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Problem 226082602868206 of the non-trinity system.
Kiyoris
Member RarePosts: 2,130
A trinity system creates fear because only together can people survive.
If your tank fails in a trinity system, the group is dead. If your healer fails in a trinity system, the group is dead
An action system where no one tanks, developers increase the armor and survivability on all classes so they can all take hits.
It greatly reduces the amount of fear when something goes wrong.
Comments
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Same "Fear" happends in non-trinity systems, all depends on the group skill/Dungeon dificulty.
now: GW2 (11 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Trinity has nothing to do with THEMEPARK/SANDBOX.
some FPS also have the same concept.
Also PvP in most games consist of the same thing mentally when PvP is random event to occur .
sandbox is about building. Nothing related to trinity or not. Look at GW2.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Your premise is not true.
1) The trinity system is generally only useful in group activities. If there is plenty of solo content, then the trinity system is not a factor.
2) You can have group content that doesn't require hard classed roles, which would result in the same effect of needing groups to survive.
Not bothering with hard classed roles just gets rid of the "I'm a special snowflake" effect. Players actually have to be good players, not good at picking the flavor of the month class.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
That's why MMOs without or with a weak Trinity system are not challenging and therefore boring.
In a Trinity system everyone has to be good and pay attention, and since Developers thinks that all players don't like a challenge and like to steamroll the mobs, that's why we have all those boring MMOs that people stop playing after 2 months.
It's the hard truth.
People might not like the Trinity but it is the only way you can keep the combat interesting.
That number that is in your title is also the number of times that you've posted the same incorrect, negative misinformation on how the EQN role system is planned. Given the amount of times that you have been corrected, and referred to accurate data from the SOE Live Panels, it is apparent that you are here purely to push your agenda. Your message is loud and clear: you dislike EQN. Can you please move on and refrain from trolling all the threads?
As I posted in another thread, here is the accurate information to counter people like this who are actively making an effort to spread false information.
Class Panel part 2
Pay attention to 13:30 and 19:18 where roles, strategy, group dynamic, and NPC AI are explicitly addressed.
Nothing to do with themeparks? Everquest, the father of all themepark mmos, spawned the trinity system. It was created to deal with scripted encounters at the end of raids and dungeons, I've never experienced it in UO, AC or SWG. Surprisingly, raids in these mmos are nothing like their themepark counterparts. Name one sandbox mmo that has successfully utilized the trinity system and I'll show you a way that EQN could probably do it. Then we both could stop listening to the excessive groaning about a system born from themepark mmos, refined for themepark mmos and ultimately will die with themepark mmos.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Go play group content in GW2 and then reort back here. There is no player dependancy on each other at all. Group play is basically 5 people soloing the same mob until it dies.
In GW2, every class heals itself and does as much DPS as it can. All combat boils down to is dodging out of red circles and killing the mob.
Why is this bad? Because every encounter has to be tuned so that every class can survive getting hit. You either dodge, or you die. This means DPS reigns supreme since there is no use in doing anything else.
They can blabber on and on all they want about making the mobs smart, but that won't change the fact that group combat is still going to be a bunch of players soloing in the same area.
Yeah I dont remember trinity ever being needed in UO and SWG and those games where still fun to play and not easy.
jesus stop saying that, EQ wasn't a themepark, if you never played it then for the love of God be quiet
you again
Trinity is a term created by the EQ community, it had nothing to do with scripted encounters or raids
Trinity was what the community called Enchanter-Warrior-Cleric, because they were OP at one point, so they were called Holy Trinity.
sorry but jesus, stop talking about a game you never played
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
SWG did have the Trinity btw, groups without a doctor generally didnt do too well, same with someone there to grab the aggro and allow the others to dps the target, although the groups were much larger (20 players) so having several healers was not unusual. And it doesnt even end there, the Trinity is also present in Eve online, where often combat can be dependent on how well the teams work together, from healers (logistic ships) to having ships able to tank the damage and also ships able to put out significant amount of damage, not to mention CC from EWAR, neuts, webs, warp scrams, etc etc. Games that don't have some form of trinity, tend to be a bit naff.
I honestly do not feel that is the reason devs go this route,i actually feel their main focus is on how to make a gamer cheaper and acceptable and they look for one gimmick to PR all over the place.
Designing a system without Trinity is easier,you can make less items and gear and no need to test your system,just give everyone basically the same dps and same survival.
Soe was already famous for repeating ideas in their past games,both good and evil sides had very similar ideas in their classes.All they did was swap one wording for another,so instead of 300 fire damage you get 300 poison damage or 300 of some other kind of damage,it really made many classes feel the same.Then for Tanks it was always the same mechanics again,not much creativity or versatility in their design,but then again ,nobody else is doing any better.
Soe is also known for repeating the same model and icons for their items and gear,they really do look to cut a lot of corners,probably also why they are famous for releasing a lot of bugs,they cut corners on testing and fixing as well.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
What you have just described is actually a problem WITH the trinity system, not a benefit. It puts way too much responsibility for the group on just 1 or 2 people, while the rest more or less sit back & pew pew. It also makes getting groups HARDER because you need to find those 1 or 2 rare people that have the gear, are competent enough, play well with others, have enough time to do a run/raid, and are willing to group with you at the current time. Playing one of 2 classes types that are the least popular in these types of games.
- Also, your assumption on action combat is DEAD wrong. Just look at gw2. There are only a couple classes with high armor / mitigation (guardian & warrior), one of which dies very easily if you aren't careful. Then you look at the thief, which dies if he's as much as sneezed at, and requires skilled dodging & evasion to stay alive. But is also very much vital to a groups success, both for damage & utility (safe reses w/ shadow refuge, reflection of projectiles, venoms, party-wide long duration stealth).
Anyone who's done the higher lvl fractals, or had half their party whipe on lupicus, knows that there is still fear there. It's just not all based around the same 1 or 2 classes. So your tank dies? Well, if he was bad to begin with it's still annoying, but not the end of the world. But if your really good tank dies? Well, then you start to panic & debate on trying to waste time reviving him, whipe, or tough it out.
** In short, the main difference between trinity & non-trinity based combat systems; is that in trinity based games your class makes up most of your prestige. Choose a tank? Tada! Magically everyone wants to group with you. Wanna be a healer? Bam! Now everyone's your friend.
In non-trinity games, that doesn't happen. People group with you (or not) based on your own merits. Not based on whether or not you happen to have picked that desired class that no one wants to play.
I understand why that scares people, or how some people wouldn't like it, but it is a step towards more interesting games, that actually start challenging us again. As well as making us think about what we are doing within a game.
Are you implying that because the trinity has not been successfully used in a sandbox game that it's strictly a themepark mechanic? Hmmm, if it has never been successfully used in a sandbox I think we would need to examine why. Could it be that we simply don't have a sufficient number of sandbox games to gather data on? Could it be that many of these games are PVP focused and traditional aspects of the mechanic fail on execution when AI is removed from the equation? Could it be that sandbox games do in fact use a variant of the trinity?
I think MMOExposed is suggesting that having a trinity versus not having a trinity does not dictate if a game is themepark or sandbox. It seems like your argument is that the trinity can only be used in themepark games. It's fairly obvious that your definitions of sandbox and themepark are completely different.
Point is it was a option like its going to be in EQ Next , you don't need trinity to get by in SWG or EVE and it wasn't needed in UO. Yes its better to play with a organized group but you are not force to so in a sandbox and you can still have fun. In a Themepark game , no tank or no healer means you are not doing any raid or dungeon tell one or the other shows up.
Guild Wars 1 has non-traditional group builds that were very effective.
There were ToPK group builds that had no group healer or aggro management character. A group of rangers would use expendable animal pets, and their exploitable corpses were then used by necromancers to create non-player meat-shields. And since Necromancer excel at doing ranged dps through cursing as well as creating 'minion bombs', and rangers excel at ranged DoTs and kiting, it all worked.
People are always more effective in a group when the game allows the freedom of non-traditional combinations and the content is intelligently designed to bypass class restrictions through allowing interdependency, and reward the community's ingenuity. The trinity system was only 1 way of rewarding group play. It isn't the only way.
What!?!
How is it easier? There's a reason most MMOs are trinity games. When you make a trinity game all the roles are spelled out for you. You just need to color them in, and add some cool animations to make them feel good. Also much of the balancing is already done for you, because it's using the same math that has existed for the past 20 years.
Non-trinity games involve designing completely new class dynamics. You're inventing a new system, trying to make it complex enough to be interesting, AND trying to make sure that the math behind it keeps it more or less balanced.
Your example of SoE just proves this.
I'd say designing a non-trinity system is harder, not easier.
People just really like structure, they enjoy being told what to do and when to do it. That is why the trinity system is enjoyed so much.
This and this all day.
While i prefer the trinity, it's really not handled well and needs a facelift of sorts.
All you really need to be successful is a good tank and healer while everyone else rides on their coattails. How do you put more emphasis on the rest of the group that wants to "dps only"? How can the trinity be expanded upon?
I'd say put less emphasis on dps and rage timers and more on control and survivability. I say this as a mostly a dps player myself. It's pretty boring.
Simply removing aggro management mechanics (taunts) when NPC's have to use a static one-size-fits-all combat script is where it all goes wrong.
The theory is that in EQNext the adaptive AI and personalities of the NPC's will result in far more complex fights. It will no longer be neccessary to hamstring a NPC with one generic combat script. They should be able to change their tactics according to the threat they're facing. Obviously the "skill" of the NPC can be adjusted according to the level of the fight.
In theory.