I didnt read this wall of text but i agree with the general title of the post, and that MMO's are far too easy and simple (Linear, hand-holding bullshit).
I want to see an intelligent MMO again, like Original EQ or Pre-Cu SWG, something thats not just a family friendly adventure that the average 7 year old can play competently.
I did read it and i'm one of the early vets, eq was my home from 99 to present day on and off.
And nope i don't agree with the OP because it seems to me he has chosen to play these fed-x mmo's.
What about games like..
Ryzom.
A Tail In The Desert.
Vanguard has depths-yup it has bugs but they are not game breaking.
WurmOnline.
DarkFall.
Age Of Wulin-this games has a hella lot of depth and some new innovative features never seen in a n mmo.
ArcheAge has depth.
I could go on and on but you get my point.
The OP is complaining but it's he has no one but himself to play for following the hype of linear mmo's.
I don't think any of the new games post WoW have more depth... Better technology yes, now we are able to do things better because of it yes, this also spawns new ideas that were not capable before hand.. But that is all mechanics and new game engines... that has nothing to do with a games LORE, AA Lines, Raiding, PvP, Recipes for crafting etc... its just they favor convince now.. All the systems that were in place in games WoW and pre WoW were the basic building blocks of MMORPG.. todays games DO have those systems (Maybe Upgraded or Copied from another MMO) but they are no where near as BIG or DEEP that these games had ( And still do + More) if you for instance compared the craft recipe books from EQ2 to say a game from today RIFT.. EQ2 has WAY considerably more thing in it.. Even at launch lol... its just the values for modern MMO are washed down today.. came concept but less... for Convince basically.. Kind of like the fact we all have Smart Phones now...
I have played way too many MMORPGs in my time and I have found very few/none that don't have more depth than WoW, even by your definition of it.
Originally posted by Slavakk and now the tech is available to THE most amazing stuff now compared to what we had to deal with 14 years ago...
Just wanted to extract this sentence. I find it pretty sad that with all the tech advancements and computing power we have now, that the deepest, most complex games in the genre are still the ones from the early days 10-16 years ago. How pathetic is that really?
I mean, sure, you can blame modern graphics requirements for some of the drawbacks in other areas of the games, but there is a genuine reason why everyone is waiting around to see a revival of the old systems like UO, SWG, EQ, etc. That reason being that we are actually seeing less(options, freedom, choices, skills, exploration, etc.) out of these games the stronger our computers get =x This genre badly needs some more free worlds like the genre started out with.
This is so true. And usually the argument you get is that MMORPGs have evolved, and that the mere fact that they are in the form they are in is proof that they are evolved and better. Therefore any post-WoW game is superior. My senses tell me otherwise.
I agree with the OP (I believe many today share the same view)
Even EQ2 when it launched was fairly deep.
It had the Access quests (before you could access a Dungeon you had to complete a quest), lots of Heritage quests, the Betrayal quests (if you wanted to play a different class different from the original), Crafting required interdependance, and some other cool stuff that kept you busy and made leveling challenging and satisfying.
Most of those features were scrapped, other watered down just one year after release, and the game lost a bit of its appeal, turning into a proper WoW copy few years later.
I really hope that SoE finally understood that you need some of those challenging and time consuming content that made MMO 10 years ago something different, MMOs weren't just about the End Game but also onthe Journey to get there.
The enphasys should be on the "Journey" not only on the End Game, putting Longevity back into MMOs.
Man..I sure wish I smoked what you do. I hate to shatter your hopes and dreams but there was a game out there that put all the emphasis on the "Journey" it was called Vanguard. In fact once you got to the end game you pretty much just re-rolled cause there was nothing there and because of that it crashed and burned brighter than the Hindenburg.
I think you just don't like quickly hashed out raids coming out of conveyor belt designers and the mentality of current MMO players.
What you're talking about, people who will do quests in every starting area to get all the stories, is a niche group of people. You can sit there and say "NO ITS NOT" till your head falls off. Everyone else who plays MMOs wants to race and find the fastest way to level. Not because their aren't some bad ass quests and dungeons and cool easter eggs, but because they want that endgame. Just hop online and check out how many hits leveling guides get. If you want to change games you need to change the players, and good luck with that.
Honestly we should just go back to 10 level DND games where levels actually meant something...
It wont be, this is SOE and they'll not develop an MMO aimed at the hardcore again.
You really need to put things into perspective............most people are NOT casual players, that's why they put up with WoW hardcore End Game.
You really need to put things in perspective , WOW had 14 million sub players at one point now they have a hard time showing they have 2 million subs.....WOW's hardcore endgame didn't cause everyone to leave but it sure didn't keep some 12 million from leaving . Nobody is going to gamble on a hardcore game when casual players outnumber hardcore players 50 to 1
Pardon? I think you need to check your numbers before you go spouting that drivel. WoW maintains about 8 - 10 million players. I don't have any clue how you managed to pull 2 million subs only out of your ass, but that's just negligence on fact checking.
I didnt read this wall of text but i agree with the general title of the post, and that MMO's are far too easy and simple (Linear, hand-holding bullshit).
I want to see an intelligent MMO again, like Original EQ or Pre-Cu SWG, something thats not just a family friendly adventure that the average 7 year old can play competently.
I did read it and i'm one of the early vets, eq was my home from 99 to present day on and off.
And nope i don't agree with the OP because it seems to me he has chosen to play these fed-x mmo's.
What about games like..
Ryzom.
A Tail In The Desert.
Vanguard has depths-yup it has bugs but they are not game breaking.
WurmOnline.
DarkFall.
Age Of Wulin-this games has a hella lot of depth and some new innovative features never seen in a n mmo.
ArcheAge has depth.
I could go on and on but you get my point.
The OP is complaining but it's he has no one but himself to play for following the hype of linear mmo's.
The OP should go and play Ryzom or WurmOnline.
oh lol so we need to back and play 10 year old games. we all could have stayed in EQ then same thing.
ryzom and TitD are 10 years old. Darkfall people don't like full loot PvP. Age of wulin The entire theme of the game is not liked by many also seeing recent forum posts where is this game deep? ArcheAge not out yet o_0
Please do go on and enlighten me with a Modern day MMO with the depth and mechanics of old school ones. There is none.
edit: ohh i appearantly i forgot Vanguard. I tried abit of vanguard It might be the game what we are looking for but it immensly buggy and its empty. thats the whole thing. MMO's thrive on their launch. There arnt massive amounts of players wich will try a game at the same time a year past launch. so the world you get into are really empty. The old school players being community players are quickly done with those games then.
We need a New MMO (new in graphics) with all those old mechanics/depth we love and release it in the near future.
I imagine that with today's graphics, models exc... It would be so much more expensive to go as in depth as eq1 went. All the starting cities alone would be a huge undertaking.
You really need to put things in perspective , WOW had 14 million sub players at one point now they have a hard time showing they have 2 million subs.....WOW's hardcore endgame didn't cause everyone to leave but it sure didn't keep some 12 million from leaving . Nobody is going to gamble on a hardcore game when casual players outnumber hardcore players 50 to 1
Where did you pull those number from?................wait don't answer
Look this is not about speculating, if you played WoW for years you know there are 2 different kind of players and those 2 categories are pretty much 50:50
There are the Casual ones who main activity is to re-roll Alts as soon as they reach the end game
Then there are the Hardcore ones that spend hours each day farming Faction tokens through dailies and Dungeons, while also raiding at least 2-3 times a week.
End level zones are way more populated than newbies zones, you can see that by just logging in, that's a fact
Another fact is that Raids, both at PUG and Guild level are always packed.
I agree that this sort of End game is tedious and repetitive but that's support my theory even more.
If so many people are willing to go through all this "pain" to get the ultimate piece of gear, that means that the industry understimated the amount of Hardcore players who play WoW.
Because make no mistake, only an hardcore gamer could go through all that tedious gameplay just to get a new shiny collection of pixels.
I never played Vanguard I did not jump ship when it launched.. I stuck with Eq2 and WAR online around that time.. Eq 2 was a far better choice from the beginning vs. WoW at launch... As for what the other guy said to me about some other no name MMO's that I could care less for.. maybe I stick to the more Mainstream MMO games I guess lol.. or games with bigger budgets respectively.
But as far as what the person just said about higher populated end game zones vs. newbie zones and that most of the players are at endgame.. Well the one thing I did like about EQ2 was the ability to LVL lock...(or more simply put stopping your XP gain). On PvP servers you could lock your toon and even create guilds full of locked toons specifically for that Tiers PvP.. and with everyone wanting to get the edge on the rest people on the server most people stopped their XP gain and opted it for AA gain... I had a lvl 18 Necro with like 89 AA and some nasty end tier powers at really low levels.. But AA was mostly fed by questing... But Everyone on the server started sticking to certain Tiers.. I enjoyed this because you would totally get your max worth of quests, Exploration, Etc.. out of that Tier...
When you Lvled normally you could only do about a hand full of quests before your XP bar would take you to the next tier... it just went too fast.. So I hope they really implement the Lvl Locking feature...
It wont be, this is SOE and they'll not develop an MMO aimed at the hardcore again.
You really need to put things into perspective............most people are NOT casual players, that's why they put up with WoW hardcore End Game.
You really need to put things in perspective , WOW had 14 million sub players at one point now they have a hard time showing they have 2 million subs.....WOW's hardcore endgame didn't cause everyone to leave but it sure didn't keep some 12 million from leaving . Nobody is going to gamble on a hardcore game when casual players outnumber hardcore players 50 to 1
Pardon? I think you need to check your numbers before you go spouting that drivel. WoW maintains about 8 - 10 million players. I don't have any clue how you managed to pull 2 million subs only out of your ass, but that's just negligence on fact checking.
Let's see they confirmed 2.7 million sales of the new expansion .....perhaps 10 million didn't upgrade but still pay a subscription ? No the article said 8 million players playing hmmmm perhaps that's 6 million rental players and 2 million sub paying players at best
You really need to put things in perspective , WOW had 14 million sub players at one point now they have a hard time showing they have 2 million subs.....WOW's hardcore endgame didn't cause everyone to leave but it sure didn't keep some 12 million from leaving . Nobody is going to gamble on a hardcore game when casual players outnumber hardcore players 50 to 1
Where did you pull those number from?................wait don't answer
Look this is not about speculating, if you played WoW for years you know there are 2 different kind of players and those 2 categories are pretty much 50:50
There are the Casual ones who main activity is to re-roll Alts as soon as they reach the end game
Then there are the Hardcore ones that spend hours each day farming Faction tokens through dailies and Dungeons, while also raiding at least 2-3 times a week.
End level zones are way more populated than newbies zones, you can see that by just logging in, that's a fact
Another fact is that Raids, both at PUG and Guild level are always packed.
I agree that this sort of End game is tedious and repetitive but that's support my theory even more.
If so many people are willing to go through all this "pain" to get the ultimate piece of gear, that means that the industry understimated the amount of Hardcore players who play WoW.
Because make no mistake, only an hardcore gamer could go through all that tedious gameplay just to get a new shiny collection of pixels.
No the claim in vanilla WOW was less then 3% of the entire player base actually completed the end game runs ,,,,that rounds down pretty close to 50 to 1 ..... The only thing really open to debate is your term of hardcore and casual ....farming fraction tokens and running dumbed down raids 2-3 times a week sure isn't hardcore by any means ,it is perhaps chasing a carrot on a stick .
Originally posted by donpopuki The problem is immersion killing convenience. Take GW2 (which I enjoyed playing) you can port anywhere on the map instantly and there portals every ten feet almost. You can sell anything at any time using the auction house.
The thing is fantasy MMOs used to be virtual world simulations. Things like travel took a long time because real travel takes time. You weren't able to sell stuff to everyone in game from anywhere. Face to face interaction was needed.
A game is sometimes more defined by its restrictions and boundaries. And I'm not promoting a clunky UI btw.
Agreed, as much as I like GW2, these things don't help, and they prevented developers from actually doing anything about travel or inventory issues. I definitely prefer games with less gimmicky stuff and trying to explain it away by magic doesn't quite work...
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW Currently playing: GW2, EVE Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?
Comments
I did read it and i'm one of the early vets, eq was my home from 99 to present day on and off.
And nope i don't agree with the OP because it seems to me he has chosen to play these fed-x mmo's.
What about games like..
Ryzom.
A Tail In The Desert.
Vanguard has depths-yup it has bugs but they are not game breaking.
WurmOnline.
DarkFall.
Age Of Wulin-this games has a hella lot of depth and some new innovative features never seen in a n mmo.
ArcheAge has depth.
I could go on and on but you get my point.
The OP is complaining but it's he has no one but himself to play for following the hype of linear mmo's.
The OP should go and play Ryzom or WurmOnline.
I have played way too many MMORPGs in my time and I have found very few/none that don't have more depth than WoW, even by your definition of it.
Legends of Kesmai, UO, EQ, AO, DAoC, AC, SB, RO, SWG, EVE, EQ2, CoH, GW, VG:SOH, WAR, Aion, DF, CO, MO, DN, Tera, SWTOR, RO2, DP, GW2, PS2, BnS, NW, FF:XIV, ESO, EQ:NL
This is so true. And usually the argument you get is that MMORPGs have evolved, and that the mere fact that they are in the form they are in is proof that they are evolved and better. Therefore any post-WoW game is superior. My senses tell me otherwise.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I agree, i hope it has the depth in features and classes and world that old time roleplayers remember.
i hope it has the immersion to draw me intoo the content and let me live the world, its lore and its stories
i hope it has the challengei need to not get bored combined with the feeling that one needs to survive at all times.
I hope it has combat thats fun and chalenging, wether i am solo, grouped, raiding or zerging.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Man..I sure wish I smoked what you do. I hate to shatter your hopes and dreams but there was a game out there that put all the emphasis on the "Journey" it was called Vanguard. In fact once you got to the end game you pretty much just re-rolled cause there was nothing there and because of that it crashed and burned brighter than the Hindenburg.
I think you just don't like quickly hashed out raids coming out of conveyor belt designers and the mentality of current MMO players.
What you're talking about, people who will do quests in every starting area to get all the stories, is a niche group of people. You can sit there and say "NO ITS NOT" till your head falls off. Everyone else who plays MMOs wants to race and find the fastest way to level. Not because their aren't some bad ass quests and dungeons and cool easter eggs, but because they want that endgame. Just hop online and check out how many hits leveling guides get. If you want to change games you need to change the players, and good luck with that.
Honestly we should just go back to 10 level DND games where levels actually meant something...
Pardon? I think you need to check your numbers before you go spouting that drivel. WoW maintains about 8 - 10 million players. I don't have any clue how you managed to pull 2 million subs only out of your ass, but that's just negligence on fact checking.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22464058
oh lol so we need to back and play 10 year old games. we all could have stayed in EQ then same thing.
ryzom and TitD are 10 years old. Darkfall people don't like full loot PvP. Age of wulin The entire theme of the game is not liked by many also seeing recent forum posts where is this game deep? ArcheAge not out yet o_0
Please do go on and enlighten me with a Modern day MMO with the depth and mechanics of old school ones. There is none.
edit: ohh i appearantly i forgot Vanguard. I tried abit of vanguard It might be the game what we are looking for but it immensly buggy and its empty. thats the whole thing. MMO's thrive on their launch. There arnt massive amounts of players wich will try a game at the same time a year past launch. so the world you get into are really empty. The old school players being community players are quickly done with those games then.
We need a New MMO (new in graphics) with all those old mechanics/depth we love and release it in the near future.
Where did you pull those number from?................wait don't answer
Look this is not about speculating, if you played WoW for years you know there are 2 different kind of players and those 2 categories are pretty much 50:50
There are the Casual ones who main activity is to re-roll Alts as soon as they reach the end game
Then there are the Hardcore ones that spend hours each day farming Faction tokens through dailies and Dungeons, while also raiding at least 2-3 times a week.
End level zones are way more populated than newbies zones, you can see that by just logging in, that's a fact
Another fact is that Raids, both at PUG and Guild level are always packed.
I agree that this sort of End game is tedious and repetitive but that's support my theory even more.
If so many people are willing to go through all this "pain" to get the ultimate piece of gear, that means that the industry understimated the amount of Hardcore players who play WoW.
Because make no mistake, only an hardcore gamer could go through all that tedious gameplay just to get a new shiny collection of pixels.
I never played Vanguard I did not jump ship when it launched.. I stuck with Eq2 and WAR online around that time.. Eq 2 was a far better choice from the beginning vs. WoW at launch... As for what the other guy said to me about some other no name MMO's that I could care less for.. maybe I stick to the more Mainstream MMO games I guess lol.. or games with bigger budgets respectively.
But as far as what the person just said about higher populated end game zones vs. newbie zones and that most of the players are at endgame.. Well the one thing I did like about EQ2 was the ability to LVL lock...(or more simply put stopping your XP gain). On PvP servers you could lock your toon and even create guilds full of locked toons specifically for that Tiers PvP.. and with everyone wanting to get the edge on the rest people on the server most people stopped their XP gain and opted it for AA gain... I had a lvl 18 Necro with like 89 AA and some nasty end tier powers at really low levels.. But AA was mostly fed by questing... But Everyone on the server started sticking to certain Tiers.. I enjoyed this because you would totally get your max worth of quests, Exploration, Etc.. out of that Tier...
Let's see they confirmed 2.7 million sales of the new expansion .....perhaps 10 million didn't upgrade but still pay a subscription ? No the article said 8 million players playing hmmmm perhaps that's 6 million rental players and 2 million sub paying players at best
No the claim in vanilla WOW was less then 3% of the entire player base actually completed the end game runs ,,,,that rounds down pretty close to 50 to 1 ..... The only thing really open to debate is your term of hardcore and casual ....farming fraction tokens and running dumbed down raids 2-3 times a week sure isn't hardcore by any means ,it is perhaps chasing a carrot on a stick .
Agreed, as much as I like GW2, these things don't help, and they prevented developers from actually doing anything about travel or inventory issues. I definitely prefer games with less gimmicky stuff and trying to explain it away by magic doesn't quite work...
Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?