beautiful countries. I bet it would be possible, too, since the people with weapons are actually at the battlefield.
TES:O, I give you Cyrodiil. Go. Play. Have your fake "battles" (where nobody dies). That is a battlefield. All the other provinces? Please...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I think its perfect that there is no pvp in pve areas.
Because when I feel like pvp, I'll go there at my leisure, or because a battle is on.
.
But when I don't, cause maybe I feel like doing something slow and relaxing, I hate getting hounded by people who can't accept that I don't want to pvp at that moment. Not to mention that you are at a huge disadvantage wearing pve gear for pve content, and someone in pvp gear comes to fight you. That alone is ridiculous game design...
.
So, I find their decision perfect. If you look at the (still) biggest mmo wow, you'll see that the vast majority plays on regular servers, not open world pvp servers. That doesn't mean they don't pvp, but they get to choose when they want to pvp and when they don't.
.
Forcing pvp everywhere just turns you into a niche product like Darkfall. Not to mention that Elder Scrolls' fan base come from pure pve environment...
.
If someone wants to do nothing but pvp, nobody forces them to go pve either.
Pvp everywhere is great in a game designed for pvp everywhere like eve, where you have ecconomy driving the pvp.
Pvp everywhere as a flick a switch rather than make actual outdoor pvp content in the style of wow and its clones is shite.
Daoc (and even gw2, though that's too gamey for my liking) have way more pvp CONTENT, and a fairer focus on pvpers than all these wow style raid grinders.
Comments
Going to the other areas to PvE after level 50 is a kludge that I suspect was motivated more by development expediency than any other consideration.
When you develop 3 separate 1-50 leveling areas and keep them apart, you are developing content that will only be seen by 1/3 of the players. Instead of developing many more end game zones, it's much more economical to give limited access to that content at max level. It's not a coincidence that this announcement came at approximately the same time they said that the unique post-50 PVE zones would not be in the game at release. They're coming later. That is what that was all about.
They also said that they would develop some in-game stories about why you were now going over there to make it consistent. But we have heard nothing more about that,
Being phased there with just other players from your own faction just accentuates the artificial nature of this kludge.
The game is designed so that you wouldn't be mixing in PvE with the other 2 factions. This is exactly the way it was done with Dark Age of Camelot in their core servers at least for the first few years. But DAOC being server based, also allowed them to provide a "go anywhere" PVP server, Mordred, where, as Bill correctly guessed, PVP was scattered to the winds and not focused in the RvR zones. Eventually they also created co-op servers with no PvP anywhere...but that was long after the shark had been jumped. I'm guessing the desire was to go back to the original DAoC core design.
I won't try to get into their reasons for doing this since people love to argue about whether this separation creates more "realm pride" or if realm pride even exists.
But even without getting into the whole realm pride debate, I have been mystified ever since people started to discuss this game why anyone would think that, given that the setting for this MMO is a war between 3 factions, going to the other faction's PvE area is more immersive. Are we so conditioned by WOW that we think doing it in a more realistic way is less immersive?
Let's say that France, Germany and England got involved in a 3-sided war over control of Belgium and the Netherlands. Would it be more likely or less likely for someone from England to go on a bicycle trip through France and Germany while the war was going on? Wouldn't it be likely that as soon as hostilities broke out, the citizens of each respective country would high tail it home on the first flight and not mix all that much?
So yeah, it's a kludge that attempts to have its cake and eat it too: the realism of no mixing in PvE is maintained but you can still have your bicycle trip... except you have to do it in the twilight zone. But hey, no content goes to waste this way,
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
100% in agreement, Bill. Their implementation of PvP is thwarting the MMO part of the game in so many ways. Their AvAvA system is the sole reason why so many player interactions are not present.
I play MMOs to be with other players. In TES:O's version, there will be (roughly) 2/3 of the player population I can NOT interact with. well... unless I want to fight them
Is combat so important these days?
And the NPCs of other factions sprinkled throughout Tamriel is truly immersion breaking. *WE* (the players) can not do this because of "faction pride", aka: faction hate. Yet here are NPCs of the SAME hated races/factions living quite comfortably within enemy territory? That is too much of a stretch for my vivid and healthy imagination.
All because of AvAvA...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Because I suspect for most of these people wow was their first mmo and their impressions of daoc are based upon gw2s extremely gamey and artificial homage to it.
"I’m very excited about the prospect of key members of the Dark Age of Camelot team designing Elder Scrolls Online Cyrodiil “Alliance vs. Alliance” warfare."
The exact same thing was said about Warhammer Online and how did that game's RvR turned out?
My gaming blog
This is the first time you have heard this?
Have you been on a 6 month expedition up the amazon?
/fartnoise /thumbsdown
It might not be very likely that people would go on a bicycle trip into enemy territory, but when 3 nations go to war over a piece of territory, those countries tend to poked and prodded and invaded by whoever has the strongest military. Once a war like that actually starts, anything can happen including any one of the three countries getting completely conquered by any one of the other two.
The main fault, as I see it, of this three realm segregated system is that it's overly gamey. Trying to make it sound MORE realistic than other iterations of a war simulations seems so ridiculous to me. It' better to argue that it is superior as a game system than actually trying to compare it to a real war in my opinion.
Haha I guess so
What interests me the most about Cyrodiil is how much it will resemble open world PvP.
People seem to think of Cyrodiil as only a PvP zone, but we know for a fact that there will be many public dungeons, PvE quests and gathering resources unique to this zone.
Cyrodiil seem to have a nice mix of activities to do, and given its sheer size, will hopefully give a lot of random encounters and replayability, maybe not far away from open world PvP as seen in other games.
No that is what wow style mmos do.
Let's pretend where a shooter with lobby game pvp.
And perhaps chuck a few servers in their where we just flick a pvp on switch and expect great pvp to just magically happen.
But again I suspect your options are formed based on gw2, where it is pretty much 2 separate games.
ESO is just going to flip a switch and expect great PvP to just magically happen. What is the difference between having 3 factions that never see each other EVER unless in PvP and having 3 factions that never see each other EVER unless in PvP? There is no difference. Everyone uses the same classes and skills with perhaps some weak racial differences. Why does leveling through a different quest line in PvE make any difference? They are both equally gamey and ridiculous.
Basically you can take what GW2 did and apply it nearly perfectly to what ESO is doing. The only difference is that in ESO your race is determined by what faction you pick. At least in GW2's version of RvR you aren't forced into race selection based on factors like what faction your friends/guild play on. It just looks like ESO is even more artificially restricted than GW2 if anything.
There Is Always Hope!
I never said gw2 was a flick a switch game. I said wow was.
"Brian Wheeler was one of the ingredients that made the magic happen in DAOC. He was also part of the WAR team, but we can’t put that game’s failings on one man’s shoulders,"
Right...so, we cant put it on his shoulders for Warhammers failings, but he sure is responsible for DaoC magic!
Rose colored glasses, that is what you are wearing to look at TESO.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
They also don't have
Group dungeons
Raids
Auction houses
Chat channels
Guilds
Etc..
So they should omit them too.
I was speaking to the PvE nature of the previous titles, obviously not the offline/online nature. Thanks for trolling though
Sorry, I misunderstood you.
Fair enough. But that's an argument for the war (PvP) to be everywhere. And I agree, that would be more realistic..
But they're not developing it that way. In their minds having "safe" PvE areas and focused world PvP in just a portion of the world are more important. It's not as realistic that way... sort of like they have a gentleman's agreement to only fight in Cyrodiil and not invade each other. Very Victorian of them.
But once they made that design decision which admittedly, defies logic about how nations at war behave, they should at least try to keep that shaky premise consistent. They're already on the edge of not providing a believable environment. Allowing PvE to go everywhere and group with anyone as many have wanted, would push it over the edge into the realm of utter nonsense.
Allowing PvE in the other alliance areas with all the native player characters conveniently removed is, IMHO, just as bad...unless they come up with an interesting reason why you can go there and not see them. Still waiting on that. And hopefully, the reason won't involve anything as cheesy as time travel -- 2nd only to amnesia as the top plot cheat by hack writers.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Will not support of it because of this.
I'm so sick of dedicated crybaby pvp areas.
NO WORLD PVP = NOT PLAYING
Looks like a medieval SWTOR, anyways.
I need to speak french to answer topic ,then translate it.
Bonjour ,je pense que on devrait s'inspirer du systeme de pvp que warhammer online avait mis en place.
A savoir faire des zones pve ouverte a tous avec impossibilité d'attaquer le camp adverse ,par contre si un joueur tente d'agresser un autre joueur il devient marqué pvp sans pouvoir attaquer qui que se soit tant que personne ne l'attaque.Du coup le joueur agressif se met sur la defensive et se calme car n'importe qui peut maintenant l'agresser par surprise.Bref les combat sont permis mais seulement si voulut par les opposants.
Pour aller en pvp ,les zones seraient indiquées clairement à l'interieur des zone pve et on pourrait les contourner ,Dés que le joueur rentre dans une zone pvp il est marqué pvp d'office au bout de quelque seconndes.Pareillement si il sort de la zone pvp hors combat il perd sa marque pvp et redevient joueur pve.
Les regles étaient ,tout joueur trop puissant pour une zone pvp (au bout de quelque seconde) ou essayant de cibler un joueur moins puissant (instantanément) etait changé en poulet avec 1 point de vie ,la récompense du lache! Les joueurs pve qui essayent d'aider des joueurs en pvp ou marqués pvp sont instanement marqués pvp.
Voila j'ai beaucoup aimé warhammer qui est un grand jeu pour le pvp ,l'animation des mouvements des personnages,l'equilibrage des classes et son monde ouvert pve ,pvp. Je pense que les messieurs de chez war on beaucoup de choses à donner pour la réussite de eso.
Enfermer eso dans des bacs a sable asseptisés pve/pvp va limité le jeu et je pense que c'est la solution de la facilité (et aussi de la fiabilité des serveur , je sais ) et je sais d'experience que c'est en prenant des risque qu'on obtient se qu'on veut .Sur guild war 2 le pvp sandbox me parraissait triste ,je ne sait pas comment l'expliquer mais on se sentais exlu et au bout d'un moment on s'ennuyais ferme a toujour aller reprendre un point à l'autre bout de la carte sans voir personne.
L'avantage des zones ouvertes pvp/pve c'est que le passage de l'un a l'autre se fait en toute transparence ,cela permet de faire des evenements pve en pvp et des batailles imprevuent en pve sans que le joueur se sente isolé d'un de ses modes de jeu.Pour moi c'est sa qui m'a plus sur war.
I would, however, not care about the war and gladly see the sights and people of Germany, France, and England and take a bike ride through their beautiful countries. I bet it would be possible, too, since the people with weapons are actually at the battlefield.
TES:O, I give you Cyrodiil. Go. Play. Have your fake "battles" (where nobody dies). That is a battlefield. All the other provinces? Please...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I think its perfect that there is no pvp in pve areas.
Because when I feel like pvp, I'll go there at my leisure, or because a battle is on.
.
But when I don't, cause maybe I feel like doing something slow and relaxing, I hate getting hounded by people who can't accept that I don't want to pvp at that moment. Not to mention that you are at a huge disadvantage wearing pve gear for pve content, and someone in pvp gear comes to fight you. That alone is ridiculous game design...
.
So, I find their decision perfect. If you look at the (still) biggest mmo wow, you'll see that the vast majority plays on regular servers, not open world pvp servers. That doesn't mean they don't pvp, but they get to choose when they want to pvp and when they don't.
.
Forcing pvp everywhere just turns you into a niche product like Darkfall. Not to mention that Elder Scrolls' fan base come from pure pve environment...
Pvp everywhere as a flick a switch rather than make actual outdoor pvp content in the style of wow and its clones is shite.
Daoc (and even gw2, though that's too gamey for my liking) have way more pvp CONTENT, and a fairer focus on pvpers than all these wow style raid grinders.