I truly Believe that from all the games i have played the best implentation of Action Combat was made By TERA.
It was Action mostly but it was kinda hard to miss (not frastrating to hit something) and also there were some nice target lock skills. and many skills were target on the floor cyrcles which is kinda hard to miss too.. specificaly for healing. If they could manage to let the toons of being a bit less rooted that would be Amazing for any game.
for example
Darkfall was a bit too much of a FPS action...and for me it was really hard to kill any player even land a hit on them was hard...cause everyone was hardcore player and moving like crazy...i could partially aim and kill mobs though.. so for a game that is not niche as darkfall,that is EverquestNext i think Tera system is the best.
Also neverwinter system is a bit like tera but its very restrictive on spells/skills.you cannot have everything you might like..
and guild wars was a hybrid that tend more to the old alt tab system but with the ability to be able to move while doing anything.
but in the end of the day you couldnt avoid anything when your "dodge" button was on cd. and you couldnt kill a very hard elite by yourself although in Darkfall and Tera you could cause u had real action movement/dodge.
Also GW2 skills choise via weapons was really lame and restrictive. the GW1 was waaaay better.. you had all your skills and you could do any compinations you wanted.
Alt Tab was a forced system for mmos because of the network cap of the old days. before that our games were real time even back in the super mario days :P
People are very used now to WoW and they rather not look forward.. even WoW tends to be more fast paced and old timers WoW players complain... cause they want the old soup for ever..
I like a lot of things you are saying and I agree on the if your dodge is on CD, that was so annoying. But I don't think people are clinging to the past. They just have a system that works for them. Being able to tab target, has advantages as well. Sure it's especially nice for people who don't like twitch gaming (which should be fine, as everyone should be able to play games), it's also for people who want more of a strategic gameplay, like EQ1. After that a lot of button mashers appeared, but going back to a more strategic less button mashing system would be the best. I know Brad McQuaid wanted to do that with VG, but that went wrong for multiple reasons, one being slow combat in beta 2, but a lot of players really liked it.
You don't need one or the other, you need both. I see people really enjoying the Darkfall system, Tera system, even people like the GW2 system. But we also have people who still enjoy the classic EQ system, the WoW system, newer games as well. They have the chance to go to tera or another action based game, but they don't want to.
Are they wrong, maybe.
Should they try action based gaming, probably, most are F2P anyway,
Will they like it better than tab targetting, some might, but not everyone.
I truly Believe that from all the games i have played the best implentation of Action Combat was made By TERA.
It was Action mostly but it was kinda hard to miss (not frastrating to hit something) and also there were some nice target lock skills. and many skills were target on the floor cyrcles which is kinda hard to miss too.. specificaly for healing. If they could manage to let the toons of being a bit less rooted that would be Amazing for any game.
for example
Darkfall was a bit too much of a FPS action...and for me it was really hard to kill any player even land a hit on them was hard...cause everyone was hardcore player and moving like crazy...i could partially aim and kill mobs though.. so for a game that is not niche as darkfall,that is EverquestNext i think Tera system is the best.
Also neverwinter system is a bit like tera but its very restrictive on spells/skills.you cannot have everything you might like..
and guild wars was a hybrid that tend more to the old alt tab system but with the ability to be able to move while doing anything.
but in the end of the day you couldnt avoid anything when your "dodge" button was on cd. and you couldnt kill a very hard elite by yourself although in Darkfall and Tera you could cause u had real action movement/dodge.
Also GW2 skills choise via weapons was really lame and restrictive. the GW1 was waaaay better.. you had all your skills and you could do any compinations you wanted.
Alt Tab was a forced system for mmos because of the network cap of the old days. before that our games were real time even back in the super mario days :P
People are very used now to WoW and they rather not look forward.. even WoW tends to be more fast paced and old timers WoW players complain... cause they want the old soup for ever..
I like a lot of things you are saying and I agree on the if your dodge is on CD, that was so annoying. But I don't think people are clinging to the past. They just have a system that works for them. Being able to tab target, has advantages as well. Sure it's especially nice for people who don't like twitch gaming (which should be fine, as everyone should be able to play games), it's also for people who want more of a strategic gameplay, like EQ1. After that a lot of button mashers appeared, but going back to a more strategic less button mashing system would be the best. I know Brad McQuaid wanted to do that with VG, but that went wrong for multiple reasons, one being slow combat in beta 2, but a lot of players really liked it.
You don't need one or the other, you need both. I see people really enjoying the Darkfall system, Tera system, even people like the GW2 system. But we also have people who still enjoy the classic EQ system, the WoW system, newer games as well. They have the chance to go to tera or another action based game, but they don't want to.
Are they wrong, maybe.
Should they try action based gaming, probably, most are F2P anyway,
Will they like it better than tab targetting, some might, but not everyone.
Reason that not more people go to tera or Darkfall is not because the Action system. There are many other weekneses on these games.. i Believe that Tera's Strongest point is the Combat system,if it wasnt for that it would be dead completely by now. And because of that rooting system you have to think your actions and your next actions alot more and with strategy in mind otherwise you are dead. even on BAM fights.
So with all these in mind i believe if the everquestnext can deliver on every aspect along with that kind of combat system would be WIN and even alt tab people would like it eventually.
I truly Believe that from all the games i have played the best implentation of Action Combat was made By TERA.
It was Action mostly but it was kinda hard to miss (not frastrating to hit something) and also there were some nice target lock skills. and many skills were target on the floor cyrcles which is kinda hard to miss too.. specificaly for healing. If they could manage to let the toons of being a bit less rooted that would be Amazing for any game.
for example
Darkfall was a bit too much of a FPS action...and for me it was really hard to kill any player even land a hit on them was hard...cause everyone was hardcore player and moving like crazy...i could partially aim and kill mobs though.. so for a game that is not niche as darkfall,that is EverquestNext i think Tera system is the best.
Also neverwinter system is a bit like tera but its very restrictive on spells/skills.you cannot have everything you might like..
and guild wars was a hybrid that tend more to the old alt tab system but with the ability to be able to move while doing anything.
but in the end of the day you couldnt avoid anything when your "dodge" button was on cd. and you couldnt kill a very hard elite by yourself although in Darkfall and Tera you could cause u had real action movement/dodge.
Also GW2 skills choise via weapons was really lame and restrictive. the GW1 was waaaay better.. you had all your skills and you could do any compinations you wanted.
Alt Tab was a forced system for mmos because of the network cap of the old days. before that our games were real time even back in the super mario days :P
People are very used now to WoW and they rather not look forward.. even WoW tends to be more fast paced and old timers WoW players complain... cause they want the old soup for ever..
I disagree that that Tera had a better combat system, or better anything for that matter. Lets break it down and compare.
You complain that GW2 had skills locked to specific weapons, but examine the whole picture. Tera, each character had on average 25 skills total in the entire game (a couple being just buffs or out of combat skills)
1. GW2 allowed each player to use 20 to 30 skills at any given time (So we're already on par with the amount of ready to use in combat skills Tera has at end game), but due to the weapon-skill system and customizable utility skills, you could customize your loadout from a much larger pool of abilities. On average, there were 60ish unique skills per class in GW2. So GW2 gave you access to use about the same amount of skills to use in combat as Tera, but the difference being that GW2 gave you a lot more freedom in building your character than Tera did (25ish total skills in Tera VS 60-70ish skills in GW2. And Tera gave you zero choice in building your character)
2. Next look at what other aspects of combat there were. In GW2 you have the combo field system. A mechanic that lets some skills or spells drop a "field" and some attacks that took advantage of the field (Whirl, Leap, Blast and Projectile). Utilizing the right skill in the right field had a drastic effect on the fight in both PVE and PVP. Coordinating with your team to place and utilize these fields made for much more complex combat. Tera had no mechanic like this, or any other combat mechanics outside of each player's skills. There's no vulnerability system like in Vanguard, or any other extra-combat mechanics.
Now complexity might not be something you like, I won't try and say you have to like one game more than the other, but concerning combat skills specifically, GW2 and Tera allowed for the same amount of available combat skills to be used at any one given time, the only difference was that GW2 allowed for character customization, where Tera had none.
I know this is going slightly off the combat topic, but Tera didn't even have a proper gear system or any real character customization. Every player of the same class wore the exact same gear and used the exact same skills. The only difference was the quality of the gear or slight enhancement to their skills with the rune system (-10% mana cost on whirling blade!). There were no "Defensive" sorc sets, There were not "offensive" Lancer sets. Everyone was a clone of everyone else.
Tera's only character customization were those little rune things I spoke of, and all they did was slightly enhance a few skills you already had.
GW2's trait system could change your tanky defensive character into a full on DPS character. Or vise versa. You had a ton of range on how your character played out. Just about every class could range from an extremely defensive tanky character, all the way to the most glass cannon DPS character, or extremely supportive healer, and every mix in between.
3. Lastly, the combat speed of Tera is painfully slow, even at high levels. The attacks are slow and telegraphed and movement speed is so painfully slow it feels like you're playing a matrix bullet-time movie. Even worst was the hit detection was so poorly done that you'd often swing a sword or shoot an arrow right through a player and it wouldn't even register.
Looking at the combat of Tera, VS the combat of GW2.... I feel there's no real compirson. GW2 wins hands down. With almost 3x the skills per class, highly customizable classes and much faster paced combat that didn't suffer from such terrible hit detection issues, combined with the extra field combat mechanic, GW2 wins in many areas.
I feel this is might be largely an "opinion", but the fact that GW2 offered almost 3x the amount of unique skills per class, and actually allowed for a lot of character customization, makes much of GW2's combat quantifiably better.
I also belive that any type of action/twitch combat leaves very little room for classes to be hugely different. I f you go down the road of GW" and everything is on aoe then heal agro is gonna be a problem or the tank has such high agro it don't matter and then we are back to spamming . How is that skillful?
If you go for tera/never winter type group targeting is next to impossible due to everybody running about the place.
So unless you have tab targeting of a type then classes like healers and cc are redundant and i for one hope those two classes are still in EQN.
If the OP means action-combat, where avoiding a hit depends on the user's ability to move out of the way; then I would say I hope not. Action-combat is yet another force that inhibits interaction and hence works against community.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The more you spam your keyboard while swinging your sword, the less you talk and the more community suffers.
While TERA combat was a novelty at first, it quickly grew tiresome, and always hurt interaction, because if you're typing and talking, you ain't swinging or casting.
So, I very much hope that NO is the true answer to your question.
Amazingly they came up with this software called VOIP. You can even set it to voice activation. So you can multitask like fighting a mob with a fast paced action combat system and chat with people, before, during and after the fight quickly and easily.
If they integrate VOIP for say and group in the game, then you won't have to invite people to vent or TS3 servers to chat, everyone will be able to hear you and talk back with you automatically.
A lot of games have this feature built in now. I won't be surprised if EQN has it.
Originally posted by bcbully "Skill based" is one of those forum buzz words that means about as much as "clunky".
Not true, Skill based is opposed to Level based and is mostly clear. There are variations, but clearly it's a game that has a development path through skills rather than levels.
"skill" on the other hand is something that's abused all over. Twitch fans think skill equals ability to aim, which to me is a fallacy. I like both so it's a non-issue for me, but there's certainly skill involved in tab target fighting.
The more you spam your keyboard while swinging your sword, the less you talk and the more community suffers.
While TERA combat was a novelty at first, it quickly grew tiresome, and always hurt interaction, because if you're typing and talking, you ain't swinging or casting.
So, I very much hope that NO is the true answer to your question.
I see this sort of response a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
Back when I used to raid in WoW, a tab-targeted style game, nobody EVER had time to type in the middle of a fight. You still had to be very focused on your rotation, and the only way to talk was through voice programs like Ventrillo and Mumble.
So I'm not sure why I keep seeing people say that action combat would be any worse off for the community. If you seriously have enough time to type something out in the middle of a fight, the fight system must be PAINSTANKINGLY slow. The only real difference between these systems is that action combat would be much more engaging rather than just constantly having to spam through your given rotation.
For myself I wouldn't mind Tab Targeting or Action combat since I have played both. What I don't want this game to be is a point and click. It got annoying after a while when I use to play Runescape back in 05 (which by the way is a skill based game not sure if you could consider it sandbox or not). That combat was really slow.
With that being said whatever combat style is in this game I hope it is fun with nice animations. This will be the first Everquest game I will play so my hopes is that it is fun.
While I enjoyed parts of TERAs combat more than GW2, the latter allowed movement during attacks which is vital to accentuate skill, and was essentially a reticle based system if the 'combat mode' mod was used. Because if this GW2 had by far the most enjoyable dungeons I've ever played in an MMO.
In the short time I played (though I had 2 80s), there were 2 instances where my group, despite being coordinated, wiped over and over again on a boss. One I remember clearly was some robot in a room with a pedestal and three small sets of stairs leading up to it. After modifying our strategy and skill sets 4 or 5 times, we completely overhauled our way of approaching the fight and used the stairs to block telegraphed projectile AoE attacks. This may not have been what the developers intended, but because the combat system was the way it was, improvisation and strategy were key. It's also worth noting, with a harsh death penalty this would not have been possible. We would've gone online, looked up a strategy, and not used our brains at all.
I've played a billion auto-attack games, and the most complex those fights have ever gotten was via skill chains (see: EQ2 or FFXI). The closest I ever got to that feeling I had in GW2 was during certain raids in AoC, which one could argue, also had an 'action-based' combat system.
wow introduced rotation based combat which degraded to pressing the right button in a row. Some small alteration, but still no skill.
Old school EQ is what people talk about when they say more community, people talking in groups etc. Not WoW or any game post WoW. In EQ you had to sit and wait for mana to replenish and while it might be considered boring, it did help people to just talk and get to know each other. Newer games saw this downtime as a flaw and fixed it, but never asked players if this was a problem. Yes, it's a problem, but not for everyone and they forgot that.
The more you spam your keyboard while swinging your sword, the less you talk and the more community suffers.
While TERA combat was a novelty at first, it quickly grew tiresome, and always hurt interaction, because if you're typing and talking, you ain't swinging or casting.
So, I very much hope that NO is the true answer to your question.
I see this sort of response a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
Back when I used to raid in WoW, a tab-targeted style game, nobody EVER had time to type in the middle of a fight. You still had to be very focused on your rotation, and the only way to talk was through voice programs like Ventrillo and Mumble.
So I'm not sure why I keep seeing people say that action combat would be any worse off for the community. If you seriously have enough time to type something out in the middle of a fight, the fight system must be PAINSTANKINGLY slow. The only real difference between these systems is that action combat would be much more engaging rather than just constantly having to spam through your given rotation.
ReallyNow10 is referring to is an auto-Attack system, or even possibly a complex macro system. In SWG I started out as a Carbineer / Creature Handler so the combat was all that exciting. But When I switched to TKA I was thankful for my combat macros so I could watch the beautiful combat animations. I was free to chat during and after combat .
PlanetSide was an MMOFPS but we still took time to use the chat window.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Comments
I like a lot of things you are saying and I agree on the if your dodge is on CD, that was so annoying. But I don't think people are clinging to the past. They just have a system that works for them. Being able to tab target, has advantages as well. Sure it's especially nice for people who don't like twitch gaming (which should be fine, as everyone should be able to play games), it's also for people who want more of a strategic gameplay, like EQ1. After that a lot of button mashers appeared, but going back to a more strategic less button mashing system would be the best. I know Brad McQuaid wanted to do that with VG, but that went wrong for multiple reasons, one being slow combat in beta 2, but a lot of players really liked it.
You don't need one or the other, you need both. I see people really enjoying the Darkfall system, Tera system, even people like the GW2 system. But we also have people who still enjoy the classic EQ system, the WoW system, newer games as well. They have the chance to go to tera or another action based game, but they don't want to.
Are they wrong, maybe.
Should they try action based gaming, probably, most are F2P anyway,
Will they like it better than tab targetting, some might, but not everyone.
Reason that not more people go to tera or Darkfall is not because the Action system. There are many other weekneses on these games.. i Believe that Tera's Strongest point is the Combat system,if it wasnt for that it would be dead completely by now. And because of that rooting system you have to think your actions and your next actions alot more and with strategy in mind otherwise you are dead. even on BAM fights.
So with all these in mind i believe if the everquestnext can deliver on every aspect along with that kind of combat system would be WIN and even alt tab people would like it eventually.
I disagree that that Tera had a better combat system, or better anything for that matter. Lets break it down and compare.
You complain that GW2 had skills locked to specific weapons, but examine the whole picture. Tera, each character had on average 25 skills total in the entire game (a couple being just buffs or out of combat skills)
1. GW2 allowed each player to use 20 to 30 skills at any given time (So we're already on par with the amount of ready to use in combat skills Tera has at end game), but due to the weapon-skill system and customizable utility skills, you could customize your loadout from a much larger pool of abilities. On average, there were 60ish unique skills per class in GW2. So GW2 gave you access to use about the same amount of skills to use in combat as Tera, but the difference being that GW2 gave you a lot more freedom in building your character than Tera did (25ish total skills in Tera VS 60-70ish skills in GW2. And Tera gave you zero choice in building your character)
2. Next look at what other aspects of combat there were. In GW2 you have the combo field system. A mechanic that lets some skills or spells drop a "field" and some attacks that took advantage of the field (Whirl, Leap, Blast and Projectile). Utilizing the right skill in the right field had a drastic effect on the fight in both PVE and PVP. Coordinating with your team to place and utilize these fields made for much more complex combat. Tera had no mechanic like this, or any other combat mechanics outside of each player's skills. There's no vulnerability system like in Vanguard, or any other extra-combat mechanics.
Now complexity might not be something you like, I won't try and say you have to like one game more than the other, but concerning combat skills specifically, GW2 and Tera allowed for the same amount of available combat skills to be used at any one given time, the only difference was that GW2 allowed for character customization, where Tera had none.
I know this is going slightly off the combat topic, but Tera didn't even have a proper gear system or any real character customization. Every player of the same class wore the exact same gear and used the exact same skills. The only difference was the quality of the gear or slight enhancement to their skills with the rune system (-10% mana cost on whirling blade!). There were no "Defensive" sorc sets, There were not "offensive" Lancer sets. Everyone was a clone of everyone else.
Tera's only character customization were those little rune things I spoke of, and all they did was slightly enhance a few skills you already had.
GW2's trait system could change your tanky defensive character into a full on DPS character. Or vise versa. You had a ton of range on how your character played out. Just about every class could range from an extremely defensive tanky character, all the way to the most glass cannon DPS character, or extremely supportive healer, and every mix in between.
3. Lastly, the combat speed of Tera is painfully slow, even at high levels. The attacks are slow and telegraphed and movement speed is so painfully slow it feels like you're playing a matrix bullet-time movie. Even worst was the hit detection was so poorly done that you'd often swing a sword or shoot an arrow right through a player and it wouldn't even register.
Looking at the combat of Tera, VS the combat of GW2.... I feel there's no real compirson. GW2 wins hands down. With almost 3x the skills per class, highly customizable classes and much faster paced combat that didn't suffer from such terrible hit detection issues, combined with the extra field combat mechanic, GW2 wins in many areas.
I feel this is might be largely an "opinion", but the fact that GW2 offered almost 3x the amount of unique skills per class, and actually allowed for a lot of character customization, makes much of GW2's combat quantifiably better.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
I also belive that any type of action/twitch combat leaves very little room for classes to be hugely different. I f you go down the road of GW" and everything is on aoe then heal agro is gonna be a problem or the tank has such high agro it don't matter and then we are back to spamming . How is that skillful?
If you go for tera/never winter type group targeting is next to impossible due to everybody running about the place.
So unless you have tab targeting of a type then classes like healers and cc are redundant and i for one hope those two classes are still in EQN.
If the OP means action-combat, where avoiding a hit depends on the user's ability to move out of the way; then I would say I hope not. Action-combat is yet another force that inhibits interaction and hence works against community.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Amazingly they came up with this software called VOIP. You can even set it to voice activation. So you can multitask like fighting a mob with a fast paced action combat system and chat with people, before, during and after the fight quickly and easily.
If they integrate VOIP for say and group in the game, then you won't have to invite people to vent or TS3 servers to chat, everyone will be able to hear you and talk back with you automatically.
A lot of games have this feature built in now. I won't be surprised if EQN has it.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
Not true, Skill based is opposed to Level based and is mostly clear. There are variations, but clearly it's a game that has a development path through skills rather than levels.
"skill" on the other hand is something that's abused all over. Twitch fans think skill equals ability to aim, which to me is a fallacy. I like both so it's a non-issue for me, but there's certainly skill involved in tab target fighting.
Asdar
I see this sort of response a lot but it doesn't make sense to me.
Back when I used to raid in WoW, a tab-targeted style game, nobody EVER had time to type in the middle of a fight. You still had to be very focused on your rotation, and the only way to talk was through voice programs like Ventrillo and Mumble.
So I'm not sure why I keep seeing people say that action combat would be any worse off for the community. If you seriously have enough time to type something out in the middle of a fight, the fight system must be PAINSTANKINGLY slow. The only real difference between these systems is that action combat would be much more engaging rather than just constantly having to spam through your given rotation.
For myself I wouldn't mind Tab Targeting or Action combat since I have played both. What I don't want this game to be is a point and click. It got annoying after a while when I use to play Runescape back in 05 (which by the way is a skill based game not sure if you could consider it sandbox or not). That combat was really slow.
With that being said whatever combat style is in this game I hope it is fun with nice animations. This will be the first Everquest game I will play so my hopes is that it is fun.
While I enjoyed parts of TERAs combat more than GW2, the latter allowed movement during attacks which is vital to accentuate skill, and was essentially a reticle based system if the 'combat mode' mod was used. Because if this GW2 had by far the most enjoyable dungeons I've ever played in an MMO.
In the short time I played (though I had 2 80s), there were 2 instances where my group, despite being coordinated, wiped over and over again on a boss. One I remember clearly was some robot in a room with a pedestal and three small sets of stairs leading up to it. After modifying our strategy and skill sets 4 or 5 times, we completely overhauled our way of approaching the fight and used the stairs to block telegraphed projectile AoE attacks. This may not have been what the developers intended, but because the combat system was the way it was, improvisation and strategy were key. It's also worth noting, with a harsh death penalty this would not have been possible. We would've gone online, looked up a strategy, and not used our brains at all.
I've played a billion auto-attack games, and the most complex those fights have ever gotten was via skill chains (see: EQ2 or FFXI). The closest I ever got to that feeling I had in GW2 was during certain raids in AoC, which one could argue, also had an 'action-based' combat system.
wow introduced rotation based combat which degraded to pressing the right button in a row. Some small alteration, but still no skill.
Old school EQ is what people talk about when they say more community, people talking in groups etc. Not WoW or any game post WoW. In EQ you had to sit and wait for mana to replenish and while it might be considered boring, it did help people to just talk and get to know each other. Newer games saw this downtime as a flaw and fixed it, but never asked players if this was a problem. Yes, it's a problem, but not for everyone and they forgot that.
ReallyNow10 is referring to is an auto-Attack system, or even possibly a complex macro system. In SWG I started out as a Carbineer / Creature Handler so the combat was all that exciting. But When I switched to TKA I was thankful for my combat macros so I could watch the beautiful combat animations. I was free to chat during and after combat .
PlanetSide was an MMOFPS but we still took time to use the chat window.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
I liked how in EQ2 I could make lots of emote+text macros.
It made communicating while I was fighting a lot easier.