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One of the main things a revolutionary mmo needs, complete AI overhaul, mobs that don't just "stand
Stiler
Member Posts: 599
This is one thing that has always bugged me about mmo worlds, the way almost every single mmo is built whereby you have these npc's that literally do NOTHING but stand around in "X" spot waiting for someone to come along and kill them for exp. They have the AI of a grapefruit (if even that).
It would be bloody nice if the AI was completley and utterly overhauled, where the AI doesn't simply stand around, but rather an entire AI ecosystem where npc's actually do things. Where wild animals will do things like you would naturally expect them to do. Go hunting, catch food, sleep, etc.
The AI for such animals should require them to survive, hunt, drink, sleep, everything you'd think an animal would do. Not just stand around in a spot or slowly roaming in a pre-determined manner.
There should be many varieties of animal AI. From animals that are herd animals which are passive (Think cows, horses, etc) to animals that are pack hunters (IE wolves) to aniamls that are more loners (bears for example). Some animals have "territories" which they protect (so other creatures that come into the territory of those animals they will fight/be aggressive toward), think of how chimps do).
This is what makes games like Far Cry 3, Gothic, Skyrim, etc fun. The AI is constantly interacting and doing things, they aren't static. However even they don't have everything I listed above.
This is just the wild-life examples.
Then you have Human AI, which can be even more advanced. Human/intelligent AI can be even more varied, they should all have the basic needs AI as well (need to eat/drink/sleep) That they fulfill in various ways.
However like humans today money should also play an important role in such things. For example, if an NPC is poor/has little money, but they are hungry, their AI might lead them to doing things such as stealing to get money, or stealing to get the food they need.
You can tie morals into the AI's too, so a "good" npc who is also poor, might instead "beg" for money to eat (And npc's which are also good and have money would give them some, but bad ones wouldn't).
Then you can go deeper by having various tasks npc's can do, jobsj, etc.
This kind of emergent AI that leads npc's to doing things that are more varied and not pre-scripted can lead to a world that feels a lot more alive and dynamic. It's one of the main things I feel that is holding back mmo's in terms of interaction with npc's and players.
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The only problem I can see is that if you upgraded the AI of mobbs to that of a grapefruit, they would instantly run and hide as soon as your mighty warrior with dragon sword came within two miles distance of their current location.
If they had the AI of a grapefruit, you would never see them.
(That's why you so rarely see any grapefruits ingame, btw)
Totally agree +1+1
Absolutely, thats why even console gamers get pumped when new systems drop. Because it marks new stages in AI also, but we aren't the guys getting paid (have the disposable income) to do these things. So mostly we sit and watch to see how it all unfolds.
Gamers natrually get better at games, just like when we were children putting the circle plastic in the square hole we were constantly getting better. Developers should've understood this a long time ago and I'm sure many have. It's really the big publishers and spenders that sometimes control many aspects of game design.
Kickstarter and the likes give oppurtunities for upstarts to create something for the gamers, but it wouldn't be a bad thing to see the known contenders step up to the plate and provide something truly inspiring in all aspects especially Artificial Intellegince.
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heh you know that a CRPG inthe 80s called Dragon Wars had AI like that.once you were a certain level above them or killed enough of them the monsters would flee rather than fight.
Those types of mechanics are still used. Except now the mobs don't run. They just don't attack you at all once you've surpassed certain level of them. Guild Wars 2 had a interresting take (unoriginal but mainstream) approach with downscalling your levels but really. It shouldn't be about making you weaker to make stuff "harder" it should the AI that is ready to evolve with the player.
Something so dynamic would be an astronomical attempt of course, but that is why it would be scaled back naturally to account for the setting of an MMO'ish numbers. Sever limitations could provide the proper control over numbers but all that would have to be designed directly into the core of the game. It can't just be some third hand mention but one of the primary focuses of the game.
IDK, dreamers will be dreamers.. *Such Pretty Clouds*
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
In general, I'd agree that MMOs need much more advanced behavior, either from actual AI or either simple scripting. The biggest thing needed is some degree of randomness, especially in intelligent races. Randomness will provide unpredictability, which is needed for keeping the game fresh. Joe the Baker gets drunk and doesn't show up for work today. Result: Fewer in-game loaves of bread for sale, and the quality might be lower, also.
For animal behavior, I'd suggest looking at Ryzom. Even at the introductory levels, herbivores and carnivores act differently, and react to in-game actions. Been hunting that herbivore herd too much? The herd will move away. Carnivores will follow the herds, and attack players if the opportunity arises.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I know in Pre cu SWG mobs would fight if they got close to each other.
Ryzom is a good example of having an interesting wildlife. They'd migrate, walk in packs etc.. It's one of the things I remember the most, intelligent wildlife. Hope to see something like you mention in EQN for sure..
What I am afraid of........ is that storybricks is just for players to use? But srely that would be lazy.
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I agree!
Mobs in MMOs should have purpose/function that they carry out even in the absence of players. Imo they should even be able to evolve and loot players (if the mmo were full loot)
It would spicen up PvE in a number of ways
e.g. 1
A goblin clan hunt deer for meat and skin them for leather, but if a player intercepted one such goblin he would find the usual loot + the meat and leather!
e.g. 2
Two neighbouring goblin clans might start a feud and one might eventually take over the other one's hold, expanding their clan. Having no more enemies and more number they might raise the stakes and look to attacking a nearby NPC city or a Player city, hence creating EvP!
e.g. 3
A goblin boss players attempted to kill and failed grew stronger from it and also looted and equipped gear from the slain players, making him even harder to kill
I wish I have the capital and skill-base to bring about such an MMO myself, but I don't. But a few reasons I can imagine why developers keep it simple are:
- more AI calculations = more server load = performance hit
- not all players might enjoy harder AI. They might not like PvE and so would not like it getting even harder
- better AI means more work for the developers. The more complex the AI the more work. And at the end of the day, the effort needed might not improve the sales of the end-product
So yeah ... would be awesome but I can't see it happening
Agree wholeheartedly.
I'd love to see AI where mobs or npcs in the world would interact beyond a few simple lines of dialogue and the occasional emote. I want to log in one day and notice goblins have built a camp outside of my city. I want to see mobs like this, when left unmolested, capable of accomplishing goals like a small colony in an RTS game. Goblins mining, hunting nearby wildlife, one sharpening sticks, etc. And have their goals become grander based on the intelligence of a given race or species.
The ecosystem ai was done in Ultima Online. They quickly found most players didn't care and just slaughtered and skinned animals without taking much notice of the balance or anything. So they yanked it out and put in a more simple version in which there still was predator/prey but just not on as big a scale.
As far as npcs go.....
Back in Everquest there were certain creatures or npc's that only came out at night or for a specific time. Kithicor Woods was a good example of a whole zone changing at night time.
Also in EQ there were roaming creatures and npc pratrols that would go across the whole area. I do like the concept of npc's in towns having duties and such. This was also done a bit in EQ but I would like to see it expanded on even more. I do think having some mobs and npc's not move much is a good thing though as well. For instance there should be guards, and other types of mob or npc in places that make sense. I remember in EQ I had to basically follow a guy around and then get him his favorite drink at the local pub to finally get him to talk to me about a quest line I was working on. Very fun stuff.
I used to use that at times by running into a group of rebel NPCs when stormtroopers were chasing me.
Also in EQ1 my best friend started a war between two NPC factions by dragging them too close together on accident. They kept spawning at increasing rates and the server went down
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Actually, ryzom had animals that "do things". They move about in herds, will notice you and come over to sniff you if they are herbivores or attack you if they are carnivores.
Otherwise, though I agree with your sentiment about mobs "standing around" they usually act as "power-ups".
I wouldn't mind a more challenging mob type but I think most people are just interested in leveling. Maybe the "phat lootz".
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
As far as over-leveling mobs, EQ2 has seperate animations for mobs if they are grey to you. Orcs for example will cower and shield themselves towards you. I thought it was pretty funny when I first seen it.
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Some of those things I've experienced in:
Ryzom - herds of animals moving great distances
SWG Pre-CU - a SHIP full of stormtroopers would sometime randomly come out of skies, drop troopers nearby and if you're unlucky and carrying illegal weapons and/or items, they would challenge you to stop which could lead to a fight.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
Just going to say I agree in general. Right now I feel like I'm practically doing yard work when I go and kill mobs in most of the games in this genre.
I like the idea of mobs having their own ecosystem along side the player ecosystem. Doing their own thing, even if scripted, to add 'life' to them and make it feel like more of an interaction than going out and pulling weeds.
Depending on how and to what extent they implement Story Bricks, NPC A.I. could easily be made far more interesting than 'NPCs stand around - until you're in aggro range'.
It's possible they'll just be using it for the player generated content, but I'd imagine we'll see it across the board to tie the whole experience together. That would result in different reactions from different NPCs depending on a large number of variables, and different reactions to different players depending on flags.
Even the old bare bones alpha videos of Story Bricks give a pretty good indication of the scope of what's possible.
While i agree that it would be great, there will always be people who complain about it being too "time consuming" which causes the developer to remove it.
For example, LOTRO had a few quests that required you to kill creatures who only appeared by night. But then people complained about having to wait a few min until it turned night so they removed that.
There also used to be a forest that there was no ingame map for and it was kind of a labyrinth which fit the setting of that forest perfectly. But once again, people complained so they added a map with routes so people could go through it in no time
You can't have an overhaul of NPC AI with the current quest systems (e.g. kill 10 of X, collect 10 pelts of Y). It would be a welcome change if both were aspects of MMOs experienced some reshaping, though.
Loved that about Ryzom. Its those little things.
I dont know. I dont consider daily schedule pathing to be AI. And if Im reading you correctly and thats what you mean then I dont want to search high and low for an npc thats supposed to be in his shop but is out back taking a piss. It would be nice if they have some life, but if you cant ask around to find the npc:
"hey, you seen joe the baker - i have his onions"
"blank response"
then its just not worth it.
If you mean real AI where the npc's act differently depending on their environment, they really havent got AI programming up to the task even in single player games. I remember them claiming they had it in Oblivion. Hard core npc's were supposed to "figure out" that they could get money for their addiction by killing other npc's. It never happened in Oblivion, and they still didnt have it in Skyrim. Its not even close to happening.
Couldn't you have a quest like: Kill 10 Highroad Bandits but then they followed their AI and went into town to the Tavern for a bit instead of standing on the side of the road at x1200, y341 ?
You would just have to find them.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Really? you'd rather just have in him standing in the same spot all the time? Man that's just lazy.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Static quests in an open world are in my book a thing of the past... You dont look for the NPC, the NPC steps outside and shouts at you, and if you come close, then he tells you about the quest he needs to be done.. he tells everyone about the quest thats near... and everyone goes after the same goals.. Thats dynamic open world design..
Keep in mind that quests arent available all the time, but only based on the dynamics in the zone, what has happened lately and who is curently your major..or whatever. Anyway, Quests come available based on the players actions..and so players actually change the world..
The game does really need NPCs to move, have random spawnpoints, and to have a goal, i.e. if there are 30 orcs in a camp they stand ready to defend the camp, but if the number of orcs slowly raises to like 90 Orcs, they move out in patrols to wrack havoc in the world.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
GW2 dynamic events on steroids! I agree this is what MMO needs.
And once you introduce these you need NPCs that can react to a bunch of random conditions: houses are burning, well they should be using water to put down the fire. Monsters are attacking, depending on disposition they should either fight back or run, etc.