Originally posted by Axehilt The win isn't automatic -- you need to be skilled to beat a challenge. The win isn't instant -- you need to be skilled for a duration
Really? You need to be SKILLED huh?
...Let's not mistake "skill" for having good enough GEAR and mashing the same one or to hot bar spells/attacks over and over and over. (Which defines most mmos today)
ffa pvp games often require a time investment which i simply don't have the capacity to make. moreover i don't often play games, or even watch movies, which require a vast amount of thought. i enjoy the complexities of making builds in gw2 and rift, but that's about it. i have other things to bust my brain over. these days if i want to do some thinking in a game i play one of the total war games.
so what do i get out of these games? well... y'know. fun.
From the sound of it, this is more like the thrill of playing a slot machine, or any type of gamble. Instead of people spend real money, they trade it off with time.
It's come down to that by trading this time gathering small rewards to trade it off with bigger reward if success, and lose it if fail has it down side with collecting enough small rewards itself just mind numbing boring. The only people who would go through that again and again just to reach the high point of risk are just the thrill addicted who willing to grind just to get there.
Some has little time to go through that part, hint F2P where player spent real money they've earn to skip the bit just to get to the thrill faster. When they have acquire the best possible reward, there is nothing else for them, and they move on.
This is one of the reason why we're having a F2P revolution at the moment, and the reason with the "Insta-Win" so player can spent lots of real money in a short period of time, until the next expansion releases for players to spent more money in. People are getting self satisfaction from buying virtual goods, while some earn that virtual goods by spent their time farming them. F2P is covering both type of players. With subscription based, if player has to pay monthly as well as spend time just to get the rewards, it put some people off because they don't want to spend money and know they will not get reward by not spend enough time in it. It just too much risk, where they can spend that money on food or other thing they can get right away in real life.
F2P: Whale hunting. Let the bait out in the open and hope that from amount of players biting on the bait, there will be a whale who jump in and spent lots and lots of money on items at once.
Subscription based: Balancing between risk and rewards. If risk is too high than reward, player will quit. If rewards is higher than risk... Well, people like when rewards is higher than risk, but they will move on when there is no more rewards to gain.
While I can agree with some of what you say, this statement is absolutely silly itself.
Reward should be completely based on the amount of RISK taken.
No risk? No reward! ..And THAT is the problem I see with mmorpgs today. It's wayyy too much reward for absolutely no risk what-so-ever. That is why I called it "insta-win" in the title of my thread.
IMO, you only get truly excited about gaining a potential reward when there is some level of risk involved. And that reward should be balanced VS the amount of risk taken.
Let me explain...
I want to take my melee warrior into a new unknown dungeon. I don't know what lies in there, but I have heard at the end of it is a nice reward, a vast chest of treasure and gold.
If I die, my warrior will fall and leave everything on the corpse. Let's also say that the mobs here are smart enough to take valuable treasure off of my corpse and it will stay on them until they are slayed and looted by a player.
So... as I search through my bank box, I realize I have 12,000 gold. I also only have a tattered leather armor set that isn't worth much money. My sword isn't the best. So if I go like this, I will take a bigger risk of getting killed, but my risk of loss isn't as high. I could however choose to use most of 12k gold to buy a very nice armor set and a much better magical sword. If I do this, I would likely have less risk of death, but I would obviously be risking almost everything in my bank box.
This is the type of risk vs reward I speak of that is vacant in most of todays mmorpg games. This is the type of decisions that make that journey into that dungeon all the more 'edge of your seat'. Again, this is just my opinion - But hopefully you catch my drift and understand what I mean by RISK vs REWARD.
- Zaxx
Part of the point of gaming is to provide an environment which is fundamentally free (or light) on risk, so you can master patterns which (in some cases) are relevant to real life. And sure, one pattern some people find interesting is risk management (gambling.) But it's flat out wrong to imply that's the only way games can be satisfying to players.
Risk vs. reward is satisfying to some, but challenge vs. reward is satisfying to everyone (although the "sweet spot of challenge" for any given player can vary significantly.) Risk management is simply one subset of types of challenges.
"Insta-win" makes little sense, even as useless hyperbole goes. The win isn't automatic -- you need to be skilled to beat a challenge. The win isn't instant -- you need to be skilled for a duration (because rarely are challenges completed instantly; typically they involve repeated skill checks, like having to avoid standing in the fire multiple times in a fight, in order to ensure the player was being skilled to win, not just that they randomly stumbled upon victory.)
It's tragic to hear that you only enjoy gambling-based games (because it deprives you of a ton of really fun gaming experiences.), but you probably understand that you're in the minority and that most players are more interested in the challenge than the suffering.
You are so wrong about him being in the minority which enjoys "gambling-based" games. You're also really pushing it by saying that managing risks = gambling, managing risks involves a great deal of experience AND skills in a lot of modern games. In managing your risks you usually need to minimize them by making the best decisions possibles with the available information.
Just look at RTS's and MOBA these days. Take LoL, SC2 and Dota for instance. These games' player bases are much larger than the current MMO scene, everywhere in the world atm. You certainly can't call it a minority. And a big part of what makes these games so exciting to play and watch ? The risks involved in the decision making processes that you go through in a game.
For instance, most every move in starcraft 2 involves a certain amount of risk which you need to manage using your experience and "skills" which makes this game so exciting to play and watch. The "reward" is usually a certain gain of points (ladder/MMR) and the obvious feeling of a victory. If you poorly manage your risks, you lose. Losing sucks. Sucks much more than having to walk 30 seconds back to your encounter without feeling any penalties whatsoever. The same applies to LoL and many other games out there. Taking risks in a game IS exciting for A LOT of people.
Originally posted by zymurgeist A blacksmith has to have good enough gear. He has to mash the same metal with a hammer over and over and over. If you believe that's not a skill I urge you to try it some time. No skill is difficult once you've properly learned it.
That isn't SKILL. When I say skill, I mean your skill as a player, not a characters blacksmith skill or their sorcery skill, lol.
Mindlessly mashing the same two hot bars while eating a greasy fast food burger might be fun, I dunno, but it's not "skill". Not to mention most of these mmo games today require almost zero thought process. Before you get upset, think about it. Most mmo games today show you a COLOR CODE of the danger to your character a mobs presents. You know you will always own yellow and blue and green colored mobs and you just mindless attack those mobs until they are all dead. Oh wait, you do gotta watch your power bar or your stamina and stop and rest for 5 seconds sometimes. Wow. Deep skills and insane thought required. LoL.
When I say SKILL... watch the linked YouTube video I found of a player playing Asheron's Call a couple of months ago. Watch not only his precision timed fingers movements over many keys, but also his ability to dodge out of the way of bolt spells cast at him. He has to pay careful attention to many things at once on the screen, time his attacks correctly, and think ahead of his opponent to win. It's not just mashing hot bar keys over and over and over while eating chips and his gear stats vs his opponents gear stats. With skill, he could take out a MUCH higher level character with much better gear if he can out think, out wit, and out maneuver him.
If you watched that video, I think you MIGHT see the difference between that and a game like WoW or Rift. If you can't see the difference and want to continue to argue how games like WOW require soooo much skill, then there is really nothing further I can say.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar and yet WoW is an actual esport with extremely competitve players, thousands of dollars and sponsors. Odd. But your right there is no skill involved.
LOL. People bet tons of money on chicken fights and gamble billions on lotteries as well. I suppose you think that requires skill too?
If you're going to make a point, at least think for 5 seconds before you say it. I've played World of Warcraft. There is almost ZERO risk and almost ZERO skill required, yes I stand firm in my belief in that. Now have you played PvP on the Darktide server of Asheron's Call? If not, I suggest you go try your hands at it, then come back and tell me again how much risk and skill World of Warcraft requires.
Games are made for fun. For people who don't have time to get their self-satisfaction from games, because they are busy getting their real self-satisfaction from real life - jobs, relationships, housing, even.
They (or, rather, we) want from game fun and fun only, and, having self-satisfaction and meaningful experience from real life, have no need to sublimate it with games.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar and yet WoW is an actual esport with extremely competitve players, thousands of dollars and sponsors. Odd. But your right there is no skill involved.
LOL. People bet tons of money on chicken fights and gamble billions on lotteries as well. I suppose you think that requires skill too?
If you're going to make a point, at least think for 5 seconds before you say it. I've played World of Warcraft. There is almost ZERO risk and almost ZERO skill required, yes I stand firm in my belief in that. Now have you played PvP on the Darktide server of Asheron's Call? If not, I suggest you go try your hands at it, then come back and tell me again how much risk and skill World of Warcraft requires.
- Zaxx
Sure it does. There likely is a great deal of skill in determining which chicken is strongest or fastest based on observed physical characteristics and stats.
And a lottery is not in the same category, don't be silly.
There is not a lot of risk, but once again, that doesn't mean there isn't skill.
There is a great deal of skill involved in it actually. There is probably more theory crafting in wow for enchantments/gearscore/gems/ and whatever else is invovled than in probably any other MMO on the market. Especially for pvp. Yes you can go about and just stroll through if you want. You can do that with Chess too. And chess doesn't have any risk either.
and once again the pvp is an actual esport.
I stand firm in my belief that you really don't know what you are talking about and are just looking for ways to hate on modern games.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by Grahor Games are made for fun. For people who don't have time to get their self-satisfaction from games, because they are busy getting their real self-satisfaction from real life - jobs, relationships, housing, even. They (or, rather, we) want from game fun and fun only, and, having self-satisfaction and meaningful experience from real life, have no need to sublimate it with games.
I can absolutely understand and respect that. Everyone has their own opinions on what is fun to them and everyone is different. But if you've never played a game like what I speak of, then my only point is that you've missed out on something truly great. Granted you might not like it as well, but then again, if you have idea what I speak of or where I am coming from, then you really wouldn't know... would you?
Don't make the mistake of assuming I don't have a job, a family, kids, or a life. I do. I just prefer much more DEPTH in the games I play, surely you can understand that much. To me, its like the the mmo games today are "Go Fish" in the card game world. I prefer Poker. I don't mean the gambling in poker, I mean the depth of the card game it self. Go fish can be fun, especially if you play with friends, kids or whatever. But Poker to me is a lot more fun.
Depth is about meaningfull decisions. Games today have about as much depth as games of old, some have more, some have less. This hasn't really changed. Some like AC (going by you) and I"m told UO had a great deal of meaningfull decisions. Some like EQ had very very few meaningfull decisons and therefore depth.
Yes I'm saying EQ was not a deep game in terms of decisions. You can argue it had meaning all you want but depth is defined as meaningfull decisions and EQ did not have a lot of that, gameplay was auto-attack and 2-3 buttons for melee and 8 buttons for casters with a bit of knowledge needed on pulling and crowd control. Yes it was harder to level, and took longer to level but that doesn't make it deep.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Depth is about meaningfull decisions. Games today have about as much depth than games of old, some have more, some have less. This hasn't really changed.
I agree with you about GAMES today have a lot of depth. Absolutely.
Games like Neverwinter Nights (the rpg not the upcoming mmo), Starcraft 2, Demons Souls, Company of Heroes, and many many more have fascinating depth.
Most MMOs today have very little actual depth. Unless you think that spamming hot keys until you get the best gear in the game "depth". I certainly do not.
Okay, first off I dislike griefers as much as any other player.
What I do want is a well-designed AAA mmo title built today that gives us something similar to pre-trammel Ultima Online or Asheron's Call on the Darktide server back in the day. Where players who want to player kill another player risk a bounty on their head or turning red and not being given the luxury of being able to enter towns any longer.
Look at the mainstream mmo games today...
Warrior tough guy foolishly enters a higher level instant dungeon all alone and gets killed within seconds. So he goes and buys a CASH pay-to-win sword and armor and re-enters without leveling up or finding a buddy to help out. Dead again. Rinse and repeat 14 times. The guy is being utterly foolish and using no skill what so ever, no strategy in the constantly spamming the same hot bar spell/attack button over and over.
There is really no way he can survive this instanced dungeon alone unless he levels up or gets help because there really is no skill involved period. But he foolishly re-enters this instance 14 times in a row.
Where is the penalty for being stupid or making a mistake??
Most games today will give this goof ball some experience for failure as well. So eventually he will gain a level and by mashing the same hot bar button 100 times, he will WIN! YAY!
..But my question is Where is the self-satisfaction in THIS??
Not to mention, nobody wants to experience the world built for them anymore. Nobody reads the lore, the quests, or takes time to appreciate the attention to detail in the beautifully designed graphics, the flowing river, or the 100 foot waterfall in the distance. Nobody appreciates the puffy and realistic looking clouds. Its just this silly mentality to "WIN NOW, GET GET GET ME ME ME MORE MORE MORE"
I just don't get it. I haven't understood this for years.
Lets take a popular multi-player game on the consoles to compare. With the consoles, at least people are playing online shooter games and using real skill and fast reflexes to try and out skill, out think, and out-wit other players to win. - I can get this and appreciate it.
So in comparison, where does any self satisfaction come from in these way too easy, never lose anything mmo games? Why even play if there is never a penalty (besides minor exp loss or time) for being stupid or making a dumb mistake?
See, real satisfaction comes from knowing you survived something that was actually a challenge. And with that comes other players. No matter how advanced they might make the AI of mobs in an mmo, it will never be anywhere close to what other players can present.
No death consequence games with no PvP can't possibly offer the racing heart excitement that came with games like Ultima Online back in the late 1990s. By comparison look at most WoW players today. They sit back in their big desk chair and are half asleep, bored to death just mashing the same hot bar keys over and over... Never any real excitment. Nothing to make anyone sweat, or to make their heart beat faster. How is this FUN?!?!
I'd love to have a real conversation and honesty from you players that say you hate PvP games. Have you EVER felt your heart race with excitement in a game without PvP? Yes I know some of these games offer PvP in zones, but even that is just who has the best gear and who mashes the hot bar buttons fastest. The fireballs hit the other player regardless of their movement. There is no way to really dodge, or out manuever the other player. It's stats vs stats, period. The outcome is already per-decided. The same two players fight 100 times, the same player will will 99 or 100 times out of 100 unless some stats change to change that outcome. There just is no skill involved, or sure, a little maybe. Something stupid low like 5% skill and 95% stat based outcomes. Hell rolling dice would be more entertaining because at least then you'd have some level of surprise.
Yes, the graphics are prettier in Rift then they are in Asheron's Call or Ultima Online. I get that! But the depth of the games now is like a front yard mud hole filled with rain water compared to the Pacific ocean when compared against mmo's from 15 years ago, the mmos that paved the way for all these pretty, shiny things we have today.
What's sadder is when anyone even suggests or says that hope a new AAA game offers some PvP with death consequence, that person instantly gets 100 people crying and screaming NOOOO!!! WAAAA!! - like it would be a crime to actually have an all new TRIPLE A MMO TITLE made today that gave us what pre-Trammel Ultima Online offered back in the day. It's like they just want yet another Rift, World of Warcraft, or other overly simple, overly streamlined for the masses mmo. Because the 500 of those now isn't enough. This is what baffles me even more. And if you don't believe what I say in this paragraph just take a look at the few threads where someone 'hoped' Everquest Next would offer some level of challenging PvP in the EQ Next forums.
Anyhow, just my two copper.
- Zaxx
Only interested in purist form so i play DayZ.
Ive played 11years ago Asherons call 2 Darktide and had awesome time we had griefers but they where delt with swiftly by ANTI clans hunt down the evil ones.
I played Darkfall1 2.5 years was also great for while but was already to much infected with whiners and cheaters/hackers/exploiters i quit eventually it was one big macro game whole clans macro in there towns no fun anymore.
DayZ on the other hand have no numbers stats skills lvls xp your just dropped in the game on the beach with NOTHING(i play on hardcore server) and you have to try survive. Scaviging towns for food/water/medicine and weapons to survive.
What game give FREE FOR ALL FULL LOOT PERMADEATH where you been dropped in the game hoping to find a axe/crowbar or machete to survive zombies and players.
DayZ also have its bad apples like hackers but lately there not so rampart and massive as 6 months ago servers are rather good now.
Griefers also but its harsly met with own death and lose all so most who cant take it eather leave or try adept and survive.
DayZ standalone soon being released with servers that can handle 200players.
No instance no seperate zones or any loading screens.
No lvls xp stats skills or armor.
PURE SURVIVAL and its sandbox you can build alot or detroy alot it gets a rather deep crafting system also.
DayZ is HARDCORE but only free for all full loot permadeath game worth playing.
DayZ must be played on hardcore server only so no ezmode(origin) thats for the weak.
Originally posted by Divona I don't find having heart beat fast and sweat from thrill is fun, to be honest. It's just too much after come back from work. I enjoy playing game just to relax, and PvP does not give me ability to do that.
My satisfaction is from doing small things that added up to a bigger things. Collecting new costume for the character, housing items, exploring new areas, crafting items for people in need. At the end I find that I made someone else happy, instead of throw their headphone away, smashing their keyboard and start yell out at the screen like a mad sailor.
And see that's just the thing Divona. I can get that! And respect that. See, in the old school Ultima Online, you could do that. You could take the safety of town and chat with tons of other players and collect materials and be a highly respected blacksmith or tailor that many players looked for to buy their gear. Those player did the PvP battles and took the risks of dangerous dungeons for loot and paid those blacksmiths well. And those blacksmiths and tailors and carpenters in town took great pride in being able to provide other more adventure-thrill seeking players their needed supplies and gear.
There was a nice balance in old school UO. You didn't have to really risk much, but you did have to play smart and use your head. Even a smith or scroll maker could take pride in their work done and get rich with gold taking the safety of less risky professions.
I dunno, maybe I'm just too old and don't appreciate all the automation and simplicity of these newer, more popular games.
Originally posted by Divona I don't find having heart beat fast and sweat from thrill is fun, to be honest. It's just too much after come back from work. I enjoy playing game just to relax, and PvP does not give me ability to do that.
My satisfaction is from doing small things that added up to a bigger things. Collecting new costume for the character, housing items, exploring new areas, crafting items for people in need. At the end I find that I made someone else happy, instead of throw their headphone away, smashing their keyboard and start yell out at the screen like a mad sailor.
And see that's just the thing Divona. I can get that! And respect that. See, in the old school Ultima Online, you could do that. You could take the safety of town and chat with tons of other players and collect materials and be a highly respected blacksmith or tailor that many players looked for to buy their gear. Those player did the PvP battles and took the risks of dangerous dungeons for loot and paid those blacksmiths well. And those blacksmiths and tailors and carpenters in town took great pride in being able to provide other more adventure-thrill seeking players their needed supplies and gear.
There was a nice balance in old school UO. You didn't have to really risk much, but you did have to play smart and use your head. Even a smith or scroll maker could take pride in their work done and get rich with gold taking the safety of less risky professions.
I dunno, maybe I'm just too old and don't appreciate all the automation and simplicity of these newer, more popular games.
There are many (I'd say majority) of gamers who only play in very short bursts several times a week. They fire up a game and want instant fun for 20-30min.
A lot of us veteran gamers are used to deep and MMORPGs that take 100s (1000s) of hours to achieve things - we are a minority.
So nothing wrong with games that cater to a specific gamer. Many of my friends can't stand MMORPG, they dont want to spend any time to learn about class systems or skills, they get overwhelmed by hot bars, skill trees, and the idea that it takes 100s of hours to progress - they don't have the desire to devote that much time to a game.
So for them there are 100s of actions games like CoD, PS2, Defiance - designed to be played in very small time increments.
Nothing wrong with this - find a game that suits your needs.
I personally play a game depending on my mood, if I want something quick - Defiance, if I am going to spend several hours - EQ1, Rift.
open world PvP - AoC
Etc.....
There is so much choice, we are in the golden age of gaming.
But when a game is released for hardcore still majority who bought game start whining game is to hard lol.
Thats problem these days i think even most hardcore are not hardcore anymore and go with flow.
Look at Darkfall UW its a joke now compare to first 6 months of DFO 1.
I think only small fraction of players that can handle hardcore pvp.
Thats why i play DayZ its in its purists form FFA PVP FULL LOOT and permadeath.
Dayz, while certainly lacking the polish of a AAA title is a very good game, and offers HUGE risk vs reward in the fact that if you die, you must start completely over again from zero.
And with the popularity of games like Dayz, I find it fascinating that mmo games today lack so little risk vs reward or meaningful PvP. I know that so many are just trying to leech off of the success of World of Warcraft but the mmo genre has been stagnant for far too many years now with too few AAA titles with good risk vs reward implemented.
It's about time a competent and able and financially strong company takes a RISK themselves to give us a big budget old school style mmo with modern graphics. I think the reward for them could be MUCH BIGGER then many believe, especially looking at the success of very high risk vs reward pvp mods like Dayz.
Please don't anyone get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard and the World of Warcraft game. WoW was/is a brilliant game, and while it does have depth to it, it's just not the kind of depth I'm talking about or want.
Imagine a triple A mmo based on the apocalypse with zombies like Dayz. But thousands of players on a server instead of 20. Imagine groups of people trying to survive and perhaps a deep crafting system and PvP skill required. An mmo like that with the polish of a game like Guild Wars 2 but meaningful PvP and deep risk vs reward mechanics would likely succeed though the roof!
- So where is, and who is the company willing to stop making clones of WoW and take a RISK at something new in the mmo genre today?
Originally posted by Divona I don't find having heart beat fast and sweat from thrill is fun, to be honest. It's just too much after come back from work. I enjoy playing game just to relax, and PvP does not give me ability to do that.
My satisfaction is from doing small things that added up to a bigger things. Collecting new costume for the character, housing items, exploring new areas, crafting items for people in need. At the end I find that I made someone else happy, instead of throw their headphone away, smashing their keyboard and start yell out at the screen like a mad sailor.
And see that's just the thing Divona. I can get that! And respect that. See, in the old school Ultima Online, you could do that. You could take the safety of town and chat with tons of other players and collect materials and be a highly respected blacksmith or tailor that many players looked for to buy their gear. Those player did the PvP battles and took the risks of dangerous dungeons for loot and paid those blacksmiths well. And those blacksmiths and tailors and carpenters in town took great pride in being able to provide other more adventure-thrill seeking players their needed supplies and gear.
There was a nice balance in old school UO. You didn't have to really risk much, but you did have to play smart and use your head. Even a smith or scroll maker could take pride in their work done and get rich with gold taking the safety of less risky professions.
I dunno, maybe I'm just too old and don't appreciate all the automation and simplicity of these newer, more popular games.
- Zaxx
DayZ pure thrill hardcore pvp
TRY IT!
That game died for a reason
Died?
Im playing on server EVERYDAY and its packed and in my server list i see also other servers packed even some have 70/70.
Hundreds(maybe thousend servers) of servers still up everyday.
So in comparison, where does any self satisfaction come from in these way too easy, never lose anything mmo games?
- Zaxx
When pursuing the LK server first (pre-nerf), the raid probably wiped 30 or 40 times. You don't even want to know how many wipes were involved in the hardmode LK.
Each wipe involves substantial reset, re-consume, and buff time, and considerable keep-the-spirits-up temper control of the various raiders. Keeping a raid motivated though several nights of wipes is a non-trivial problem.
Plenty of reasons for cheers to break out on vent when we finally got it.
There's lots of ways to find challenge in any system, if challenge is what you actually seek, and if you look for it.
Yes, there are considerable numbers of players who aren't Type-As, and don't simply do not value the same things you do. But without the lower 98%, the two-percenters wouldn't have anyone to look down on, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Hey, I dig some research on penalty and found a good article about this on this site from 2009:
"You're basically talking about death penalties from PvP, and things like that just encourage gank squads. I'd rather not be forced to group up with a bunch kids or jerks in a game. If you're going to claim losing gear is realistic or that it gives death a meaning, well then why don't you ask for death to be permanent. Now that's a death penalty I'd advocate for, because then people will start showing a little more respect and manners to people, and not hide behind anonymity so much. If there isn't permanent death, then there might as well be no death penalty, because they just aren't fun any other way."
"The harsher death penalties can be gotten around by resourceful players, [...] and so it can be argued that the mechanic really only tends to penalize those who aren’t as resourceful. When you’re a developer chasing customers who have potentially never touched an MMOG before, that is indeed “bad for business” [...]"
My thought is that to be resourceful, you will require to spend time to collect such resources, and most game does not make collect those resources fun enough for newcomer to continue playing the game past the point of collecting the resources. I feel the same pain from mining and scavenging in EVE Online and Darkfall, so I can have the tools to get to the fun part.
However, I find collecting resources fun when I have a whole group doing it with. Maybe the problem is not just lying in penalty, but because the player now are less social to make an effort to join group and go through these grind together, which made the company make the game which no penalty, solo-able, to catering to the messes instead.
Also, you should check out the comments in that thread. That should add in quite a lot to this thread about what people already been saying on this topic.
Originally posted by zaxtor99 Originally posted by Axehilt The win isn't automatic -- you need to be skilled to beat a challenge. The win isn't instant -- you need to be skilled for a duration
Really? You need to be SKILLED huh?
...Let's not mistake "skill" for having good enough GEAR and mashing the same one or to hot bar spells/attacks over and over and over. (Which defines most mmos today)
- Zaxx
How is this different from how MMORPGs have always been? Overcoming a horrible UI isn't skill. Having patience isn't skill either. MMORPGs have never taken skill. They take varying degrees of patience depending on which one you're playing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Comments
Really? You need to be SKILLED huh?
...Let's not mistake "skill" for having good enough GEAR and mashing the same one or to hot bar spells/attacks over and over and over. (Which defines most mmos today)
- Zaxx
ffa pvp games often require a time investment which i simply don't have the capacity to make. moreover i don't often play games, or even watch movies, which require a vast amount of thought. i enjoy the complexities of making builds in gw2 and rift, but that's about it. i have other things to bust my brain over. these days if i want to do some thinking in a game i play one of the total war games.
so what do i get out of these games? well... y'know. fun.
From the sound of it, this is more like the thrill of playing a slot machine, or any type of gamble. Instead of people spend real money, they trade it off with time.
It's come down to that by trading this time gathering small rewards to trade it off with bigger reward if success, and lose it if fail has it down side with collecting enough small rewards itself just mind numbing boring. The only people who would go through that again and again just to reach the high point of risk are just the thrill addicted who willing to grind just to get there.
Some has little time to go through that part, hint F2P where player spent real money they've earn to skip the bit just to get to the thrill faster. When they have acquire the best possible reward, there is nothing else for them, and they move on.
This is one of the reason why we're having a F2P revolution at the moment, and the reason with the "Insta-Win" so player can spent lots of real money in a short period of time, until the next expansion releases for players to spent more money in. People are getting self satisfaction from buying virtual goods, while some earn that virtual goods by spent their time farming them. F2P is covering both type of players. With subscription based, if player has to pay monthly as well as spend time just to get the rewards, it put some people off because they don't want to spend money and know they will not get reward by not spend enough time in it. It just too much risk, where they can spend that money on food or other thing they can get right away in real life.
F2P: Whale hunting. Let the bait out in the open and hope that from amount of players biting on the bait, there will be a whale who jump in and spent lots and lots of money on items at once.
Subscription based: Balancing between risk and rewards. If risk is too high than reward, player will quit. If rewards is higher than risk... Well, people like when rewards is higher than risk, but they will move on when there is no more rewards to gain.
You are so wrong about him being in the minority which enjoys "gambling-based" games. You're also really pushing it by saying that managing risks = gambling, managing risks involves a great deal of experience AND skills in a lot of modern games. In managing your risks you usually need to minimize them by making the best decisions possibles with the available information.
Just look at RTS's and MOBA these days. Take LoL, SC2 and Dota for instance. These games' player bases are much larger than the current MMO scene, everywhere in the world atm. You certainly can't call it a minority. And a big part of what makes these games so exciting to play and watch ? The risks involved in the decision making processes that you go through in a game.
For instance, most every move in starcraft 2 involves a certain amount of risk which you need to manage using your experience and "skills" which makes this game so exciting to play and watch. The "reward" is usually a certain gain of points (ladder/MMR) and the obvious feeling of a victory. If you poorly manage your risks, you lose. Losing sucks. Sucks much more than having to walk 30 seconds back to your encounter without feeling any penalties whatsoever. The same applies to LoL and many other games out there. Taking risks in a game IS exciting for A LOT of people.
That isn't SKILL. When I say skill, I mean your skill as a player, not a characters blacksmith skill or their sorcery skill, lol.
Mindlessly mashing the same two hot bars while eating a greasy fast food burger might be fun, I dunno, but it's not "skill". Not to mention most of these mmo games today require almost zero thought process. Before you get upset, think about it. Most mmo games today show you a COLOR CODE of the danger to your character a mobs presents. You know you will always own yellow and blue and green colored mobs and you just mindless attack those mobs until they are all dead. Oh wait, you do gotta watch your power bar or your stamina and stop and rest for 5 seconds sometimes. Wow. Deep skills and insane thought required. LoL.
When I say SKILL... watch the linked YouTube video I found of a player playing Asheron's Call a couple of months ago. Watch not only his precision timed fingers movements over many keys, but also his ability to dodge out of the way of bolt spells cast at him. He has to pay careful attention to many things at once on the screen, time his attacks correctly, and think ahead of his opponent to win. It's not just mashing hot bar keys over and over and over while eating chips and his gear stats vs his opponents gear stats. With skill, he could take out a MUCH higher level character with much better gear if he can out think, out wit, and out maneuver him.
This is an mmo where actual SKILL and THOUGHT is required.
If you watched that video, I think you MIGHT see the difference between that and a game like WoW or Rift. If you can't see the difference and want to continue to argue how games like WOW require soooo much skill, then there is really nothing further I can say.
- Zaxx
LOL. People bet tons of money on chicken fights and gamble billions on lotteries as well. I suppose you think that requires skill too?
If you're going to make a point, at least think for 5 seconds before you say it. I've played World of Warcraft. There is almost ZERO risk and almost ZERO skill required, yes I stand firm in my belief in that. Now have you played PvP on the Darktide server of Asheron's Call? If not, I suggest you go try your hands at it, then come back and tell me again how much risk and skill World of Warcraft requires.
- Zaxx
Games are made for fun. For people who don't have time to get their self-satisfaction from games, because they are busy getting their real self-satisfaction from real life - jobs, relationships, housing, even.
They (or, rather, we) want from game fun and fun only, and, having self-satisfaction and meaningful experience from real life, have no need to sublimate it with games.
Sure it does. There likely is a great deal of skill in determining which chicken is strongest or fastest based on observed physical characteristics and stats.
And a lottery is not in the same category, don't be silly.
There is not a lot of risk, but once again, that doesn't mean there isn't skill.
There is a great deal of skill involved in it actually. There is probably more theory crafting in wow for enchantments/gearscore/gems/ and whatever else is invovled than in probably any other MMO on the market. Especially for pvp. Yes you can go about and just stroll through if you want. You can do that with Chess too. And chess doesn't have any risk either.
and once again the pvp is an actual esport.
I stand firm in my belief that you really don't know what you are talking about and are just looking for ways to hate on modern games.
I can absolutely understand and respect that. Everyone has their own opinions on what is fun to them and everyone is different. But if you've never played a game like what I speak of, then my only point is that you've missed out on something truly great. Granted you might not like it as well, but then again, if you have idea what I speak of or where I am coming from, then you really wouldn't know... would you?
Don't make the mistake of assuming I don't have a job, a family, kids, or a life. I do. I just prefer much more DEPTH in the games I play, surely you can understand that much. To me, its like the the mmo games today are "Go Fish" in the card game world. I prefer Poker. I don't mean the gambling in poker, I mean the depth of the card game it self. Go fish can be fun, especially if you play with friends, kids or whatever. But Poker to me is a lot more fun.
- Zaxx
Depth is about meaningfull decisions. Games today have about as much depth as games of old, some have more, some have less. This hasn't really changed. Some like AC (going by you) and I"m told UO had a great deal of meaningfull decisions. Some like EQ had very very few meaningfull decisons and therefore depth.
Yes I'm saying EQ was not a deep game in terms of decisions. You can argue it had meaning all you want but depth is defined as meaningfull decisions and EQ did not have a lot of that, gameplay was auto-attack and 2-3 buttons for melee and 8 buttons for casters with a bit of knowledge needed on pulling and crowd control. Yes it was harder to level, and took longer to level but that doesn't make it deep.
I agree with you about GAMES today have a lot of depth. Absolutely.
Games like Neverwinter Nights (the rpg not the upcoming mmo), Starcraft 2, Demons Souls, Company of Heroes, and many many more have fascinating depth.
Most MMOs today have very little actual depth. Unless you think that spamming hot keys until you get the best gear in the game "depth". I certainly do not.
I guess we should just agree to disagree.
- Zaxx
Only interested in purist form so i play DayZ.
Ive played 11years ago Asherons call 2 Darktide and had awesome time we had griefers but they where delt with swiftly by ANTI clans hunt down the evil ones.
I played Darkfall1 2.5 years was also great for while but was already to much infected with whiners and cheaters/hackers/exploiters i quit eventually it was one big macro game whole clans macro in there towns no fun anymore.
DayZ on the other hand have no numbers stats skills lvls xp your just dropped in the game on the beach with NOTHING(i play on hardcore server) and you have to try survive. Scaviging towns for food/water/medicine and weapons to survive.
What game give FREE FOR ALL FULL LOOT PERMADEATH where you been dropped in the game hoping to find a axe/crowbar or machete to survive zombies and players.
DayZ also have its bad apples like hackers but lately there not so rampart and massive as 6 months ago servers are rather good now.
Griefers also but its harsly met with own death and lose all so most who cant take it eather leave or try adept and survive.
DayZ standalone soon being released with servers that can handle 200players.
No instance no seperate zones or any loading screens.
No lvls xp stats skills or armor.
PURE SURVIVAL and its sandbox you can build alot or detroy alot it gets a rather deep crafting system also.
DayZ is HARDCORE but only free for all full loot permadeath game worth playing.
DayZ must be played on hardcore server only so no ezmode(origin) thats for the weak.
DayZ pure thrill hardcore pvp
TRY IT!
That game died for a reason
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
But when a game is released for hardcore still majority who bought game start whining game is to hard lol.
Thats problem these days i think even most hardcore are not hardcore anymore and go with flow.
Look at Darkfall UW its a joke now compare to first 6 months of DFO 1.
I think only small fraction of players that can handle hardcore pvp.
Thats why i play DayZ its in its purists form FFA PVP FULL LOOT and permadeath.
Absolutely agree Groovyflower.
Dayz, while certainly lacking the polish of a AAA title is a very good game, and offers HUGE risk vs reward in the fact that if you die, you must start completely over again from zero.
And with the popularity of games like Dayz, I find it fascinating that mmo games today lack so little risk vs reward or meaningful PvP. I know that so many are just trying to leech off of the success of World of Warcraft but the mmo genre has been stagnant for far too many years now with too few AAA titles with good risk vs reward implemented.
It's about time a competent and able and financially strong company takes a RISK themselves to give us a big budget old school style mmo with modern graphics. I think the reward for them could be MUCH BIGGER then many believe, especially looking at the success of very high risk vs reward pvp mods like Dayz.
Please don't anyone get me wrong. I have a lot of respect for Blizzard and the World of Warcraft game. WoW was/is a brilliant game, and while it does have depth to it, it's just not the kind of depth I'm talking about or want.
Imagine a triple A mmo based on the apocalypse with zombies like Dayz. But thousands of players on a server instead of 20. Imagine groups of people trying to survive and perhaps a deep crafting system and PvP skill required. An mmo like that with the polish of a game like Guild Wars 2 but meaningful PvP and deep risk vs reward mechanics would likely succeed though the roof!
- So where is, and who is the company willing to stop making clones of WoW and take a RISK at something new in the mmo genre today?
- Zaxx
HaHaHaHa.
Dayz is dead? You SURE about that?
Wait until the stand-alone Dayz launches before you speak such foolish words my friend.
Dayz is FAR from dead.
- Zaxx
Died?
Im playing on server EVERYDAY and its packed and in my server list i see also other servers packed even some have 70/70.
Hundreds(maybe thousend servers) of servers still up everyday.
1.7 million bought ARMA2 only for DayZ.
Its ALIVE and kicking my friend.
When pursuing the LK server first (pre-nerf), the raid probably wiped 30 or 40 times. You don't even want to know how many wipes were involved in the hardmode LK.
Each wipe involves substantial reset, re-consume, and buff time, and considerable keep-the-spirits-up temper control of the various raiders. Keeping a raid motivated though several nights of wipes is a non-trivial problem.
Plenty of reasons for cheers to break out on vent when we finally got it.
There's lots of ways to find challenge in any system, if challenge is what you actually seek, and if you look for it.
Yes, there are considerable numbers of players who aren't Type-As, and don't simply do not value the same things you do. But without the lower 98%, the two-percenters wouldn't have anyone to look down on, right?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Hey, I dig some research on penalty and found a good article about this on this site from 2009:
"You're basically talking about death penalties from PvP, and things like that just encourage gank squads. I'd rather not be forced to group up with a bunch kids or jerks in a game. If you're going to claim losing gear is realistic or that it gives death a meaning, well then why don't you ask for death to be permanent. Now that's a death penalty I'd advocate for, because then people will start showing a little more respect and manners to people, and not hide behind anonymity so much. If there isn't permanent death, then there might as well be no death penalty, because they just aren't fun any other way."
"The harsher death penalties can be gotten around by resourceful players, [...] and so it can be argued that the mechanic really only tends to penalize those who aren’t as resourceful. When you’re a developer chasing customers who have potentially never touched an MMOG before, that is indeed “bad for business” [...]"
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/102009/4951_Community-Spotlight-The-Decline-of-the-Death-Penalty
My thought is that to be resourceful, you will require to spend time to collect such resources, and most game does not make collect those resources fun enough for newcomer to continue playing the game past the point of collecting the resources. I feel the same pain from mining and scavenging in EVE Online and Darkfall, so I can have the tools to get to the fun part.
However, I find collecting resources fun when I have a whole group doing it with. Maybe the problem is not just lying in penalty, but because the player now are less social to make an effort to join group and go through these grind together, which made the company make the game which no penalty, solo-able, to catering to the messes instead.
Also, you should check out the comments in that thread. That should add in quite a lot to this thread about what people already been saying on this topic.
Really? You need to be SKILLED huh?
...Let's not mistake "skill" for having good enough GEAR and mashing the same one or to hot bar spells/attacks over and over and over. (Which defines most mmos today)
- Zaxx
How is this different from how MMORPGs have always been? Overcoming a horrible UI isn't skill. Having patience isn't skill either. MMORPGs have never taken skill. They take varying degrees of patience depending on which one you're playing.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.