Originally posted by Raven I just dont understand how people can quantify their enjoyment of the game in terms of hard work,
Just like I don't understand why people want to play a game to craft staves and swords and shields and have a "player house" -- because people want to do things and they want to feel rewarded by them.
---- You should probably put that dedication into something that will actually give you something back other than pixels and achievement points, honestly.
I see where you are going, thats how the games industry works tho, you dont get to pick what games get made unfortunately, unless you are in the board in one of these massive companies with millions to pump into the products you want and you manage to convince your shareholders thats where you should be spending money on, or you make your own company and you produce the sort of low budget stuff like darkfall and mortal online.
I'm a pharmacist irl. I've put plenty of time and effort to get where I am all while playing MMO's along the way. I'm already comfortable with where i've gotten in life socially and economically. I do my job and take good care of my patients. See my previous post its not what I meant my comment might have been slightly misguided I just wish my favorite hobby wasn't going to shit.....correction; I just wish it hadn't ALREADY gone to shit and had no signs of getting better in the near future.
--- And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, some people will agree with you and some people won't, unfortunately as I said before it is not something you can control unless you actively pursue a path that will make it better, calling anyone that doesnt agree with you "lemmings" is not in any way gonna achieve that, what if hypothetically we made a survey tomorrow of every single MMO player in the world and it came back that the vast majority likes the direction MMORPGs are going what will you do then? Voice your opinion but also respect others.
Originally posted by Detroit1103
Originally posted by Raven I just dont understand how people can quantify their enjoyment of the game in terms of hard work,
Just like I don't understand why people want to play a game to craft staves and swords and shields and have a "player house" -- because people want to do things and they want to feel rewarded by them.
Sure and that is why wanting a game that is what EQN is going to be is as valid as wanting a game that is hardcore, someone wanting a "hardcore" MMO doesnt diminish someone elses wish to have a game made that fits with the feature set SOE announced. If someones idea of fun is to craft staves and make pretty looking houses in Landmark and just look at them for 8h a day straight while making sure every little detail in that house is absolutely spot on, doesnt diminish their achievement when compared to someone spending 8h a day trying to kill an NPC with 5 other people.
I didnt make any assumptions and i didnt mean it as offensive at all i just dont understand how people can quantify their enjoyment of the game in terms of hard work, i played many hours of games and have made certain achievements that i look back and consider them to have been hard work but i didnt do it cause they were hard work it was because they were fun first and foremost whether it was hard work or not is a side effect that came with it not the prerequesite for it to be fun. If hard work is what you are looking for then ANY game will offer something that is hard work whether its aimed at casuals or not. Im sure you can find something that is hard work in hello kitty online. That was the message i meant to convey with my comment.
This goes without saying. I'm not gonna play something that isn't fun. Dark Souls is fun, Dota 2 is fun, hell GW2 is fun. As far as quality goes I consider GW2 and a number of other MMO's to to be "good games" but I don't play them for long or as of late even at all....why? Because having to work hard for rewards is gratifying, both in games and in real life. I don't consider hard work to be a prerequisite for fun, but I definitely consider it to be a prerequisite for retention. Nothing worthwhile in life is easy. What makes doing anything feel special is the fact that not many other people have the devotion, skill or some other kind of prerequisite to do it.
I'm certain that if we did take a survey most players would be happy with the way things are going. The majority of MMO players today ARE casual players that claim to want an easy game with innovative and interesting features. But they're getting what they ask for and are still not happy. Now here's where the opinion comes in but I believe that it's because they don't know what they really want. People like me are not getting much of a choice in the matter and it sucks, even though there's quite alot of us (and no i'm not saying people with exactly my tastes but I'm not asking for exactly the game I want. I just want a good quality game with a fantasy setting that's marketed towards a hardcore audience. Sadly we're not a target audience for anyone that makes polished games anymore).
I didnt make any assumptions and i didnt mean it as offensive at all i just dont understand how people can quantify their enjoyment of the game in terms of hard work, i played many hours of games and have made certain achievements that i look back and consider them to have been hard work but i didnt do it cause they were hard work it was because they were fun first and foremost whether it was hard work or not is a side effect that came with it not the prerequesite for it to be fun. If hard work is what you are looking for then ANY game will offer something that is hard work whether its aimed at casuals or not. Im sure you can find something that is hard work in hello kitty online. That was the message i meant to convey with my comment.
This goes without saying. I'm not gonna play something that isn't fun. Dark Souls is fun, Dota 2 is fun, hell GW2 is fun. As far as quality goes I consider GW2 and a number of other MMO's to to be "good games" but I don't play them for long or as of late even at all....why? Because having to work hard for rewards is gratifying, both in games and in real life. I don't consider hard work to be a prerequisite for fun, but I definitely consider it to be a prerequisite for retention. Nothing worthwhile in life is easy. What makes doing anything feel special is the fact that not many other people have the devotion, skill or some other kind of prerequisite to do it.
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:
I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I want the world to have some monsters that no matter how strong I or my companions get they always whoop our asses to create a sense of humility. I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!
I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it. And when I say tier I really mean tier. As in if you don't have the skill or dedication or w/e you can't get any further but you'll try anyway so that you can improve your skills (and you WILL try if you're having fun).
I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like.
Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:
I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!
I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it.
I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like.
Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.
I honestly think you have prematurely written off the game, I think EQN has the potential to have exactly what you want, and I dont know if it will or not from what they told us so far, I wouldnt be surprised that the procedural content you get underground falls under different levels of difficulty and that you might end up finding something that is really hard or something that is of an easy nature.
I imagine with the announcement of guild cities and destructible environment there is likely going to be challenging PVP if they decide to add sieges and territorial control.
From your list what I think will be unlikely to be in the game is a harsh death penalty, but that is not the only way to instil fear of dying, if the world is huge and you are exploring in a secluded corner fear of dying is still there if you have to walk back for 20min to join your group.
I honestly think you have prematurely written off the game, I think EQN has the potential to have exactly what you want, and I dont know if it will or not from what they told us so far, I wouldnt be surprised that the procedural content you get underground falls under different levels of difficulty and that you might end up finding something that is really hard or something that is of an easy nature.
I imagine with the announcement of guild cities and destructible environment there is likely going to be challenging PVP if they decide to add sieges and territorial control.
From your list what I think will be unlikely to be in the game is a harsh death penalty, but that is not the only way to instil fear of dying, if the world is huge and you are exploring in a secluded corner fear of dying is still there if you have to walk back for 20min to join your group.
I'm not holding my breath. I think it would be fairly obvious at this point if they were currently intending to up the ante in terms of challenge. Now I AM hoping that maybe at some point they open a round table poll about it and we get the opportunity to change their mind but I'm fairly confident that even if they made the game harder we'd get changes post launch to appease the mass of people that gets stuck (and we come back full circle). The larger you want you want your game population to be the more people you have to push along. As I said before us hardcore people that WANT a challenge and don't expect or want content to be nerfed to our abilities are more than you'd expect but we're certainly not in the millions (which is what EQN is gunning for).
Good. I want the game to get content on a regular basis, have a shot at actually getting income, and not cater to the losers with more then 40 hours a week to play MMOs! "Hardcore" in MMO terms is simply time consuming.
"I would not call this game a hardcore MMO. We want something that is accessible to a larger number of people"
They should have said they were making a children's MMO right off the bat.
lol, I've said this from the beginning; they want/need to cater to as large a group as possible. For some reason players made up their own little story.
Oh, I'm sure there is going to be a lot to this game but some players like to hone in on specific words that these devs say and then imbut them with their own definitions/meaning.
Just wait until the pvp info starts rolling in.
Come on Sovrath...
Granted you were right from the start, however the whole "wait until the pvp info comes in" is a cop out.
We both know all PvP looks good on paper .. hence GW2
What I mean is, some players have this idea that because it's an open world and a sandbox it's going to have ffa pvp. And I just don't believe that's going to happen. And players are going to be angry.
I saw that differently
I should of known.. looks like you're going to be right yet again... tragically right
Yeah, shame on SOE for wanting a commercially viable product! After all, they do have a responsibility to provide "hardcore" nolifers with the game of their dreams.
You know, a game can be "hardcore" (meaning complex, difficult, and rewarding time investment) and yet accesible. For example, the core game mechanics and basic features can be simple and intuitive while high-end content is hard and demanding. A player can then chose which level of difficulty he/she wants to engage.
But I guess some people still think "hardcore" = long grind + harsh death penalties + tedious mechanics that anyone with a life and a job will shun, and if a game does not abide by those 1999 design standards it is to be considered a kid's game and a WoW clone.
since 2007 we hear the same thing you just spewed out.
with varying levels of sarcasm but usually around this level.
how many more MMOs must die befor you realise your beloved casual target audience is already taken ?
What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read my posts?
I'm not a "casualization" advocate, I'm just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone with half a brain: a good (and profitable) game caters to several types of players; both people who spend their entire waking time in game and those with only a couple of hours a week should be able to enjoy the game, albeit in different ways and with different kinds of in game results.
A good game is neither casual or hardcore, it gives players options. If I have a busy week I should be able to log on a few times and still get some things done and have some fun, and when I'm on vacation or have more spare time I'll spend days on end committing myself to the more demanding stuff.
Of course, if I never play more than a couple of hours a week on the game, I'll never have the same in game wealth/power/fame/e-peen as the nolifer, but I should not have to commit my life to the game just to feel any sense of enjoyment or accomplishment either. As I said, options are good.
I totally agree that MMOs have been far too slanted towards the casual market lately, which (among other reasons) is why most recent games have failed - MMOs can not be too shallow and easy, since they thrive on player retention and multiple layers of difficulty and time investement. If they're too simple, people just blow through content and then leave.
But MMOs can't be too "hardcore" either, at least not if the developers spent enormous chunks of investor money building the game. The target audience for extremely steep learning curves, punishing game mechanics and huge timesinks is just too small. To me personally, those kind of games can be a lot of fun, but most people are not attracted by them which is why AAA devs don't make them. So, if we want to play them we're stuck with indies and crowd funding.
Wishing for this to change based on some naîve idea of justice (e.g. "it's the hardcore players' turn now!") is delusional at best. There will not be a major AAA super hardcore game any time soon, sorry. The market doesn't work that way and being bitter about it won't change anything.
QFT. 10+. I use to be in a Server First guild back during BC and Early WOTLK. We raided 7 hours a day for nearly 5-6 days. That is what most people define as hardcore. And I cant do it anymore, its not fun to smash your head against something over and over again. God forbid they make a game where someone can come in and play for a couple hours and still feel like they accomplished something. IM extremely looking forward to EQN as it has everything ive been asking for.
There are plenty of mmos out right now that try and cater to people like you who claim to be so busy they can only play for 1 or 2 hours every few days. You're probably not playing any of them because they all suck.
There are plenty of hardcore games out there for you, Darkfall Unholy Wars, EVE Online just to name two, why arent you playing them? Those games are pretty hardcore you dont need any more.
* I really can enjoy both types of games it just annoys me that some entitled people think the world owes them something somehow
It annoys me that some entitled people want to be able to play a few hours a week and expect all the rewards handed to them with a pat of there head for good measure.
SWTOR tried to pair a substandard MMO with a gimmick. If EQN does the same thing it will ultimately fail. They should have made the Combat and Class system more complex since they were doing something so dynamic with the world and AI.
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:
I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I want the world to have some monsters that no matter how strong I or my companions get they always whoop our asses to create a sense of humility. I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!
I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it. And when I say tier I really mean tier. As in if you don't have the skill or dedication or w/e you can't get any further but you'll try anyway so that you can improve your skills (and you WILL try if you're having fun).
I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like.
Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.
First-time poster here, but wanted to chime in, because I largely agree with these desires. However, I think there's a component that a lot of people are missing.
Part of the desire for "hardcore" is that those of us who cut our teeth on Everquest created enduring memories. Not surprisingly, we're looking for something to recapture those memories, or an experience that's somewhat akin to what we've had before. Perhaps it's just as simple as always looking to find your first love; perhaps it's simply generational.
When I look back at my EQ experience, it was defined by two things: Challenge and Community. I think of how I was grouping by level 6 or 7 because venturing into Blackburrow alone was suicide and making my first friends.I think of the first time someone was giving out free rezzes near the guards, or throwing SoW onto every newbie that ran by and making their life wonderful for 20-odd minutes. Of the first corpse run, and the first time someone helped me get my corpse after falling in said Blackburrow, a favor I repaid a hundredfold later in life. My first guild, I joined not because they were a hardcore raiding guild, but because they spent entire evenings in GFay just helping people and being generally great people.
I think of other people's trains in Unrest and the fear and adrenaline that came with running like hell. Of wandering Oasis and getting slammed by level 40 creatures out of nowhere, and learning carefully what areas of the map to navigate. Of the careful web of interdependency set up by the classes, so that while I always strove towards self-sufficiency, I was always aware that it was a communal game, and that you could accomplish far more in groups than alone. I remember my first Ring/teleport spell (as a druid) and being amazed at the possibilities, because instead of making the world seem smaller, it only seemed more vast. Of peeking into every nook and cranny and getting my nose bit off multiple times.
It goes on. I remember camping spawns and feeling such a sense of accomplishment hours later when what I needed dropped, of epic weapon quests that were badges of pride, and how Gates of Discord ate us up and spit us out night after night, honing our coordination and teamwork until we not only beat Uqua, but mastered it. Of farming faction because yes, it made sense that Freeport didn't like my Erudite SK hanging around, so I'd better find a way to make friends. How every newbie experience was unique, and starting an elf or dwarf seemed like a completely different experience--zones, creatures, quests, etc--than my human and erudite characters. And most of all, the freedom to go places and be told by the level of danger, not by the linear quest lines, where I should be. I loved those unique experiences, and played alts of all varieties to experience them.
Since I retired from EQ, I don't have the time anymore to devote more than 1-2 hours a day. That's fine, really; no complaints here, as I have a family and different priorities. That doesn't stop me from missing it. I've tried a number of MMOs recently, because I miss the genre. The sad thing? They don't generate memories.
I spent a lot of time in SWTOR and GW2. Multiple max-level characters. Yet I can't remember a single fight, or moment, or tradition, or experience that lingers. It's all ephemeral. There's nothing to reminisce about;
Remember that third alt in SWTOR and the exact same soul-crushingly on rails quest path to level up? I think, wow, what pretty games, and I leveled and crafted and explored and then...there was nothing left to do. No more worlds left to conquer.
Oh, remember that time in GW2 where I almost died in that one zone with the centaurs? Or that time when 90 of us spammed our skills at an open-world dragon and I felt like I contributed nothing? It's a beautiful game, but very hollow.
I think that's what a lot of the hardcore crowd desire, and are/were hoping for with EQNext: A return to the challenge and community of the original. I'm not sold that will happen. Will I still play? Sure. I will give them a well-earned chance. But on some level inside, I'm afraid that it'll turn out to be just like SWTOR and GW2--and at that point, the quiet flame I've been nurturing for all these years for a "true" Everquest Next will probably be snuffed out.
Originally posted by Celcius Good. I want the game to get content on a regular basis, have a shot at actually getting income, and not cater to the losers with more then 40 hours a week to play MMOs! "Hardcore" in MMO terms is simply time consuming.
EverQuest Next will have grinding. They might disguise it as 'find the subclasses' or 'find materials to build your house' or 'improve this faction to get a new ability', but there will be hooks that make it every bit as time consuming as every other MMO. That's the nature of the genre and it will never change.
The real question is how do you want to spend your time in an MMO? I'd like to spend it in a game that challenges me because overcoming challenge is rewarding. Maybe you just want to crack open a case of beer and let the game play itself, but there are people who value their time more than you do.
Originally posted by KingsField Originally posted by CelciusGood. I want the game to get content on a regular basis, have a shot at actually getting income, and not cater to the losers with more then 40 hours a week to play MMOs! "Hardcore" in MMO terms is simply time consuming.
EverQuest Next will have grinding. They might disguise it as 'find the subclasses' or 'find materials to build your house' or 'improve this faction to get a new ability', but there will be hooks that make it every bit as time consuming as every other MMO. That's the nature of the genre and it will never change.
The real question is how do you want to spend your time in an MMO? I'd like to spend it in a game that challenges me because overcoming challenge is rewarding. Maybe you just want to crack open a case of beer and let the game play itself, but there are people who value their time more than you do.
If they can make it interesting and challenging, good for them. If it's interesting and challenging, it won't be a grind, it will be playing a game.
Hey, it could happen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Im reading this topic for quite some time and couldnt resist to reply to it
People here obviously have different terms of "being hardcore". I really dont care about it. Make me an difficult and interesting game which can keep me playing it for more than 3 months and im happy. Plain and simple. Heck, i play LoL for years now, despite it having no long-term reward whatsoever (buying champions, runes etc. doesnt count).
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
the non hardcore thing doesn't bother me. I think hardcore is becoming more of a time consumption, as in you put a shit ton of hours in a week towards something more so then, like hardcore servers where you die and you can get looted and shit. Which are games i try to avoid, since i like to know my time matters and its not just a pvp fest, personally. but yea in all honesty people have nothing to lose with trying this mmo, its free just wait and see. On the other hand dragon's prophet that was announced at soe as well sucks balls!
Originally posted by Ventlus the non hardcore thing doesn't bother me. I think hardcore is becoming more of a time consumption, as in you put a shit ton of hours in a week towards something more so then, like hardcore servers where you die and you can get looted and shit. Which are games i try to avoid, since i like to know my time matters and its not just a pvp fest, personally. but yea in all honesty people have nothing to lose with trying this mmo, its free just wait and see. On the other hand dragon's prophet that was announced at soe as well sucks balls!
I know that this is a bit off-topic, but Dragon Prophet was made by those Runewaker guys, that made Runes of Magic, which a bit explains its crappy UI, cheap texture design, poor gameplay design etc. EQN was made by the core SOE team, while Dragon Prophet is more of a publishing thing (still beyond me why would they publish that junk, though).
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
If you think you should be able to log on for a couple of hours a week and achieve something "significant" then you're precisely what's wrong with mmos.
Soccer mom Sally and baby Billy are the minority in the gaming community but it seems like they're in complete control of this genre.
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:
I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I want the world to have some monsters that no matter how strong I or my companions get they always whoop our asses to create a sense of humility. I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!
I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it. And when I say tier I really mean tier. As in if you don't have the skill or dedication or w/e you can't get any further but you'll try anyway so that you can improve your skills (and you WILL try if you're having fun).
I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like.
Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.
First-time poster here, but wanted to chime in, because I largely agree with these desires. However, I think there's a component that a lot of people are missing.
Part of the desire for "hardcore" is that those of us who cut our teeth on Everquest created enduring memories. Not surprisingly, we're looking for something to recapture those memories, or an experience that's somewhat akin to what we've had before. Perhaps it's just as simple as always looking to find your first love; perhaps it's simply generational.
When I look back at my EQ experience, it was defined by two things: Challenge and Community. I think of how I was grouping by level 6 or 7 because venturing into Blackburrow alone was suicide and making my first friends.I think of the first time someone was giving out free rezzes near the guards, or throwing SoW onto every newbie that ran by and making their life wonderful for 20-odd minutes. Of the first corpse run, and the first time someone helped me get my corpse after falling in said Blackburrow, a favor I repaid a hundredfold later in life. My first guild, I joined not because they were a hardcore raiding guild, but because they spent entire evenings in GFay just helping people and being generally great people.
I think of other people's trains in Unrest and the fear and adrenaline that came with running like hell. Of wandering Oasis and getting slammed by level 40 creatures out of nowhere, and learning carefully what areas of the map to navigate. Of the careful web of interdependency set up by the classes, so that while I always strove towards self-sufficiency, I was always aware that it was a communal game, and that you could accomplish far more in groups than alone. I remember my first Ring/teleport spell (as a druid) and being amazed at the possibilities, because instead of making the world seem smaller, it only seemed more vast. Of peeking into every nook and cranny and getting my nose bit off multiple times.
It goes on. I remember camping spawns and feeling such a sense of accomplishment hours later when what I needed dropped, of epic weapon quests that were badges of pride, and how Gates of Discord ate us up and spit us out night after night, honing our coordination and teamwork until we not only beat Uqua, but mastered it. Of farming faction because yes, it made sense that Freeport didn't like my Erudite SK hanging around, so I'd better find a way to make friends. How every newbie experience was unique, and starting an elf or dwarf seemed like a completely different experience--zones, creatures, quests, etc--than my human and erudite characters. And most of all, the freedom to go places and be told by the level of danger, not by the linear quest lines, where I should be. I loved those unique experiences, and played alts of all varieties to experience them.
Since I retired from EQ, I don't have the time anymore to devote more than 1-2 hours a day. That's fine, really; no complaints here, as I have a family and different priorities. That doesn't stop me from missing it. I've tried a number of MMOs recently, because I miss the genre. The sad thing? They don't generate memories.
I spent a lot of time in SWTOR and GW2. Multiple max-level characters. Yet I can't remember a single fight, or moment, or tradition, or experience that lingers. It's all ephemeral. There's nothing to reminisce about;
Remember that third alt in SWTOR and the exact same soul-crushingly on rails quest path to level up? I think, wow, what pretty games, and I leveled and crafted and explored and then...there was nothing left to do. No more worlds left to conquer.
Oh, remember that time in GW2 where I almost died in that one zone with the centaurs? Or that time when 90 of us spammed our skills at an open-world dragon and I felt like I contributed nothing? It's a beautiful game, but very hollow.
I think that's what a lot of the hardcore crowd desire, and are/were hoping for with EQNext: A return to the challenge and community of the original. I'm not sold that will happen. Will I still play? Sure. I will give them a well-earned chance. But on some level inside, I'm afraid that it'll turn out to be just like SWTOR and GW2--and at that point, the quiet flame I've been nurturing for all these years for a "true" Everquest Next will probably be snuffed out.
I love you, thanks for writing that. I know there's people out there who really understand but it's nice to run into them every once in a while. It's not like I loved every single thing about EQ1 or games like it (FFXI) but they did create memories.
I don't miss them because I was younger and they were my first MMO (I was actually almost equally content in Vanilla WoW which was my 4th MMO). I miss them because they had a level of difficulty that felt appropriate (albeit frustrating at times) at the time and I felt rewarded and bonded with the community because of it. Difficulty builds retention. It's not like I don't want MMO developers to move forward and try new things. But I feel like it the genre has gone to shit because it's gotten too easy (on the whole, not talking about hardmode raids which make up a minute amount of the gameworld).
Comments
Just like I don't understand why people want to play a game to craft staves and swords and shields and have a "player house" -- because people want to do things and they want to feel rewarded by them.
--- And that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, some people will agree with you and some people won't, unfortunately as I said before it is not something you can control unless you actively pursue a path that will make it better, calling anyone that doesnt agree with you "lemmings" is not in any way gonna achieve that, what if hypothetically we made a survey tomorrow of every single MMO player in the world and it came back that the vast majority likes the direction MMORPGs are going what will you do then? Voice your opinion but also respect others.
Sure and that is why wanting a game that is what EQN is going to be is as valid as wanting a game that is hardcore, someone wanting a "hardcore" MMO doesnt diminish someone elses wish to have a game made that fits with the feature set SOE announced. If someones idea of fun is to craft staves and make pretty looking houses in Landmark and just look at them for 8h a day straight while making sure every little detail in that house is absolutely spot on, doesnt diminish their achievement when compared to someone spending 8h a day trying to kill an NPC with 5 other people.
This goes without saying. I'm not gonna play something that isn't fun. Dark Souls is fun, Dota 2 is fun, hell GW2 is fun. As far as quality goes I consider GW2 and a number of other MMO's to to be "good games" but I don't play them for long or as of late even at all....why? Because having to work hard for rewards is gratifying, both in games and in real life. I don't consider hard work to be a prerequisite for fun, but I definitely consider it to be a prerequisite for retention. Nothing worthwhile in life is easy. What makes doing anything feel special is the fact that not many other people have the devotion, skill or some other kind of prerequisite to do it.
I'm certain that if we did take a survey most players would be happy with the way things are going. The majority of MMO players today ARE casual players that claim to want an easy game with innovative and interesting features. But they're getting what they ask for and are still not happy. Now here's where the opinion comes in but I believe that it's because they don't know what they really want. People like me are not getting much of a choice in the matter and it sucks, even though there's quite alot of us (and no i'm not saying people with exactly my tastes but I'm not asking for exactly the game I want. I just want a good quality game with a fantasy setting that's marketed towards a hardcore audience. Sadly we're not a target audience for anyone that makes polished games anymore).
So let me ask you a question what in your opinion would make EQN the hardcore game you want?
I've made numerous threads recently on the subject but I'll go ahead and lay some of it out again here:
I want battles to be hard, but logically so. I want to be able to one-shot a bunny but struggle to take down a wolf unless I got good armor/weapons or magic (or die if i fall prey to a pack of them). I want the world to have some monsters that no matter how strong I or my companions get they always whoop our asses to create a sense of humility. I don't wanna roam the world mindlessly going around without fear about my surroundings. I want to fall to my death or die from a trap if i'm not careful or get mauled by hordes of enemies for going into dark dangerous looking places without preparation or a party. For that matter I want to be afraid of dying!
I want content to be tiered so that there's content for less skilled or new players to work on and develop their skills but for there to be other areas and monsters to fight that are only available to people with the skill and dedication to make it there. Having a world with people working on different tier content at the same time feels more organic and natural and creates both a sense of awe, curiosity and purpose in people who haven't done the hardest stuff yet and a sense of achievement and superiority for the people that HAVE done it. And when I say tier I really mean tier. As in if you don't have the skill or dedication or w/e you can't get any further but you'll try anyway so that you can improve your skills (and you WILL try if you're having fun).
I want to be engaged in the quests I undertake. Like actually mentally stimulated. I want to HAVE to read or carefully listen to the questline to have a chance at completing it. I want to solve puzzles and the like.
Simply put, I want to be challenged. The game doesn't have to be my level of challenging all throughout but I do want more than 5% of the content to be hard. Otherwise it's just a race to the finish so that I can get to the point where i'm actually having to try.
I honestly think you have prematurely written off the game, I think EQN has the potential to have exactly what you want, and I dont know if it will or not from what they told us so far, I wouldnt be surprised that the procedural content you get underground falls under different levels of difficulty and that you might end up finding something that is really hard or something that is of an easy nature.
I imagine with the announcement of guild cities and destructible environment there is likely going to be challenging PVP if they decide to add sieges and territorial control.
From your list what I think will be unlikely to be in the game is a harsh death penalty, but that is not the only way to instil fear of dying, if the world is huge and you are exploring in a secluded corner fear of dying is still there if you have to walk back for 20min to join your group.
I'm not holding my breath. I think it would be fairly obvious at this point if they were currently intending to up the ante in terms of challenge. Now I AM hoping that maybe at some point they open a round table poll about it and we get the opportunity to change their mind but I'm fairly confident that even if they made the game harder we'd get changes post launch to appease the mass of people that gets stuck (and we come back full circle). The larger you want you want your game population to be the more people you have to push along. As I said before us hardcore people that WANT a challenge and don't expect or want content to be nerfed to our abilities are more than you'd expect but we're certainly not in the millions (which is what EQN is gunning for).
I saw that differently
I should of known.. looks like you're going to be right yet again... tragically right
I would love to have seen their running game when they were first going in the style of EQ1 instead of Disney.
Because their engine is truly great.
What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read my posts?
I'm not a "casualization" advocate, I'm just pointing out what should be obvious to anyone with half a brain: a good (and profitable) game caters to several types of players; both people who spend their entire waking time in game and those with only a couple of hours a week should be able to enjoy the game, albeit in different ways and with different kinds of in game results.
A good game is neither casual or hardcore, it gives players options. If I have a busy week I should be able to log on a few times and still get some things done and have some fun, and when I'm on vacation or have more spare time I'll spend days on end committing myself to the more demanding stuff.
Of course, if I never play more than a couple of hours a week on the game, I'll never have the same in game wealth/power/fame/e-peen as the nolifer, but I should not have to commit my life to the game just to feel any sense of enjoyment or accomplishment either. As I said, options are good.
I totally agree that MMOs have been far too slanted towards the casual market lately, which (among other reasons) is why most recent games have failed - MMOs can not be too shallow and easy, since they thrive on player retention and multiple layers of difficulty and time investement. If they're too simple, people just blow through content and then leave.
But MMOs can't be too "hardcore" either, at least not if the developers spent enormous chunks of investor money building the game. The target audience for extremely steep learning curves, punishing game mechanics and huge timesinks is just too small. To me personally, those kind of games can be a lot of fun, but most people are not attracted by them which is why AAA devs don't make them. So, if we want to play them we're stuck with indies and crowd funding.
Wishing for this to change based on some naîve idea of justice (e.g. "it's the hardcore players' turn now!") is delusional at best. There will not be a major AAA super hardcore game any time soon, sorry. The market doesn't work that way and being bitter about it won't change anything.
so with other words, it´s for the usual audience that is shared with the other three dozens of common MMOs...
arghhh how I hate the word "accessible".. yuck
It annoys me that some entitled people want to be able to play a few hours a week and expect all the rewards handed to them with a pat of there head for good measure.
SWTOR tried to pair a substandard MMO with a gimmick. If EQN does the same thing it will ultimately fail. They should have made the Combat and Class system more complex since they were doing something so dynamic with the world and AI.
The backbone of this thing looks to be flawed.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
Doh that's 15 year gap between the screen shots what we want is the game they made before the uturn 2 years ago.
First-time poster here, but wanted to chime in, because I largely agree with these desires. However, I think there's a component that a lot of people are missing.
Part of the desire for "hardcore" is that those of us who cut our teeth on Everquest created enduring memories. Not surprisingly, we're looking for something to recapture those memories, or an experience that's somewhat akin to what we've had before. Perhaps it's just as simple as always looking to find your first love; perhaps it's simply generational.
When I look back at my EQ experience, it was defined by two things: Challenge and Community. I think of how I was grouping by level 6 or 7 because venturing into Blackburrow alone was suicide and making my first friends.I think of the first time someone was giving out free rezzes near the guards, or throwing SoW onto every newbie that ran by and making their life wonderful for 20-odd minutes. Of the first corpse run, and the first time someone helped me get my corpse after falling in said Blackburrow, a favor I repaid a hundredfold later in life. My first guild, I joined not because they were a hardcore raiding guild, but because they spent entire evenings in GFay just helping people and being generally great people.
I think of other people's trains in Unrest and the fear and adrenaline that came with running like hell. Of wandering Oasis and getting slammed by level 40 creatures out of nowhere, and learning carefully what areas of the map to navigate. Of the careful web of interdependency set up by the classes, so that while I always strove towards self-sufficiency, I was always aware that it was a communal game, and that you could accomplish far more in groups than alone. I remember my first Ring/teleport spell (as a druid) and being amazed at the possibilities, because instead of making the world seem smaller, it only seemed more vast. Of peeking into every nook and cranny and getting my nose bit off multiple times.
It goes on. I remember camping spawns and feeling such a sense of accomplishment hours later when what I needed dropped, of epic weapon quests that were badges of pride, and how Gates of Discord ate us up and spit us out night after night, honing our coordination and teamwork until we not only beat Uqua, but mastered it. Of farming faction because yes, it made sense that Freeport didn't like my Erudite SK hanging around, so I'd better find a way to make friends. How every newbie experience was unique, and starting an elf or dwarf seemed like a completely different experience--zones, creatures, quests, etc--than my human and erudite characters. And most of all, the freedom to go places and be told by the level of danger, not by the linear quest lines, where I should be. I loved those unique experiences, and played alts of all varieties to experience them.
Since I retired from EQ, I don't have the time anymore to devote more than 1-2 hours a day. That's fine, really; no complaints here, as I have a family and different priorities. That doesn't stop me from missing it. I've tried a number of MMOs recently, because I miss the genre. The sad thing? They don't generate memories.
I spent a lot of time in SWTOR and GW2. Multiple max-level characters. Yet I can't remember a single fight, or moment, or tradition, or experience that lingers. It's all ephemeral. There's nothing to reminisce about;
Remember that third alt in SWTOR and the exact same soul-crushingly on rails quest path to level up? I think, wow, what pretty games, and I leveled and crafted and explored and then...there was nothing left to do. No more worlds left to conquer.
Oh, remember that time in GW2 where I almost died in that one zone with the centaurs? Or that time when 90 of us spammed our skills at an open-world dragon and I felt like I contributed nothing? It's a beautiful game, but very hollow.
I think that's what a lot of the hardcore crowd desire, and are/were hoping for with EQNext: A return to the challenge and community of the original. I'm not sold that will happen. Will I still play? Sure. I will give them a well-earned chance. But on some level inside, I'm afraid that it'll turn out to be just like SWTOR and GW2--and at that point, the quiet flame I've been nurturing for all these years for a "true" Everquest Next will probably be snuffed out.EverQuest Next will have grinding. They might disguise it as 'find the subclasses' or 'find materials to build your house' or 'improve this faction to get a new ability', but there will be hooks that make it every bit as time consuming as every other MMO. That's the nature of the genre and it will never change.
The real question is how do you want to spend your time in an MMO? I'd like to spend it in a game that challenges me because overcoming challenge is rewarding. Maybe you just want to crack open a case of beer and let the game play itself, but there are people who value their time more than you do.
The real question is how do you want to spend your time in an MMO? I'd like to spend it in a game that challenges me because overcoming challenge is rewarding. Maybe you just want to crack open a case of beer and let the game play itself, but there are people who value their time more than you do.
If they can make it interesting and challenging, good for them. If it's interesting and challenging, it won't be a grind, it will be playing a game.
Hey, it could happen.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Im reading this topic for quite some time and couldnt resist to reply to it
People here obviously have different terms of "being hardcore". I really dont care about it. Make me an difficult and interesting game which can keep me playing it for more than 3 months and im happy. Plain and simple. Heck, i play LoL for years now, despite it having no long-term reward whatsoever (buying champions, runes etc. doesnt count).
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I know that this is a bit off-topic, but Dragon Prophet was made by those Runewaker guys, that made Runes of Magic, which a bit explains its crappy UI, cheap texture design, poor gameplay design etc. EQN was made by the core SOE team, while Dragon Prophet is more of a publishing thing (still beyond me why would they publish that junk, though).
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
If you think you should be able to log on for a couple of hours a week and achieve something "significant" then you're precisely what's wrong with mmos.
Soccer mom Sally and baby Billy are the minority in the gaming community but it seems like they're in complete control of this genre.
I love you, thanks for writing that. I know there's people out there who really understand but it's nice to run into them every once in a while. It's not like I loved every single thing about EQ1 or games like it (FFXI) but they did create memories.
I don't miss them because I was younger and they were my first MMO (I was actually almost equally content in Vanilla WoW which was my 4th MMO). I miss them because they had a level of difficulty that felt appropriate (albeit frustrating at times) at the time and I felt rewarded and bonded with the community because of it. Difficulty builds retention. It's not like I don't want MMO developers to move forward and try new things. But I feel like it the genre has gone to shit because it's gotten too easy (on the whole, not talking about hardmode raids which make up a minute amount of the gameworld).
It's infuriating. They've learned all the wrong lessons from WoW.
They've said to themselves: 'Hmmm, WoW made itself simpler and won itself a twelve million subscriber audience'.
But they didn't look and see that WoW has now made itself so simple that its a bore to play - and that it's lost three million subs because of it.
Comical pandas = Cereal ad lions.