I think its perfect that there is no pvp in pve areas.
Because when I feel like pvp, I'll go there at my leisure, or because a battle is on.
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But when I don't, cause maybe I feel like doing something slow and relaxing, I hate getting hounded by people who can't accept that I don't want to pvp at that moment. Not to mention that you are at a huge disadvantage wearing pve gear for pve content, and someone in pvp gear comes to fight you. That alone is ridiculous game design...
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So, I find their decision perfect. If you look at the (still) biggest mmo wow, you'll see that the vast majority plays on regular servers, not open world pvp servers. That doesn't mean they don't pvp, but they get to choose when they want to pvp and when they don't.
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Forcing pvp everywhere just turns you into a niche product like Darkfall. Not to mention that Elder Scrolls' fan base come from pure pve environment...
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If someone wants to do nothing but pvp, nobody forces them to go pve either.
See my post page 5 ,u can easily do pve with open pvp ,only need strong rules to manage it. And open world looks pretty more dynamic like that. Eso is create with pvp in mind u will not have a skyrim game.
You're part of an exceedingly noisy minority. Games are designed for everybody to have fun. Most people enjoy pvp in battles that have a purpose, but not getting ganked while they quest.
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If you're so ravenous, go play Darkfall. Full loot pvp. And Darkfall could really use you, cause there's comparably few people who want nothing but pvp everywhere.
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But my guess is, that you'd like a game full of questing carebears you can gank morning to night, with little to no skill required.
"At least we know ESO will have three factions as opposed to the inherently broken two."
This is a nonsense statement. Two factions is no better and no worse than three, "inherently".
If you had three factions, named "The Dark Lords Of Destruction", "The Whiny Whimps" and "The Care Bear Coalition", do you think this would give you a balanced setup?
If you had a two faction setup, one with Star Trek adherents and one with Star Wars fanatics, would that be "inherently" unbalanced? And have you noticed how sports team competitions are always 1v1, not 1v1v1?
If you want power (which usually boils down to population) balance you have to enforce it. This can be done by forcibly moving people, or allowing only so many people to compete, or giving meaningful bonuses to the weaker faction(s). There is a reason why sports teams compete with identical sized teams. A team with a $200mil roster fields the same number of players as the after-work players from your local park.
I don't think this is an ideal solution, and it becomes more complicated if you add a time axis (as in RvR going on 24/7 - what happens when you are at work or sleeping?).
Guild Wars 2's WvW suffers from this, though their tiered setup helps smooth this out a little. I haven't heard anything yet that makes me think TESO has a better solution.
Pick your personal favorite faction and imagine 90% of players pile into it. Would AvA be fun? Now imagine your favorite faction only draws 5% of all players. How long would you enjoy getting stomped all day every day year in year out? And stomped doesn't mean, hey, we lost but it was close, gg, it means 10v1 every time.
TESO AvA looks like it could be at least as good as GW2's WvW. To be significantly better they need to find a solution to the power imbalance.
Why should there be different gear for PVP and PVE? You're wielding an axe... it should decapitate your enemy regardless. It's the whole two gear system that is messed up. You should all ride into the battlefield with the same gear... that way the only thing separating the men from the boys is skill... or shear overwhelming numbers. This whole I got better gear than you crap is what kills PVP.
IF YOU ARE ALL THAT, YOU'D STILL OUTPLAY THEM NAKED.
Clearly gear is the crutch that makes you play well... not your skill. You should all be demanding normalization in regards to gear... then it truly is amano-amano.
LOL, it's like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom who takes on a sword wielder with a pistol... no contest... but that's what you guys call PVP... imbalanced fights where one ALWAYS will be guaranteed the upper hand.
Originally posted by IV_Talek So no other pvp options instead of crappy zerg vs zerg vs zerg? I just lost my interest... Wildstar now are our only hope for good MMO with MMO content, not single/co-op rpg published as MMO.
Yes you're so right, another wow clone rip-off is what we need... *smh, just go back and play wow... tired of these trolls who love these wow spin offs... because in a weeks time they'll while and say it's not wow and be right back in wow..
Yeah okay, wait, what? A wow clone rip-off, that makes sense. You have clearly NO idea what Wildstar is or how their game works.
I'm excited to try out both Elder Scrolls and Wildstar but wayyy more exited for Wildstar, but maybe that's because Carbine is a bit more open about what they want from their game where as Zenimax reminds me a bit of Bioware showing off SWTOR and that's not a good thing Still, I hope TESO will be good!!
Cyrodiil is basically an open world PVP server on its own. At level 10 you can go to Cyrodiil and play there. It is massive, about the same size as each alliances home world. You an do EVERYTHING in Cyrodiil. Yes the main focus is seiging and the zerg will be there but there is so many more place to go. You can go away from the hot spots and do PVE, you can do quests, you can go into dungeons (but watch your back for enemies coming in). The map is divided up so each alliance has homelands. This also gives the invading feel that DAOC had and GW2 lacked because of its poor map design.
Cyrodiil is the PVP set up alot of us have been asking for since DAOC. A place that has the big keep seiges, roaming group fights, map bottleneck locations for stealtehrs to wait and picl people off, and PVE that has the watch your back feel with the risk of PVP happening at all times.
3 factions will always be the better choice and contrary to anyone' opinion, just because PvP is segregated off into its own zone doesn't make i any less world PvP.
Wish people would understand there is Instanced PvP, which what most people think of is when they say "GW2, DAoC or TESO doesn't have world PvP". Then there is Zoned PvP then there is open world PvP.
Correction NO faction will always be the better choice.
Originally posted by Yamota "Im very excited about the prospect of key members of the Dark Age of Camelot team designing Elder Scrolls Online Cyrodiil Alliance vs. Alliance warfare." The exact same thing was said about Warhammer Online and how did that game's RvR turned out?
Don't blame the devs for that, EA rushed them, and they had to significantly alter their original concept ideas, which included multiple capitals to be sieged and even further back, 3 faction combat.
Originally posted by Pirhana7Cyrodiil is basically an open world PVP server on its own. At level 10 you can go to Cyrodiil and play there. It is massive, about the same size as each alliances home world. You an do EVERYTHING in Cyrodiil. Yes the main focus is seiging and the zerg will be there but there is so many more place to go. You can go away from the hot spots and do PVE, you can do quests, you can go into dungeons (but watch your back for enemies coming in). The map is divided up so each alliance has homelands. This also gives the invading feel that DAOC had and GW2 lacked because of its poor map design.Cyrodiil is the PVP set up alot of us have been asking for since DAOC. A place that has the big keep seiges, roaming group fights, map bottleneck locations for stealtehrs to wait and picl people off, and PVE that has the watch your back feel with the risk of PVP happening at all times.
This exactly and explained so very well. Its boggling why people are so frustrated with it, and I assume its because they only read blog posts and brief articles instead of looking into the full extent of the idea.
sadly this game's pvp will fail... look at the pools in every forum you can find about ESO! most people are going to choose ebonheart pact! wonder how they will manage overpopulation
It's an odd article for sure. You ask questions, but answer them yourself and then end it asking the question again that you already answered yourself.
Why no world pvp outside of Cyrodiil? Because they want to flow action into Cyrodiil. If you split the population, you destroy the pvp game in Cyrodiil.
Why cant we see the other factions? Because you could conspire and direct the flow of RvR in Cyrodiil.
Why not just turn off all communication then? Because that's equally immersion breaking, and it leaves the question of "What's the point?". Splitting hairs I think.
You mention how excited you are that the DAoC allstars are building this game, then you question the mechanics of DAoC against it... It's... odd.
GW2's problem was the map set up. each map was small and most the objectives had the feel that they were just up for grabs for anyone. the center was water so the map design was like a big circle you ran around. you would bounce around from corner to corner TRADING objectives, there was no invading feel or pushing in.
Now look at Cyrodiil, just like the DOAC map. It is massive, think of it as a pie divided into 3 large slices. each belongs to an alliance as their lands. Now the way the mechanic works is one side will start to push in on another side, taking their keeps and towers and invading them (kinda like a wave coming in) Now this is where the system works different than GW2. the further the attacking realm pushes in on the defending realm the harder it is for the attackers to hold ad keep going because it takes longer for respawns and rienforcement to travel to the battle line. Apposed to the defending side whos respawn and rienforcements are right there at their port in and right back in the fight to push back. Now you factor in the 3rd faction breaking keep ports and attacking the otehrside and its a self balancing system. Also when 1 side becomes the stronger side they will control what the other 2 sides wants, now they have to defend on 2 fronts
There will be campaigns, you can think of these as CYrodiil servers that put you with your guild. you will always see the same allies and enemies when you go there but when its created the 3 alliances populations will be closely balanced
GW2's problem was the map set up. each map was small and most the objectives had the feel that they were just up for grabs for anyone. the center was water so the map design was like a big circle you ran around. you would bounce around from corner to corner TRADING objectives, there was no invading feel or pushing in.
Now look at Cyrodiil, just like the DOAC map. It is massive, think of it as a pie divided into 3 large slices. each belongs to an alliance as their lands. Now the way the mechanic works is one side will start to push in on another side, taking their keeps and towers and invading them (kinda like a wave coming in) Now this is where the system works different than GW2. the further the attacking realm pushes in on the defending realm the harder it is for the attackers to hold ad keep going because it takes longer for respawns and rienforcement to travel to the battle line. Apposed to the defending side whos respawn and rienforcements are right there at their port in and right back in the fight to push back. Now you factor in the 3rd faction breaking keep ports and attacking the otehrside and its a self balancing system. Also when 1 side becomes the stronger side they will control what the other 2 sides wants, now they have to defend on 2 fronts
It may seem like a great idea to ignore world PvP, but for many people it's one of their favorite end game activities. There is a reason why World of Warcraft made half their Servers PvP, and the other half PvE Servers; It's because some people love it, and others hate it.
World PvP to me is a element of the game that makes me want to stay longer because:
1. It's a fun end game activity
2. Makes me run through content slower
3. It makes me feel like their is value for getting PvP gear because I can use it in world PvP instead of having it limited.
4. Every ones happy; PvPers can PvP, and PvEers can prevent PvP.
5. It makes me feel Naughty (Pleasurable) when killing other players
6. Bots have zero emotion while you can laugh at the player you killed raging.
7. Just the Atmosphere of feeling endangered when out in the world from the possibility of being ganked.
I can go on and on, but no World PvP will make the game boring after a few months while World PvP gives me something to do when it's not a raiding night or nothing else is going on; if you want the best MMORPG you need non-instanced PvP to work out or else this game will not last very long like all the other games that died; it gives players a goal to reach for.
You're part of an exceedingly noisy minority. Games are designed for everybody to have fun. Most people enjoy pvp in battles that have a purpose, but not getting ganked while they quest.
. Did I say I want a World full of ganking? No. I want a game to actually sit down and design a meaningful World PvP System... with proper sanctions that will prevent a high leveler from decimating a lowbie or from a group of players smashing the same lowbie over and over.
If you're so ravenous, go play Darkfall. Full loot pvp. And Darkfall could really use you, cause there's comparably few people who want nothing but pvp everywhere.
. Did I say I wanted to play a hardcore full loot PvP game? No. I want content, I want exploration, and I want a more realistic PvP System that fits in with the game. I'm sorry, but Huttball or Capture the Flag kills immersion as far as I'm concerned.
But my guess is, that you'd like a game full of questing carebears you can gank morning to night, with little to no skill required.
No. I want a game that doesn't offer the same failed PvP system... just like WAR, AoC, SWTOR, and all the other WoW BG clones.
world PvP is not such a bad thing. but like as you said. the main homelands are like a safe zone. but what about. if you have a dueling system. because those parts are the safe zones and are not the actual PvP areas. if two players meet and they hate each others. the other can request a dual. but the other player can decline if he doesnt want to. and maybe you can have a group battle of a limit of 5 or something like that. but within the safe zone. you can only request a dual. you cant just attack anyone.
Grixx The lead devs on TESO are Matt frior who worked on daoc and Paul sage who worked on uo. Neither of them worked on war. Frior left mythic to work for bethseda before the ea buyout and before war started development.
Also daoc wasn't a failure it was a success
Also daoc features NO INSTANCES AT ALL
So stop making up stuff about games you never played.
There Is no arena or battlegrounds or match pvp of any kind in teso. It has a large persistent pvp area of the world and that's it, the devs are deliberately leaving out minigames and even pseudo minigames like lwg.
Originally posted by ShakyMo Grixx The lead devs on TESO are Matt frior who worked on daoc and Paul sage who worked on uo. Neither of them worked on war. Frior left mythic to work for bethseda before the ea buyout and before war started development.
Also daoc wasn't a failure it was a success
Also daoc features NO INSTANCES AT ALL
So stop making up stuff about games you never played.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Wheeler was a lead dev on Warhammer and that his job was making the PvP NOT suck. A job at which he failed horribly at.
"Me personally, I'm in charge of making RvR and open field more enjoyable. We're looking at adding more depth to our keeps and battlefield objectives systems. We just announced our Tomb Kings expansion, which is sort of like a free expansion. It's gonna be a huge dungeon that gonna be sort of reminiscent of Darkness Falls if you ever played [Dark Age of] Camelot"
Also, "Lead Devs" seems to be a little disingenuous. Matt Firor is in charge of Zenimax Online en tote and Paul Sage's job is entirely damage control/ PR. Another job at which they are failing miserably.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
I think the super server is actually a solution to many problems MMOs have at launch and after. If want to quest and have to be looking over my shoulder for other players then I should have that option.
Also. I will be able to see dunmer or nords in their realm if im questing there as say a breton. Hopefully they wont see me as an enemy but just a traveler like in most Elder scrolls Games. And nords will try and attack me. NPCs (smarter then your average NPC. there fore more....pvp like...viceral....gritty.)
Also....my favorite point im going to make. Whos says only enemy faction players get to attack me? Why not my fellow orc? Does this not seem fine? if i select world pvp, why cant my own faction attack me? the old problems of pve players complaining about getting ganked, or your girlfriend wanting to play with you but not liking pvp is over. The super server fixes all these social problems.
ALSO. this wont be a Warhammer mess. Warhammr failed because they buit so many servers because of the pre WOTLK post BC players going over and saying how they wanted it, then after all the changes were made for them....they left for WOTLK. Emptying out servers and costing Mythic allot of money. SO this super server....wont have shard dumps iwht population decrease. People wont leave because it feels empty. EVEN if it did....ITs an Elder Scrolls game. It can be single player with some real extreme pvp or awesome kill the big monster moments with your buddy.
This game is brilliant. And the super server is truly capable of getting everyone an individual experience. This game might just be able to ( to some degree) serve everyone.
Also i think the super server might also act as a cloud system, allowing for smoother gamplay in cyrodil in big zergs. (just a thought. and a extreme hope lol)
Just wanted to touch on a couple subjects other people already brought up. Obviously I haven't played the game yet or anything but some of these comments sound like they are from people who have never played any of the Elderscrolls games and only played WOW or it's close cousins. And since none of us know enough about the game yet to give any definitive answers, a lot of what we are posting here is just speculation.
"No open world PVP?! This sucks. I aint ganna play!" - For anyone who's played Oblivion you know that Cyrodil is a huge, expansive, "open world" land of it's own. This is NOT some small pvp zone/instance that you might find in any other MMO. I think what we are kinda getting from TESO is 2 games in one. A huge "open world" pvp area and a huge "open world" pve area/s. I'm really not sure what the big deal about the so called "open world" PVP not being like current MMOs anyway. I played WOW for about 6 years and most "good" pvp took place in INSTANCED battle grounds or a DESIGNATED pvp areas anyway. And that super awesome, exciting "open world" pvp usually consisted of some guy getting on the trade channel saying "I'll pay anyone 50 gold to fight me outside the city gates cause I know I can kick anyone's #ss cause I got the best pvp gear" or a level 80 toon swoops down from his epic mount and one hit kills the level 20 that was flagged for pvp and then instantly flies off again. Yeah...really immersive awesome pvp there aint it? So at least what it sounds like TESO is trying to do is make a huge, persistent, "partly open world" pvp aspect to the game that to me sounds much better than most current MMO "open world" pvp anyway.
"Not seeing enemy players in their PVE territory is immersion breaking." - Personally not a big deal for me. Everyone seems to think that they will be dancing around merrily in enemy territory since there won't be any enemy "players" there. But I'm sure there will still be enemy alliance npc mobs all around trying to attack you to keep the immersion. I look at it more like this: you are a rogue agent/lone scout (solo) or a special forces team (group/guild) going around the main battle (cyrodil) into enemy territory to scout out the area, look for resources, items, etc to help out your own alliance. It would not be a "bicycle trip" through the enemy countryside. Your toon's life will still be in danger.
That's my 2 cents anyway. Don't knock a game until you try it. I for one am very excited about this game based on the info I've heard so far.
I was a bit late when it came to MMOs and didn't hear about DAoC until it was dying out.
But what got me into PvP was back in the days of Vanilla WoW when Tarren Mill and Southshore became this all day event of people killing each other and it going back and forth.
Now this didn't get this bad until WoW had talked of adding a PvP system. The system wasn't in place yet but people were still hyped and started fighting everywhere. It wasn't small world skirmishes here and there, it got huge. I remember my girlfriend had a 30 second rendering delay just flying into Southshore from all the people that showed up to fight. I think I did that for months only having the measure of how many kills I got. That was it. I was a happy camper.
When Aion launched in China, I played there. And one thing I noticed different from the US. Chinese are extremely competitive and not whiners. I never had so much fun playing a game like I did playing in China beta until US launch. Then when it launched, the game was ruined. 2.1 version had buffed up the city guards where you couldn't raid them, they blocked PvPing over the areas by adding buffs to keep people from attacking, etc. The game was turned into a PvE game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some good PvE, but this was not the core design of the game. And I think many noticed that. The ONLY place you could PvP was the Abyss area and that made it hard for PvE'rs to even do have fun cause the Abyss was overloaded with enemy. It was so much better when it was just everywhere. Bottle necking the PvP actually ruined the fun and the intensity of open world pvp.
I think also when you channel pvp to a specific area, what you get is zerg unless that area is large enough to spread the server entirety out enough as to not it be PvP attack after PvP attack. Hard to explain this one. This way, the only time zerg happens is when one is manually created by the faction themselves.
I haven't seen a game since to give us a fun large environment that doesn't feel scripted like GW2.
I think a game like GW2 would have been better if they didn't try to appease the PvE'rs. Open world pvp with giant events actually (Guild against Guild) would have been awesome. And if you wanna just PvE. Then simply don't flag up and PvE. But any PvEr would easily have the option to join in the fun if they wanted by seeing the action going on. Why wouldn't they want it like this? I have no idea. There are so many games catered to the casual and the PvEr that I think if GW2 wouldn't have tried to steal players from those games, they would have had a bigger following. If I want to play a casual / easy game, I have WoW which has it down. They make great games but I wanted a more complex, detailed, and tougher game with some hard core PvP action. (Not as hard as Darkfall). I need a happy medium. Thing is, seems people like me have no game to really settle with for this very reason. Marketing depts suck because they try to get the masses and the information seems to be based on games already out. But games like WoW, you may get a few people but you aren't going to steal the majority so get over it. Just make a great game for the rest of us and then the rest will flock. If you make it too easy to beat, people get bored and leave.
Well, to sum up what I think works is:
Open world (everywhere)
No Ladder System (just kill counts, etc. but it doesn't rank you) (you can still get rewards though)(just look at FPS games, RPG PvP is sort of like a 3rd person shooter in a sense only with more moves than just aiming and shooting.)
PvP and PvE character switchable, not by zone. (well, can make starter zones free of PvP)
Multiple factions. Whether guild or multiple in-game ones.
Strong cities but no one shot mechanics (npc or player char)
Balance is done by grouping not by solo playing (you try to balance a class to another, you get a mess. Finding player balance in a team is better. After all this is an MMO (MULTIPLAYER!!!) so if you wanna solo, that's fine, just stop whining if you can't do something alone though.)
Good cross class benefits. (This is where Aion ruled. You could be one shot by someone in 1v1 but in a 5v5, it could easily become a very balanced match because the classes melded so well together. How it was meant to be played.)
Its really simple why there needs to be a PvP restricted area; it's a game. If there wasn't a centralized area to fight you would need to have instanced battlegrounds like WoW which makes me vomit. The other alternative is to allow players to conquer all of Tamriel like a "real" war. But, you can see how this is impossible because there will inevitably be a loser in this contest, and what of the players in the losing factions? Before long there will be no war and PvP will be non existent.
Although I had fond memories of leveling in contested areas in WoW where I could be killed at any time, I understand the need for this separation. This is a game with potentially millions of players and the company wants to accommodate as many players as possible and I see this as a good compromise. In terms of lore as to why we cannot cross into enemy territories its as simple as placing artificial battle fields at the contested borders where NPCs are endlessly duking it out, or perhaps border patrol stations.
There is one aspect that they are not talking about, that I really do hope they implement; an Arena. I'm talking about having small group battles like 1 - 5 combatants with the sole purpose of killing each other. This is a good place where players can test their skills against real people and practice before heading into the war. I even fleshed out a way ALL 3 factions can fight each other. The capital cities all have arenas in them, once a player reaches a certain ranking they receive a message from Boethia to join in an epic tournament in his realm of Oblivion, so the best players in ALL of the factions can fight there in the tournament and get great exclusive gear. WHY CAN'T THEY IMPLEMENT THIS!
Its really simple why there needs to be a PvP restricted area; it's a game. If there wasn't a centralized area to fight you would need to have instanced battlegrounds like WoW which makes me vomit. The other alternative is to allow players to conquer all of Tamriel like a "real" war. But, you can see how this is impossible because there will inevitably be a loser in this contest, and what of the players in the losing factions? Before long there will be no war and PvP will be non existent.
Although I had fond memories of leveling in contested areas in WoW where I could be killed at any time, I understand the need for this separation. This is a game with potentially millions of players and the company wants to accommodate as many players as possible and I see this as a good compromise. In terms of lore as to why we cannot cross into enemy territories its as simple as placing artificial battle fields at the contested borders where NPCs are endlessly duking it out, or perhaps border patrol stations.
There is one aspect that they are not talking about, that I really do hope they implement; an Arena. I'm talking about having small group battles like 1 - 5 combatants with the sole purpose of killing each other. This is a good place where players can test their skills against real people and practice before heading into the war. I even fleshed out a way ALL 3 factions can fight each other. The capital cities all have arenas in them, once a player reaches a certain ranking they receive a message from Boethia to join in an epic tournament in his realm of Oblivion, so the best players in ALL of the factions can fight there in the tournament and get great exclusive gear. WHY CAN'T THEY IMPLEMENT THIS!
Comments
See my post page 5 ,u can easily do pve with open pvp ,only need strong rules to manage it. And open world looks pretty more dynamic like that. Eso is create with pvp in mind u will not have a skyrim game.
You're part of an exceedingly noisy minority. Games are designed for everybody to have fun. Most people enjoy pvp in battles that have a purpose, but not getting ganked while they quest.
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If you're so ravenous, go play Darkfall. Full loot pvp. And Darkfall could really use you, cause there's comparably few people who want nothing but pvp everywhere.
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But my guess is, that you'd like a game full of questing carebears you can gank morning to night, with little to no skill required.
"At least we know ESO will have three factions as opposed to the inherently broken two."
This is a nonsense statement. Two factions is no better and no worse than three, "inherently".
If you had three factions, named "The Dark Lords Of Destruction", "The Whiny Whimps" and "The Care Bear Coalition", do you think this would give you a balanced setup?
If you had a two faction setup, one with Star Trek adherents and one with Star Wars fanatics, would that be "inherently" unbalanced? And have you noticed how sports team competitions are always 1v1, not 1v1v1?
If you want power (which usually boils down to population) balance you have to enforce it. This can be done by forcibly moving people, or allowing only so many people to compete, or giving meaningful bonuses to the weaker faction(s). There is a reason why sports teams compete with identical sized teams. A team with a $200mil roster fields the same number of players as the after-work players from your local park.
I don't think this is an ideal solution, and it becomes more complicated if you add a time axis (as in RvR going on 24/7 - what happens when you are at work or sleeping?).
Guild Wars 2's WvW suffers from this, though their tiered setup helps smooth this out a little. I haven't heard anything yet that makes me think TESO has a better solution.
Pick your personal favorite faction and imagine 90% of players pile into it. Would AvA be fun? Now imagine your favorite faction only draws 5% of all players. How long would you enjoy getting stomped all day every day year in year out? And stomped doesn't mean, hey, we lost but it was close, gg, it means 10v1 every time.
TESO AvA looks like it could be at least as good as GW2's WvW. To be significantly better they need to find a solution to the power imbalance.
Why should there be different gear for PVP and PVE? You're wielding an axe... it should decapitate your enemy regardless. It's the whole two gear system that is messed up. You should all ride into the battlefield with the same gear... that way the only thing separating the men from the boys is skill... or shear overwhelming numbers. This whole I got better gear than you crap is what kills PVP.
IF YOU ARE ALL THAT, YOU'D STILL OUTPLAY THEM NAKED.
Clearly gear is the crutch that makes you play well... not your skill. You should all be demanding normalization in regards to gear... then it truly is amano-amano.
LOL, it's like Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom who takes on a sword wielder with a pistol... no contest... but that's what you guys call PVP... imbalanced fights where one ALWAYS will be guaranteed the upper hand.
Yeah okay, wait, what? A wow clone rip-off, that makes sense. You have clearly NO idea what Wildstar is or how their game works.
I'm excited to try out both Elder Scrolls and Wildstar but wayyy more exited for Wildstar, but maybe that's because Carbine is a bit more open about what they want from their game where as Zenimax reminds me a bit of Bioware showing off SWTOR and that's not a good thing
Still, I hope TESO will be good!!
Cyrodiil is basically an open world PVP server on its own. At level 10 you can go to Cyrodiil and play there. It is massive, about the same size as each alliances home world. You an do EVERYTHING in Cyrodiil. Yes the main focus is seiging and the zerg will be there but there is so many more place to go. You can go away from the hot spots and do PVE, you can do quests, you can go into dungeons (but watch your back for enemies coming in). The map is divided up so each alliance has homelands. This also gives the invading feel that DAOC had and GW2 lacked because of its poor map design.
Cyrodiil is the PVP set up alot of us have been asking for since DAOC. A place that has the big keep seiges, roaming group fights, map bottleneck locations for stealtehrs to wait and picl people off, and PVE that has the watch your back feel with the risk of PVP happening at all times.
Originally posted by ZedTheRock
3 factions will always be the better choice and contrary to anyone' opinion, just because PvP is segregated off into its own zone doesn't make i any less world PvP.
Wish people would understand there is Instanced PvP, which what most people think of is when they say "GW2, DAoC or TESO doesn't have world PvP". Then there is Zoned PvP then there is open world PvP.
Correction NO faction will always be the better choice.
This exactly and explained so very well. Its boggling why people are so frustrated with it, and I assume its because they only read blog posts and brief articles instead of looking into the full extent of the idea.
It's an odd article for sure. You ask questions, but answer them yourself and then end it asking the question again that you already answered yourself.
Why no world pvp outside of Cyrodiil? Because they want to flow action into Cyrodiil. If you split the population, you destroy the pvp game in Cyrodiil.
Why cant we see the other factions? Because you could conspire and direct the flow of RvR in Cyrodiil.
Why not just turn off all communication then? Because that's equally immersion breaking, and it leaves the question of "What's the point?". Splitting hairs I think.
You mention how excited you are that the DAoC allstars are building this game, then you question the mechanics of DAoC against it... It's... odd.
The devs in question have learned absolutely nothing since their failures in both DAOC and Warhammer.
The biggest gripe in War about the endgame PvP was that it was instanced garbage. What is their answer for the same in TESO?
Make EVERYTHING instanced!
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
It may seem like a great idea to ignore world PvP, but for many people it's one of their favorite end game activities. There is a reason why World of Warcraft made half their Servers PvP, and the other half PvE Servers; It's because some people love it, and others hate it.
World PvP to me is a element of the game that makes me want to stay longer because:
1. It's a fun end game activity
2. Makes me run through content slower
3. It makes me feel like their is value for getting PvP gear because I can use it in world PvP instead of having it limited.
4. Every ones happy; PvPers can PvP, and PvEers can prevent PvP.
5. It makes me feel Naughty (Pleasurable) when killing other players
6. Bots have zero emotion while you can laugh at the player you killed raging.
7. Just the Atmosphere of feeling endangered when out in the world from the possibility of being ganked.
I can go on and on, but no World PvP will make the game boring after a few months while World PvP gives me something to do when it's not a raiding night or nothing else is going on; if you want the best MMORPG you need non-instanced PvP to work out or else this game will not last very long like all the other games that died; it gives players a goal to reach for.
answered....
The lead devs on TESO are Matt frior who worked on daoc and Paul sage who worked on uo. Neither of them worked on war. Frior left mythic to work for bethseda before the ea buyout and before war started development.
Also daoc wasn't a failure it was a success
Also daoc features NO INSTANCES AT ALL
So stop making up stuff about games you never played.
There Is no arena or battlegrounds or match pvp of any kind in teso. It has a large persistent pvp area of the world and that's it, the devs are deliberately leaving out minigames and even pseudo minigames like lwg.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Wheeler was a lead dev on Warhammer and that his job was making the PvP NOT suck. A job at which he failed horribly at.
http://www.anigamers.com/2009/02/interview-brian-wheeler-designer.html
Also, "Lead Devs" seems to be a little disingenuous. Matt Firor is in charge of Zenimax Online en tote and Paul Sage's job is entirely damage control/ PR. Another job at which they are failing miserably.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I think the super server is actually a solution to many problems MMOs have at launch and after. If want to quest and have to be looking over my shoulder for other players then I should have that option.
Also. I will be able to see dunmer or nords in their realm if im questing there as say a breton. Hopefully they wont see me as an enemy but just a traveler like in most Elder scrolls Games. And nords will try and attack me. NPCs (smarter then your average NPC. there fore more....pvp like...viceral....gritty.)
Also....my favorite point im going to make. Whos says only enemy faction players get to attack me? Why not my fellow orc? Does this not seem fine? if i select world pvp, why cant my own faction attack me? the old problems of pve players complaining about getting ganked, or your girlfriend wanting to play with you but not liking pvp is over. The super server fixes all these social problems.
ALSO. this wont be a Warhammer mess. Warhammr failed because they buit so many servers because of the pre WOTLK post BC players going over and saying how they wanted it, then after all the changes were made for them....they left for WOTLK. Emptying out servers and costing Mythic allot of money. SO this super server....wont have shard dumps iwht population decrease. People wont leave because it feels empty. EVEN if it did....ITs an Elder Scrolls game. It can be single player with some real extreme pvp or awesome kill the big monster moments with your buddy.
This game is brilliant. And the super server is truly capable of getting everyone an individual experience. This game might just be able to ( to some degree) serve everyone.
Also i think the super server might also act as a cloud system, allowing for smoother gamplay in cyrodil in big zergs. (just a thought. and a extreme hope lol)
Just wanted to touch on a couple subjects other people already brought up. Obviously I haven't played the game yet or anything but some of these comments sound like they are from people who have never played any of the Elderscrolls games and only played WOW or it's close cousins. And since none of us know enough about the game yet to give any definitive answers, a lot of what we are posting here is just speculation.
"No open world PVP?! This sucks. I aint ganna play!" - For anyone who's played Oblivion you know that Cyrodil is a huge, expansive, "open world" land of it's own. This is NOT some small pvp zone/instance that you might find in any other MMO. I think what we are kinda getting from TESO is 2 games in one. A huge "open world" pvp area and a huge "open world" pve area/s. I'm really not sure what the big deal about the so called "open world" PVP not being like current MMOs anyway. I played WOW for about 6 years and most "good" pvp took place in INSTANCED battle grounds or a DESIGNATED pvp areas anyway. And that super awesome, exciting "open world" pvp usually consisted of some guy getting on the trade channel saying "I'll pay anyone 50 gold to fight me outside the city gates cause I know I can kick anyone's #ss cause I got the best pvp gear" or a level 80 toon swoops down from his epic mount and one hit kills the level 20 that was flagged for pvp and then instantly flies off again. Yeah...really immersive awesome pvp there aint it? So at least what it sounds like TESO is trying to do is make a huge, persistent, "partly open world" pvp aspect to the game that to me sounds much better than most current MMO "open world" pvp anyway.
"Not seeing enemy players in their PVE territory is immersion breaking." - Personally not a big deal for me. Everyone seems to think that they will be dancing around merrily in enemy territory since there won't be any enemy "players" there. But I'm sure there will still be enemy alliance npc mobs all around trying to attack you to keep the immersion. I look at it more like this: you are a rogue agent/lone scout (solo) or a special forces team (group/guild) going around the main battle (cyrodil) into enemy territory to scout out the area, look for resources, items, etc to help out your own alliance. It would not be a "bicycle trip" through the enemy countryside. Your toon's life will still be in danger.
That's my 2 cents anyway. Don't knock a game until you try it. I for one am very excited about this game based on the info I've heard so far.
I was a bit late when it came to MMOs and didn't hear about DAoC until it was dying out.
But what got me into PvP was back in the days of Vanilla WoW when Tarren Mill and Southshore became this all day event of people killing each other and it going back and forth.
Now this didn't get this bad until WoW had talked of adding a PvP system. The system wasn't in place yet but people were still hyped and started fighting everywhere. It wasn't small world skirmishes here and there, it got huge. I remember my girlfriend had a 30 second rendering delay just flying into Southshore from all the people that showed up to fight. I think I did that for months only having the measure of how many kills I got. That was it. I was a happy camper.
When Aion launched in China, I played there. And one thing I noticed different from the US. Chinese are extremely competitive and not whiners. I never had so much fun playing a game like I did playing in China beta until US launch. Then when it launched, the game was ruined. 2.1 version had buffed up the city guards where you couldn't raid them, they blocked PvPing over the areas by adding buffs to keep people from attacking, etc. The game was turned into a PvE game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some good PvE, but this was not the core design of the game. And I think many noticed that. The ONLY place you could PvP was the Abyss area and that made it hard for PvE'rs to even do have fun cause the Abyss was overloaded with enemy. It was so much better when it was just everywhere. Bottle necking the PvP actually ruined the fun and the intensity of open world pvp.
I think also when you channel pvp to a specific area, what you get is zerg unless that area is large enough to spread the server entirety out enough as to not it be PvP attack after PvP attack. Hard to explain this one. This way, the only time zerg happens is when one is manually created by the faction themselves.
I haven't seen a game since to give us a fun large environment that doesn't feel scripted like GW2.
I think a game like GW2 would have been better if they didn't try to appease the PvE'rs. Open world pvp with giant events actually (Guild against Guild) would have been awesome. And if you wanna just PvE. Then simply don't flag up and PvE. But any PvEr would easily have the option to join in the fun if they wanted by seeing the action going on. Why wouldn't they want it like this? I have no idea. There are so many games catered to the casual and the PvEr that I think if GW2 wouldn't have tried to steal players from those games, they would have had a bigger following. If I want to play a casual / easy game, I have WoW which has it down. They make great games but I wanted a more complex, detailed, and tougher game with some hard core PvP action. (Not as hard as Darkfall). I need a happy medium. Thing is, seems people like me have no game to really settle with for this very reason. Marketing depts suck because they try to get the masses and the information seems to be based on games already out. But games like WoW, you may get a few people but you aren't going to steal the majority so get over it. Just make a great game for the rest of us and then the rest will flock. If you make it too easy to beat, people get bored and leave.
Well, to sum up what I think works is:
Open world (everywhere)
No Ladder System (just kill counts, etc. but it doesn't rank you) (you can still get rewards though)(just look at FPS games, RPG PvP is sort of like a 3rd person shooter in a sense only with more moves than just aiming and shooting.)
PvP and PvE character switchable, not by zone. (well, can make starter zones free of PvP)
Multiple factions. Whether guild or multiple in-game ones.
Strong cities but no one shot mechanics (npc or player char)
Balance is done by grouping not by solo playing (you try to balance a class to another, you get a mess. Finding player balance in a team is better. After all this is an MMO (MULTIPLAYER!!!) so if you wanna solo, that's fine, just stop whining if you can't do something alone though.)
Good cross class benefits. (This is where Aion ruled. You could be one shot by someone in 1v1 but in a 5v5, it could easily become a very balanced match because the classes melded so well together. How it was meant to be played.)
Its really simple why there needs to be a PvP restricted area; it's a game. If there wasn't a centralized area to fight you would need to have instanced battlegrounds like WoW which makes me vomit. The other alternative is to allow players to conquer all of Tamriel like a "real" war. But, you can see how this is impossible because there will inevitably be a loser in this contest, and what of the players in the losing factions? Before long there will be no war and PvP will be non existent.
Although I had fond memories of leveling in contested areas in WoW where I could be killed at any time, I understand the need for this separation. This is a game with potentially millions of players and the company wants to accommodate as many players as possible and I see this as a good compromise. In terms of lore as to why we cannot cross into enemy territories its as simple as placing artificial battle fields at the contested borders where NPCs are endlessly duking it out, or perhaps border patrol stations.
There is one aspect that they are not talking about, that I really do hope they implement; an Arena. I'm talking about having small group battles like 1 - 5 combatants with the sole purpose of killing each other. This is a good place where players can test their skills against real people and practice before heading into the war. I even fleshed out a way ALL 3 factions can fight each other. The capital cities all have arenas in them, once a player reaches a certain ranking they receive a message from Boethia to join in an epic tournament in his realm of Oblivion, so the best players in ALL of the factions can fight there in the tournament and get great exclusive gear. WHY CAN'T THEY IMPLEMENT THIS!
Its really simple why there needs to be a PvP restricted area; it's a game. If there wasn't a centralized area to fight you would need to have instanced battlegrounds like WoW which makes me vomit. The other alternative is to allow players to conquer all of Tamriel like a "real" war. But, you can see how this is impossible because there will inevitably be a loser in this contest, and what of the players in the losing factions? Before long there will be no war and PvP will be non existent.
Although I had fond memories of leveling in contested areas in WoW where I could be killed at any time, I understand the need for this separation. This is a game with potentially millions of players and the company wants to accommodate as many players as possible and I see this as a good compromise. In terms of lore as to why we cannot cross into enemy territories its as simple as placing artificial battle fields at the contested borders where NPCs are endlessly duking it out, or perhaps border patrol stations.
There is one aspect that they are not talking about, that I really do hope they implement; an Arena. I'm talking about having small group battles like 1 - 5 combatants with the sole purpose of killing each other. This is a good place where players can test their skills against real people and practice before heading into the war. I even fleshed out a way ALL 3 factions can fight each other. The capital cities all have arenas in them, once a player reaches a certain ranking they receive a message from Boethia to join in an epic tournament in his realm of Oblivion, so the best players in ALL of the factions can fight there in the tournament and get great exclusive gear. WHY CAN'T THEY IMPLEMENT THIS!