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The simple fact of the matter is...
Hrimnir
Member RarePosts: 2,415
People who never got to experience EverQuest at or near release, and up through the first few expansions, just won't get it. They'll never understand what true community is. What a real sandbox PVE game can be. What an awesome overall experience the game was.
People are going to pull the "oh its just nostalgia" cards, and accuse me/us of rose colored glasses, but they would be heinously wrong to do so.
I almost feel like us original EQ vets are the equivalent of astronauts trying to explain to people the feeling of walking on the moon, or being in space, etc. You can put it into words but it just doesn't encompass the entirety of it.
No, im not trying to suggest that the game was perfect. What i am trying to suggest is the core principles that we have moved further and further away are what were perfect. Overly harsh death penalties? yea, that was bad. Losing XP and having to spend 2 hours or more getting it back was lame. Possibility of permanently losing your corpse and thus everything you had acquired? yes, stupid.
Multiple starting areas and cities for each race? Good
Heavily, HEAVILY incentivized grouping? Good
Not "resetting" the game loot wise every expansion? Good
Rare items actually being *gasp* rare? Good
Handcrafted boss drops that don't follow some ridiculous "pool of stats that get distributed based on item level"? Good. VERY good.
Clearly defined class roles? Good
A deep, intricate faction system, and it could be altered through hard work!?!!!?! Good
No bullshit 2 faction "good vs evil" system that splits the game population in half for no good reason? Excellent
Long leveling times that took the emphasis off of reaching some fictional "end game" and allowed you to enjoy the myriad other aspects of an MMO like exploration, dungeons that werent at max level, etc etc? Good
I could keep going but alas, like every other this post will fall on deaf ears. But, at least it made me feel better for the short time i took typing it out.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Comments
Having started EQ in '99 I know exactly what you mean. Your server knew you, your reputaition, if you were good playing your class, if you were a jerk, cool, nice, fun -- whatever. the game didn't hold your hand, they gave the players, even at launch this huge world and told you to go wherever you want, explore, run whatever dungeon you find, locate rare spawns, camps, adventure -- it was a community, it felt like a living breathing world. not some lobby, quest hub experience. I used to love EQ's slogan. "you're in our world now" -- and that's just it, they created a world, not a game lobby.
There's never been "a true community" anywhere outside of EverQuest?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
First, Everquest is a themepark, not a sandbox.
Second, having played Everquest up through Velious, I can say it is nostalgia. What people remember is their first MMO or first 3D MMO and all the experiences they had with it, including the specific people they played with during that time. None of that will ever come back, no matter what shape or form any other MMO comes in. If they really wanted to get the EQ experience back, they can go play on a Project 1999 server and relive the old EQ all over again.... but they aren't.
I was there, and it was great but I think you're just not analytical enough to see that it really was just nostalgia and lack of options.
You can't compare the community then to now. Computers weren't commonplace as they are now, gaming computers even less so, so the community was more tight-knit by default. You knew people because of the sheer lack of numbers and the necessity to know people. What was considered a successful MMO then is considered a flop now (numerically). With the amount of players present in games now it would be a horrendous experience. There used to be a couple trains here and there that were usually accidental just think about the people that would intentionally train groups, come in and steal camps, cut in line for bosses, and generally just ruin this type of game.
Rose colored glasses, my friend....and for good reason.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
Great post OP. Something myself and others have tried to explain i'm sure many times here and on other forums and in rl. you have hit the nail better than most of my attempts for sure.
Second reading your post gave me an idea. Your longer leveling times is a good idea, its what is missing from games today. (LoM anyone? took me 2 months to hit 18) The thing is not matter how long you make a level someone out there has the capacity to kill boars in the forest all day long and will still attempt 'max' level if there is one as soon as possible. before doing any other content. The solution I have come up with while reading your post is a different leveling model. where to get the full statistical improvement from a level-up requires multiple things. Such as:
1 week since last level up = +1 all stats
Killed at least 1k monsters since last level-up = +1 Strength
Crafted 10 common items since last level-up = +1 Crafting skill.
Im sure you get my point. Obviously depends greatly on how any game works but i figure this will stop the idiots who grind out max level asap for no reason other than to show off their l33t skillz.
If you continue to make sweeping statements like you know what everyone everywhere thinks about a certain topic then I am going to shout at you.
It easy to type 'I think this is the worst game ever'
Rather than the 'This is the worst game ever'
I would love for this game to be group to level like the original and eqoa! I know it wont tho.
"Negaholics are people who become addicted to negativity and self-doubt, they find fault in most things and never seem to be satisfied."
^MMORPG.com
Doubt you will stop the zero to max level freight train any time soon... the focus has been placed so much on end game that all that proceeds it is considered a useless grind. No game has come out as of late that hasn't been overwhelmed by the swarm of locusts devouring the content up in record pace. I see nothing changing the behavior of gamers any time soon.
The simple fact of the matter is, the gaming community is totally different than it was back then. You can't expect them to play on dial-up when they've all experienced T1 and up for years now.
Listen to all the banter about drop rates in WoW raids... it's not about defeating anyone... it's about getting into the latest gear first. They aren't willing to wait for anything.
@Hrimnir: So many posts later, years of trying to put words on what Eq was, why we don't view it through rose tinted glasses. If You didn't do it, You can not understand the dept of Eq, and see how every other mmorpg fade in comparison. So yeah I will have to agree that generally that You can't explain Eq in words to someone who never experienced it.. first mmorpg or not.
Even Smed seem oblivious at times. Dave Georgeson might have a clue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-MEgLXKXs . Brad definately.
That is why I still have a little faith in eqnext.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
LOL yeah, this is exactly what I thought when I read the OP. Maybe I won't understand the inside story of EQ , but when I played Final Fantasy XI, we had an incredible community. The loss for death was significant, etc. Grinding was cruel. Adds and trains were cruel and would wipe out every xp group in entire sections of a map. Getting to Jueno as a level 10 was an horrific experience when you first started. Hell just getting to the Dunes kind of sucked. I spent five years getting one piece of gear and when I finally did, almost every NA player on the server knew it.
Yet, EQ is the only game that's ever had anything remotely difficult with a good community. Come on.
That said, I'm getting excited about the game and honestly if the community is really that good, I'm even more excited. I really want something that's immersive, with lots to do, good community, etc.
Looks awesome.
I swear I'm not trolling here but...."looks awesome"?
WHAT?
I want EQN to be great but what looks awesome? Nothing is released yet it's purely a hype-train right now. Even worse than CU was and is.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
All first gen mmorpgs had fantastic communities. Its not the game its the people. Back then mmorpg gamers were RPG enthusiasts. People played because they enjoyed RPG games.
Now you have epeen try hards who just want to dominate then make you feel like shit. They are not interested in any aspects of the game that don't directly involve this. Then you have the meme fanclub who just troll people in chat all day with whatever meme material they can get a response from.
We are never going back to how it was, and community has only gotten worse, and will continue to decline. This will be made worse by mouthbreathers who hate RPG games, and have every mmorpg they play, yet cant connect two neurons together and go find a new hobby, I mean stopped playing sports games when I stopped enjoying them but these people cant figure that out. Top it off with the fact that everyones now a narcissistic professor in whatever topic is at hand and you have people who feel its their mission in life to educate people as to why their opinion is fact...which is why people sit around all day and try to covert you to hating a game they dislike...which to me is the epitome of wasting your life.
Anyway, just be glad you got to be a part of mmorpg gaming at its peak. Try to enjoy the new games for what they are not what they are not, try to find like minded people then shut out the rest of the community, and there you might find a sliver of the old ways.
Its not the game that made the community though, not by a long shot.
Fair enough. Everything I'm reading sounds awesome - true sandbox, good community, etc. We'll see if it all turns out.
Thank you.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I hope you are wrong, but think you might be right ...
My only hope is that there will be enough backlash from like-minded folks that someone eventually builds and supports a game that give us old timers what we remember from the "good ole days."
Had to stop right there. EQ1 has never been a sandbox. It's a themepark.
Edit* As not to be a total punkass, yes EQ1 did a lot of things right. One of them being so much group oriented gameplay.
nethervoid - Est. '97
[UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|AQW|DN|SWTOR|Dofus|SotA|BDO|AO|NW|LA] - Currently Playing EQ1
20k+ subs YouTube Gaming channel
There needs to be a shift in the actual genre. A way to rate other players and have that be seen. Look at League of Legends, for instance, which had such a volatile and horrible community. In came The Tribunal and the ability to rate players after the game as friendly/helpful/teamwork or even enemies as Honorable. Then as they get more of these they get stupid little markers that differentiate them as each thing (like titles). These have zero impact on anything, however, people are far more helpful, they actually give good advice rather than scream hate.
Could this work in an MMO? Maybe, I'd bet so, since so many people like these little ratings/numbers/etc..
**edit**
Really peer review could only be a good thing. And with EQs use of factions etc it could easily be built into the game so that all those people that need immersion could still keep their fantasies intact.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
No no no, Eq is not a Themepark. I dont think your definition of Themepark matches the general consensus. You could argue what Sandbox really means, and also that Eq is not that much of a Sandbox, but a Themepark it is definately not.
Eq2 could be called a little Themepark ish, but that is an entirely different kind of game.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
So true.....
And just to speak about leveling for a moment. I am currently playing GW2 and consider leveling in this game fairly easy and quick. I am in a guild and constantly hear "OMG, I finally made level 30!" "Yes, I made level 60!" etc.. Apparently this is a monumental achievement and you need to congratulate these people for "their hard work". I first started rolling my eyes but now just used to it. There is a game just released and I think advertised around here that promises level 25 in hours. Really? I am with you on the level issue. If it took me a month to achieve a level not sure I would care. I am playing the game and having fun, right? But people today need to hear "DING! DING!" OMG I levelled! They are impatient and would not tolerate a game that took a long time to level. If you disagree with this you just have not played enough modern MMOs and seen the people bitching about "how slow" it is to level.
DING! Another level
Best argument ever....if you disagree you're not only wrong but you're inexperienced.
Sorry but you're just not looking at it the right way. I would GLADLY have it take a long time to level if the content was there to keep me entertained long enough. Again, it was so great at the time because we didn't know better. I remember sitting there for hours grinding on gnolls or skeletons or whatever, however, now I do know better, I've had options and I know that there can be more.
I don't care about how fast it is to level, but at least make it worth the time I'm sacrificing to play the game. If I want a grind-fest I'll play one of the MANY asian grind-fests out there. Making the grind require a group and calling that group play is just a poor excuse as well, even though it helps the monotony slightly.
Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.
100% agree with you. I work full-time, am married with a 3-year old daughter. I get to play for about 3 hours on a good night - and most games I've played recently take me a month or less to get to level cap. Another couple months to be completely decked out in the best gear. That's about the time I lose interest. Terrible.
Actually you're completely wrong. EQ's servers held just as many people as any modern MMO's, and, since there was no faction splitting ala WOW or many other games, you actually encountered a lot MORE people than in games like WOW. So, there goes that BS argument.
Anyways, your little argument about the total number of subs is irrelevant. You have to compare the size of the sub base to the size of the player pool. At the time EQ was out it encompassed better than 50% of the entire MMO player base.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche