It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101. But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off.
It's possible that the One True Game won't ever happen, because we want 10 million different 'perfect game' list-of-features?
That's an awful lot of dart board bullseyes to hit.
It is. But I still think it's important to get them out there. If a developer happens to hit even half of those dart boards, it would be an improvement over where we are now.
Originally posted by Killsmallchi I am going to try and make this comment constructive. Can you make a tl;dr section for your tl;dr section? This is a very opposing wall and it only is made worse knowing the tl;dr section is still a wall.
Fair enough, I'll see what I can do for you.
Originally posted by IstrebiteI
I believe there is no such game, OP.
GW2 has great customization (just insane really with every weapon having its own skill set etc), but awful crafting economy (because there is one AH for whole game, all the servers, meaning you can never earn anything on your crafts because a gazillion of players all over the world can do the same). It also has no World PVP but reasonably fun huge-scale instanced pvp (its an instance specifically made for PVP but its a size of several normal game zones). GW2 also has that "wanderlust" aspect you're looking for - jumping puzzles, secret nooks and crannies, all that is awesome. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much to do at endgame, because even though you can get downleveled and go to lowlevel zones, mobs there are too easy after you experience level cap mobs. And no WPVP - no danger.
I already went over my concerns with GW2, but despite that I am willing to give it a chance. Unfortunately, I just realized they no longer have a trial. Apparently they only do them periodically. I guess I'll have to wait for the next one, because I'm not going to fork over $50 blindly.
I don't really know about anything else. I guess you should not be against paying for a game (really, you can try before you buy, and if you like it, would you be unable to pay ~$50?) especially because you're looking for a quality product and quality product should cost money, no?
Absolutely. I have nothing against paying for it, if I like it. Hell, I pre-ordered and kept an active subscription to RIFT to this very day, despite the shortcomings that game had. If I feel the game is of a high quality and it appeals to me, I'll be happy to pay for it.
Originally posted by Attend4455
actually I'm surprised no-one has pointed out to the OP that Eve Online fits all of the points he makes about what sort of game he likes.
*shrug*
Edit : he didn't specifically mention avatar play
Originally posted by countdogula You really need to try EVE. It is scifi, but seems to have everything that you are after and is an amazing game.
Unfortunately, EVE came out while I was still deep into L2. I've always been apprehensive about trying a game that has been around for years, knowing I'll have a lot of catching up to do, especially being a pretty casual gamer in terms of time available. I also prefer fantasy over sci fi.
Despite that, however, I am downloading the EVE trial as we speak. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion.
Great post. I never played L2 so i don't know how it played. WoW was my first MMORPG but if i was bothered by one thing, and pretty much with every MMO ever since is that there is no punishment at all. When you die you at most get a debuff for five minutes. Which can be removed by talking to a healer most of the times or games removed it at all (SWToR) so players don't feel punished. The only punishments is gear damage but you earn so much money these days that even that is a joke.
The no punishment sounds good right? Why do you need to lose exp or items? Well to make it more of a fight for life and death perhaps? To make it more exciting knowing that if you lose that battle you really lose something.
And i never understood why player killing wasn't really punished in some sort form. I mean gankers got a free pass right now. It gets frustrating too get killed over and over again by the same people who are much higher lvls with much better gear cause like you i don't have 24 hours per day to play the game. The Karma system sounds great, it allows people to kill others but makes them think twice. In RL there is free PvP as well. Doesn't mean you should go kill every random person you see walking down the street. There are laws in RL why not have that in games? Sure you don't have to go as far as in RL that you end up in jail for the next 20 years in a game. But make sure that those who kill for the thrill can do so but get punished in some sort of way. And the thing that you didn't see the others their lvl would really help too. Cause most gankers only attack those with a much lower lvl so they know they can win...and ironicly then shout you are the noob and should go run crying to your mother...where they have to fight lower lvls in order to win and feel great about themselves cause once you meet them in a fair fight they often are the ones finding themselves biting the dust and call you all the foul words they have learned in their lives and also call you a hacker and cheater cause off course when they lose its cause you been cheating.
Anyway great post. I would love to see a game with the ideas L2 had. Not sure if ArchAge is gonna be that game. People seem to be really hyping that game. I haven't done much reading about it as im from Europe and as far as i know they haven't plan a European release yet and the American version is as well still unknown when it will be released.
Originally posted by _redruM_ "Hi, folks.................... When we went back, we found a higher level guy burning karma (he had just killed someone else - open world pvp), and instead of killing him and having a chance at his items, we decided to let him join us so we could make it further in........."
I'm the anti-PvP. I don't know if I'll take time to read all OP's post. I read this far and thought, "Who does this???" This does not exist. I started with FFXI and there was no open world pvp. I thought it would be really great to have the extra challenge of some people chasing you instead of mobs. I switched to WoW PvP server. Boy was I wrong. Real people hunting me down makes me feel like an unloved vampire. "Torch the building he's in! Bring the stakes!!!" No thank you. But who the f* ever in pvp turns down an easy kill? You are all a bunch of blood lust shites that never say to yourselves, "Gee I think I'll let the little guy live."
Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.
Originally posted by _redruM_ "Hi, folks.................... When we went back, we found a higher level guy burning karma (he had just killed someone else - open world pvp), and instead of killing him and having a chance at his items, we decided to let him join us so we could make it further in........."
I'm the anti-PvP. I don't know if I'll take time to read all OP's post. I read this far and thought, "Who does this???" This does not exist. I started with FFXI and there was no open world pvp. I thought it would be really great to have the extra challenge of some people chasing you instead of mobs. I switched to WoW PvP server. Boy was I wrong. Real people hunting me down makes me feel like an unloved vampire. "Torch the building he's in! Bring the stakes!!!" No thank you. But who the f* ever in pvp turns down an easy kill? You are all a bunch of blood lust shites that never say to yourselves, "Gee I think I'll let the little guy live."
Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.
That's why the Karma system sounds like a good thing. Like you and Jemcrystal i don't like being hunted down by every little kid that thinks just because they can kill me they should kill me. It is anoying to get ganked and these same people are the one to defend it the hardest. Calling our kind of players "carebears" and such. Where its them who can't even do a fair fight (but they will shout on forums they only fight the same lvled ones cause they don't wanna come over as cowards). A karma system that makes them a target after killing to many people would prevent the massive gankfests. If they wear that bounty thing until they are killed by another player or by killing say hundred mobs it would reduce the amount of ganking already.
I played on a pvp server in Age of Conan as during the early access that was the only kind of RP server and by the time the game opened to every one i was already to deeply involved with the community to leave it for a PvE server. I hated how many people had the need to just kill for the kill. In RP it didn't make sense cause they would say "my char is a bastard and a murderer derp so i can gank you" but if you killed my char once then how can you kill me again? It where just weak excuses. During the intro zone only the white sand islands (or how was it called?) was a pvp zone. What happened ther ewas that people lvled to the max level before you leave the island and just waited at the quest area to gank the questers who where 5 lvls lower with much less skills to defend themselves and worse gear. How was that fair?
Open world pvp can be great like in Warhammer Online where you had keeps and places to defend or attack. though i played on a pve server it still had open world pvp zones. Those worked like a charm, i could do pvp in the open world when it suited me. I settle for that or a good punishment system that will reduce the ganking ammount. Even though the gankers will riot now calling me carebear and that i have to F* off as they are clearly the superior uber MMO race out there (who in RL at the age of 40 probably also only beat up kids between the age of 5 to 10 cause they know they can at least win that fight).
I would suggest you try Star Wars. The MMO featured the best and most meaningful storyline out of any game that I have ever played. I was actually interested in it. Gear has slots that allow you to get widely varying looks and stats. The crafting system is fairly simple as your companion does most of the work, but at the same time it is a risk vs reward because you can't have your favorite companions with you if they are out crafting. You might not stick with the game forever because the raiding (which you don't care about ) kinda sucks. The pvp is fun and original with games like huttball and capture the flag. In many ways it does follow the traditional mmo, but if they had kept their endgame going as good as their storyline this game would be the number 1 mmo out there right now.
To all the people out there claiming that nostalgia is what makes people remember the old mmos, you are crazy. Everyone I knew loved Vanguard's crafting system. It was a game unto itself. Grinding has never been that much fun but it makes it more fun when you actually achieve a goal, like acquiring an awesome item. New games don't have any concept of earning gear. You follow story quests and boom that is it. You can't go into the world and earn gear by learning spawn times or anything.
I think that what the OP is wanting the most is complexity and non-linearism. Everything is 1 path to level nowadays, 1 main zone. What about the original EQ, I mean holy crap there were multiple areas to level in. As a player you would earn experience different ways. Maybe you would repeat the CB Lego quests 200 times and get like 15 levels. Or maybe you would grind in East commons for 6 hours. Maybe you would kill guards in a city not your home and become completely hated. Where is ANY of the ingenuity that came with that game, now? I challenge you to name 1 newer mmo that has come out with that many options?
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Today's MMOs are more like 99c menus you find at McDonalds and Burger King etc. Eat it in 10 minutes and go watch the game. Gourmet food is all but forgotten.
Personally, it's the new MMOs that 'taste' like wood and plastic to me. It's not even McDonalds food; it's hamburger-helper, with the server standing there holding the spoon to shovel it into your mouth in the order he thinks best.
And if you don't want what he's putting in your mouth you have to go to a different restaurant entirely. Except nine out of ten of the other restaurants are offering the exact same thing, just not as well done.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Then you order the burger and quickly find out that you need to pay for the toppings, the condiments, what's that you say: you wanted a bun as well? Don't worry they're only $3.99. Oh and keep your eyes away from that table of whales over there in the corner so as not to make your appetite jealous from the sight of their stunning orders. Good deal, eh?
Because you do not "pay a dime" all you'd get is a lonely and boring patty, but it would still be "fun", right? Definitely not my kind of restaurant.
Good quality patty .. i will eat that any day. And yes, they are fun. Otherwise, why would i be playing them?
And there are thousands of those restaurants. Sometimes you get a free patty, sometimes free chicken .. way more variety than sticking to a boring sub-this-dorm meal plan and you have pizza for the rest of your life.
Great post. I never played L2 so i don't know how it played. WoW was my first MMORPG but if i was bothered by one thing, and pretty much with every MMO ever since is that there is no punishment at all. When you die you at most get a debuff for five minutes. Which can be removed by talking to a healer most of the times or games removed it at all (SWToR) so players don't feel punished. The only punishments is gear damage but you earn so much money these days that even that is a joke.
Yeah, dying in L2 could be punishing. Losing 4% or so progress to the next level after level 70ish could cost you hours. It wasn't uncommon for people to delevel during a siege or anything else where they were dying repeatedly. I know some people dislike that kind of thing, but I like that it really forces you to play smarter.
And i never understood why player killing wasn't really punished in some sort form. I mean gankers got a free pass right now. It gets frustrating too get killed over and over again by the same people who are much higher lvls with much better gear cause like you i don't have 24 hours per day to play the game. The Karma system sounds great, it allows people to kill others but makes them think twice.
And it's not just beneficial for the lowbies. Having that kind of risk involved, being on the run knowing that a group of people could come out of nowhere at any time and kill you for your items added a lot of excitement to that sort of gameplay that is absent from nearly all recent MMOs.
Anyway great post. I would love to see a game with the ideas L2 had. Not sure if ArchAge is gonna be that game. People seem to be really hyping that game. I haven't done much reading about it as im from Europe and as far as i know they haven't plan a European release yet and the American version is as well still unknown when it will be released.
Thanks, and yeah, ArchAge is something I'll be keeping my eyes on.
Originally posted by Jorendo
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Originally posted by _redruM_ "Hi, folks.................... When we went back, we found a higher level guy burning karma (he had just killed someone else - open world pvp), and instead of killing him and having a chance at his items, we decided to let him join us so we could make it further in........."
I'm the anti-PvP. I don't know if I'll take time to read all OP's post. I read this far and thought, "Who does this???" This does not exist. I started with FFXI and there was no open world pvp. I thought it would be really great to have the extra challenge of some people chasing you instead of mobs. I switched to WoW PvP server. Boy was I wrong. Real people hunting me down makes me feel like an unloved vampire. "Torch the building he's in! Bring the stakes!!!" No thank you. But who the f* ever in pvp turns down an easy kill? You are all a bunch of blood lust shites that never say to yourselves, "Gee I think I'll let the little guy live."
Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.
Open world pvp can be great like in Warhammer Online where you had keeps and places to defend or attack. though i played on a pve server it still had open world pvp zones. Those worked like a charm, i could do pvp in the open world when it suited me. I settle for that or a good punishment system that will reduce the ganking ammount. Even though the gankers will riot now calling me carebear and that i have to F* off as they are clearly the superior uber MMO race out there (who in RL at the age of 40 probably also only beat up kids between the age of 5 to 10 cause they know they can at least win that fight).
I really enjoy open world pvp that is really open, and none of that instanced garbage. It just makes the content more exciting and unpredictable on both sides of the table. Of course, you do need to have a system in place to create a natural deterrent for people killing lowbies. I dislike arbitrary caps or restrictions, so I liked the karma system as it provided a reasonably functional metaphor for real life.
Originally posted by Taroganow.
To all the people out there claiming that nostalgia is what makes people remember the old mmos, you are crazy. Everyone I knew loved Vanguard's crafting system. It was a game unto itself. Grinding has never been that much fun but it makes it more fun when you actually achieve a goal, like acquiring an awesome item. New games don't have any concept of earning gear. You follow story quests and boom that is it. You can't go into the world and earn gear by learning spawn times or anything.
Yeah, I really dislike accepting quest after quest, knowing ahead of time what I will get in return for it. Or even worse, grinding faction or pvp reputation just so you can wear the same gear everyone else wears 10 levels down the road. There really needs to be more of a sense of discovery, surprise, and randomization.
I think that what the OP is wanting the most is complexity and non-linearism. Everything is 1 path to level nowadays, 1 main zone. What about the original EQ, I mean holy crap there were multiple areas to level in. As a player you would earn experience different ways. Maybe you would repeat the CB Lego quests 200 times and get like 15 levels. Or maybe you would grind in East commons for 6 hours. Maybe you would kill guards in a city not your home and become completely hated. Where is ANY of the ingenuity that came with that game, now? I challenge you to name 1 newer mmo that has come out with that many options?
That's a large part of what I'm saying, yes. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to play EQ. EQ2 came out around the same time as Vanguard, and when SoE purchased it they showed obvious favoritism toward EQ2, which made a lot of us Vanguard players bitter towards it. Here's hoping EQ Next builds upon the same fundamentals that made the original what it was.
On a side note, I've started playing EVE. I may update this thread with my thoughts on it after my trial is over.
Comments
It is. But I still think it's important to get them out there. If a developer happens to hit even half of those dart boards, it would be an improvement over where we are now.
Fair enough, I'll see what I can do for you.
Absolutely. I have nothing against paying for it, if I like it. Hell, I pre-ordered and kept an active subscription to RIFT to this very day, despite the shortcomings that game had. If I feel the game is of a high quality and it appeals to me, I'll be happy to pay for it.
Unfortunately, EVE came out while I was still deep into L2. I've always been apprehensive about trying a game that has been around for years, knowing I'll have a lot of catching up to do, especially being a pretty casual gamer in terms of time available. I also prefer fantasy over sci fi.
Despite that, however, I am downloading the EVE trial as we speak. We'll see how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion.
Also, what is meant by 'avatar play'?
Great post. I never played L2 so i don't know how it played. WoW was my first MMORPG but if i was bothered by one thing, and pretty much with every MMO ever since is that there is no punishment at all. When you die you at most get a debuff for five minutes. Which can be removed by talking to a healer most of the times or games removed it at all (SWToR) so players don't feel punished. The only punishments is gear damage but you earn so much money these days that even that is a joke.
The no punishment sounds good right? Why do you need to lose exp or items? Well to make it more of a fight for life and death perhaps? To make it more exciting knowing that if you lose that battle you really lose something.
And i never understood why player killing wasn't really punished in some sort form. I mean gankers got a free pass right now. It gets frustrating too get killed over and over again by the same people who are much higher lvls with much better gear cause like you i don't have 24 hours per day to play the game. The Karma system sounds great, it allows people to kill others but makes them think twice. In RL there is free PvP as well. Doesn't mean you should go kill every random person you see walking down the street. There are laws in RL why not have that in games? Sure you don't have to go as far as in RL that you end up in jail for the next 20 years in a game. But make sure that those who kill for the thrill can do so but get punished in some sort of way. And the thing that you didn't see the others their lvl would really help too. Cause most gankers only attack those with a much lower lvl so they know they can win...and ironicly then shout you are the noob and should go run crying to your mother...where they have to fight lower lvls in order to win and feel great about themselves cause once you meet them in a fair fight they often are the ones finding themselves biting the dust and call you all the foul words they have learned in their lives and also call you a hacker and cheater cause off course when they lose its cause you been cheating.
Anyway great post. I would love to see a game with the ideas L2 had. Not sure if ArchAge is gonna be that game. People seem to be really hyping that game. I haven't done much reading about it as im from Europe and as far as i know they haven't plan a European release yet and the American version is as well still unknown when it will be released.
Agree fully with you. I'm also kind of person that will help player of opposite faction when in pve trouble ... not taking opportunity to jump at his troath. I enjoyed however some time battlegrounds and alike ... but would never create anything on some pvp server.
That's why the Karma system sounds like a good thing. Like you and Jemcrystal i don't like being hunted down by every little kid that thinks just because they can kill me they should kill me. It is anoying to get ganked and these same people are the one to defend it the hardest. Calling our kind of players "carebears" and such. Where its them who can't even do a fair fight (but they will shout on forums they only fight the same lvled ones cause they don't wanna come over as cowards). A karma system that makes them a target after killing to many people would prevent the massive gankfests. If they wear that bounty thing until they are killed by another player or by killing say hundred mobs it would reduce the amount of ganking already.
I played on a pvp server in Age of Conan as during the early access that was the only kind of RP server and by the time the game opened to every one i was already to deeply involved with the community to leave it for a PvE server. I hated how many people had the need to just kill for the kill. In RP it didn't make sense cause they would say "my char is a bastard and a murderer derp so i can gank you" but if you killed my char once then how can you kill me again? It where just weak excuses. During the intro zone only the white sand islands (or how was it called?) was a pvp zone. What happened ther ewas that people lvled to the max level before you leave the island and just waited at the quest area to gank the questers who where 5 lvls lower with much less skills to defend themselves and worse gear. How was that fair?
Open world pvp can be great like in Warhammer Online where you had keeps and places to defend or attack. though i played on a pve server it still had open world pvp zones. Those worked like a charm, i could do pvp in the open world when it suited me. I settle for that or a good punishment system that will reduce the ganking ammount. Even though the gankers will riot now calling me carebear and that i have to F* off as they are clearly the superior uber MMO race out there (who in RL at the age of 40 probably also only beat up kids between the age of 5 to 10 cause they know they can at least win that fight).
OP,
I would suggest you try Star Wars. The MMO featured the best and most meaningful storyline out of any game that I have ever played. I was actually interested in it. Gear has slots that allow you to get widely varying looks and stats. The crafting system is fairly simple as your companion does most of the work, but at the same time it is a risk vs reward because you can't have your favorite companions with you if they are out crafting. You might not stick with the game forever because the raiding (which you don't care about ) kinda sucks. The pvp is fun and original with games like huttball and capture the flag. In many ways it does follow the traditional mmo, but if they had kept their endgame going as good as their storyline this game would be the number 1 mmo out there right now.
To all the people out there claiming that nostalgia is what makes people remember the old mmos, you are crazy. Everyone I knew loved Vanguard's crafting system. It was a game unto itself. Grinding has never been that much fun but it makes it more fun when you actually achieve a goal, like acquiring an awesome item. New games don't have any concept of earning gear. You follow story quests and boom that is it. You can't go into the world and earn gear by learning spawn times or anything.
I think that what the OP is wanting the most is complexity and non-linearism. Everything is 1 path to level nowadays, 1 main zone. What about the original EQ, I mean holy crap there were multiple areas to level in. As a player you would earn experience different ways. Maybe you would repeat the CB Lego quests 200 times and get like 15 levels. Or maybe you would grind in East commons for 6 hours. Maybe you would kill guards in a city not your home and become completely hated. Where is ANY of the ingenuity that came with that game, now? I challenge you to name 1 newer mmo that has come out with that many options?
Personally, it's the new MMOs that 'taste' like wood and plastic to me. It's not even McDonalds food; it's hamburger-helper, with the server standing there holding the spoon to shovel it into your mouth in the order he thinks best.
And if you don't want what he's putting in your mouth you have to go to a different restaurant entirely. Except nine out of ten of the other restaurants are offering the exact same thing, just not as well done.
Good quality patty .. i will eat that any day. And yes, they are fun. Otherwise, why would i be playing them?
And there are thousands of those restaurants. Sometimes you get a free patty, sometimes free chicken .. way more variety than sticking to a boring sub-this-dorm meal plan and you have pizza for the rest of your life.
Yeah, dying in L2 could be punishing. Losing 4% or so progress to the next level after level 70ish could cost you hours. It wasn't uncommon for people to delevel during a siege or anything else where they were dying repeatedly. I know some people dislike that kind of thing, but I like that it really forces you to play smarter.
And it's not just beneficial for the lowbies. Having that kind of risk involved, being on the run knowing that a group of people could come out of nowhere at any time and kill you for your items added a lot of excitement to that sort of gameplay that is absent from nearly all recent MMOs.
Thanks, and yeah, ArchAge is something I'll be keeping my eyes on.
I really enjoy open world pvp that is really open, and none of that instanced garbage. It just makes the content more exciting and unpredictable on both sides of the table. Of course, you do need to have a system in place to create a natural deterrent for people killing lowbies. I dislike arbitrary caps or restrictions, so I liked the karma system as it provided a reasonably functional metaphor for real life.
Yeah, I really dislike accepting quest after quest, knowing ahead of time what I will get in return for it. Or even worse, grinding faction or pvp reputation just so you can wear the same gear everyone else wears 10 levels down the road. There really needs to be more of a sense of discovery, surprise, and randomization.
That's a large part of what I'm saying, yes. Unfortunately, I never had the chance to play EQ. EQ2 came out around the same time as Vanguard, and when SoE purchased it they showed obvious favoritism toward EQ2, which made a lot of us Vanguard players bitter towards it. Here's hoping EQ Next builds upon the same fundamentals that made the original what it was.
On a side note, I've started playing EVE. I may update this thread with my thoughts on it after my trial is over.