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Most underestimated design issue : Mob AI
Lord.Bachus
Member RarePosts: 9,686
in some games they just stand there to be slaughtered, in some games they are nicely scripted but without any diversion..
Which MMO has the best mob AI ?
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Comments
Depends on how you define "best". Hardest? Least predictable? Most fun to fight? Most alive-looking when simply watching it go about it's business in the world?
There aren't any MMO's, at least not major ones, with good mob AI. I don't know why, maybe its too hard to program or players just don't care that much about it. But all mobs in all MMO's are either dumb or scripted (or both), none actually react or vary their approach based on the circumstances.
The only mobs that are challenging in MMO's are those that have huge advantages over the player (10 trillion HP, infinite mana, abilities more powerful than anything a player has). Any mobs without these things are completely trivial.
Dont think you could ever have AI with Mobs/Rats purely because by having this then surely they would just run wild, so will always need constraints
I would point back to my fav Eve - Their Sleepers and even belt rats nowadays no longer focus on just the first ship/most dps, but will switch targets depending on what they see,
Sleepers are consistantly pain in the ass, whilst yes stil easily killable, having the ability to switch targets / change resists and repping each other, they have an AI like few others in game..
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
City of heroes. NPCs walking around town telling tales of my heroics. That's whats important!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
See the funny thing is, we humans have the ability to learn. AI, isn't quite there yet (at least not to human levels) and video game AI is REALLY not there yet.
Even when you take PvP into consideration, the human mind will dissect it into a series of branching actions and it mostly becomes scripted with only moments of variation.
If you have a long stun and a short stun, and your opponent has an ability that breaks stuns on a cooldown, you can reasonably expect them to use it as soon as they're stunned. So you throw out the short stun, and they pop their long CD only to have you bust out the long stun.
This scenario continues for each action and reaction. PvP is rarely 100% random and adaptive. Good PvPers have studied each class, know the counters and feints to each action and play through that formula. This is why boxed in Arena style pvp can be played at a much higher level. There's many more abilities to keep track of, and a much larger number of possible reaction to any given set of actions.
1v1 being the simplest and most obvious set of actions a person can take. The other person is likely to have a certain number of abilities, if you've done your homework you know what those abilities are and what order they are likely to be used in and how long they last. So you each have an idea of how everything will go. Then it's up to messing with that timing and knowledge in order to force a mistake.
Eventually, the new tricks (assuming they work) become commonplace and part of the script for most fights, so people adapt to them.
So what can you really expect out of AI? The best they can do is give the script a few more options to go through, but it'll never be complex enough - you kill a few mobs with that AI and your human brain will have learned and adapted to it.
If I do X, the mob will do Y, so I will counter with Z.
If AI ever gets to the point where it can outsmart us humans, then we'll run into the opposite problem . . .how do we win? Your normal chess player cannot beat a grandmaster level chess program. So if the mob is too clever then we can never win again, anything less and we will figure out the pattern and it eventually becomes routine.
The issue rather lies with a game's overall design and conception. In most themepark games a smart AI would just be overkill as most of these games are build around questing. Kill mobs for various collectables or to increase kill counts. To offer the same gaming experience the mobs will respawn after a specified time. In order to make the mobs somewhat predictable there will be some form of aggro mechancs implemented. That way players won't end be surprised that easily.
A good programmer would rather see it as a decent challenge to try implementing a more natural form of NPCs/opponents. But it doesn't fit into a standard themepark.
You might be interested in this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatures_(artificial_life_program)
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
That is interesting, but AI in a broad sense isn't quite the same as AI on an individual mob level. And while dedicated AI programs are making great strides (even though that's an older game), using a system like that within a great system like a MMO which is already heavy on resources is another obstacle.
I remember playing Black and White which was along the similar lines, but again repetitive learning and evolution would be really slow AI to encounter.
Devs could theoretically script it. if 1000 Centaurs have been killed, then centaurs will now spawn with breatplate armor.
If 1000 centaurs wearing breastplate armor have been killed, they gain a new defensive ability!
And so on. It wouldn't be true AI, but I guess the effect would be similar to that broad "learning" type of AI.
But I don't think it's the AI most people are thinking of. Most people talk about AI like each mob is going to react in real time to your actions in clever ways. People who plays FPS games think it's awesome when enemies use cover intelligently instead of just standing there to get shot.
What can we realistically expect from mobs? What would you want them to do? You approach a mob who recognizes you are much more powerful . . . so it runs away and barricades a door. Maybe that's too smart. Cause then you don't get to play.
Or a mob is setting a trap for you and when you come near you get caught in a net and 10 of its friends jump out and stab you dead! Again, a little too smart.
But let's ignore that and go back to group AI / evolution. The idea being that mobs don't just stand around to be killed. The centaur tribe goes about it's business of everyday life and for some reason attacks nearby settlements. You and hundreds of other eager adventurers charge in and slaughter them all looking for experience and loot. So do the new Centaurs have adapted AI or do they start from scratch? If they have adapted, what's to say that they learned that raiding settlements gets them killed? Now you have peaceful centaurs who grow corn. And then everyone runs in and slaughters them.
So they become violent and lash out at anyone in their territory. And everyone runs in and slaughters them. The game would have to be designed to provide essentially no value to killing mobs. At what point does the AI "cheat" and simply give itself more HP and damage?
It's a very deep rabbit hole and I can't blame developers for not going down it, it gets messy very quickly.
It sucks that someone had to come out and say the obvious.
Personally I don't think players would be happy with appropriately smart UI. Ex: When a US embassy would go into security mode, everyone would go to their assigned spot (usually their office unless you are security). When you get to your spot, you see if anyone in your area is there is who not supposed to be there. If there is, you notify security. Running around the building will only demonstrate you are not supposed to be there. Imagine NPCS in a fort upon detecting a PC going into lockdown and making a focused effort to attack them. Even diversionary ploys won't help if you understand what I am writing.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
You're over thinking it. Mob AI is the way it is because most players prefer it that way in the games they are playing with the goals they are working toward. If the average mob was like an EVE Sleeper or a TERA BAM, most players would find leveling a pain in the ass. It's not that it can't be done - it's doesn't fit the design of most modern MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
WG4: The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun
( old pencil and paper D&D module I'm rather nostalgic about ... when the party attempts to enter the dungeon, the first encounter triggers every single monster in the upper dungeons to come running to the entrance to make one big coordinated stand )
WoW has the best mob AI .. back in WOTLK, tier-9, there is an encounter called Faction Champion.
The mobs behaves as players. They don't use an aggro table (and can go attack mage/healer first), they use class abilities, they heal, ....
What happened? Players complained it is too hard, and it was nerfed, and never done again.
G1: Hill Giants can have alarm raised as well. Other modules as well. It is obvious to point out that you have a DM who can be nice or not about that situation. He can change it on the fly. Much harder to do in a game. DERP.
In any case, I don't think today's player would like it. DO you think they would or not?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Exactly.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
As with all things, some will like it, some will not. I haven't been trying every new game that comes out lately so I worry I may be missing new things that are out there, but the games I have played have lots of room left for more "group-level" intelligence.
Also, I don't think the goal of an AI should always be to increase the difficulty. Like art, sometimes its there just to add texture.
I'm not convinced it has to. Nature is full of simple clusters of reflexes that produce "intellgent" responses to stimuli.
Offcourse MMOs dont have real AI when people talk about AI in an MMO they talk about mob behaviour.
In a non combat situation there might be NPCs cooking, talking dancing patrolling and having conversations that you can listen in on. I consider this advanced NPC behaviour actually neededt to make the world alive.
no, i am allways wondered why ennemie NPCs allways directly attack instead of talking firts, screaming at me telling me to leave, or just telling me to pay the zoll for trespassing or turning straight back.
And yes i know all mobs in combat are scripted, but why do they allways repeat the same sequence, to make combat more interesting they could add some randomness to it. That would make things much more dynamic.
Now i know its hard to make fights challenging, because you need to give the player characters the feel that they are strong and special, so you cant have them reach the brink of death every fight, but what you need to do is make the whole system so that if they make wrong decisions a lot of stuff might for example add to the fight turning roles and make the player hunter the hunted.
and what about mobs on a lash, and all having the same detection cycle. I think they should change that, there could be mobs that attack you when in line of sight, and other mobs might attck while to close. Or just move out of your way when to close, while other mobs patrol areas with the single goal to hunt things and or players.
and what when you are hunted down by a stream of angry. orcs, when will they stop hunting you, when they reach a certain point, when the distance between you and the mobs gets to big, when they find another ennemie? Bring back diversity, remove a lot of the leashes, and let mobs that have been training you but lost or killed you wreack havock on the way back instead of just running back to their place of orrigin.
also there are annimals like bears that slowly move alone, while other annimals like wolves move around sneaky and in packs.
there can be done a lot to spice up the world, sadly still many mmos think its enough to place NPC ennemies at strategical points and keep them there
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
To me the best boss AI is that which there really is no script. They have abilities (the most powerful has a cool down) but what they do is based on a RNG. Sometimes the boss might be a bit easy and other times they will stack a couple hard to counter abilities together and send you to a early grave.
The concept worked well in DAoC were both mobs and player abilities were the product of a normal weapon cycle and not instant on key press.
To me if you can write an add on a predict within a few seconds what the boss is going to do (AKA WoW) it is no longer interesting... beating a encounter like that proves only two things... you have time to figure out the cycle and the gear to make up for the minor mistakes.
Also, the most important thing you are all forgetting with AI in MMOs is the internet.
Things like AI have to be calculated server side and then sent to the player because any game function that is calculated client side can(and will) be hacked.
The amount and complexity of game functions that have to be sent to the players impacts the game's servers in a exponential way.
You have to remember that its not just you and your party that the game would be calculating the AI for, the game has to calculate AI for all players.
If you have 100,000 people playing the game and each player is observing 10 mobs then the game has to calculate the AI for 1 million mobs.
So, still think AI doesnt take an incredible amount of processing power?
I think you underestimate my understanding of computational complexity.
For me, a combination of Ryzom's and DF's would be nearly perfect.
Ryzom has great fauna "AI". Herding, migration, protecting each other, one group hunting another, etc.
DF had mobs that wouldn't wait for you to get within a small agro circle before attacking. If you were in LOS, you were getting attacked. They also didn't just stand there getting hit. They'd dodge and block. They'd run for backup. It made the mobs much more challenging and fun.
Current: None
Played: WoW, CoX, SWG, LotRO, EVE, AoC, VG, CO, Ryzom, DF, WAR
Tried: Lineage2, Dofus, EQ2, CoS, FE, UO, Wurm, Wakfu
Future: The Repopulation, ArcheAge, Black Desert, EQN