Dunno, my various gaming 'partners' and I, over the years, just joined raiding guilds and participated as a unit. Various combinations of tank+healer, lots of raiding experience; wasn't ever difficult to find raiding "jobs".
The two-player combinations that tend to work well for leveling also tend to work well in a raid. Except you want to avoid pure DPS, I think (future instances and raid runs? always plenty of DPS). Put together a reliable tank-healer team, and you won't have any trouble filling out dps spots, ever.
Doubtless this topic won't last a page without someone(s) snarling and leaping forward to defend raiding from these damn casuals. At least that's the usual result.
I imagine I'm not alone among MMO players who prefer to primarily play with a wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, sister, brother, or best gaming buddy. But there don't seem to be any MMO's that cater to the 2-Player Coop fans.
EverQuest 2 has loads of content for couples. My girlfriend and I have been playing the game off and on since beta. While the first 15 levels or so of the game is trivial for two people after that you will have a good amount of stuff open up for duos including endgame when you reach it.
On that note you really do not have to rush to level cap in EQ2 to have fun. Missing out on all the lower level dungeons and Heritage quests would have you forfeiting some of the best parts of the game. With there being so much to do it is easy to out-level content but you can turn off XP gain once you reach level 10 and get Alternate Advancement points that make your character stronger.
I imagine I'm not alone among MMO players who prefer to primarily play with a wife, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend, sister, brother, or best gaming buddy. But there don't seem to be any MMO's that cater to the 2-Player Coop fans.
Sure, in every MMO you can quest/level together with 1 other player, but as soon as you hit the level cap or reach "end-game" suddenly everything requires usually 5-20 people, both for PvE and PvP. WoW is the only game I know of that *used* to have a 2-player end-game in the form of 2v2 rated arena, but that was nerfed and broken long ago, so that now only the larger arena sizes count. And I don't know of any MMO that has had or has end-game 2 player PvE content.
This wouldn't be so bad if there were 2-player non-MMO RPG games to play, but there aren't. All the big fantasy RPG games like Skyrim, Dragonage, The Witcher, Kingdoms of Amalur, Fable, etc. are either strictly single player or only have very incomplete multiplayer.
Are there just not enough gamers who play with their significant others to matter? Or am I overlooking some game or games that have two player content at end-game? Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
Wouldn't really be an MMO if all the content was made for 2 player groups imo... ESO might be the right game for you and your gaming partner.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of 2 player content. It was the largest thing that was doable in the old games that was trashed on the altar of group monsters vs solo monsters. Nowadays you end up dumbing down the game a ton with a friend as all of the solo stuff is way too easy with a 2 player group and all the group stuff is pretty much undoable. It becomes worse when the solo content goes away in most games at endgame.
I preferred the old model where there were NOT ostensibly group monsters and solo monsters. In say the original everquest, back in the day, duos and trios were quite common. It allowed you to fight higher level blue monsters than you could solo, more efficiently. Skilled and outfitted trios could handle camps that usually required full groups. It was actually considered an achievement to handle certain camps and dungeon spawns down several members and it tended to reward you.
Dunno, my various gaming 'partners' and I, over the years, just joined raiding guilds and participated as a unit. Various combinations of tank+healer, lots of raiding experience; wasn't ever difficult to find raiding "jobs".
The two-player combinations that tend to work well for leveling also tend to work well in a raid. Except you want to avoid pure DPS, I think (future instances and raid runs? always plenty of DPS). Put together a reliable tank-healer team, and you won't have any trouble filling out dps spots, ever.
Doubtless this topic won't last a page without someone(s) snarling and leaping forward to defend raiding from these damn casuals. At least that's the usual result.
...and, ooh, surprise, I was right.
Casual raiding exists. DAoC had wonderful drop in anyone welcome raiding (the raids themselves were actually harder than WoW) the problem is people are now referring to TIERRED raiding as "end game" in the same way the word instance has replaced dungeon.
Tierred raiding is awful end game design. Good end game, like DAoC's, nothing is stopping two players from just joining in.
But MMOs are already ruined enough without taking away the last few things you actually need to be social for. Play Diablo instead.
Post requests like these are the reason MMO's being developed are choosing to cater to,,,, "casual" gamers and kids.. I just replied to a post regarding GW2 catering to casual gamers and kids with their classes having absolutely no diversity, among other issues. Everyone can do a bit of everything = bleh.. Now this post the OP wants 2 player end game content?? SMH.. Absolutely NO MMORPG's should have 2 player content unless it's grinding quests.. End game content is/was supposed to be incredibly difficult requiring a full raid and military tactics to win.. It's not meant for a duo to breeze through with one hand on the keyboard and the other eating popcorn! That's not what end game content is supposed to be! Go play this instead...
This elitist attitude is what has stagnated the industry into what it's become. The concept that a so called "end game" revolves around 50 player raids has been forcing the genre into a box that many people just don't or can't play. Telling them to go play Mario is just childish. The MMO landscape is one that is ever evolving and if you are stuck in that little box you're going to be left behind. Good end game doesn't just have to be raiding. Open world doesn't just have to mean PvP. Hardcore doesn't just mean having fast thumbs. Granted, many developers have tried to cater to the mass market. The problem is that they've just taken existing systems/mechanics and dumbed them down. Why can't there be 2-3 player raids along with the big ones? Why does everyone have to bend to your limited view of what end game should be? To say that developers shouldn't try to design new forms of gameplay is narrow and selfish.
Originally posted by george99 Good post. I play mostly with my son and we typically move on to new games once we reach the end of the leveling spectrum on whatever game we are playing just because we suddenly don't want to be forced to play large group content. Anyone know of a game where the end game has options for small group dungeons or other activities that are more duo oriented? I'm not talking about playing way over the dungeon level and being able to duo it
Guild Wars 2 offers alot after reaching lvlcap and with alot downscaled you can have alot fun for years to come in Guild Wars 2.
GuildWars 2 have no end game it brilliantly implement downscaling when go to earlyer areas this way you can explore whole tiria world not concerning overpowered as lvl80 killing lvl10 mobs/bosses.
Unless your so obessed with group content must also be solo or 2player content the prolly you should play co-op games or games that offers multi player gameplay that easly work well for 2 players.
Originally posted by Ralstlin Because they are called MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER rol playing games, if you want a 2 person games, go for coop games.
What is the minimum number of people you feel that a person should be allowed to enter a bar, club or concert with?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Ralstlin Because they are called MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER rol playing games, if you want a 2 person games, go for coop games.
What is the minimum number of people you feel that a person should be allowed to enter a bar, club or concert with?
OP said END game content... entering a Bar isn't END game.... Leaving it with others to continue the Party is only the beginning of end game.
Years ago I would have said the same as others have said... it's a MMO, you don't do end game with just two.... but now I would say why not have end game for 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or 12? Variety adds value for the customer and Players ARE customers. Besides.... it's getting harder these days to find enough Players that you would WANT to do end game content with.
Depends on what kind of endgame content you want. If you want something similair to raiding and raid gear then the problem lies in that most MMO's that offers endgame raiding use a trinity system with at least 3 different roles, balancing and tuning endgame for any combination of 1-2 roles (incase of people playing the same class while duoing) creates a ton of problems.
You also need to keep in mind that there is usually full group content and if you are gonna add endgame for duoing you need endgame for a full group aswell. Resources are very limited and you have a budget for everything when shareholders want to make money, if you want to add something you usually have to detract from something else.
I also think this is a bit of a clash between genres, there is already a ton of co-op games out there, MMO's should focus on higher numbers of players interacting to use the strength of the genre which is unique for MMO's.
while id love to see more options like that and not just strictly 5 / 10 / 20 man groups, i doubt they will bother to have 2 peeps end game content. WHy?, my wild guess is that the majority prefer both group content and solo content and 2-3 coop falls in a minority.
I usually play solo if my real life friends dont play the same game im into but i do prefer large group content in mmos. But like i said, if they offer more coop / group options i will definitelly welcome them.
They should bother with 2 person (not man) content. I have 189 friends on Steam, 78 on Xfire and like 130 I think on Raptr. a few months ago I had asked them all about this exact thing in mmos, and none of them liked grouping but this one guy who loves people to give him orders. Most all of them hate grouping and just duo'd with as someone else said - boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband/son/daughter/nephew or friend. Strangers not related to anyone on my friends lists, I have met in several mmos (mostly all or at least 90% of the mmos released between Ultima Online to date) always like soloing or duoing too. People I know offline, like friends or their friends always like duoing or soloing too. It's been a question I've asked everyone I know who games and I almost always get the same answer.
These days you think they just would make it possible to solo, duo or whatever all content in a game. I don't see why it even matters anymore. By appealing to everyone and using scaling systems, they could appeal to everyone and get what they want most from the player - their money.
Comments
Because a genre already exists for that kind of thing. Diablo, Titan Quest, all that stuff.
MMOs are about massively multiplayer, they're already too solo friendly.
Why are there no MMO's with 2-Player End Game?
Dunno, my various gaming 'partners' and I, over the years, just joined raiding guilds and participated as a unit. Various combinations of tank+healer, lots of raiding experience; wasn't ever difficult to find raiding "jobs".
The two-player combinations that tend to work well for leveling also tend to work well in a raid. Except you want to avoid pure DPS, I think (future instances and raid runs? always plenty of DPS). Put together a reliable tank-healer team, and you won't have any trouble filling out dps spots, ever.
Doubtless this topic won't last a page without someone(s) snarling and leaping forward to defend raiding from these damn casuals. At least that's the usual result.
...and, ooh, surprise, I was right.
EverQuest 2 has loads of content for couples. My girlfriend and I have been playing the game off and on since beta. While the first 15 levels or so of the game is trivial for two people after that you will have a good amount of stuff open up for duos including endgame when you reach it.
On that note you really do not have to rush to level cap in EQ2 to have fun. Missing out on all the lower level dungeons and Heritage quests would have you forfeiting some of the best parts of the game. With there being so much to do it is easy to out-level content but you can turn off XP gain once you reach level 10 and get Alternate Advancement points that make your character stronger.
Wouldn't really be an MMO if all the content was made for 2 player groups imo... ESO might be the right game for you and your gaming partner.
I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of 2 player content. It was the largest thing that was doable in the old games that was trashed on the altar of group monsters vs solo monsters. Nowadays you end up dumbing down the game a ton with a friend as all of the solo stuff is way too easy with a 2 player group and all the group stuff is pretty much undoable. It becomes worse when the solo content goes away in most games at endgame.
I preferred the old model where there were NOT ostensibly group monsters and solo monsters. In say the original everquest, back in the day, duos and trios were quite common. It allowed you to fight higher level blue monsters than you could solo, more efficiently. Skilled and outfitted trios could handle camps that usually required full groups. It was actually considered an achievement to handle certain camps and dungeon spawns down several members and it tended to reward you.
Casual raiding exists. DAoC had wonderful drop in anyone welcome raiding (the raids themselves were actually harder than WoW) the problem is people are now referring to TIERRED raiding as "end game" in the same way the word instance has replaced dungeon.
Tierred raiding is awful end game design. Good end game, like DAoC's, nothing is stopping two players from just joining in.
But MMOs are already ruined enough without taking away the last few things you actually need to be social for. Play Diablo instead.
This elitist attitude is what has stagnated the industry into what it's become. The concept that a so called "end game" revolves around 50 player raids has been forcing the genre into a box that many people just don't or can't play. Telling them to go play Mario is just childish. The MMO landscape is one that is ever evolving and if you are stuck in that little box you're going to be left behind. Good end game doesn't just have to be raiding. Open world doesn't just have to mean PvP. Hardcore doesn't just mean having fast thumbs. Granted, many developers have tried to cater to the mass market. The problem is that they've just taken existing systems/mechanics and dumbed them down. Why can't there be 2-3 player raids along with the big ones? Why does everyone have to bend to your limited view of what end game should be? To say that developers shouldn't try to design new forms of gameplay is narrow and selfish.
Guild Wars 2 offers alot after reaching lvlcap and with alot downscaled you can have alot fun for years to come in Guild Wars 2.
GuildWars 2 have no end game it brilliantly implement downscaling when go to earlyer areas this way you can explore whole tiria world not concerning overpowered as lvl80 killing lvl10 mobs/bosses.
Unless your so obessed with group content must also be solo or 2player content the prolly you should play co-op games or games that offers multi player gameplay that easly work well for 2 players.
Most Hack&Slash games or closed to mmo DayZ.
As others have said, I don't think you have done your research. DCUO has specific endgame for duos.
The following games also have scaling dungeons designed for two people:
What is the minimum number of people you feel that a person should be allowed to enter a bar, club or concert with?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OP said END game content... entering a Bar isn't END game.... Leaving it with others to continue the Party is only the beginning of end game.
Years ago I would have said the same as others have said... it's a MMO, you don't do end game with just two.... but now I would say why not have end game for 2 or 4 or 6 or 8 or 12? Variety adds value for the customer and Players ARE customers. Besides.... it's getting harder these days to find enough Players that you would WANT to do end game content with.
Depends on what kind of endgame content you want. If you want something similair to raiding and raid gear then the problem lies in that most MMO's that offers endgame raiding use a trinity system with at least 3 different roles, balancing and tuning endgame for any combination of 1-2 roles (incase of people playing the same class while duoing) creates a ton of problems.
You also need to keep in mind that there is usually full group content and if you are gonna add endgame for duoing you need endgame for a full group aswell. Resources are very limited and you have a budget for everything when shareholders want to make money, if you want to add something you usually have to detract from something else.
I also think this is a bit of a clash between genres, there is already a ton of co-op games out there, MMO's should focus on higher numbers of players interacting to use the strength of the genre which is unique for MMO's.
They should bother with 2 person (not man) content. I have 189 friends on Steam, 78 on Xfire and like 130 I think on Raptr. a few months ago I had asked them all about this exact thing in mmos, and none of them liked grouping but this one guy who loves people to give him orders. Most all of them hate grouping and just duo'd with as someone else said - boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband/son/daughter/nephew or friend. Strangers not related to anyone on my friends lists, I have met in several mmos (mostly all or at least 90% of the mmos released between Ultima Online to date) always like soloing or duoing too. People I know offline, like friends or their friends always like duoing or soloing too. It's been a question I've asked everyone I know who games and I almost always get the same answer.
These days you think they just would make it possible to solo, duo or whatever all content in a game. I don't see why it even matters anymore. By appealing to everyone and using scaling systems, they could appeal to everyone and get what they want most from the player - their money.