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Grouping size and trinity

Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686

What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

And what trinity roles would you like to see..

 

i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

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Comments

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    For classic EQ styled trinity I would go with 6 players as well.

    But I would love to see something a bit different, like that Shadowrun kickstarter. 6 players, rigger, decker, physical combat and magic  with some possibilities for classes to switch between 2 roles would be awesome. 

    Most MMO players are a bit too oldfashioned and think trinity or zerging is the only group dynamics possible but there are plenty, the important is that players support eachother and work together in combat. Timing and strategy should always be important. :)

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

     

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    Tank, DPS, Healing, CC, DEBUFF, BUFF.

    So six.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Member RarePosts: 9,686
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    For classic EQ styled trinity I would go with 6 players as well.

    But I would love to see something a bit different, like that Shadowrun kickstarter. 6 players, rigger, decker, physical combat and magic  with some possibilities for classes to switch between 2 roles would be awesome. 

    Most MMO players are a bit too oldfashioned and think trinity or zerging is the only group dynamics possible but there are plenty, the important is that players support eachother and work together in combat. Timing and strategy should always be important. :)

    Well, trinity adds a layer of tactical depth to the group combat, just taking thats away like gw2 did did not work to well in my opinion,  the trinity on top of is the part that makes a group a lot stronger then the sum of the individuals...

     

    i dont know shadowrun, but if they actually have a system that replces the old trinity and adds the same depth as the trinity, they would be very welcome

     

    i am a big fan of multi roles myself, znd this might be actually  a good change and adding more depth to the game if all classes could switch between 2 roles on the fly... Think offtanking, think extra healing, think bosses where you just need as much dps as possible..  This definately would add more depth and dynamics to group combat..  Which would in my opinion work much better then just stupidly removing the layer...

     

    As said before GW2 did do many things that worked very well.. However some did not work to well, there is major lessons to be learned from GW2, this is one of the mostimportant ones

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Member Posts: 848
    What is the group for? Instances? Mob griding?
  • KarbleKarble Member UncommonPosts: 750
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

     

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    I like 6

    You can have tank, offtank, healer, secondary healer/buff debuff, and a cc class with on the fly abilities.

    So that's 5 classes with a 6th thrown in depending on what is required.

    Also 6 means people can totally change the party dynamics and still make it work in many encounters. Like 3 mages with pets doing the tanking and dps and a shaman or enchanter to slow the mobs and haste the mage pets. Also throw in a dedicated healer and you have a group that is totally doable.

    There are lots of combos within this mix that work best with 6. It just provides viability for groups outside the usual perfect group to still be successful if you can't find class X or Y in your area during the time you have to game.

  • SaydienSaydien Member Posts: 266

    I would probably also go for 5 or 6. Personally I wouldn't even have a seperate CC class but rather integrate that into 1 or 2 of the other roles adding to the choices you can make in your spec. Like having to sacrifice some damage/healing for better CC.

    Beyond that though I wouldn't try to mix the roles simply because many of those hybrid character creation attempts in my eyes have destroyed the need and the ability to cooperate properly (with GW2 being the sad peak of it). Sooo tank, healer and dps. Might seem boring and uncreative but with the only game that in my eyes has managed to pull that off properly being over 10 years old (I mean you, DAoC) it is time for a revival!

  • GholosGholos Member Posts: 209
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

     

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    6 char. party is good number for the basic istances of the game, but i really would see big raids too.

    I agree with the roles you have listed, and that the classes should have different possible spec. but i dont want to see classes that istant switch their roles without respec and equipment change or weird things like wizard that can tank, rogue that can be main healer etc.

    image


    "Brute force not work? It because you not use enought of it"
    -Karg, Ogryn Bone'ead.

  • frizzlepicklefrizzlepickle Member Posts: 72
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

     

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

       As long as we have actual roles that can't be filled by every other character with a quick spec switch. Basically; doing anything is great, doing everything is bad. Especially for an RPG which is all about playing a particular role. Six is great for me, 5 is good too, but 4 (Like SW:TOR) is too small.

       They NEED raids though, can't stress that enough. A raid doesn't have to be an instance, but it does need to be a large amount of players going against NPC enemies in some way. An MMO has the advantage of thousands of players playing at once, why on earth would you not want to take advantage of those numbers? If 5 players groups are all we get what makes the game any different than Diablo? Raids are a definitive part of the genre, removing them takes the MMO right out of it.

    image
  • frizzlepicklefrizzlepickle Member Posts: 72
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    For classic EQ styled trinity I would go with 6 players as well.

    But I would love to see something a bit different, like that Shadowrun kickstarter. 6 players, rigger, decker, physical combat and magic  with some possibilities for classes to switch between 2 roles would be awesome. 

    Most MMO players are a bit too oldfashioned and think trinity or zerging is the only group dynamics possible but there are plenty, the important is that players support eachother and work together in combat. Timing and strategy should always be important. :)

    Well, trinity adds a layer of tactical depth to the group combat, just taking thats away like gw2 did did not work to well in my opinion,  the trinity on top of is the part that makes a group a lot stronger then the sum of the individuals...

     

    i dont know shadowrun, but if they actually have a system that replces the old trinity and adds the same depth as the trinity, they would be very welcome

     

    i am a big fan of multi roles myself, znd this might be actually  a good change and adding more depth to the game if all classes could switch between 2 roles on the fly... Think offtanking, think extra healing, think bosses where you just need as much dps as possible..  This definately would add more depth and dynamics to group combat..  Which would in my opinion work much better then just stupidly removing the layer...

     

    As said before GW2 did do many things that worked very well.. However some did not work to well, there is major lessons to be learned from GW2, this is one of the mostimportant ones

        You are my hero, I just wanted you to know that.

    image
  • Four0SixFour0Six Member UncommonPosts: 1,175

    I like City of Heroes and 8 man groups. Or I did like that.

     

    Tank, Heals, buff/debuff, CC, DPS(melee/ranges)

     

    I am fine with allowing a player to fill more than 1 role, but not at the same time. You want to tank, fine, but you can't also main heal the group. So out of combat role switching I guess.

     

    I would like to have the individual roles be multi faceted. As in self healing vs defensive vs resistance tanking.

     

    Stacking buffs, to allow for the larger group size. Allowing for creative groups formation.

  • OnomicOnomic Member Posts: 196

    6 members is the magic number if you have cc or buff class, if cc is combined with healer/tank/dps/buffer 5 would work. No cc 4 would work, but i personaly find 4 group members to limited in mmorpg.

    More then 6 would be a blast, but a hassle to make those groups after the rush. So might not be the best option.

  • StrommStromm Member Posts: 243

    6.

    Although I would not mind a mechanic that made groupsize/rewards scaleable. Plenty of times in EQ1 I wanted to include a friend but the group was full already, and I know for a fact that the rest of my friends would give up XP and droprate % to include friends.

  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306

    36.. 12 tanks in heavy armor with shields and a note from their mom stating they play too much, 12 healers with a minimum of 350 gameplay hours healing and legal documentation stating such (notarized), 11 dps with proof of age (or IQ.. also notarized), and 1 cc wearing a penguin suit..

     

    Failing that.. 5-6 is good enough for group size.. 8 works okay, but is kind of pushing it.. Its hard enough to find the 5-6 people who won't bail 5 minutes in.. :)

     

     

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by TyranusPrime

    36.. 12 tanks in heavy armor with shields and a note from their mom stating they play too much, 12 healers with a minimum of 350 gameplay hours healing and legal documentation stating such (notarized), 11 dps with proof of age (or IQ.. also notarized), and 1 cc wearing a penguin suit..

     

    Failing that.. 5-6 is good enough for group size.. 8 works okay, but is kind of pushing it.. Its hard enough to find the 5-6 people who won't bail 5 minutes in.. :)

     

     

    Awesome. I was fine until I hit the penguin suit and then I spit my sweet tea onto the screen. Thx for the chuckles.

  • KarbleKarble Member UncommonPosts: 750

    eeerm....

    Off topic,,,but does anyone else see the half naked blond girl with the baby bird on her head and a lamb on the shore with a three leaf clover stuck in it's forehead???

    Whoooah.....just Whoaah..

  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    Originally posted by ropenice

    Awesome. I was fine until I hit the penguin suit and then I spit my sweet tea onto the screen. Thx for the chuckles.

    Heh.. You are most welcome.. Just knowing there are monitors moist from spit-takes warms my heart.. :)

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • KarbleKarble Member UncommonPosts: 750
    Originally posted by TyranusPrime
    Originally posted by ropenice

    Awesome. I was fine until I hit the penguin suit and then I spit my sweet tea onto the screen. Thx for the chuckles.

    Heh.. You are most welcome.. Just knowing there are monitors moist from spit-takes warms my heart.. :)

    Love your godzilla avatar.....rock on and stuff

  • asdarasdar Member UncommonPosts: 662

    I hope 6 with healer, tank, DPS and CC and I'd like to see some places that want TP.


    Evac! Evac! Evac!

    Asdar

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    I liked EQ2s 6. Was quite flexible. Tank, healer, chanter, bard and two DPS. If you were short one utility or DPS you could get a second healer instead. Guessing they will have content for multiple size groups like in EQ2.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332

    I liked the way FFXI did it ,a complex system that allowed anywhere from solo to 6 players.6 players seems to be perfect before penalizing xp ,it gives you the Tank 2-3 DPS,a healer or 2 and/or a variable type class.

    The problem i had with SOE was they made the fights too sloppy and too fast,like 12 mobs coming at once and everything is zerg attack both from th NPC and the players.That is why i much prefer fights with single targets,that way it is a more controlled fight but can offer the risk if you get any linking or adds.

    The way SOE designed mobs and Ai was too simple,all mobs acted like on the same AI and 12 mobs were just like 2-3 strong ones metered down for quick kills.I rather have ONE very strong mob ,so that every move,spell has meaning.

    I found it really dumb to design the Rogue class to get behind creatures then have 12 creatures attack at once,unless i am missing something,that Rogue can only be behind one creature at a time.In FFXI for example,it utilizes the same theory of standing behind,but there is only one mob to fight,so you know where your Thief will line up and why,it is just more organized type fighting.

    Yes to Trinity,it only makes sense,we use that same way of thinking in ALL our sports.We have a center and defense and wide receivers and pitchers and  back catchers,they are called ROLES and go figure >>>ROLE PLAYING genre lol.Even in the work force ,people have roles from lineman to foreman to tool and die setter ,computer programmer,technician ect ect.

    I think SOE  just needs some new blood that can think with a tad more common sense rather than continue with some of their mistakes in designs of past.Not a fan of this jorgenson guy and definitely not a fan of Smedley.Brad i like :P.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • evilastroevilastro Member Posts: 4,270
    What SoE games were you playing? Its not Never winter, neither EQ1 or EQ2 focused on large add zergs, and where they existed it focused on CC rather than AE blasting. On most raid bosses the Assassins and Rogues stay on the main boss for hate transfers and debuffs.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I liked the way FFXI did it ,a complex system that allowed anywhere from solo to 6 players.6 players seems to be perfect before penalizing xp ,it gives you the Tank 2-3 DPS,a healer or 2 and/or a variable type class.

    The problem i had with SOE was they made the fights too sloppy and too fast,like 12 mobs coming at once and everything is zerg attack both from th NPC and the players.That is why i much prefer fights with single targets,that way it is a more controlled fight but can offer the risk if you get any linking or adds.

    The way SOE designed mobs and Ai was too simple,all mobs acted like on the same AI and 12 mobs were just like 2-3 strong ones metered down for quick kills.I rather have ONE very strong mob ,so that every move,spell has meaning.

    I found it really dumb to design the Rogue class to get behind creatures then have 12 creatures attack at once,unless i am missing something,that Rogue can only be behind one creature at a time.In FFXI for example,it utilizes the same theory of standing behind,but there is only one mob to fight,so you know where your Thief will line up and why,it is just more organized type fighting.

    Yes to Trinity,it only makes sense,we use that same way of thinking in ALL our sports.We have a center and defense and wide receivers and pitchers and  back catchers,they are called ROLES and go figure >>>ROLE PLAYING genre lol.Even in the work force ,people have roles from lineman to foreman to tool and die setter ,computer programmer,technician ect ect.

    I think SOE  just needs some new blood that can think with a tad more common sense rather than continue with some of their mistakes in designs of past.Not a fan of this jorgenson guy and definitely not a fan of Smedley.Brad i like :P.

    The rogue attacking from behind is a classic old school dnd thoef character game mechanic.  Can't blame mmoRPG creators from adding in a class from a pen and paper RPG.  Common sense from that point of view.

    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • RorrinRorrin Member UncommonPosts: 29

    Yes, I'm growing a little tired of the mob zerg mentality also.  No real strat, just swing at anything and aoe everything.  Especially in these new "action" mogs - this so called active combat that has me circle strafing and dodge rolling adnauseum, if there are 6 mobs attacking me I can only really dodge so many before dodging away from one just means dodging into another.

    Too many people are equating running around like a chicken with its head cut off to "action" combat, and they always juxtapose that to "sandwich" combat, ie hit auto attack and just stand there while the RNG determines the winner.  Thing is you can still have active and engaging combat without constantly having to move.  You can active block, parry, riposte, teleport to the back of the mob, evade so mob misses, debuff, slow, and dodge all without having to circle strafe once.  Add in avoiding environment hazards and mob telegraphs for powerful skills and you have the basics for some pretty decent combat.

    Oh and by the way, for those that are always confused, the original trinity was warrior (tank), cleric(heals), enchanter(CC).  Dps could be sprinkled in however after that, but the must haves were those 3.

  • RogoshRogosh Member UncommonPosts: 208
    Just reading this thread i came to realise you all either forgot or dont realise that pulling was part of the group dynamic eq1. monks bards and shadow knights all were FD or major pullers because you had to split the mobs, you dont aoe dps stuff down in EQ it does not happen.

    "Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  • Gallus85Gallus85 Member Posts: 1,092
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    What would be the perfect group size for a new MMO.

    And what trinity roles would you like to see..

    i would say 6 man groups with tank/healer/support/crowd controll   Roles.  I hope they build classes that can function in several roles depending on specs, i hate one trick ponies.

    For classic EQ styled trinity I would go with 6 players as well.

    But I would love to see something a bit different, like that Shadowrun kickstarter. 6 players, rigger, decker, physical combat and magic  with some possibilities for classes to switch between 2 roles would be awesome. 

    Most MMO players are a bit too oldfashioned and think trinity or zerging is the only group dynamics possible but there are plenty, the important is that players support eachother and work together in combat. Timing and strategy should always be important. :)

    Well, trinity adds a layer of tactical depth to the group combat, just taking thats away like gw2 did did not work to well in my opinion,  the trinity on top of is the part that makes a group a lot stronger then the sum of the individuals...

     

    i dont know shadowrun, but if they actually have a system that replces the old trinity and adds the same depth as the trinity, they would be very welcome

     

    i am a big fan of multi roles myself, znd this might be actually  a good change and adding more depth to the game if all classes could switch between 2 roles on the fly... Think offtanking, think extra healing, think bosses where you just need as much dps as possible..  This definately would add more depth and dynamics to group combat..  Which would in my opinion work much better then just stupidly removing the layer...

     

    As said before GW2 did do many things that worked very well.. However some did not work to well, there is major lessons to be learned from GW2, this is one of the mostimportant ones

    I think GW2 proved to be a really good combat system without needing dedicated roles.

    You could make your life a lot easier having specific "specs" in your group, but you could generally do all content in the game without "needing" any one class.

    This let people play with the people* they wanted to play with, and didn't force exclusion due to being the "wrong class".

    I expect to see more combat like GW2 in the future.  More hectic, realistic combat.  Instead of 1 guy pushing a taunt button, a mob standing there laying into the plate w/shield wielder, while ignoring the healer and the mage elves in dresses.

     

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