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making combat fun in MMOs
nariusseldon
Member EpicPosts: 27,775
Most MMOs are combat focused, and you are asked to kill lots and lots of stuff. Whether it is farming for gold/gear, or levels, or kill for quests, millions of mobs will die before you reach max level.
Since this is a huge part of the game, it should be fun. In fact, combat is so fun in games like the Diablo series that people will spend hundred of hours "grinding" the same randomized dungeons. Here is what i found how combat can be fun for me.
1) Large groups - don't just fight single mobs, or a small group. In many MMO, the most you will fight is a group of 3. That limits the amount of tactical considerations, and the feeling of power. Have 20 mob rushes you. Let players mow down 20 with a powerful spell.
2) Have variety in the level of challenge - Challenge is the hardest to tune. Many complains about MMOs combat being too easy. Some complain too hard (on official forums). What i found is this ... if there is no challenge, it will be boring. However, it is very frustrating if every mob you fight is a challenge. The key is variety, and Diablo 3 has done this very well. You will be mowing down 20 mobs in a second (and you feel powerful), but can die the next min when a champ or elite group shows up. Even within the elites, the challenge level varies a great deal. If you are "unlucky" and meet elites with the wrong affixes, you can die instantly, or it can take a while to kill them.
3) Have variety in HOW the challenge comes about ... and more importantly in combination. The different abilities of mobs in D3 is a good example. It may be challenging because they cc you .. it may be challenign because they reflect you damage, it may be challenging because they put nasty stuff on the ground .. each takes a different way to deal with (and can be in combo). Each the normal mobs can be challenging when in mass. Example, one type will blow themselves up around you. With a few, they are easy because they die fast from range attack, but if enough rush you, some *may* get through. This is particularly true if other mobs are blocking you so you can't run.
4) Have an interesting meta game ... in having a deep system of builds and gear. For example, some gear may be better counter to some mob abilities, and forces the player to choose to specialize vs being general. Have gear/build synergy (easier way to do it, put skill bonus on gear).
I think MMOs can use more of these ideas. No MMOs i have played (except may be Marvel Heroes, which arguably may not even be a MMO) have done well in letting you fight lots of mobs.
Comments
There is no lack of ideas. Developers have books filled up with features that are both new and dynamic. Due to several reasons 99% of them just get ignored:
- Technical limitations: Having 30 NPCs attack you means that the hardware (client and server) is under more stress. For the sake of players with low end PCs or bad internet connection speeds/latency the combat is kept simple and static.
- Player skill limitations: Most players suck. How do you make content for players with 0 skill? If you want players to play your game you will have to keep it simple and easy.
- Risk reduction: To get a budget for their game developers must convince the investors that their business model is good. Creating something risky will not get any funding.
- Player expectations: Players nowadays expect to win 100% of the time. The combat setup hardly matters. Its all about the reward. Making combat hard or challenging will alienate more players than you think.
- Development constraints: Good graphics and sound takes time to make. Every detail, item, model, landscape and effect must be created by someone. If you have a small budget you have to rehash models and keep it simple. The developers do not have the time to develop complex systems. Testing and fixing just takes too long. Noone is willing to wait 10 years for a game. Noone will fund it. So to release on time you develop simple things.
--> Making easy and simple combat combined with ever increasing rewards (even though there is no chance to fail) has become the main principle of most MMOs. Complexity is being frowned upon.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
You are absolutely right, but its a very detailed part of the game that basically all MMO developers manage to screw up in some way. The only ones to have got it right in my experience are the developers of WOW and EVE.
Combat is more important than anything in MMOs, because, as you say, you do it more than anything else - by a country mile. Therefore, it needs to be fun in of itself. The thing you are controlling in the game needs to be incredibly responsive. The sounds need to be perfect to give oomph when you execute or get hit by an ability. The graphics need to match up visually with what abilities you are executing. The delay between pressing a button and the action occurring needs to be as small as is possible. There needs to be variety, and there needs to be a learning curve and a prospect for improvement and skilled play. You need to almost feel you are your avatar.
Most developers get something in that incomplete list horribly wrong. In my experience, it's usually the bit regarding perfect responsiveness, but in most cases there are flaws in all of these aspects. The reason WOW is an MMO monster is because they nailed all of these things. The flaws in the game are there of course, but it was built on the best foundation that you can imagine - solid enjoyable combat that doesn't get boring fast and ranks very high on all of the above.
It's the aspect all the hyped new MMOs that are all now free to play managed to screw up in some way. Warhammer, Conan, Aion, SWTOR, Darkfall etc... they are all inferior to WOW in this critical aspect and its the main reason they are all "smaller".
You keep combat interesting by making it engaging. Grinding thousands of mobs that never have any chance of killing you and all you're really doing is cutting a glorified tree down is boring.
When you have to actually react and pay attention it becomes interesting. Having skills that counter or block attacks that would otherwise really hurt or even kill you makes you more a part of what's going on. You are swinging swords at each other after all. If it's just comes up with a number and you carry on fighting, there's really no sense of danger or involvement there. It also means the play is going to die from time to time and it will actually be challenging which is why we end up with 1,2,3,4, combat instead.
You just described FFXI combat except large groups does not make combat better what so ever.
You can NEVER replace one solid Boss for 20 small meaningless mobs.Sure you might feel all powerful because you killed 20 mobs in one minute or less but truth is you are not more powerful,you just killed a pile of trash mobs.Weather you have 1 or 20 trash mobs the fight is still sort of boring.
You make combat fun just like you would ANY activity or sport,you have actions and reactions.If combat is too fast and not focused you are not reacting to anything,probably just spamming your hotbar.
Reaction is not only to the mobs either,you can react to other players,example a Ranger Sidewinder was so ridiculously powerful that players would have to wait for the Tank to have Provoke ready and or wait until the mob was 50% dead.Or yo umight react to their weapon skill to form a Renkai weapon skill combo.
I know where the Op is coming from and imo a mechanic way over played in games and that is the CC mechanic.CC does not make good combat and if it is too powerful it makes combat worse and too easy.
Even if you played the simplest sport of table tennis,your fun is reacting to your opponents hits and deciding how to hit the return shot.Adding in more balls does not make it better and the most exciting exchanges are the ones that last long,not the one hit and done shots.
Even in Baseball a pitcher and a batter are reacting to each other,a battle of the minds,it would not make it any better if the pitcher tossed 5 balls at the batter at once.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Sounds good on paper. Is horrible after you think about.
MMO's are about A LOT(players, time, numbers) and very little else. This means the player will be there for a really long time and developers want the players to be there. Essentially this means you can't have the player very taxed(at least outside of the boss battle or a mistake) or they will be exhausted of your game in short time.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I don't think either WOW nor Eve is doing it right.
Both have a lack of challenge on the pve side (and i am not talking about pvp, that is a whole different ball game). In wow, in most of the quest/farming areas, you fight one or two mobs, and they seldom have interesting abilities. This is very far from a good ARPG where 10 mobs can charge you, and another 10 fire arrows at you.
Eve has quite boring pve combat. I did the 21 days trial. You can win by simple a) get into range (that is auto .. no manual driving needed) and b) keep firing missiles.
Now WOW has some more challenging combat at end game with hard mode raids .. but again, only boss encounters, and not really the farming/grinding level type combat.
Well you are correct if the game is targeted purely at PCs but in recent years the console has been setting the norm for hardware. Especially bigger companies try to develop games for all platforms at the same time. PC owners are at a disadvantage. I am still using my 4 year old graphics card. There is no need to upgrade.
You are very optimistic. Good for you. My experience with players in nearly any genre is different. It seems to me that a lot of players just do not want to be challenged. There is a hard dungeon boss and the group wipes? Someone will leave. The group wipes again? Everyone leaves. A quest requires thinking? Oh the forums will be on fire. A lot of players nowadays want a reward for time spent in the game and not for challenges. Challenges are perceived as something blocking you from getting the reward you are entitled to. Players with such a mindset will never achieve a higher "skill level". Developers know this and must create a game that even these players can manage.
I suppose both you and I are waiting for this to happen.
So you are saying that it is the developers who are forcing easy and simple games on people? I do not think so. Players vote with their wallets. If challenging games are what players want then challenging games should be at the top of selling charts. Games like Dark Souls should be selling like crazy. Yet they are not and are called niche games. The current mechanics and difficulty of the games we are playing is something we players have wanted.
The more money involved the more need for risk reduction is needed. More money is mainly used to make better graphics, not deeper games. It seems to me that truly 'visionary' developers and publishers do not exist anymore.
I agree fully. I would love to play a Dark Souls MMO with deep mechanics, great combat and lots to explore. Unluckily it seems there are only a few who would accept such a challenge.
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Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
That is obviously not true, in terms of combat. There are plenty of progression, hard mode raiding guilds. There are 9% of HC toons on D3. Certainly different people like different levels of challenge .. hence a difficulty option like in D3 should be the norm. However, it is also wrong to say that everyone wants easy combat.
Note that i am only taking about combat challenge. Thinking quest (or puzzle in quests) is not popular because the challenge is not combat related. Most don't play MMOs for a puzzle mini-game.
All other points are spot on. The player build and combat system should be in but also the mobs themselves should be fun. Milk toast easy mobs aren't fun IMO. Having random harder mobs that look like the others and may have additional abilities is fun. I'm one of those players that like to just explore and kill mobs to xp when quests are boring. Having random hard mobs makes this more interesting.
Is your objection tech-based (i.e. you don't think computers can handle it) or fun-based (i.e. you don't think it is fun)?
Personally i think quantity is its own quality. I like the idea of many weak mobs band together, and suddenly you have to pay attention. That happens in D3 quite often. There is no reason why it cannot be done in MMOs. At least the tech is there for instances (since you can do multiple player in D3, and PoE with lots of mobs).
Yeah, i have seen that in Tera. However, 10 is still not a big enough number in my experience, to have that .. oh shit .. so man mob i have to kill .. feel.
RIP Earthshaker pulls =(
Still possible in ARPGs.