Originally posted by donpopuki I think you'll be very disappointed Dullahan. Besides EQN has been hyped as a "not normal" MMO ie not a WoW clone. The writting is on the wall, I'm almost certain they will give the tools to players.
You will be the disappointed one at the end of the day. The game is not going to allow anything you suggested OP, if they do they will end up just like Neverwinter Online and that game is not fun after a couple weeks. Also the player made quests are terrible, truth is truth.
"The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"
Well it may be that all player generated content is subpar but that doesn't invalidate the possibility and highly probable direction SOE is taking it terms of player generated content.
I think if done right with the right incentives the quality of the content can be surprisingly good. It's not just about providing the tools to players to create the content but you also have "game" (hence the title of my thread) the content generation and set players to compete with each other in generating said content.
I've seen items created by players via the SOE studio and its pretty awesome. Some of the player made dungeons can be very creative. In sense SOE has been beta testing these tools in EQ2. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to the idea that these tools will make an appreane in EQN when in fact they are already live in SOE's other games. They are putting in a lot of effort in creating content tools lately and it only seems to be expanding.
You guys don't watch many interviews do you ? Dave all but confirmed that is the direction SOE is taking MMOs.
He said player created content is the future of MMOs because there is no way developers can keep up with player demand and the idea of mod teams making content for the players to enjoy is what SOE wants.
To put some context into this he was being interviewed about EQ Next when he brought this up.
We will see some hybrid content creation system. Maybe you need to gather the mats to make the dungeon or whatever, but you can expect player created quest at the very least.
Let's remember SOE developed this Game Engine making a mod to let players create content even scripted content is possible if you give them Development kits with limited use.
ie, content players create in a sandbox world, as opposed to creating nothing outside of a few items in the traditional "themepark" mmo. This does not imply players will be using anything other than the traditional means to create content such as tradeskills.
Except he said they have EQ and EQ2 as a testing board for stuff and what have they been testing in EQ and EQ2 ? Dungeon maker and player studio. Pretend all you want, but this is the direction they're going.
Also a more robust in game interface is more than capable of making a dungeon.
You guys don't watch many interviews do you ? Dave all but confirmed that is the direction SOE is taking MMOs.
He said player created content is the future of MMOs because there is no way developers can keep up with player demand and the idea of mod teams making content for the players to enjoy is what SOE wants.
To put some context into this he was being interviewed about EQ Next when he brought this up.
We will see some hybrid content creation system. Maybe you need to gather the mats to make the dungeon or whatever, but you can expect player created quest at the very least.
Let's remember SOE developed this Game Engine making a mod to let players create content even scripted content is possible if you give them Development kits with limited use.
ie, content players create in a sandbox world, as opposed to creating nothing outside of a few items in the traditional "themepark" mmo. This does not imply players will be using anything other than the traditional means to create content such as tradeskills.
Except he said they have EQ and EQ2 as a testing board for stuff and what have they been testing in EQ and EQ2 ? Dungeon maker and player studio. Pretend all you want, but this is the direction they're going.
Also a more robust in game interface is more than capable of making a dungeon.
sorry but "player generated content" does NOT mean dungeon builder, lmao. At least not in the context of the "sandbox mmo" discussion, which SOE said EQN will be. It refers to more traditional tools like trade, terittory control, city building, etc. These, if used properly, can generate infinite content (well, as long as the game has players that is).
Originally posted by donpopuki The concepts of traditional sandbox elements and dungeon builders aren't mutually exclusive. You can have all of these plus more.
well, there is a problem with dungeon builders in that they are instanced, so not shared content other players can interact with. Not to mention that "instance" and "sandbox" doens't sound very well in the same sentence.
So let me get this straight. SOE has been slowly adding things like Player Studio, Dungeon builder and acquired StoryBricks. But for some reason when it's comes to EQN they said " nah aren't going to include those things in our flagship title."
We know Story Bricks is going to be part of EQN and most likely the dungeon builder from EQ2. So we got to wonder how these elements manifest in game. One possibility is that players will be able to create their own quests with these tools. Perhaps each player is allowed to design 10 quests per account. Rewards for designing popular quests would incentivize player to make high quality quests and questors would rate the "funess" of the quest upon completion.
So imagine entering a player city and picking up a player quest which ends with a player made dungeon. Depending on how popular the quest is that will drive traffic thru your town which in turn makes its more prosperous. You might even level up your quest designer level depending on your quests' popularity which provides better rewards and complexity. Other game incentives can be added to encourage quest design competition.
With this kind of system the game can truly be called Everquest
Or the game could truly be called City of Heroes because such a thing has been done before.
There are always problems with such systems. Players will instantly make quests where you stand in a room, click something, and get a big reward. Other players will of course rate it highly. So you need a lot of oversight or restrictions in such systems to prevent the inevitable player exploits to easy levels/easy loot through player made exploit quests. CoH spent a lot of time trying to combat such things.
Originally posted by donpopuki So let me get this straight. SOE has been slowly adding things like Player Studio, Dungeon builder and acquired StoryBricks. But for some reason when it's comes to EQN they said " nah aren't going to include those things in our flagship title."
Yes makes perfect sense...
From your avatar, you're obviously a dnd rpg guy. Clearly that is affecting your perception of everything SOE has said.
SOE may bring more external player made content into EQ Next. I wouldn't be surprised if they are embarking on a new external toolkit for players to sell not only weapon designs, but buildings and everything else players can craft in a sandbox MMO and somehow allowing them to be sold as blueprints to players in game. Those things are mutually inclusive.
Whats mutually exclusive is instanced dungeon makers and a sandbox world.
Originally posted by donpopuki So let me get this straight. SOE has been slowly adding things like Player Studio, Dungeon builder and acquired StoryBricks. But for some reason when it's comes to EQN they said " nah aren't going to include those things in our flagship title."
Yes makes perfect sense...
Storybriks is not a Player tool
Of course it will be in EQnext but it will be a developer tool.
Storybricks is an AI software for NPCs, which will allow NPC's to feel less scripted and react more like a human.
We'll learn more at SOE Live during the EverQuest Next: Showing Off Your Creativity panel. "What avenues will our players have to participate in the more creative parts of an MMO?"
Originally posted by donpopuki So let me get this straight. SOE has been slowly adding things like Player Studio, Dungeon builder and acquired StoryBricks. But for some reason when it's comes to EQN they said " nah aren't going to include those things in our flagship title."
Yes makes perfect sense...
Storybriks is not a Player tool
Of course it will be in EQnext but it will be a developer tool.
Storybricks is an AI software for NPCs, which will allow NPC's to feel less scripted and react more like a human.
Quite correct, it will more than likely be utilised by the developers to create fairly adept and complex quests in a shorter time frame, probably allowing for easy integration of new quests, etc.
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!" - Sun Tzu, the Art of War
Originally posted by donpopuki So let me get this straight. SOE has been slowly adding things like Player Studio, Dungeon builder and acquired StoryBricks. But for some reason when it's comes to EQN they said " nah aren't going to include those things in our flagship title."
Yes makes perfect sense...
Storybriks is not a Player tool
Of course it will be in EQnext but it will be a developer tool.
Storybricks is an AI software for NPCs, which will allow NPC's to feel less scripted and react more like a human.
Even if it was a player's tool. The mostly likely reason for the inclusion of such a tool would be for populating guild cities.
You guys don't watch many interviews do you ? Dave all but confirmed that is the direction SOE is taking MMOs.
He said player created content is the future of MMOs because there is no way developers can keep up with player demand and the idea of mod teams making content for the players to enjoy is what SOE wants.
To put some context into this he was being interviewed about EQ Next when he brought this up.
We will see some hybrid content creation system. Maybe you need to gather the mats to make the dungeon or whatever, but you can expect player created quest at the very least.
Let's remember SOE developed this Game Engine making a mod to let players create content even scripted content is possible if you give them Development kits with limited use.
ie, content players create in a sandbox world, as opposed to creating nothing outside of a few items in the traditional "themepark" mmo. This does not imply players will be using anything other than the traditional means to create content such as tradeskills.
Except he said they have EQ and EQ2 as a testing board for stuff and what have they been testing in EQ and EQ2 ? Dungeon maker and player studio. Pretend all you want, but this is the direction they're going.
Also a more robust in game interface is more than capable of making a dungeon.
sorry but "player generated content" does NOT mean dungeon builder, lmao. At least not in the context of the "sandbox mmo" discussion, which SOE said EQN will be. It refers to more traditional tools like trade, terittory control, city building, etc. These, if used properly, can generate infinite content (well, as long as the game has players that is).
That is your definition of sandbox what are the odds SOE feels the same ? Not to mention it has classes which plenty of people will tell you classes and sandbox do not mix.
They're doing something different what you described is just something other sandbox games have. Again Dave said they have used EQ 1 and EQ2 as a testing ground and what have they tested in EQ1 ? Player Studio, What have they tested in EQ2 ? Dungeon Builder.
If you guys expect 0 instances you're in for an awakening all I can say. This game will not fit your definition of a sandbox.
I'm as excited as the next person about the marriage of EQ and Storybricks, but it will be terribly unfortunate if that union leads to player created dungeons in EQN. There are a whole host of reasons why that is a bad idea, but I'll stick to just two related ones:
1. Player created dungeons mean instances and neither of those things belong in a sandbox mmo. The whole point of a sandbox is that you feel immersed in this fantasy world. The immersion comes from decisions you make and actions you take that have a real effect on the game world. For a real sandbox you need the freedom and ability to make those decisions as well as realistic consequences and results. Your affect on the game world must happen from the inside out. If that isn't your formula, the immersion is destroyed. If I am using developer type tools to build a dungeon, build a city, populate a guildhall, or anything else, then there is no immersion. That is manipulating the world from the outside looking in. That is NOT a sandbox.
2. Player created dungeons destroy the continuity of the world, which results in less immersion--the very thing a sandbox mmo is suppose to deliver. Thousands of players creating tens of thousands of dungeons cannot possibly have a common scheme or plan for the implementation of, or story behind, the design of those dungeons. A dungeon full of trolls and ogres inside of elven territory; a dungeon that has dwarves and trolls fighting together against the players; a massive raid boss that fits nowhere within the lore; and on and on. These things ruin the immersion that a sandbox is suppose to provide.
Yes, there should be player created content, but only content that is created the same way you create content in real life. If I want to start a shop, I should be able to craft armor and weapons and open up a shop. If I want to hire guards to come defend my house, I should be able to hire guards to come defend my house. But I should not be able to look inside that guard's head and manipulate the way he acts, reacts, or thinks. That is not immersion, and that is not a sandbox mmo.
If you think about it players could create non instance dungeons. Well at least caves and tunnel like mazes. Example:
You need a boatload of materials to jumpstart your player made city. A few crafters go out and find a suitable mining site. So they find a site and start digging. Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process. After abandoning it a group of goblins move in to use it as a base to attack the freshly built player city.
And bam you have a player created dungeon that's non instanced. Seems like Story Bricks would be a perfect vehicle to script mobs to find this player made dungeon to populate.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
If you think about it players could create non instance dungeons. Well at least caves and tunnel like mazes. Example:
You need a boatload of materials to jumpstart your player made city. A few crafters go out and find a suitable mining site. So they find a site and start digging. Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process. After abandoning it a group of goblins move in to use it as a base to attack the freshly built player city.
And bam you have a player created dungeon that's non instanced. Seems like Story Bricks would be a perfect vehicle to script mobs to find this player made dungeon to populate.
I wouldn't call that a player-made dungeon, at least not in the same sense that term has been used in this thread. However, that is an excellent of example of how players should be able to affect the game world. When the players dig out the tunnels they are using their characters' in-game actions to shape the world. That is totally different than loading up a dev tool kit and creating a dungeon. The former adds to the immersion and the latter destroys it.
>>Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process.<<
And who is going to map that new network of tunnels for AI pathfinder, pray tell? Anything more complicated than "square room, short coridor, square room" and players would post videos with titles "look at those goblins glitching! They've got stuck!"
I think player tools will exist in game, not some software tools you build the world with. Using tools instead of normal crafting systems in the game is not even sandbox.
People seem to be confused when they see storybricks are on the EQ Next team. Storybricks are going to be using their software to help EQ Next come to life, not providing players with the software to build the world.
EQ Next is an MMORPG, not a development kit.
They have said EQN is more like Minecraft than WoW .
In minecraft you shape the world and build structures , mine materials to craft etc .
They also said player driven content ... that means players will create the content !
>>Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process.<<
And who is going to map that new network of tunnels for AI pathfinder, pray tell? Anything more complicated than "square room, short coridor, square room" and players would post videos with titles "look at those goblins glitching! They've got stuck!"
Genetic Algorithm and Neural Networks
of course we are too far away from having such advanced AI in MMOs or whatever game but in the future is a possibility
Comments
You will be the disappointed one at the end of the day. The game is not going to allow anything you suggested OP, if they do they will end up just like Neverwinter Online and that game is not fun after a couple weeks. Also the player made quests are terrible, truth is truth.
I think if done right with the right incentives the quality of the content can be surprisingly good. It's not just about providing the tools to players to create the content but you also have "game" (hence the title of my thread) the content generation and set players to compete with each other in generating said content.
I've seen items created by players via the SOE studio and its pretty awesome. Some of the player made dungeons can be very creative. In sense SOE has been beta testing these tools in EQ2. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to the idea that these tools will make an appreane in EQN when in fact they are already live in SOE's other games. They are putting in a lot of effort in creating content tools lately and it only seems to be expanding.
Except he said they have EQ and EQ2 as a testing board for stuff and what have they been testing in EQ and EQ2 ? Dungeon maker and player studio. Pretend all you want, but this is the direction they're going.
Also a more robust in game interface is more than capable of making a dungeon.
sorry but "player generated content" does NOT mean dungeon builder, lmao. At least not in the context of the "sandbox mmo" discussion, which SOE said EQN will be. It refers to more traditional tools like trade, terittory control, city building, etc. These, if used properly, can generate infinite content (well, as long as the game has players that is).
well, there is a problem with dungeon builders in that they are instanced, so not shared content other players can interact with. Not to mention that "instance" and "sandbox" doens't sound very well in the same sentence.
Yes makes perfect sense...
Or the game could truly be called City of Heroes because such a thing has been done before.
There are always problems with such systems. Players will instantly make quests where you stand in a room, click something, and get a big reward. Other players will of course rate it highly. So you need a lot of oversight or restrictions in such systems to prevent the inevitable player exploits to easy levels/easy loot through player made exploit quests. CoH spent a lot of time trying to combat such things.
From your avatar, you're obviously a dnd rpg guy. Clearly that is affecting your perception of everything SOE has said.
SOE may bring more external player made content into EQ Next. I wouldn't be surprised if they are embarking on a new external toolkit for players to sell not only weapon designs, but buildings and everything else players can craft in a sandbox MMO and somehow allowing them to be sold as blueprints to players in game. Those things are mutually inclusive.
Whats mutually exclusive is instanced dungeon makers and a sandbox world.
Storybriks is not a Player tool
Of course it will be in EQnext but it will be a developer tool.
Storybricks is an AI software for NPCs, which will allow NPC's to feel less scripted and react more like a human.
Quite correct, it will more than likely be utilised by the developers to create fairly adept and complex quests in a shorter time frame, probably allowing for easy integration of new quests, etc.
"Regard your soldiers as your children, and they will follow you into the deepest valleys. Look on them as your own beloved sons, and they will stand by you even unto death!"
- Sun Tzu, the Art of War
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Even if it was a player's tool. The mostly likely reason for the inclusion of such a tool would be for populating guild cities.
That is your definition of sandbox what are the odds SOE feels the same ? Not to mention it has classes which plenty of people will tell you classes and sandbox do not mix.
They're doing something different what you described is just something other sandbox games have. Again Dave said they have used EQ 1 and EQ2 as a testing ground and what have they tested in EQ1 ? Player Studio, What have they tested in EQ2 ? Dungeon Builder.
If you guys expect 0 instances you're in for an awakening all I can say. This game will not fit your definition of a sandbox.
I'm as excited as the next person about the marriage of EQ and Storybricks, but it will be terribly unfortunate if that union leads to player created dungeons in EQN. There are a whole host of reasons why that is a bad idea, but I'll stick to just two related ones:
1. Player created dungeons mean instances and neither of those things belong in a sandbox mmo. The whole point of a sandbox is that you feel immersed in this fantasy world. The immersion comes from decisions you make and actions you take that have a real effect on the game world. For a real sandbox you need the freedom and ability to make those decisions as well as realistic consequences and results. Your affect on the game world must happen from the inside out. If that isn't your formula, the immersion is destroyed. If I am using developer type tools to build a dungeon, build a city, populate a guildhall, or anything else, then there is no immersion. That is manipulating the world from the outside looking in. That is NOT a sandbox.
2. Player created dungeons destroy the continuity of the world, which results in less immersion--the very thing a sandbox mmo is suppose to deliver. Thousands of players creating tens of thousands of dungeons cannot possibly have a common scheme or plan for the implementation of, or story behind, the design of those dungeons. A dungeon full of trolls and ogres inside of elven territory; a dungeon that has dwarves and trolls fighting together against the players; a massive raid boss that fits nowhere within the lore; and on and on. These things ruin the immersion that a sandbox is suppose to provide.
Yes, there should be player created content, but only content that is created the same way you create content in real life. If I want to start a shop, I should be able to craft armor and weapons and open up a shop. If I want to hire guards to come defend my house, I should be able to hire guards to come defend my house. But I should not be able to look inside that guard's head and manipulate the way he acts, reacts, or thinks. That is not immersion, and that is not a sandbox mmo.
If you think about it players could create non instance dungeons. Well at least caves and tunnel like mazes. Example:
You need a boatload of materials to jumpstart your player made city. A few crafters go out and find a suitable mining site. So they find a site and start digging. Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process. After abandoning it a group of goblins move in to use it as a base to attack the freshly built player city.
And bam you have a player created dungeon that's non instanced. Seems like Story Bricks would be a perfect vehicle to script mobs to find this player made dungeon to populate.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I wouldn't call that a player-made dungeon, at least not in the same sense that term has been used in this thread. However, that is an excellent of example of how players should be able to affect the game world. When the players dig out the tunnels they are using their characters' in-game actions to shape the world. That is totally different than loading up a dev tool kit and creating a dungeon. The former adds to the immersion and the latter destroys it.
Boy, some people are delirious.
>>Before you know it they've gathered all the materials needs and created a networks of tunnels and caves in the process.<<
And who is going to map that new network of tunnels for AI pathfinder, pray tell? Anything more complicated than "square room, short coridor, square room" and players would post videos with titles "look at those goblins glitching! They've got stuck!"
They have said EQN is more like Minecraft than WoW .
In minecraft you shape the world and build structures , mine materials to craft etc .
They also said player driven content ... that means players will create the content !
Genetic Algorithm and Neural Networks
of course we are too far away from having such advanced AI in MMOs or whatever game but in the future is a possibility