Sandbox and "F2P" do NOT work together. You end up taking too much away from the game, and it becomes almost impossible, eventually, from becoming "Pay-To-Win".
I'll pay attention to this title once they decide to do the right thing and go P2P. Otherwise, no thank you.
With all due respect Mr Illfonic, I refuse to agree with you, specially when it comes to F2P. I also refuse to believe that making a game F2P will "go easy on you", in the process of making the game. You will be "forced" somehow, to release the game, and not develop it "at a very relaxed pace", unless you already have the full budged for this game. If not, beside you and your people, there are bills to be paid, softs, computers, etc etc and etc.
You cannot do a F2P game (sandbox actually), and not make it P2W. All the games on the market that are F2P, are P2W, even the PVE games are P2W. You will not be able to maintain the game only with fluff items like xp boost, cosmetic items and so on. So, adding a bit powerful items in a sandbox mmo, will insta-ruin the game. Of course, it will be ruined for players like me, who are against P2W games, but you will have your (kids) market, with big cash father, mother, uncle, etc. and then you will be happy. Right?
What I do not understand is that while you were saying that being a F2P game will make you to develop the game at a very relaxed pace, why making a P2P will not work? Who and how will put pressure on you if you would have created the game with P2P option in-mind?
Yes, I stopped reading after the F2P debate. Don't get me wrong, I support(somehow) indie company's even if they create F2P games (see Prime World), but your F2P vision is so fully wrong.
I wish you luck anyway. You want fast-cash, then yes F2P is the way, but you will never have THAT player(s) in your game.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Forgive me, but I'm super-cynical about this game.
Anyone that has ALL the right answers to every question makes me very suspicious.
Glad I was not the only one who noticed this. They also seem to have no idea what it takes to build a game, let alone an MMORPG. All these great ideas on paper, but it is a whole different ballgame creating them.
And really? Launching it at 35% complete? Hell, that may even be less than Warhammer Online.
I'm just sad that the word "sandbox" seems to have become synonymous with open pvp. Well, don't have time to try all the games in the world. Open pvp is dull as kitty litter to me. Here's your sandbox back, devs.
To talk about launching or even a beta for a sandbox MMO you just started working on and barely have a full sized team for in summer-winter of 2014 seems incredibly rushed to say the least.
How does F2P and micro transactions work with a supposedly player driven economy? Something tells me we are not entering the actual sandbox era, just the sandbox buzzword era.
This is purely a hypothetical idea which has nothing to do with this sandbox game, but taking a cue from DOTA 2, you could have players design their own armor sets (cosmetic only) and those that are accepted by the developer team would then be added to the Cash Shop where the author of the armor would receive a cut of the sales on each of his own creations.
There are many possibilities to monetize a F2P sandbox, even if that sandbox is player-driven. I also recall reading of a F2P Sandbox that was completely free to play, unless you wanted to buy land to build a house, in which case you would "rent" at a price using real money.
Curious to see how Illfonic will monetize its F2P sandbox. I suppose we'll have to wait until next year.
Originally posted by Torcip Did anyone else notice the fact that the game will be inspired by Lovecraft, or does no one else here think that is OMFG amazing?
I think most of us were too distracted by the fact that they intend to release a 35% complete game with a fully functioning cash shop.
I mean. Read that last sentence out loud. Thats what they are intentionally planning to do. DO mmo devs even give a damn anymore?
Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer OMG, More bullshit!Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately, I feel we will see a new definition of player driven economy made to fit a cash shop and we will be drowned out.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer OMG, More bullshit!
Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately, I feel we will see a new definition of player driven economy made to fit a cash shop and we will be drowned out.
Yeah, there is that and the fact that the past few years of Theme Park MMOs sucking wasn't just because Theme Parks have been over done. These games have sucked because of piss poor game design. These same creative geniuses suddenly had an epiphany and "get it"? They are now gonna start making games that don't suck just because it's a sandbox? They could start by realizing that a true sandbox needs to launch as P2P. And for those who might be thinking It works for EVE. EVE had 5 years of established economy in purely P2P before introducing PLEX. Had EVE launched with PLEX, We'd see an entirely different economy base in EVE now.
Although "So we’ve come up with ways that can make most people happy"-> not a big fan of compromises to max out player base, but have to see how that is working in a sandbox. I hope it doesn't mean what I think it means.
"A lot of us that are here have worked on MMOs before, but we’ve always been under the knife of producer run, marketing driven development. Because of this, things have gotten really bad over the past decade with the genre. Players are tired of being lied to with fluffy gimmicks. The end result is, they’re getting the same game over and over with a slight twist."
Yet another industry figure has expressed their concern about the MMO industry and where it is going. Once again I ask those posters among us who think everything is going swell in MMO land to post here and tell us why this guy who works in the industry has got it wrong.
I doubt they will come out to play, but you can but ask.
"An MMORPG is supposed to be an online world, not an excel spread sheet."
Indeed, this is a concept we have moved so far away from we might as well be feeding our money into a slot machine as playing a MMO.
It looks great judging from the screenshots - dark and gritty, autumn-coloured and so on. Awesome models and some gorgeous environments, and Lovecraft-inspired on top of that.
As for the feature list, well... talk is cheap. I don't trust any devs to deliver what they promise anymore, but I do like these guys' core philosophy. Dynamic world interaction, GM driven stories and unique quests, open PvP, thievery, etc, but with an actual karma system and the ability to opt out of PvP in a way that doesn't totally destroy immersion. Potentially awesome but it needs some really good design to work in a way that will not alienate 99% of the market.
And that's where the big fat warning sign arises: FTP.
Why in the seven hells do every current dev of player-driven games feel the need to jump on the FTP wagon? First the Repopulation and now this game. Don't they understand that FTP opens the doors for PTW, rampant cheating and exploiting, and also totally destroys immersion?
Originally posted by GeezerGamer OMG, More bullshit!
Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately, I feel we will see a new definition of player driven economy made to fit a cash shop and we will be drowned out.
Yeah, there is that and the fact that the past few years of Theme Park MMOs sucking wasn't just because Theme Parks have been over done. These games have sucked because of piss poor game design. These same creative geniuses suddenly had an epiphany and "get it"? They are now gonna start making games that don't suck just because it's a sandbox? They could start by realizing that a true sandbox needs to launch as P2P. And for those who might be thinking It works for EVE. EVE had 5 years of established economy in purely P2P before introducing PLEX. Had EVE launched with PLEX, We'd see an entirely different economy base in EVE now.
Originally posted by GeezerGamer OMG, More bullshit!
Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately, I feel we will see a new definition of player driven economy made to fit a cash shop and we will be drowned out.
Yeah, there is that and the fact that the past few years of Theme Park MMOs sucking wasn't just because Theme Parks have been over done. These games have sucked because of piss poor game design. These same creative geniuses suddenly had an epiphany and "get it"? They are now gonna start making games that don't suck just because it's a sandbox? They could start by realizing that a true sandbox needs to launch as P2P. And for those who might be thinking It works for EVE. EVE had 5 years of established economy in purely P2P before introducing PLEX. Had EVE launched with PLEX, We'd see an entirely different economy base in EVE now.
Yeah.........I'll hold my breath for this one.
I am with ya there , he kinda of lost me at F2P not P2W and sandbox. Even with Eves version of RMT with PLEX someone was still paying the bill for the sub.
Isn't part of the fun of sandbox games like UO and Eve the economy side of things.
"Players are tired of being lied to with fluffy gimmicks"
Yeah, this interview was pretty full of fluffy gimmicks like Player Housing and NPC towns wasting away from the lack of an economy or being destroyed. There is almost zero chance this is making it into the game or, if it does, will be anything at all like described.
It doesn't sound like a sandbox game and it doesn't sound like it's anything at all different from what is already out there.
Comments
Sandbox and "F2P" do NOT work together. You end up taking too much away from the game, and it becomes almost impossible, eventually, from becoming "Pay-To-Win".
I'll pay attention to this title once they decide to do the right thing and go P2P. Otherwise, no thank you.
With all due respect Mr Illfonic, I refuse to agree with you, specially when it comes to F2P. I also refuse to believe that making a game F2P will "go easy on you", in the process of making the game. You will be "forced" somehow, to release the game, and not develop it "at a very relaxed pace", unless you already have the full budged for this game. If not, beside you and your people, there are bills to be paid, softs, computers, etc etc and etc.
You cannot do a F2P game (sandbox actually), and not make it P2W. All the games on the market that are F2P, are P2W, even the PVE games are P2W. You will not be able to maintain the game only with fluff items like xp boost, cosmetic items and so on. So, adding a bit powerful items in a sandbox mmo, will insta-ruin the game. Of course, it will be ruined for players like me, who are against P2W games, but you will have your (kids) market, with big cash father, mother, uncle, etc. and then you will be happy. Right?
What I do not understand is that while you were saying that being a F2P game will make you to develop the game at a very relaxed pace, why making a P2P will not work? Who and how will put pressure on you if you would have created the game with P2P option in-mind?
Yes, I stopped reading after the F2P debate. Don't get me wrong, I support(somehow) indie company's even if they create F2P games (see Prime World), but your F2P vision is so fully wrong.
I wish you luck anyway. You want fast-cash, then yes F2P is the way, but you will never have THAT player(s) in your game.
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
Glad I was not the only one who noticed this. They also seem to have no idea what it takes to build a game, let alone an MMORPG. All these great ideas on paper, but it is a whole different ballgame creating them.
And really? Launching it at 35% complete? Hell, that may even be less than Warhammer Online.
gameplay > graphics
"An MMORPG is supposed to be an online world, not an excel spread sheet."
I couldn't have said it better! Almost all newer MMOs are basically spread sheets with pretty graphics.
This is purely a hypothetical idea which has nothing to do with this sandbox game, but taking a cue from DOTA 2, you could have players design their own armor sets (cosmetic only) and those that are accepted by the developer team would then be added to the Cash Shop where the author of the armor would receive a cut of the sales on each of his own creations.
There are many possibilities to monetize a F2P sandbox, even if that sandbox is player-driven. I also recall reading of a F2P Sandbox that was completely free to play, unless you wanted to buy land to build a house, in which case you would "rent" at a price using real money.
Curious to see how Illfonic will monetize its F2P sandbox. I suppose we'll have to wait until next year.
Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.
He who can describe the flame does not burn.
Petrarch
I think most of us were too distracted by the fact that they intend to release a 35% complete game with a fully functioning cash shop.
I mean. Read that last sentence out loud. Thats what they are intentionally planning to do. DO mmo devs even give a damn anymore?
F2P is garbage.
Kinda hard to say whether this game holds any promise regardless since they're not that far along.
Saying a game that isn't even finished being prototyped yet could be the next big thing is pretty much utterly ridiculous.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
OMG, More bullshit!
Mt/RMT in a player driven economy? Talk about P2W! There is no way to avoid that. The second this game releases, the wealthiest players will be the ones buying gold or whatever tradeables are for sale in the shop. Those 1st days will be crucial to the gold buyer, it will set them up in game with opportunities that will not be available to players later, even ones that spend more money. Plus there is the whole Cash Shop driven RNG mechanics to deal with. Sorry but a Cash Shop in the game means Publisher controlled economy. Sandbox games have a player driven economy. These two are diametrrically opposed. It's just not going to work. EQ:N and The Repopulation will most likely face the exact same issue.
Yeah, there is that and the fact that the past few years of Theme Park MMOs sucking wasn't just because Theme Parks have been over done. These games have sucked because of piss poor game design. These same creative geniuses suddenly had an epiphany and "get it"? They are now gonna start making games that don't suck just because it's a sandbox? They could start by realizing that a true sandbox needs to launch as P2P. And for those who might be thinking It works for EVE. EVE had 5 years of established economy in purely P2P before introducing PLEX. Had EVE launched with PLEX, We'd see an entirely different economy base in EVE now.
Yeah.........I'll hold my breath for this one.
huh, need to keep an eye on that ome.
Although "So we’ve come up with ways that can make most people happy"-> not a big fan of compromises to max out player base, but have to see how that is working in a sandbox. I hope it doesn't mean what I think it means.
"A lot of us that are here have worked on MMOs before, but we’ve always been under the knife of producer run, marketing driven development. Because of this, things have gotten really bad over the past decade with the genre. Players are tired of being lied to with fluffy gimmicks. The end result is, they’re getting the same game over and over with a slight twist."
Yet another industry figure has expressed their concern about the MMO industry and where it is going. Once again I ask those posters among us who think everything is going swell in MMO land to post here and tell us why this guy who works in the industry has got it wrong.
I doubt they will come out to play, but you can but ask.
"An MMORPG is supposed to be an online world, not an excel spread sheet."
Indeed, this is a concept we have moved so far away from we might as well be feeding our money into a slot machine as playing a MMO.
Sandbox MMO - Open World - Quest Hubs
Maybe it can work but those statements just don't sit right with me, this sounds like a hybrid cash shop game of which there are numerous already.
Read about this the other day on Massively.
It looks great judging from the screenshots - dark and gritty, autumn-coloured and so on. Awesome models and some gorgeous environments, and Lovecraft-inspired on top of that.
As for the feature list, well... talk is cheap. I don't trust any devs to deliver what they promise anymore, but I do like these guys' core philosophy. Dynamic world interaction, GM driven stories and unique quests, open PvP, thievery, etc, but with an actual karma system and the ability to opt out of PvP in a way that doesn't totally destroy immersion. Potentially awesome but it needs some really good design to work in a way that will not alienate 99% of the market.
And that's where the big fat warning sign arises: FTP.
Why in the seven hells do every current dev of player-driven games feel the need to jump on the FTP wagon? First the Repopulation and now this game. Don't they understand that FTP opens the doors for PTW, rampant cheating and exploiting, and also totally destroys immersion?
Sad, sad indeed.
I am with ya there , he kinda of lost me at F2P not P2W and sandbox. Even with Eves version of RMT with PLEX someone was still paying the bill for the sub.
Isn't part of the fun of sandbox games like UO and Eve the economy side of things.
"Players are tired of being lied to with fluffy gimmicks"
Yeah, this interview was pretty full of fluffy gimmicks like Player Housing and NPC towns wasting away from the lack of an economy or being destroyed. There is almost zero chance this is making it into the game or, if it does, will be anything at all like described.
It doesn't sound like a sandbox game and it doesn't sound like it's anything at all different from what is already out there.