I haven't read "all" the posts, but I've read a good 70-80% of them, and not too many people are mentioning full loot PvP; most people are talking about open world or FFA PvP. Just because you have open world PvP, meaning you can attack or be attacked anywhere in the game, doesn't mean you have to have full loot. I love PvP, but I'm still an advocate for backpack and not equipped items loot. After hours of playing any gear that you really want is safe because it would be on your equipped body.
Another side of that coin where FFA PvP doesn't have to be full loot would be that a full loot game doesn't necessarily have to mean Raid dungeons are open pvp areas.
I personally like the idea of open pvp areas, but as Mos points out -- one has to be honest that just because you hear a phrase describing a system that has been done before in a game, doesn't mean the next game has to implement that system in the exact same way.
Then there is the fact that one system, like full loot/item drop, can exist - and all the other systems interconnected with it can change and leave a game that plays nothing like every other full loot/item drop game you've played.
This is one compromise I would be willing to make; I hate instances but I would be ok with a few high end dungeons being instanced and off limits for PvP. The game still wouldn't be fun if they didn't have some type of territory control or guild vs guild, but that has nothing to do directly with instanced dungeons.
So if the game could deliver open world PvP, with asset destruction and guild vs guild city building/sieges, while still having 3-5 high end dungeons that were instanced and safe from PvP I would readily play a game like that. Full loot or back pack loot, or any other type of loot rights would fit into the above scenario; just as Rama said there are different sides to the coin.
you are kidding, right? thats compromise as saying "i want a steak, you want a pizza, ok, lets compromise: we will have steak but you can put a tommato sauce on yours"
Seen through the eyes of someone that wants no instances in a game, I would say that is a compromise. Compromise is not about steak or pizza, it's about letting a few things go here and then there so that we can come to agreement on a game we would all like. So you think that's not a big compromise I get that, but for a lot of PvP players that don't want to have instances I can tell you it's pretty big for us.
Still there are so many mechanics that accompany instances or open world PvP, that you can't take this one part and start talking about steak vs pizza. Remember my whole dialogue is about PvP and how PvE could be implemented in a PvP game. This isn't about how to create great PvE with an add on of good PvP.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
This isn't even a PvP vs PvE issue in my mind. I would love to get rid of gear drops in raids in all games and go to a system where the rewards are high end materials. The single best reason is to make crafting an actual worthwhile profession. I will take EQ2 as an example, on PvE servers; after awhile there is no actual need for the crafter to make armor if the best gear in game is raid dropped. By changing the rewards to be materials (even if they can't be looted as a PvP) it gives the crafter a continuing profession.
I have a couple points to make. Looting off other players, leaning the power towards the PvEer, and making a challenge for the PvPer.
As a PvPer, and one who supports OWFFA PvP, looting from your victims is a TERRIBLE IDEA! The risk/reward factor in PvP is simply in the term itself! PvPers want to fight other players. In games like CoD or CS, players play simply to test their limits and to have a good time. In arena style MMOs, the majority of pvpers spend very little time grinding for gear, and the the rest of the time just PvPing for the hell of it.
The only time I've ever played an MMO where I can loot another player, was EQ1. You know what, I didn't even care about it. What I enjoyed was the unexpected gank, and then the retaliation. The fear of going to areas I'd probably get ganked at. The random battles in key farming locations, between two groups (I'm thinking about you Orc Camp in G. Faydark.) Man, I remember seeing shouts about some Dark Elf killing noobs, and I would hop on my main and hunt him down! Greatest feeling ever! It had nothing to do with the loot, and everything to do with the thrill.
Why should the PvEers have the power scale leaned towards them? Simple, in a game like EQ, I expect the BEST items to come from dungeons. Huge, massive, EPIC battles. The kind that blood, sweat, tears, and finger nails are spilled over. The kind that are so legendary, that whole marriages are broken up over. With that said, in an environment where PvEers get the best gear, the PvPers can't PK. In a OWFFA PvP setting with all the BiS gear going to the PvEer, a PvPer will have to outskill or PvE himself to be on equal ground.
PvPers thrive off honing their skills. If he/she wants to PK a PvEer who has all kinds of gear, he/she will have that challenge to hone said skills. This idea goes along with the "making a challenge for the PvPer." Gankers are usually lacking in skill and it's why they... well... gank. Most PvPers only look to fight other PvPers to hone their skills.
To conclude, I'd like to tie things together. PvEers have the best gear, so are more difficult to gank. If a PvPer tries to gank them, it will require more skill or equal gear (which actually helps the PvEers find more steady groups for dungeons) to compete. Now, you could just edit the idea and say "you can only attack players within your level range..." or, "increase guard NPCs in certain areas to reduce the amount of grief." There are loads of possibilities. Just remember that, in life, it's about progress and not perfection. In conflicts such as this, it's better to find the middle ground to help support progressively better games.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
Well yes badges, ranks and such again could be an answer to not having a loot based reward system. And again I'm simply using EQ1 --- > EQN as my example as that was my only previous SOE title I played that was MMORPG, thus glowing effects and such was used. I personally think they distracting and annoying but hey that's just me.
But again these players are looking to feel as if they have some sort of progression and that they are somehow becoming more powerful. I'm in now way advocating that everyone should get a hand out, and EQ raiding simply through attendance was by no means a handout upgrade guarantee. But the sense of some sort of progression, on a tangible level, if that even makes sense considering we're talking virtual worlds, is part of that brand of fun.
Now stick with me here for a moment as this is hypothetical and not exactly an apples to apples comparison but rather just to show you the sense of loss and complete waste of time that full loot pvp in a gear based system seems.
Hours, days and even weeks of organization are spent organizing and executing a raid if you include the countless wipe attempts. All in the name of their brand of fun, which hitherto now has been rewarded, mostly, in one way... gear.
Now to suddenly have it taken away in an instant after untold amounts of effort and time by one misstep in a type of gameplay they did not even ask for is grounds for someone to simply feel... I don't know, perhaps lost. in either case their hard earned cookie is taken away and they are denied their sense of fun, tangible progression.
Flip that around, and here's the hypothetical part. Lets assume that the pvp crowd hate raiding as much as pve hates pvp. I know this isn't the case as I love pvp myself but also like good end game pve, if nothing else than to take part in the lore of the world. But lets assume that's the case for a moment and said game, EQN as this is in fact the game we're discussing, forces PVP players to be flagged in some way to even have PVP available to them through a large, complex time consuming raid that they don't even want to take part in. Fine, they do the nasty and go get flagged, after again untold amount of time, effort and frustration.
Now, 2 days later you get killed, and by being killed your PVP rights are taken away, along with your brand of fun, until you go through, again, countless hours, days perhaps weeks of prep/frustration to get your brand of fun back.
Sure a different reward system can solve this, but it's a matter of offering a reward that matters to that player that they cannot be denied that is in question. Or perhaps not, perhaps thinking needs to be shifted. But as we're discussing EQN, i'm assuming we will see something at least akin or in the spirit of EQ or EQN.
Anyway, time to head home, I know there will almost never be an end to the debate but I see the value of both play styles, I'm just struggling to see how a thread that goes from proposed compromises degraded to absolute right and wrong views from both sides rather than what it was titled.
I have a couple points to make. Looting off other players, leaning the power towards the PvEer, and making a challenge for the PvPer.
As a PvPer, and one who supports OWFFA PvP, looting from your victims is a TERRIBLE IDEA! The risk/reward factor in PvP is simply in the term itself! PvPers want to fight other players. In games like CoD or CS, players play simply to test their limits and to have a good time. In arena style MMOs, the majority of pvpers spend very little time grinding for gear, and the the rest of the time just PvPing for the hell of it.
The only time I've ever played an MMO where I can loot another player, was EQ1. You know what, I didn't even care about it. What I enjoyed was the unexpected gank, and then the retaliation. The fear of going to areas I'd probably get ganked at. The random battles in key farming locations, between two groups (I'm thinking about you Orc Camp in G. Faydark.) Man, I remember seeing shouts about some Dark Elf killing noobs, and I would hop on my main and hunt him down! Greatest feeling ever! It had nothing to do with the loot, and everything to do with the thrill.
Why should the PvEers have the power scale leaned towards them? Simple, in a game like EQ, I expect the BEST items to come from dungeons. Huge, massive, EPIC battles. The kind that blood, sweat, tears, and finger nails are spilled over. The kind that are so legendary, that whole marriages are broken up over. With that said, in an environment where PvEers get the best gear, the PvPers can't PK. In a OWFFA PvP setting with all the BiS gear going to the PvEer, a PvPer will have to outskill or PvE himself to be on equal ground.
PvPers thrive off honing their skills. If he/she wants to PK a PvEer who has all kinds of gear, he/she will have that challenge to hone said skills. This idea goes along with the "making a challenge for the PvPer." Gankers are usually lacking in skill and it's why they... well... gank. Most PvPers only look to fight other PvPers to hone their skills.
To conclude, I'd like to tie things together. PvEers have the best gear, so are more difficult to gank. If a PvPer tries to gank them, it will require more skill or equal gear (which actually helps the PvEers find more steady groups for dungeons) to compete. Now, you could just edit the idea and say "you can only attack players within your level range..." or, "increase guard NPCs in certain areas to reduce the amount of grief." There are loads of possibilities. Just remember that, in life, it's about progress and not perfection. In conflicts such as this, it's better to find the middle ground to help support progressively better games.
The problem is that "pvpers" are very often also "pveers." You're not creating a system that puts pvpers at some kind of disadvantage against pveers. You're just going to end up with a system that necessitates that everybody does whatever pve grind exists to have the best gear so they can stay on a level playing field.
I have a couple points to make. Looting off other players, leaning the power towards the PvEer, and making a challenge for the PvPer.
As a PvPer, and one who supports OWFFA PvP, looting from your victims is a TERRIBLE IDEA! The risk/reward factor in PvP is simply in the term itself! PvPers want to fight other players. In games like CoD or CS, players play simply to test their limits and to have a good time. In arena style MMOs, the majority of pvpers spend very little time grinding for gear, and the the rest of the time just PvPing for the hell of it.
The only time I've ever played an MMO where I can loot another player, was EQ1. You know what, I didn't even care about it. What I enjoyed was the unexpected gank, and then the retaliation. The fear of going to areas I'd probably get ganked at. The random battles in key farming locations, between two groups (I'm thinking about you Orc Camp in G. Faydark.) Man, I remember seeing shouts about some Dark Elf killing noobs, and I would hop on my main and hunt him down! Greatest feeling ever! It had nothing to do with the loot, and everything to do with the thrill.
Why should the PvEers have the power scale leaned towards them? Simple, in a game like EQ, I expect the BEST items to come from dungeons. Huge, massive, EPIC battles. The kind that blood, sweat, tears, and finger nails are spilled over. The kind that are so legendary, that whole marriages are broken up over. With that said, in an environment where PvEers get the best gear, the PvPers can't PK. In a OWFFA PvP setting with all the BiS gear going to the PvEer, a PvPer will have to outskill or PvE himself to be on equal ground.
PvPers thrive off honing their skills. If he/she wants to PK a PvEer who has all kinds of gear, he/she will have that challenge to hone said skills. This idea goes along with the "making a challenge for the PvPer." Gankers are usually lacking in skill and it's why they... well... gank. Most PvPers only look to fight other PvPers to hone their skills.
To conclude, I'd like to tie things together. PvEers have the best gear, so are more difficult to gank. If a PvPer tries to gank them, it will require more skill or equal gear (which actually helps the PvEers find more steady groups for dungeons) to compete. Now, you could just edit the idea and say "you can only attack players within your level range..." or, "increase guard NPCs in certain areas to reduce the amount of grief." There are loads of possibilities. Just remember that, in life, it's about progress and not perfection. In conflicts such as this, it's better to find the middle ground to help support progressively better games.
^ as I said, i love to test my mettle against players, often ones that perhaps may outclass me, but that's why i like pvp, that IS my reward, to test my skill, not to hunt unwilling combatants, ie cattle.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
Well yes badges, ranks and such again could be an answer to not having a loot based reward system. And again I'm simply using EQ1 --- > EQN as my example as that was my only previous SOE title I played that was MMORPG, thus glowing effects and such was used. I personally think they distracting and annoying but hey that's just me.
But again these players are looking to feel as if they have some sort of progression and that they are somehow becoming more powerful. I'm in now way advocating that everyone should get a hand out, and EQ raiding simply through attendance was by no means a handout upgrade guarantee. But the sense of some sort of progression, on a tangible level, if that even makes sense considering we're talking virtual worlds, is part of that brand of fun.
Now stick with me here for a moment as this is hypothetical and not exactly an apples to apples comparison but rather just to show you the sense of loss and complete waste of time that full loot pvp in a gear based system seems.
Hours, days and even weeks of organization are spent organizing and executing a raid if you include the countless wipe attempts. All in the name of their brand of fun, which hitherto now has been rewarded, mostly, in one way... gear.
Now to suddenly have it taken away in an instant after untold amounts of effort and time by one misstep in a type of gameplay they did not even ask for is grounds for someone to simply feel... I don't know, perhaps lost. in either case their hard earned cookie is taken away and they are denied their sense of fun, tangible progression.
I'm confused. I'm not advocating for a full loot game that also has some kind of gear grind. Full loot games probably wouldn't work in a game with heavy gear grind. That's the point of what I'm saying.
I don't think you should spend days, weeks, months or years working on some pve raid to end up with 1 really powerful piece of equipment. If it's a full loot game, it has to be less dependent on 1 single piece of equipment. The rewards for pve should be RESOURCES. Imagine if you got a huge amount of gold. You'd spend a portion of that gold on gear to wear. That way you wouldn't waste days, weeks, months, whatever just to lose your reward because you wouldn't have your whole reward on you at any one time.
If it's a game with city building/sieging/etc the rewards could even be related to that, so you can have really important expensive rewards but you wouldn't lose it in pvp, it would go towards building your city.
Flip that around, and here's the hypothetical part. Lets assume that the pvp crowd hate raiding as much as pve hates pvp. I know this isn't the case as I love pvp myself but also like good end game pve, if nothing else than to take part in the lore of the world. But lets assume that's the case for a moment and said game, EQN as this is in fact the game we're discussing, forces PVP players to be flagged in some way to even have PVP available to them through a large, complex time consuming raid that they don't even want to take part in. Fine, they do the nasty and go get flagged, after again untold amount of time, effort and frustration.
Now, 2 days later you get killed, and by being killed your PVP rights are taken away, along with your brand of fun, until you go through, again, countless hours, days perhaps weeks of prep/frustration to get your brand of fun back.
Sure a different reward system can solve this, but it's a matter of offering a reward that matters to that player that they cannot be denied that is in question. Or perhaps not, perhaps thinking needs to be shifted. But as we're discussing EQN, i'm assuming we will see something at least akin or in the spirit of EQ or EQN.
Anyway, time to head home, I know there will almost never be an end to the debate but I see the value of both play styles, I'm just struggling to see how a thread that goes from proposed compromises degraded to absolute right and wrong views from both sides rather than what it was titled.
So you're talking about a system where the reward for some pve raid is the ability to flag yourself for pvp? And people can't pvp unless they do said raid? I'm not sure of the point but I assume you're offering this hypothetical system as an example of why it would be unfair to do the same to the pve player. I agree which is why I'm not advocating a system like that.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
Well yes badges, ranks and such again could be an answer to not having a loot based reward system. And again I'm simply using EQ1 --- > EQN as my example as that was my only previous SOE title I played that was MMORPG, thus glowing effects and such was used. I personally think they distracting and annoying but hey that's just me.
But again these players are looking to feel as if they have some sort of progression and that they are somehow becoming more powerful. I'm in now way advocating that everyone should get a hand out, and EQ raiding simply through attendance was by no means a handout upgrade guarantee. But the sense of some sort of progression, on a tangible level, if that even makes sense considering we're talking virtual worlds, is part of that brand of fun.
Now stick with me here for a moment as this is hypothetical and not exactly an apples to apples comparison but rather just to show you the sense of loss and complete waste of time that full loot pvp in a gear based system seems.
Hours, days and even weeks of organization are spent organizing and executing a raid if you include the countless wipe attempts. All in the name of their brand of fun, which hitherto now has been rewarded, mostly, in one way... gear.
Now to suddenly have it taken away in an instant after untold amounts of effort and time by one misstep in a type of gameplay they did not even ask for is grounds for someone to simply feel... I don't know, perhaps lost. in either case their hard earned cookie is taken away and they are denied their sense of fun, tangible progression.
I'm confused. I'm not advocating for a full loot game that also has some kind of gear grind. Full loot games probably wouldn't work in a game with heavy gear grind. That's the point of what I'm saying.
I don't think you should spend days, weeks, months or years working on some pve raid to end up with 1 really powerful piece of equipment. If it's a full loot game, it has to be less dependent on 1 single piece of equipment. The rewards for pve should be RESOURCES. Imagine if you got a huge amount of gold. You'd spend a portion of that gold on gear to wear. That way you wouldn't waste days, weeks, months, whatever just to lose your reward because you wouldn't have your whole reward on you at any one time.
If it's a game with city building/sieging/etc the rewards could even be related to that, so you can have really important expensive rewards but you wouldn't lose it in pvp, it would go towards building your city.
Flip that around, and here's the hypothetical part. Lets assume that the pvp crowd hate raiding as much as pve hates pvp. I know this isn't the case as I love pvp myself but also like good end game pve, if nothing else than to take part in the lore of the world. But lets assume that's the case for a moment and said game, EQN as this is in fact the game we're discussing, forces PVP players to be flagged in some way to even have PVP available to them through a large, complex time consuming raid that they don't even want to take part in. Fine, they do the nasty and go get flagged, after again untold amount of time, effort and frustration.
Now, 2 days later you get killed, and by being killed your PVP rights are taken away, along with your brand of fun, until you go through, again, countless hours, days perhaps weeks of prep/frustration to get your brand of fun back.
Sure a different reward system can solve this, but it's a matter of offering a reward that matters to that player that they cannot be denied that is in question. Or perhaps not, perhaps thinking needs to be shifted. But as we're discussing EQN, i'm assuming we will see something at least akin or in the spirit of EQ or EQN.
Anyway, time to head home, I know there will almost never be an end to the debate but I see the value of both play styles, I'm just struggling to see how a thread that goes from proposed compromises degraded to absolute right and wrong views from both sides rather than what it was titled.
So you're talking about a system where the reward for some pve raid is the ability to flag yourself for pvp? And people can't pvp unless they do said raid? I'm not sure of the point but I assume you're offering this hypothetical system as an example of why it would be unfair to do the same to the pve player. I agree which is why I'm not advocating a system like that.
I was simply offering this example so people would understand the sense of well senselessness of it all that full loot in a loot based system brings to PVErs and why they would rather not bother participating in PVP at all... not really proposing a system.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away ... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
Going to just leave with one last comment, I really need to head home and attend to personal stuff.
I love MMORPGS, I love the exploration, the lore and the adventure (and yes in my adventure there are other sentient beings that I can battle with). But I also like my pve reward cookies for taking down a dragon/god/whatever else takes an army to achieve. that last bit strikes at the heart of epic adventure that i've loved since D&D and other RPGS. And if they make raiding not so god awful time consuming and just plain hard for the sake of the challenge then great, I will revisit that content with competent players if it's stripped from me through pvp. My perfect RPG is a cake and it has many layers. And like a cake i want more than just the frosting layer. But as many others in countless threads have said we'll all know come this weekend.
I just hope that PVP first, has a purpose, since we're almost 100% confirmed it exists, second has a substantial impact on the world AND enriches it (if even only through the perpetuation of crafting as some have stated)... but again hopes should be kept in reign as nobody yet knows whats coming. Here's to hoping they figure out the PVE&PVP formula!
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
Well yes badges, ranks and such again could be an answer to not having a loot based reward system. And again I'm simply using EQ1 --- > EQN as my example as that was my only previous SOE title I played that was MMORPG, thus glowing effects and such was used. I personally think they distracting and annoying but hey that's just me.
But again these players are looking to feel as if they have some sort of progression and that they are somehow becoming more powerful. I'm in now way advocating that everyone should get a hand out, and EQ raiding simply through attendance was by no means a handout upgrade guarantee. But the sense of some sort of progression, on a tangible level, if that even makes sense considering we're talking virtual worlds, is part of that brand of fun.
Now stick with me here for a moment as this is hypothetical and not exactly an apples to apples comparison but rather just to show you the sense of loss and complete waste of time that full loot pvp in a gear based system seems.
Hours, days and even weeks of organization are spent organizing and executing a raid if you include the countless wipe attempts. All in the name of their brand of fun, which hitherto now has been rewarded, mostly, in one way... gear.
Now to suddenly have it taken away in an instant after untold amounts of effort and time by one misstep in a type of gameplay they did not even ask for is grounds for someone to simply feel... I don't know, perhaps lost. in either case their hard earned cookie is taken away and they are denied their sense of fun, tangible progression.
I'm confused. I'm not advocating for a full loot game that also has some kind of gear grind. Full loot games probably wouldn't work in a game with heavy gear grind. That's the point of what I'm saying.
I don't think you should spend days, weeks, months or years working on some pve raid to end up with 1 really powerful piece of equipment. If it's a full loot game, it has to be less dependent on 1 single piece of equipment. The rewards for pve should be RESOURCES. Imagine if you got a huge amount of gold. You'd spend a portion of that gold on gear to wear. That way you wouldn't waste days, weeks, months, whatever just to lose your reward because you wouldn't have your whole reward on you at any one time.
If it's a game with city building/sieging/etc the rewards could even be related to that, so you can have really important expensive rewards but you wouldn't lose it in pvp, it would go towards building your city.
Flip that around, and here's the hypothetical part. Lets assume that the pvp crowd hate raiding as much as pve hates pvp. I know this isn't the case as I love pvp myself but also like good end game pve, if nothing else than to take part in the lore of the world. But lets assume that's the case for a moment and said game, EQN as this is in fact the game we're discussing, forces PVP players to be flagged in some way to even have PVP available to them through a large, complex time consuming raid that they don't even want to take part in. Fine, they do the nasty and go get flagged, after again untold amount of time, effort and frustration.
Now, 2 days later you get killed, and by being killed your PVP rights are taken away, along with your brand of fun, until you go through, again, countless hours, days perhaps weeks of prep/frustration to get your brand of fun back.
Sure a different reward system can solve this, but it's a matter of offering a reward that matters to that player that they cannot be denied that is in question. Or perhaps not, perhaps thinking needs to be shifted. But as we're discussing EQN, i'm assuming we will see something at least akin or in the spirit of EQ or EQN.
Anyway, time to head home, I know there will almost never be an end to the debate but I see the value of both play styles, I'm just struggling to see how a thread that goes from proposed compromises degraded to absolute right and wrong views from both sides rather than what it was titled.
So you're talking about a system where the reward for some pve raid is the ability to flag yourself for pvp? And people can't pvp unless they do said raid? I'm not sure of the point but I assume you're offering this hypothetical system as an example of why it would be unfair to do the same to the pve player. I agree which is why I'm not advocating a system like that.
I was simply offering this example so people would understand the sense of well senselessness of it all that full loot in a loot based system brings to PVErs and why they would rather not bother participating in PVP at all... not really proposing a system.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away ... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
Yes, a gear based system would probably be incompatible with a full loot game. I don't think anybody is advocating such a system.
I understand that some people prefer the carrot on a stick type of game design where players are always grinding towards the next landmark, but many of us believe that's just to cover up for bad game design.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away ... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
The ability to amass wealth, a great deal of amassed wealth, and the knowledge on how that wealth can be amassed along with the connections and resources to make the wealth amassing happen again should it be needed -- its all something I personally do consider tangible that can't be taken away from a player that has earned it.
It is very much a perspective issue though and I do see how many players would disagree.
But things many players clamor for more of in games, community, lasting reputation, having a name for one's self.
This sort of system where players don't just help each other on their road to success but are constantly dependent on one another to sustain their success.. This sort of non-permanent gear system is extremely conducive to what so many players claim to want in a game, yet will not pay this particular price to have.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away ... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
The ability to amass wealth, a great deal of amassed wealth, and the knowledge on how that wealth can be amassed along with the connections and resources to make the wealth amassing happen again should it be needed -- its all something I personally do consider tangible that can't be taken away from a player that has earned it.
It is very much a perspective issue though and I do see how many players would disagree.
But things many players clamor for more of in games, community, lasting reputation, having a name for one's self.
This sort of system where players don't just help each other on their road to success but are constantly dependent on one another to sustain their success.. This sort of non-permanent gear system is extremely conducive to what so many players claim to want in a game, yet will not pay this particular price to have.
Agreed, but i'm more arguing that as SOE has stated that THIS particular game will in some way be more akin to EQ/EQ2 of the past ( which includes next to no pvp or it being an afterthought, interlocking class dynamics and a "carrot on a stick" in whatever form you want ) and seems to mostly be changing the way the players interact with the world and the NPCs within it and not the above stated. We should at least keep in mind that those are the parameters we can expect to hypothesize within.
Sure they stated there will be pvp, but I don't expect SOE to rebrand the game to make it so drastically PVP centric. Especially considering Smed has stated that there are things they are trying to avoid which they consider bad design decisions (in not so many words mind you).
I'm simply trying to imagine a system within which i know SOE and EQ in general might work within.
But yes, things are and should be a changin' and i've heard a lot of good ideas today. Hopefully they at least take a step in the right direction. Hell hats off them to them for, maybe, taking a previously mostly, and nearly the flagship of, PVE title and even allowing owpvp.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away ... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
The ability to amass wealth, a great deal of amassed wealth, and the knowledge on how that wealth can be amassed along with the connections and resources to make the wealth amassing happen again should it be needed -- its all something I personally do consider tangible that can't be taken away from a player that has earned it.
It is very much a perspective issue though and I do see how many players would disagree.
But things many players clamor for more of in games, community, lasting reputation, having a name for one's self.
This sort of system where players don't just help each other on their road to success but are constantly dependent on one another to sustain their success.. This sort of non-permanent gear system is extremely conducive to what so many players claim to want in a game, yet will not pay this particular price to have.
Good thoughts.
There's also Gallus' ideas around horizontal progression. So let's say I'm not "levelling up" in the sense that my abilities are outputting more damage - that would be vertical progression - but I open up new abilities that have different tactical advantages in different situations.
Why not just use the original Everquest pvp mechanic or something similar. if you want to promote pvp go to a priest of discord and flag yourself as a permanant pvper , then your name turns red.
You can only attack other red name players , but everyone can attack you.
Any non pvp flagged person that attacks you gets a temporary pvp flag for like an hour or so , not something that disappears in 5 min.
Only permanant pvp flagged plaers can OWN the land that is able to be fought over between players.
With this people who never want to pvp are protected forever. Ganking is eliminated.
Players can have their pvp contested fights and battle over land, and normal players can join in to help when they want to as well
Make that player controlled territory something that would convince normal players to want to pvp ,beyond just haha I killed you and took your keep .
edit: Oh , and how about having Deity related quests , both linear and dynamic.
Like if you follow cazic-thule , you might get quests that lead you to destroying whatnot.
if you follow Tunare, you might get quests to plant forests etc
if a pvp territory controlled by players who follow the same god as you is under attack , you might get a godly message that urges you to go help and you will not go unrewarded.
Why not just use the original Everquest pvp mechanic or something similar. if you want to promote pvp go to a priest of discord and flag yourself as a permanant pvper , then your name turns red.
You can only attack other red name players , but everyone can attack you.
Any non pvp flagged person that attacks you gets a temporary pvp flag for like an hour or so , not something that disappears in 5 min.
Only permanant pvp flagged plaers can OWN the land that is able to be fought over between players.
With this people who never want to pvp are protected forever. Ganking is eliminated.
Players can have their pvp contested fights and battle over land, and normal players can join in to help when they want to as well
Make that player controlled territory something that would convince normal players to want to pvp ,beyond just haha I killed you and took your keep .
I don't blame you for not reading the 70 pages leading up to this point but the answer to your question ("why not just....") lies within these pages dozens of times.
Basically the long and short of it is we want a game with risk and reward. If you can choose not to pvp, then there's no risk. The people advocating for ow pvp don't do it simply because they want to fight, they do it because they (we) believe it will lead to deeper gameplay.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
This is how I feel about the risk posed by PVE:
Haha off topic: I freaking love that game.... bl2 more than bl1.
on topic: yeah I just have never played a game that's given me that same rush/thrill.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
And thats where you are wrong. I watch a thriller movie thats PG13 and goto bed and my wife does not sleep well for 3 nights. Same with MMOing the thrill my wife gets from PvE is at the level of rush she is having fun. The rush of PvP and she gets upset and logs off. We all have a level of rush we enjoy. I love jumpping out of planes. My wife thinks a bike ride is a rush going down a hill.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
And thats where you are wrong. I watch a thriller movie thats PG13 and goto bed and my wife does not sleep well for 3 nights. Same with MMOing the thrill my wife gets from PvE is at the level of rush she is having fun. The rush of PvP and she gets upset and logs off. We all have a level of rush we enjoy. I love jumpping out of planes. My wife thinks a bike ride is a rush going down a hill.
We all like to game our own speed.
Not sure how I can be wrong about the feelings I get when I play a game.
If you're suggesting that there's less of a thrill with pve and that's ok with some people, I agree with you. That's actually my exact position.
And thats where you are wrong. I watch a thriller movie thats PG13 and goto bed and my wife does not sleep well for 3 nights. Same with MMOing the thrill my wife gets from PvE is at the level of rush she is having fun. The rush of PvP and she gets upset and logs off. We all have a level of rush we enjoy. I love jumpping out of planes. My wife thinks a bike ride is a rush going down a hill.
We all like to game at our own speed.
Not every MMORPG needs to be Disney movie so your wife can play it. Problem solved.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
And thats where you are wrong. I watch a thriller movie thats PG13 and goto bed and my wife does not sleep well for 3 nights. Same with MMOing the thrill my wife gets from PvE is at the level of rush she is having fun. The rush of PvP and she gets upset and logs off. We all have a level of rush we enjoy. I love jumpping out of planes. My wife thinks a bike ride is a rush going down a hill.
We all like to game our own speed.
Not sure how I can be wrong about the feelings I get when I play a game.
If you're suggesting that there's less of a thrill with pve and that's ok with some people, I agree with you. That's actually my exact position.
Sorry if I read your post wrong. Im a huge fan of PvP but alot of PvPers seem to feel PvEers are wimps and I find that stand to be very thin.
Comments
Seen through the eyes of someone that wants no instances in a game, I would say that is a compromise. Compromise is not about steak or pizza, it's about letting a few things go here and then there so that we can come to agreement on a game we would all like. So you think that's not a big compromise I get that, but for a lot of PvP players that don't want to have instances I can tell you it's pretty big for us.
Still there are so many mechanics that accompany instances or open world PvP, that you can't take this one part and start talking about steak vs pizza. Remember my whole dialogue is about PvP and how PvE could be implemented in a PvP game. This isn't about how to create great PvE with an add on of good PvP.
Simple, gold and materials. In DFUW a large portion of my clan (about 30 members or so) took on the hardest mob in the game. In an ow pvp full loot game. Granted the loot tables in the game kind of SUCK at the moment so the reward wasn't worth it, but that can be tweaked easily. To make the best gear in the game you need to have materials that only drop from high-end mobs.
---
again sorry, I generally just read forums and rarely post, so I just cut and paste your bit as it seemed to be getting a bit long including everything prior.
I don't see that as a solution honestly, you're negating hours, days or perhaps weeks of preparation and execution on their part when they don't even want to participate in that type of play. Easing them into it might be a better solution. like, as i said offering some other form of reward other than loot or the means to make such. something they can still hold as a badge of honor for a job well done that isn't negated after one bad encounter with another player/group/guild. And who knows they may even like it, but nobody likes to be trivialized or feel that their time isn't important. So easing them in seems to be a better solution than forcing them.
I know that people want this game to include their most cherished parts of the MMO or sandbox experience but... baby steps are sometimes the best.
I'm just telling you how it would work. You say there needs to be a reward, I say there can be vast rewards even in a game without glowing swords and flaming spikey armor. Insignificant things like badges, ranks, etc are fine too as long as they don't affect gameplay.
This isn't even a PvP vs PvE issue in my mind. I would love to get rid of gear drops in raids in all games and go to a system where the rewards are high end materials. The single best reason is to make crafting an actual worthwhile profession. I will take EQ2 as an example, on PvE servers; after awhile there is no actual need for the crafter to make armor if the best gear in game is raid dropped. By changing the rewards to be materials (even if they can't be looted as a PvP) it gives the crafter a continuing profession.
I have a couple points to make. Looting off other players, leaning the power towards the PvEer, and making a challenge for the PvPer.
As a PvPer, and one who supports OWFFA PvP, looting from your victims is a TERRIBLE IDEA! The risk/reward factor in PvP is simply in the term itself! PvPers want to fight other players. In games like CoD or CS, players play simply to test their limits and to have a good time. In arena style MMOs, the majority of pvpers spend very little time grinding for gear, and the the rest of the time just PvPing for the hell of it.
The only time I've ever played an MMO where I can loot another player, was EQ1. You know what, I didn't even care about it. What I enjoyed was the unexpected gank, and then the retaliation. The fear of going to areas I'd probably get ganked at. The random battles in key farming locations, between two groups (I'm thinking about you Orc Camp in G. Faydark.) Man, I remember seeing shouts about some Dark Elf killing noobs, and I would hop on my main and hunt him down! Greatest feeling ever! It had nothing to do with the loot, and everything to do with the thrill.
Why should the PvEers have the power scale leaned towards them? Simple, in a game like EQ, I expect the BEST items to come from dungeons. Huge, massive, EPIC battles. The kind that blood, sweat, tears, and finger nails are spilled over. The kind that are so legendary, that whole marriages are broken up over. With that said, in an environment where PvEers get the best gear, the PvPers can't PK. In a OWFFA PvP setting with all the BiS gear going to the PvEer, a PvPer will have to outskill or PvE himself to be on equal ground.
PvPers thrive off honing their skills. If he/she wants to PK a PvEer who has all kinds of gear, he/she will have that challenge to hone said skills. This idea goes along with the "making a challenge for the PvPer." Gankers are usually lacking in skill and it's why they... well... gank. Most PvPers only look to fight other PvPers to hone their skills.
To conclude, I'd like to tie things together. PvEers have the best gear, so are more difficult to gank. If a PvPer tries to gank them, it will require more skill or equal gear (which actually helps the PvEers find more steady groups for dungeons) to compete. Now, you could just edit the idea and say "you can only attack players within your level range..." or, "increase guard NPCs in certain areas to reduce the amount of grief." There are loads of possibilities. Just remember that, in life, it's about progress and not perfection. In conflicts such as this, it's better to find the middle ground to help support progressively better games.
Well yes badges, ranks and such again could be an answer to not having a loot based reward system. And again I'm simply using EQ1 --- > EQN as my example as that was my only previous SOE title I played that was MMORPG, thus glowing effects and such was used. I personally think they distracting and annoying but hey that's just me.
But again these players are looking to feel as if they have some sort of progression and that they are somehow becoming more powerful. I'm in now way advocating that everyone should get a hand out, and EQ raiding simply through attendance was by no means a handout upgrade guarantee. But the sense of some sort of progression, on a tangible level, if that even makes sense considering we're talking virtual worlds, is part of that brand of fun.
Now stick with me here for a moment as this is hypothetical and not exactly an apples to apples comparison but rather just to show you the sense of loss and complete waste of time that full loot pvp in a gear based system seems.
Hours, days and even weeks of organization are spent organizing and executing a raid if you include the countless wipe attempts. All in the name of their brand of fun, which hitherto now has been rewarded, mostly, in one way... gear.
Now to suddenly have it taken away in an instant after untold amounts of effort and time by one misstep in a type of gameplay they did not even ask for is grounds for someone to simply feel... I don't know, perhaps lost. in either case their hard earned cookie is taken away and they are denied their sense of fun, tangible progression.
Flip that around, and here's the hypothetical part. Lets assume that the pvp crowd hate raiding as much as pve hates pvp. I know this isn't the case as I love pvp myself but also like good end game pve, if nothing else than to take part in the lore of the world. But lets assume that's the case for a moment and said game, EQN as this is in fact the game we're discussing, forces PVP players to be flagged in some way to even have PVP available to them through a large, complex time consuming raid that they don't even want to take part in. Fine, they do the nasty and go get flagged, after again untold amount of time, effort and frustration.
Now, 2 days later you get killed, and by being killed your PVP rights are taken away, along with your brand of fun, until you go through, again, countless hours, days perhaps weeks of prep/frustration to get your brand of fun back.
Sure a different reward system can solve this, but it's a matter of offering a reward that matters to that player that they cannot be denied that is in question. Or perhaps not, perhaps thinking needs to be shifted. But as we're discussing EQN, i'm assuming we will see something at least akin or in the spirit of EQ or EQN.
Anyway, time to head home, I know there will almost never be an end to the debate but I see the value of both play styles, I'm just struggling to see how a thread that goes from proposed compromises degraded to absolute right and wrong views from both sides rather than what it was titled.
The problem is that "pvpers" are very often also "pveers." You're not creating a system that puts pvpers at some kind of disadvantage against pveers. You're just going to end up with a system that necessitates that everybody does whatever pve grind exists to have the best gear so they can stay on a level playing field.
^ as I said, i love to test my mettle against players, often ones that perhaps may outclass me, but that's why i like pvp, that IS my reward, to test my skill, not to hunt unwilling combatants, ie cattle.
I'm confused. I'm not advocating for a full loot game that also has some kind of gear grind. Full loot games probably wouldn't work in a game with heavy gear grind. That's the point of what I'm saying.
I don't think you should spend days, weeks, months or years working on some pve raid to end up with 1 really powerful piece of equipment. If it's a full loot game, it has to be less dependent on 1 single piece of equipment. The rewards for pve should be RESOURCES. Imagine if you got a huge amount of gold. You'd spend a portion of that gold on gear to wear. That way you wouldn't waste days, weeks, months, whatever just to lose your reward because you wouldn't have your whole reward on you at any one time.
If it's a game with city building/sieging/etc the rewards could even be related to that, so you can have really important expensive rewards but you wouldn't lose it in pvp, it would go towards building your city.
So you're talking about a system where the reward for some pve raid is the ability to flag yourself for pvp? And people can't pvp unless they do said raid? I'm not sure of the point but I assume you're offering this hypothetical system as an example of why it would be unfair to do the same to the pve player. I agree which is why I'm not advocating a system like that.
I was simply offering this example so people would understand the sense of well senselessness of it all that full loot in a loot based system brings to PVErs and why they would rather not bother participating in PVP at all... not really proposing a system.
And yes I agree having gear not be the focus of raids would be great, but again most pvers are looking for something tangible that cant be taken away from them, something permanent. I suppose you can't have both exist is the take away
... or again offer something they can keep and feels like progression that isn't horribly unbalanced that isn't gear/loot (gold, items for crafting and whatnot, because again these can be stripped away)
Going to just leave with one last comment, I really need to head home and attend to personal stuff.
I love MMORPGS, I love the exploration, the lore and the adventure (and yes in my adventure there are other sentient beings that I can battle with). But I also like my pve reward cookies for taking down a dragon/god/whatever else takes an army to achieve. that last bit strikes at the heart of epic adventure that i've loved since D&D and other RPGS. And if they make raiding not so god awful time consuming and just plain hard for the sake of the challenge then great, I will revisit that content with competent players if it's stripped from me through pvp. My perfect RPG is a cake and it has many layers. And like a cake i want more than just the frosting layer. But as many others in countless threads have said we'll all know come this weekend.
I just hope that PVP first, has a purpose, since we're almost 100% confirmed it exists, second has a substantial impact on the world AND enriches it (if even only through the perpetuation of crafting as some have stated)... but again hopes should be kept in reign as nobody yet knows whats coming. Here's to hoping they figure out the PVE&PVP formula!
Yes, a gear based system would probably be incompatible with a full loot game. I don't think anybody is advocating such a system.
I understand that some people prefer the carrot on a stick type of game design where players are always grinding towards the next landmark, but many of us believe that's just to cover up for bad game design.
The ability to amass wealth, a great deal of amassed wealth, and the knowledge on how that wealth can be amassed along with the connections and resources to make the wealth amassing happen again should it be needed -- its all something I personally do consider tangible that can't be taken away from a player that has earned it.
It is very much a perspective issue though and I do see how many players would disagree.
But things many players clamor for more of in games, community, lasting reputation, having a name for one's self.
This sort of system where players don't just help each other on their road to success but are constantly dependent on one another to sustain their success.. This sort of non-permanent gear system is extremely conducive to what so many players claim to want in a game, yet will not pay this particular price to have.
Good thoughts.
There's also Gallus' ideas around horizontal progression. So let's say I'm not "levelling up" in the sense that my abilities are outputting more damage - that would be vertical progression - but I open up new abilities that have different tactical advantages in different situations.
Why not just use the original Everquest pvp mechanic or something similar. if you want to promote pvp go to a priest of discord and flag yourself as a permanant pvper , then your name turns red.
You can only attack other red name players , but everyone can attack you.
Any non pvp flagged person that attacks you gets a temporary pvp flag for like an hour or so , not something that disappears in 5 min.
Only permanant pvp flagged plaers can OWN the land that is able to be fought over between players.
With this people who never want to pvp are protected forever. Ganking is eliminated.
Players can have their pvp contested fights and battle over land, and normal players can join in to help when they want to as well
Make that player controlled territory something that would convince normal players to want to pvp ,beyond just haha I killed you and took your keep .
edit: Oh , and how about having Deity related quests , both linear and dynamic.
Like if you follow cazic-thule , you might get quests that lead you to destroying whatnot.
if you follow Tunare, you might get quests to plant forests etc
if a pvp territory controlled by players who follow the same god as you is under attack , you might get a godly message that urges you to go help and you will not go unrewarded.
etc
I don't blame you for not reading the 70 pages leading up to this point but the answer to your question ("why not just....") lies within these pages dozens of times.
Basically the long and short of it is we want a game with risk and reward. If you can choose not to pvp, then there's no risk. The people advocating for ow pvp don't do it simply because they want to fight, they do it because they (we) believe it will lead to deeper gameplay.
But there is risk if you dont pvp . Its just risk vrs the environment. The risk doesn't have to be exactly the same for everyone in the game to be just as important for everyone.
If there IS unlimited pvp , there needs to be some sort of anti griefing measures in place
I've never played a non-ow pvp MMO that gives me the same thrill and excitement as an ow pvp one. Whatever feeling you'd like to call it, that's what we want.
Besides, you can't have the same kind of risk with pve. Even if you had a system where dying to a mob causes you to lose some items or whatever. That'll never perfectly emulate what you get when there are players involved. You'll never have the same politics or reputation elements. There are even times I've died to mobs and had to res and run back to my body.... blood pumping in anticipation to see if anybody has looted my corpse.
This is how I feel about the risk posed by PVE:
Haha off topic: I freaking love that game.... bl2 more than bl1.
on topic: yeah I just have never played a game that's given me that same rush/thrill.
And thats where you are wrong. I watch a thriller movie thats PG13 and goto bed and my wife does not sleep well for 3 nights. Same with MMOing the thrill my wife gets from PvE is at the level of rush she is having fun. The rush of PvP and she gets upset and logs off. We all have a level of rush we enjoy. I love jumpping out of planes. My wife thinks a bike ride is a rush going down a hill.
We all like to game at our own speed.
Not sure how I can be wrong about the feelings I get when I play a game.
If you're suggesting that there's less of a thrill with pve and that's ok with some people, I agree with you. That's actually my exact position.
Not every MMORPG needs to be Disney movie so your wife can play it. Problem solved.
Sorry if I read your post wrong. Im a huge fan of PvP but alot of PvPers seem to feel PvEers are wimps and I find that stand to be very thin.