Would a difficulty setting solve the casual vs. hardcore dilemma?
I was under the impression that it wasn't difficulty that separated the casual from hardcore but the playing time the person could dedicate. I consider myself a casual gamer because I can only play a couple of hours per week, but I want the content to be as difficult as possible.
While I wouldn't like to see it done as stated here, I could support the following extra types of servers.
1) All Raid Mobs are now Group Mobs. Group Mobs are duoable(just solo mobs with maybe some extra abilities). Raids can not be formed.
2) Most or All Solo Mobs are group mobs without extra special abilities. All Group mobs become easy raid targets, and raid mobs are given some kind of bonus(say made 2 levels higher including the loot).
Hence if you have no interest in raids, you can choose one of the non-raid servers and if you have no interest in solo, you can choose the group heavy server.
The way things work currently EQ2 is just fine - content varies in difficulty from stupidly easy to extremely challenging.
EQ2 was fine.... hardly... I spent the better part of 6 months of the last year trying to build a solid Guild in EQ2 and the lack of challenge drove folks away. Such a HUGE game with so much cool group content ruined / nerfed into oblivion.
Sadly the game was completely gutted a year after release and streamlined to be a casual solo game. Monsters were rebalanced a number of times until they no longer posed a threat to solo players and even Heroic Group scaled monsters were weakened to the point where you could solo them easily with a Merc.
Our Guild tried to keep things interesting for our 80+ active players as we leveled to 95 but sadly 99 % of the content has been trivialized except for the handful of newest content at the edge of max level. There was so little fun/challenge content left most people quit a few weeks into the mindless facerolling grind at around 50-60
While I wouldn't like to see it done as stated here, I could support the following extra types of servers.
1) All Raid Mobs are now Group Mobs. Group Mobs are duoable(just solo mobs with maybe some extra abilities). Raids can not be formed.
2) Most or All Solo Mobs are group mobs without extra special abilities. All Group mobs become easy raid targets, and raid mobs are given some kind of bonus(say made 2 levels higher including the loot).
Hence if you have no interest in raids, you can choose one of the non-raid servers and if you have no interest in solo, you can choose the group heavy server.
For your number 1 example there are already games like that.. a ton of them.. Not only MMORPG but ARPGs.. Diablo, PoE, Torchlight, Marvel Heroes...ETC ETC ETC.. Why does every MMORPG have to play like its made for special ed students? My question is why do you want to play an mmo if you dont want to be around people or be around very few people?
Originally posted by KingsField Single player and co-op games have had difficulty settings (easy, normal, hard, etc.) for decades. What if EverQuest Next had something similar? At the very least, I envision an advanced server type that alters the strength of MOBs, the death penalty, etc. to suit the desires of hardcore players who crave that old-school MMORPG feeling. Should players be allowed to segregate themselves like this or do you prefer a one-size-fits-all approach to difficulty?
I don't think this would solve the problem. IMO, the hard core vs casual is not just about challenge. There are sides who want things to take a long time and the other side that wants it now/fast. IMO, generally the hardcore want it for everyone. I personally hate wows 15 minute dungeon run. I would love to see a game that takes 9 months for the first person to reach cap.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Difficulty should be build into the world, more risk more reward, take a long time and do it safely or take chances. Something for everyone, check out a game called Everquest, it had all this.
There are a hell of a lot of new accounts being created to make polls on game mechanics, which makes me wonder if this is some new trend or just one or two dudes with an agenda.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't imagine anything that would cause gamers to cease posing on forums.
The practice has existed as long as electronic games. The first guy that ever won a pong match played on osilloscope ran in circles saying "I yam so much more hardcore than U R, in your face".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Loktofeit There are a hell of a lot of new accounts being created to make polls on game mechanics, which makes me wonder if this is some new trend or just one or two dudes with an agenda.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by flizzer The hardcore types are never satisfied unless everyone plays their way.
I have been accused as being a hardcore type.. and I don't care if everyone plays my way.
But I do care if the game devalues my hardcore risk and effort by handing the same rewards to others that chose the casual, easy non-risk play style.
Difficulty is relative to the player and their skillsets. If the provided casual content is as challenging to a casual player as hardcore content is to a hardcore player, then the rewards should be the same, otherwise you are promoting preferential treatment to one play style over another, which is not fine if you intend to cater to both within your game.
These kinds of prevailing attitudes from both hardcore gamers and their developer friends is why I'm so damned tired of MMOs trying to cater to more than one play style in their games. They not only breed elitism, but also promote contempt for "lesser" play styles and the gamers who prefer them.
Well one of the games I play is Fallen Earth. And it is certainly not linear. If I want more difficulty, all I have to do is move to a more difficult area on the map. Totally my choice, and completely the same content as everyone else plays. I think you could say EVE is the same way. Choose your difficulty by allowing players to access all areas of the game at the start.
Probably why FE has kept me entertained for 8 months. I die a lot !!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by flizzer The hardcore types are never satisfied unless everyone plays their way.
I have been accused as being a hardcore type.. and I don't care if everyone plays my way.
But I do care if the game devalues my hardcore risk and effort by handing the same rewards to others that chose the casual, easy non-risk play style.
Difficulty is relative to the player and their skillsets. If the provided casual content is as challenging to a casual player as hardcore content is to a hardcore player, then the rewards should be the same, otherwise you are promoting preferential treatment to one play style over another, which is not fine if you intend to cater to both within your game.
These kinds of prevailing attitudes from both hardcore gamers and their developer friends is why I'm so damned tired of MMOs trying to cater to more than one play style in their games. They not only breed elitism, but also promote contempt for "lesser" play styles and the gamers who prefer them.
Perhaps I am bit competitive but it is foolish to think that rewards should be the same. If someone has a particular skill, puts in more effort or is simply luckier than others they should be more successful.
I am at a loss to understand what games you play that somehow circumvent the fundamental concept of competition.
What games did you play growing up that somehow managed to nullify any advantages based on skill or effort and always ended in a draw, since someone winning would "breed elitism" and "contempt for lesser play styles" aka losers.
The way things work currently EQ2 is just fine - content varies in difficulty from stupidly easy to extremely challenging.
EQ2 was fine.... hardly... I spent the better part of 6 months of the last year trying to build a solid Guild in EQ2 and the lack of challenge drove folks away.
Out of 300 or so guilds that bother to report their progress, exactly THREE guilds worldwide have been able to defeat the most challenging content in EQ2. That is under 100 people out of tens (or hundreds?) of thousands. And it's not because they're not trying. So if people aren't finding challenging content, it's because they aren't looking in the right places. And if raid content isn't enough, there are new duo instances that i'm pretty sure less than 1% of the population has completed because of the extreme level of challenge involved. I think your mistake was trying to BUILD a guild rather than just joining an existing guild. The game
Sadly the game was completely gutted a year after release and streamlined to be a casual solo game. Monsters were rebalanced a number of times until they no longer posed a threat to solo players and even Heroic Group scaled monsters were weakened to the point where you could solo them easily with a Merc.
Uhm.. the game wasn't gutted a year after release, a year after release DoF came out, which was so difficult that half the tanks quit the game because everything was one-shotting them. After that came KoS, which was probably the best expac in EQ2 and had tons of challenging heroic content and the best shared group dungeons EQ2 had ever seen. Tt wasn't until about 2 expacs ago that overland heroic content stopped being made (which is truly sad, but it is what it is).
most people quit a few weeks into the mindless facerolling grind at around 50-60
Well, that's just a sign of the game being 9 years old. 50-60 simply isn't relevant anymore, it's been - as you point out - trivialized and made easy. The reason that was done, was specifically to ease the "facerolling grind" that you mention. Btw, the "facerolling grind of 50-60" takes about 2 hours in a dungeon. I think you guys made the mistake of thinking that 50-60 content was still relevant when it's simply not. The challenge of the game is at cap. Is that "good design"? I dunno, probably not. But the game is 9 years old and the developers have to focus on content that EVERYONE will eventually do - and that is content at cap. They're trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get there and to ease their entry into the interesting content. I guess it wasn't easy enough. Sorry to hear that, I think you're missing on some great stuff.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Originally posted by flizzer The hardcore types are never satisfied unless everyone plays their way.
I have been accused as being a hardcore type.. and I don't care if everyone plays my way.
But I do care if the game devalues my hardcore risk and effort by handing the same rewards to others that chose the casual, easy non-risk play style.
Difficulty is relative to the player and their skillsets. If the provided casual content is as challenging to a casual player as hardcore content is to a hardcore player, then the rewards should be the same, otherwise you are promoting preferential treatment to one play style over another, which is not fine if you intend to cater to both within your game.
These kinds of prevailing attitudes from both hardcore gamers and their developer friends is why I'm so damned tired of MMOs trying to cater to more than one play style in their games. They not only breed elitism, but also promote contempt for "lesser" play styles and the gamers who prefer them.
Perhaps I am bit competitive but it is foolish to think that rewards should be the same. If someone has a particular skill, puts in more effort or is simply luckier than others they should be more successful.
I am at a loss to understand what games you play that somehow circumvent the fundamental concept of competition.
What games did you play growing up that somehow managed to nullify any advantages based on skill or effort and always ended in a draw, since someone winning would "breed elitism" and "contempt for lesser play styles" aka losers.
What games other than MMO's offer the option for multiple play styles within the same game, past or present? MMOs are a breed of their own because so many developers try to cater to such a wide variety of gamers in a single MMO rather than create multiple MMOs for each target audience. You equate different play styles other than your own as losers and I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment.
The perception of effort and risk is rather relative and personal and I find it rather arrogant that you or any developer thinks they have the right to set the standard when applying them to multiple types of gamers and content. I don't think gaming should be in the business of promoting second class citizenship as it were.
If you want to play or make a hardcore MMO, then do it, but if you are going to try and cater to casuals, then don't treat them like second class gamers or better yet, stop making casual games where hardcores still get to dictate reward systems.
What games other than MMO's offer the option for multiple play styles within the same game, past or present? MMOs are a breed of their own because so many developers try to cater to such a wide variety of gamers in a single MMO rather than create multiple MMOs for each target audience. You equate different play styles other than your own as losers and I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment.The perception of effort and risk is rather relative and personal and I find it rather arrogant that you or any developer thinks they have the right to set the standard when applying them to multiple types of gamers and content. I don't think gaming should be in the business of promoting second class citizenship as it were.If you want to play or make a hardcore MMO, then do it, but if you are going to try and cater to casuals, then don't treat them like second class gamers or better yet, stop making casual games where hardcores still get to dictate reward systems.
One of the best posts ever in this dead horse discussion. Someday some dev studio will finally get this.
You do not have to play a game you dislike. Amazes me people play and pay for games they don't like, then complain about them
Originally posted by Krimzin If they made Old School servers (difficulty level like EQ1), all the other server types would be empty.
I also highly doubt this would happen. I honestly seeing it going the other way where the hardcore servers are mostly unpopulated. As an example, in games that do have multiple server rules types such as permadeath and FFA full-loot PvP, the harsher ruleset servers and areas are usually barren. "Hardcore" is niche. Most people do not like to lose. Same can be said about life where most of the population is content with a 9-5 safe job while a select few become entrepreneurs with high risk.
Present: Current offerings are low quality or soloable
Past:AoC, DCUO, FFXI,FFXIV 1.0 and ARR,WoW,Fallen Earth, Tabula Rasa, TSW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, WAR, Darkfall, STO, CoH/CoV, GW2, Diaspora, EQ2, DDO, and a bunch of forgettable ftp games
Game designers need to start focusing on a demographic. There are hundreds of games for casuals. Designing for both is not possible. Artificial things like difficulty sliders break virtual worlds.
Just play one of the many other games made for YOU. This one is ours.
Originally posted by killahh I do, then you develop a game system, get it kickstand, hire staff, spend millions developing it and release it. And I'll guarantee you'll also have people moaning, because.... you can't please everyone, so you have to marginalize a section of your player base.
Wut? Making up an imaginary scenario doesn't support your point.
A game doesn't have to appeal to everyone. It doesn't have to satisfy or please everyone. Vorthanion explained it very nicely above. Read that post.
Not bad but it supports both sides of the argument.
The other side of the coin is why must people accept the dumbing down of a game to accommodate the less whatever... Motivated, intelligent, dedicated.. Whatever, in the end it's the same thing, making it easier. Why? So you can beat wow in 1.9days played? There's a video on it, check it out. And please don't throw the casual tag out there because that is not an excuse, i and alot of gamers play casual times and still succeed.
Comments
Would a difficulty setting solve the casual vs. hardcore dilemma?
I was under the impression that it wasn't difficulty that separated the casual from hardcore but the playing time the person could dedicate. I consider myself a casual gamer because I can only play a couple of hours per week, but I want the content to be as difficult as possible.
Hell no, just make it a single player game if they start to do that crap.
I have been accused as being a hardcore type.. and I don't care if everyone plays my way.
But I do care if the game devalues my hardcore risk and effort by handing the same rewards to others that chose the casual, easy non-risk play style.
While I wouldn't like to see it done as stated here, I could support the following extra types of servers.
1) All Raid Mobs are now Group Mobs. Group Mobs are duoable(just solo mobs with maybe some extra abilities). Raids can not be formed.
2) Most or All Solo Mobs are group mobs without extra special abilities. All Group mobs become easy raid targets, and raid mobs are given some kind of bonus(say made 2 levels higher including the loot).
Hence if you have no interest in raids, you can choose one of the non-raid servers and if you have no interest in solo, you can choose the group heavy server.
EQ2 was fine.... hardly... I spent the better part of 6 months of the last year trying to build a solid Guild in EQ2 and the lack of challenge drove folks away. Such a HUGE game with so much cool group content ruined / nerfed into oblivion.
Sadly the game was completely gutted a year after release and streamlined to be a casual solo game. Monsters were rebalanced a number of times until they no longer posed a threat to solo players and even Heroic Group scaled monsters were weakened to the point where you could solo them easily with a Merc.
Our Guild tried to keep things interesting for our 80+ active players as we leveled to 95 but sadly 99 % of the content has been trivialized except for the handful of newest content at the edge of max level. There was so little fun/challenge content left most people quit a few weeks into the mindless facerolling grind at around 50-60
For your number 1 example there are already games like that.. a ton of them.. Not only MMORPG but ARPGs.. Diablo, PoE, Torchlight, Marvel Heroes...ETC ETC ETC.. Why does every MMORPG have to play like its made for special ed students? My question is why do you want to play an mmo if you dont want to be around people or be around very few people?
no as there are a ton of easy mode mmorpg made and out as it is now why do casuals have to rain on everyones parade?
I don't think this would solve the problem. IMO, the hard core vs casual is not just about challenge. There are sides who want things to take a long time and the other side that wants it now/fast. IMO, generally the hardcore want it for everyone. I personally hate wows 15 minute dungeon run. I would love to see a game that takes 9 months for the first person to reach cap.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Killing dragons is my shit
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I can't imagine anything that would cause gamers to cease posing on forums.
The practice has existed as long as electronic games. The first guy that ever won a pong match played on osilloscope ran in circles saying "I yam so much more hardcore than U R, in your face".
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Very likely.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Difficulty is relative to the player and their skillsets. If the provided casual content is as challenging to a casual player as hardcore content is to a hardcore player, then the rewards should be the same, otherwise you are promoting preferential treatment to one play style over another, which is not fine if you intend to cater to both within your game.
These kinds of prevailing attitudes from both hardcore gamers and their developer friends is why I'm so damned tired of MMOs trying to cater to more than one play style in their games. They not only breed elitism, but also promote contempt for "lesser" play styles and the gamers who prefer them.
Well one of the games I play is Fallen Earth. And it is certainly not linear. If I want more difficulty, all I have to do is move to a more difficult area on the map. Totally my choice, and completely the same content as everyone else plays. I think you could say EVE is the same way. Choose your difficulty by allowing players to access all areas of the game at the start.
Probably why FE has kept me entertained for 8 months. I die a lot !!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Perhaps I am bit competitive but it is foolish to think that rewards should be the same. If someone has a particular skill, puts in more effort or is simply luckier than others they should be more successful.
I am at a loss to understand what games you play that somehow circumvent the fundamental concept of competition.
What games did you play growing up that somehow managed to nullify any advantages based on skill or effort and always ended in a draw, since someone winning would "breed elitism" and "contempt for lesser play styles" aka losers.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
What games other than MMO's offer the option for multiple play styles within the same game, past or present? MMOs are a breed of their own because so many developers try to cater to such a wide variety of gamers in a single MMO rather than create multiple MMOs for each target audience. You equate different play styles other than your own as losers and I absolutely do not agree with that sentiment.
The perception of effort and risk is rather relative and personal and I find it rather arrogant that you or any developer thinks they have the right to set the standard when applying them to multiple types of gamers and content. I don't think gaming should be in the business of promoting second class citizenship as it were.
If you want to play or make a hardcore MMO, then do it, but if you are going to try and cater to casuals, then don't treat them like second class gamers or better yet, stop making casual games where hardcores still get to dictate reward systems.
If you play Easy mode, you get trinkets.
You play hard mode you get gold
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
One of the best posts ever in this dead horse discussion. Someday some dev studio will finally get this.
You do not have to play a game you dislike.Amazes me people play and pay for games they don't like, then complain about them
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
And I'll guarantee you'll also have people moaning, because....
you can't please everyone, so you have to marginalize a section of your player base.
And I'll tell you another thing, in origional EQ, you just didn't simply farm anything boss like, it was always a Crap shoot. Unpredictable,
Wow introduced the pharming of bosses.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...
I also highly doubt this would happen. I honestly seeing it going the other way where the hardcore servers are mostly unpopulated. As an example, in games that do have multiple server rules types such as permadeath and FFA full-loot PvP, the harsher ruleset servers and areas are usually barren. "Hardcore" is niche. Most people do not like to lose. Same can be said about life where most of the population is content with a 9-5 safe job while a select few become entrepreneurs with high risk.
Current PC Build
http://pcpartpicker.com/b/p8RBD3
Present: Current offerings are low quality or soloable
Past:AoC, DCUO, FFXI,FFXIV 1.0 and ARR,WoW,Fallen Earth, Tabula Rasa, TSW, SWTOR, Rift, Aion, WAR, Darkfall, STO, CoH/CoV, GW2, Diaspora, EQ2, DDO, and a bunch of forgettable ftp games
Not at all.
Game designers need to start focusing on a demographic. There are hundreds of games for casuals. Designing for both is not possible. Artificial things like difficulty sliders break virtual worlds.
Just play one of the many other games made for YOU. This one is ours.
Wut? Making up an imaginary scenario doesn't support your point.
A game doesn't have to appeal to everyone. It doesn't have to satisfy or please everyone. Vorthanion explained it very nicely above. Read that post.
Not bad but it supports both sides of the argument.The other side of the coin is why must people accept the dumbing down of a game to accommodate the less whatever... Motivated, intelligent, dedicated.. Whatever, in the end it's the same thing, making it easier. Why? So you can beat wow in 1.9days played?
There's a video on it, check it out.
And please don't throw the casual tag out there because that is not an excuse, i and alot of gamers play casual times and still succeed.
over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting...