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For those upset by the lack of trinity have you ever thought of....
Daaken
Member Posts: 158
.......The Trinity becomes pointless when you introduce the first smart AI system in the history of the genre?
They never said their getting rid of roles, the panel even explicitly said that if you enjoy playing a certain way, you can continue to play that way and even be rewarded just the same as anyone else. This isn't GW2, where you have dumb AI, the mobs will target intelligently and a Trinity based system makes no sense in the grand scheme of a dynamic and smart world. Story Bricks will revolutionize the genre because of this.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Comments
The AI is theory, lets wait and see.
[mod edit]
Better AI doesn't mean that role would not work. You won't see much better than from the other games, they won't just auto target the one guy that is healing, it will be an agro game like all the rest. We might see improved behavior, calling for help and running when getting low on health (which isn't new) but I am pretty sure it won't be much more than that.
It's not like we can give npc the brain capacity of humans. It all have to be scripted. Strict role and challenging mobs is a great way to improve community and team play. If you can do it all and faceroll thru the content it will just be another solo game that most people will quit after a month.
So you'd rather have the same static, scripted boss fights with some people telling the boss he has bad breath or his momma is fat, and others standing around playing whack-a-mole with the rest of people's health bars? Sorry that doesn't interest me in the slightest.
I wish people would take the entirety of the context into account instead of relying on one failed game's model (which isn't even a failure). A dynamic and smart AI will not stand there and hit the same person over and over and over and over while 19 others beat on it's backside.
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
I'll believe it when I see it, randomizing the responses so that it breaks off to behave unpredictably is not the same thing as human intelligence and I'm gong to love seeing players cry if the AI starts using tactics like assist training the healers and casters first and leaving the heavy melee for last.
Or on a converse note will it be smart enough to withdrew its casters initially, much as I do in DAOC, only to then turn back up about 30 seconds into the fight when everyone is distracted to start disrupting the enemy casters with a barrage of pets that prevent them from casting?
I doubt it, but if they do I'm guessing players won't enjoy this in PVE anymore than they do know in PVP.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Where exactly have you seen that this so-called "improved AI" has improved the community and team play? My experience tells me exactly the opposite.
Guild wars 2 has pretty much advertised their game as having no trinity. World content sees an every man for themselves mentality: try to hit the boss, hope you stay alive.
Rift having multi classes where anyone can pretty much play anything, sees world content zerg fests. Tank-healer concept is usually not present because you just join public groups, and you'd be lucky to find a tank and healer taking responsibility for such roles. World content sees again everyone for themselves.
Neither of these two games, at least in my opinion, has improved community and team play. Ergo, those who like to play support roles, tanking, healing, CC, are looked upon when mechanics just require dps.
Using red boxes that show where you should be standing isn't any smarter.
Action games remove the aggro stack but replace it with warning signs.
They tried "smart mobs" once in Everquest. They made a raid where mobs knew who the player healers, DPS and tanks were (MPG trial). It was such a chaotic mess, the DPS got mezzed, the healers got killed instantly, they had to dumb the whole raid down so people could beat it. There's right ways to do smart AI and wrong ways, having no aggro system has many flaws too.
Angering a mob through an aggro stack isn't any less fitting in a world than one that just attacks every PC at random.
So what will it do ? Randomly attack anyone ? It have to be scripted... it is coded.
Don't believe everything you hear or read.. Trust me.. MOBS ONLY respond to code, and code only.. The original EQ had a nice little "agro" code that could be considered as smart AI.. If you want to spin it that way.. Let me explain more.. Mobs in EQ would often ignore the tanks taunt if a wizzie over nuked.. DPS was just another number on the threat meter, as so was healing.. If you healed too much in EQ, you will get attention you don't want.... If you snared the mob too much, you will get attention.. Anyone that knew ANYTHING about EQ druids, you better wait to cast snare unless you want to tank the mob.... Attention all casters, don't SIT in a vulnerable position because the mob AI thinks you are an easy target....
In conclusion..... The AI in EQN will have their own "THREAT" code and it's only a matter of time before the player base learns the IN's and OUT's of what pisses off the mob and what doesn't.. The AI code is not organic as the devs might spin it, it doesn't creates it's own programming, or becomes self aware.. The AI will only do a series of "yes" and "no" checks.. I'm not a fan of making the trinity the ONLY way to play, but at the same time I'm not a fan of saying "GET LOST" to trinity and force players into another "MY WAY" style of play.. which is what SOE is doing with EQN..
Can you show us a vid of all this smart AI in EQN, making such a claim must mean you can back it up with vids.
I'll wait here while you go find them, thanks.
Did you see the combat videos, and did you thought that the mobs had an high IQ?
It didn't look to me like mobs were too intelligent, staying there waiting for the Lion King to zerg them to death...............
^^^^^^^^ this lol
OK buddy.. YOU owe me a new monitor as I just spit my coffee out all over my computer from laughing.. Damn you.. LOL
Hmm maybe I wasn't clear enough... I am saying that challenging content and strict roles improves the community, not the supposedly improved AI. I am basing this on old school games vs new ones where you can just solo almost anything.
To be fair, it was said the mobs AI is turned off in order to show the ability to interact with objects aka destruction. I think so.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
Very well put. Many many players actually love to have a role and to take responsibility for that role. With the lack of trinity and with systems found in games like Rift and GW2, that part of the game does not exist for me. Nothing good can come out when there's no responsibility and there's no "need" to perform some role, except fulfilling your "solo" needs. Role-playing means also having a "role" in combat. Trinity forces group play, and forces people to be actually good at their role in order to be picked up. In GW2, it is more efficient to run from event to event, poking the boss with a stick once, knowing you'll get credit, instead of actually staying 20min for the event to end. That's a selfish mess.
And another thing, the whole idea of classes was that you roll a class and you try to be the best at it. You try to be the best bard on your realm, doing what a bard does. Having a "best way" to bard is already bad enough, having this thing, this soup where everyone can be everything whenever they want... well it makes your character even less unique than it would be when having fixed classes.
Probably there's something wrong with me and this "next-gen" games are something i do not understand, but they could at least have had the decency not to put "Everquest" in the title. This is something else.
Having seen this type of thing in other games (no trinity) basically all it does is put a greater emphasis on range combat. Take your bow out, take out your spells and all Melee people get out of the way because all you are going to do is slow the zerg down.
Also, if they make the fights tough enough that zerg's don't work, then you are going to run into a situation where your Mage is getting 1-2 hit killed because I can't imagine them having the same health as say a warrior. If all the monster are truly going to attack anyone on the battlefield, unless a mage and other classes get endless move abilities and blocks, I don't see it.
Of course the Warrior COULD have taunt, and the cleric/priest COULD have healing spells and it could be a hybrid trinity system. After all the did say we want you to play your way that makes you have fun, and I'm sure there are a ton of people out there who enjoy tanking and healing so are they just going to totally scrap that gameplay?? Seems odd to me.
I'll not bring myself down to your level so I'll just assume you have no intention to honestly debate or you'd know the game is being designed with Storybricks and this whole weekend the panels and the devs in those panels have repeatedly stated the game is featuring a true AI system the likes that's never been done. Since you refuse to take my or their words for what they are, I'll go ahead and place you on block and ignore your attempts in baiting me into a confrontation. Good bye sir!
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Yes I have considered it. I will believe it when I see it. Every game developer since the dawn of video games has tried to implement a "smart AI." The problem is we aren't living in the time of the Matrix just yet. At least not that I know of.
Have you ever considered that putting your faith in something that is unproven just because someone tells you to believe in it is just plain silly?
The evidence to date (GW2) shows that removing the Trinity does not work. It leads to crap dungeons and boring zerg fest public quests. It also creates an atmosphere where no one will group with you unless you are in the optimal DPS spec. If you don't need tanks and healers, then you should be in the most efficient DPS form possible. No need to take along anyone in defensive spec. It just slows down the Pew Pew.
The SOE devs are asking for blind faith in believing that the removal of the Trinity can work. I say demonstrate that it can work without the Trinity. I've said this before. They need only show us a dungeon crawl or a boss fight. Show me how this whole things works without direct tanking and healing. Let me marvel at this wondrous AI.
-Ellessar-
Can you explain to us what a true smart AI could do ?
What I got from their emergent AI is not really related to combat but more to behavior. Mobs won't stay in"fields", waiting to be farmed, only agroing players that walk close to their bubbles,etc. This does'nt mean that they will have smarter combat tactics. One could hope, but I think it will be mlre of the same on that aspect. As for most other subject on that game.. wait and see!