A trinity system creates fear because only together can people survive.
If your tank fails in a trinity system, the group is dead. If your healer fails in a trinity system, the group is dead
An action system where no one tanks, developers increase the armor and survivability on all classes so they can all take hits.
It greatly reduces the amount of fear when something goes wrong.
Exactly what I am SICK of in games. I like to play support roles, and I'm sick of not being able to defend myself once my tank is down. Or if I'm playing DPS, my healers gone? well i'm a completely useless bunch of fuck now.
I play WoW, and will continue to play WoW until I get tired of it, but that is just gameplay of the past.
If I'm playing support, and the people i'm supporting are killed, there is just no reason I shouldn't be able to adequately defend my self. It may not be defending my self with DPS, but rather movement, or creating a hole in the ground for you to fall in.
The fear for me is greater, knowing that I'm playing a support class (probably wearing cloth) so I can't take heavy damage.. And my bud that was taking the damage died, so now it's all up to me. And thanks to EQ:N for not having the trinity, because I'll now be a viable last resort. Instead of "healers only man up, we're fucked"
What I'm saying is the trinity is nice.... if you're playing themeparks.
This isn't a themepark, never was going to be, they've clearly stated it is a sandbox, so why are you complaining about the trinity in a sandbox game? It's NEVER existed in sandbox games and it NEVER will.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 As I've posted time and time again (I guess I'll have to until you get it) the trinity system is a theme park mechanic. This is a sandbox mmorpg.
Trinity has nothing to do with THEMEPARK/SANDBOX.
some FPS also have the same concept.
Also PvP in most games consist of the same thing mentally when PvP is random event to occur .
sandbox is about building. Nothing related to trinity or not. Look at GW2.
Nothing to do with themeparks? Everquest, the father of all themepark mmos, spawned the trinity system. It was created to deal with scripted encounters at the end of raids and dungeons, I've never experienced it in UO, AC or SWG. Surprisingly, raids in these mmos are nothing like their themepark counterparts. Name one sandbox mmo that has successfully utilized the trinity system and I'll show you a way that EQN could probably do it. Then we both could stop listening to the excessive groaning about a system born from themepark mmos, refined for themepark mmos and ultimately will die with themepark mmos.
Yeah I dont remember trinity ever being needed in UO and SWG and those games where still fun to play and not easy.
SWG did have the Trinity btw, groups without a doctor generally didnt do too well, same with someone there to grab the aggro and allow the others to dps the target, although the groups were much larger (20 players) so having several healers was not unusual. And it doesnt even end there, the Trinity is also present in Eve online, where often combat can be dependent on how well the teams work together, from healers (logistic ships) to having ships able to tank the damage and also ships able to put out significant amount of damage, not to mention CC from EWAR, neuts, webs, warp scrams, etc etc. Games that don't have some form of trinity, tend to be a bit naff.
Point is it was a option like its going to be in EQ Next , you don't need trinity to get by in SWG or EVE and it wasn't needed in UO. Yes its better to play with a organized group but you are not force to so in a sandbox and you can still have fun. In a Themepark game , no tank or no healer means you are not doing any raid or dungeon tell one or the other shows up.
PVP in Eve is way more structured than you think, and fleet fits are often predetermined and you 'must' use them, at least if you want to take part in the action, so the 'go away or come back with a basilisk/scimitar' etc does happen, small group pvp is even more dependent on teamwork and having the right fits - unless its a gank and the idea then is to go for max dps because your ships are toast either way. And in SWG you had to have a few different types along, although this is pretty much pre-nge, post nge the game was a bit naff... probably for that reason too. The point is, MMO's are games that involve a lot of people, you can go the route GW2 did and have them all doing their own thing regardless, and so little to no community/communication, or you can go the route where there is actual interdependance, whether a game is Themepark or Sandbox is irrelevant in this regard, without interdependance, there is little or no need for community or social interraction, and games without that have little or no longevity.
A trinity system creates fear because only together can people survive.
If your tank fails in a trinity system, the group is dead. If your healer fails in a trinity system, the group is dead
An action system where no one tanks, developers increase the armor and survivability on all classes so they can all take hits.
It greatly reduces the amount of fear when something goes wrong.
That number that is in your title is also the number of times that you've posted the same incorrect, negative misinformation on how the EQN role system is planned. Given the amount of times that you have been corrected, and referred to accurate data from the SOE Live Panels, it is apparent that you are here purely to push your agenda. Your message is loud and clear: you dislike EQN. Can you please move on and refrain from trolling all the threads?
As I posted in another thread, here is the accurate information to counter people like this who are actively making an effort to spread false information.
Pay attention to 13:30 and 19:18 where roles, strategy, group dynamic, and NPC AI are explicitly addressed.
You are somewhat right.. but nevertheless not completely. The problem is that a lot of people, and in that case you too, do simplify it. To basicly a black/white answer trinity or no trinity at all.
form 14:15 to 14:30
"It's not to say we are walking away from roles. It is certainly not to say we are walking away from responsability. Both personal, strategical and tactical responsability."
So we do have different roles. He further refered that you don't have to wait for one certain character. This has more to do with multiclassing, and a lot of people can before a fight choose different roles.
But the old aggro/taunt mechanism is gone. And one reason for it is the better, reactive AI.
What does this effectively mean? The old trinity system with one main tank holding all aggro from all mobs with one simple taunt attack is gone. And withit that one healer just can focus heal this one tank.
Now fights will be different, and all members have to react with any new situation in combat. And basicly it means that combat is much more like we are used to in Group PvP for a very long time. Maybe not so much, if you just have to deal with one big boss mob.. but certainly when you have to deal with more enemies.
This will require new skills, and new approaches for a defensive tank. And more or less just for the defensive tank. Almost all other roles we are familar with can stay as they are. Maybe you have to watch the combat more actively as a healer, because you can't just heal this one main tank, and maybe you have to heal some other to, from time to time.
As i already said in games like DAoC or even WAR the def tank do have some abilities to protect and to tank without the need of any aggro system... mostly because both of those games heavily focues on pvp, too.. where those system never worked in the first place.
We don't know what specific skills or roles any of those 40 classes will fullfil, we don't know how different tactics will work out. But to assume that it will be anything like GW2 you make a hasty judgement. Because in GW2 the not only removed the aggro mechanism, they removed the Healer class, and Healing overall, they removed any tanking ability, they removed any serious Crowd Control.. with other words GW2 really did away with almost everything we were used to in the past.
And i have to agree to some extent, that it didn't work out they way a lot of people hoped for. More often than not it was pure chaos and more often than not reduced to do more dps. Of course.. even in GW2 it is not that simpilistic.
In conclusion we can't say the trinity is gone, but the trinity have to evolve in EQN.. and now we have to wait until we hear anything in specific about the different classes, about the different available roles, and about specific skills for specific tasks.
These threads fighting over what and whatnot is trinity is silly here is my side ands its not about trinity but more about play style and fulfilling a role in a mmorpg and not single player game.
Say I want to be a healer which I love doing I want to keeps group alive and doing so makes me feel good and enjoy playing a game should be priority to all gamers. If I want to tank and keeps group safe from aggro/mob hate I will feel great if I do so and I achieve my role happily.
If there are no roles so all have healing tanking crowd control and damage dealing abilities but limited you have nothing to look forward to achieve and also no need to communicate with other players so 0 socializing. Everyone that wants this jack of all trades roles but master of none are single player gamers and companies making games like that wants to attract that crowd.
Personally I want to be identified as a role in a role playing game the system in gw2 makes everyone the same you don't have a role.
"mmorpg.com forum admins are all TROLLS and losers in real life" My opinion
Originally posted by Ramonski7 As I've posted time and time again (I guess I'll have to until you get it) the trinity system is a theme park mechanic. This is a sandbox mmorpg.
No I don't believe this game is or will be a sandbox. Developers are going to script what you do and why. Sandbox games that are pve focused are just people farming stuff for their own use, and this will not be that type of game.
You need a trinity for good and entertaining grouping, or it becomes mindless crap like all dynamic events end up being always. In fact the trinity is the foundation, I think that for the best group mechanics you need more than the heals/tank/two or three dps. You need a CC specific class and no CC on other classes, you need a buffing class with no buffs on other classes, and you need a debuff class with the role limited to them.
This adds variety, beyond the "ok you heal you tank and we just spam the dps"
Oh and im so sick of the fact that sandbox became a buzzword to apply to any and tall types of games just to label it that. Yeah Yeah you can call stuff sandboxy, there are things that might work well in a sandbox, but the "rides" don't determine if its sandbox or not...no player housing, growing crops, destruction and regrowth IS NOT SANDBOX...a games progression doesn't make it sandbox, you can have levels in a sandbox and having skill on use as progression doesn't make sandbox..when a developer crafts your motives, your goals, and your content for you its not a damn sandbox...really wish people would get this though their thick skulls already.
And no, smedly doesn't know what the hell a mmo sandbox is, he called PS2 a sandbox and I guess that kind of fits since its not an rpg and theres no real story or motives in the game at all beyond killing people for explosions and points.
Hell I think they even said its not a sandbox and its not a linear themepark its something else, which means a non linear themepark. Which I think would describe what they are really trying to do with the game best.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 As I've posted time and time again (I guess I'll have to until you get it) the trinity system is a theme park mechanic. This is a sandbox mmorpg.
Trinity has nothing to do with THEMEPARK/SANDBOX.
some FPS also have the same concept.
Also PvP in most games consist of the same thing mentally when PvP is random event to occur .
sandbox is about building. Nothing related to trinity or not. Look at GW2.
Nothing to do with themeparks? Everquest, the father of all themepark mmos, spawned the trinity system. It was created to deal with scripted encounters at the end of raids and dungeons, I've never experienced it in UO, AC or SWG. Surprisingly, raids in these mmos are nothing like their themepark counterparts. Name one sandbox mmo that has successfully utilized the trinity system and I'll show you a way that EQN could probably do it. Then we both could stop listening to the excessive groaning about a system born from themepark mmos, refined for themepark mmos and ultimately will die with themepark mmos.
Yeah I dont remember trinity ever being needed in UO and SWG and those games where still fun to play and not easy.
SWG did have the Trinity btw, groups without a doctor generally didnt do too well, same with someone there to grab the aggro and allow the others to dps the target, although the groups were much larger (20 players) so having several healers was not unusual. And it doesnt even end there, the Trinity is also present in Eve online, where often combat can be dependent on how well the teams work together, from healers (logistic ships) to having ships able to tank the damage and also ships able to put out significant amount of damage, not to mention CC from EWAR, neuts, webs, warp scrams, etc etc. Games that don't have some form of trinity, tend to be a bit naff.
Point is it was a option like its going to be in EQ Next , you don't need trinity to get by in SWG or EVE and it wasn't needed in UO. Yes its better to play with a organized group but you are not force to so in a sandbox and you can still have fun. In a Themepark game , no tank or no healer means you are not doing any raid or dungeon tell one or the other shows up.
PVP in Eve is way more structured than you think, and fleet fits are often predetermined and you 'must' use them, at least if you want to take part in the action, so the 'go away or come back with a basilisk/scimitar' etc does happen, small group pvp is even more dependent on teamwork and having the right fits - unless its a gank and the idea then is to go for max dps because your ships are toast either way. And in SWG you had to have a few different types along, although this is pretty much pre-nge, post nge the game was a bit naff... probably for that reason too. The point is, MMO's are games that involve a lot of people, you can go the route GW2 did and have them all doing their own thing regardless, and so little to no community/communication, or you can go the route where there is actual interdependance, whether a game is Themepark or Sandbox is irrelevant in this regard, without interdependance, there is little or no need for community or social interraction, and games without that have little or no longevity.
Guildwars 2 is doing just fine and content for the game is coming out every two weeks. You completely miss the point of what I said. A game that relies on trinity for end game like most themeparks limits the freedom of what players can do in the game, you dependent on groups to get anything done in end game and end game is the only thing for max level players to do unless they like alt leveling or crafting. Sandbox games is about freedom of choice, I can group with others and play like a trinity or I dont have too and still be able to do things in the game. Yes its better to play in groups working together but your not going to be handicap by a missing a certain player, some one else can fill the role by switching classes or you can come up with a new way to deal with what you are doing. There are going to be no scripted instance dungeons in EQnext that you usually need trinity to deal with. Also I can go and find solo pvp in EVE easy enough a lot players do that. Sandboxes are about options not requirements.
You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
Guild Wars 1 has non-traditional group builds that were very effective.
There were ToPK group builds that had no group healer or aggro management character. A group of rangers would use expendable animal pets, and their exploitable corpses were then used by necromancers to create non-player meat-shields. And since Necromancer excel at doing ranged dps through cursing as well as creating 'minion bombs', and rangers excel at ranged DoTs and kiting, it all worked.
People are always more effective in a group when the game allows the freedom of non-traditional combinations and the content is intelligently designed to bypass class restrictions through allowing interdependency, and reward the community's ingenuity. The trinity system was only 1 way of rewarding group play. It isn't the only way.
Fortunately, there are a lot of people that get this. I see the more progressive EQ fans and the GW1 fans who hate GW2 to be the main demographic base for EQN. I'm looking forward to the meld.
The people that clamored for change, who made all these threads over the years screaming for something to break the mold of the last 8 years, then finally got it and now they are still complaining.. Well, there are 1001 clones out there doing the same thing with the same tired mechanics that they are afraid to leave. They don't get it. Frankly, that's fine as well. Move along, and go back to your comfort zones.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle From everything I watched I am not convinced there is no trinity in the game. They did say it was not required but they didnt say its not an option. Much like ESO you can trinity but if you stick to just that tactic alone the mobs will figure it out and come at you from another angle. So change or your team may not fair well. They were very clear that tank type players would be happy and felt like they had a place in EQN. There goal is not to alienate that type of player. They did say the classic taunt skill that does nothing but get aggro will not be in the game but that does not exclude attack skills that do build aggro. So tanking/control of a limited number of mobs maybe how its done. Trinity seems to me its not the static build of the team. Everyone will need to use the class tools they have been given to win. Tank and heal will be just one of many tools players will use but any other will be just as viable.
I hope this is true. This would be the ideal solution. I don't believe that all trinity or all zerg are the only two possibilities to handle fighting. The trinity tactic should have a place but it should not be mandatory and it would only be one out of a set of different tactics that work on different mobs at different times. There should be some kind of player interaction involved in every fight. This would be very hard to balance but that would be worth it.
WHat happens when you put a brain cell or two into a Boss`head, and he realise that he not have to keep hitting that dude with thick plates and a billion hp just because he keep calling him a idiot?
If you have a really good AI you could simply simulate pvp combat.
I imagine that PVE will be burst dps mixed up with peels, short duration burst heals and shielding mechanics. Everybody needs to be alert and use the abillities needed in the moment - you cant just stand there and do your rotation, you need to cast a stun if that can save a teammate. Ppl have to heal and bandage low hp party members so they wont become easy pray. Pretty much exactly like pvp combat.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle From everything I watched I am not convinced there is no trinity in the game. They did say it was not required but they didnt say its not an option. Much like ESO you can trinity but if you stick to just that tactic alone the mobs will figure it out and come at you from another angle. So change or your team may not fair well. They were very clear that tank type players would be happy and felt like they had a place in EQN. There goal is not to alienate that type of player. They did say the classic taunt skill that does nothing but get aggro will not be in the game but that does not exclude attack skills that do build aggro. So tanking/control of a limited number of mobs maybe how its done. Trinity seems to me its not the static build of the team. Everyone will need to use the class tools they have been given to win. Tank and heal will be just one of many tools players will use but any other will be just as viable.
I'd say put less emphasis on dps and rage timers and more on control and survivability. I say this as a mostly a dps player myself. It's pretty boring.
Actually, tight enrage timers are a great thing. It means that having strong tanks and healers is no longer "good enough", and makes great DPS a valuable commodity.
I do agree that I would like to see more focus on things like control, and buffing/debuffing. I think the Trinity needs to expand, not go away.
I'm of the mind set that the Action Combat will play more like LoL. Where you wipe (like in toilet paper) and repeat. You spawn run into battle and do your DPS on another DPS, one of you dies first. That guy spawns and runs back and finishes killing the first guy because that guy didn't heal. Sounds like louds of fun.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Originally posted by Konfess I'm of the mind set that the Action Combat will play more like LoL. Where you wipe (like in toilet paper) and repeat. You spawn run into battle and do your DPS on another DPS, one of you dies first. That guy spawns and runs back and finishes killing the first guy because that guy didn't heal. Sounds like louds of fun.
Originally posted by Kyllien You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
if you want good PvE content (as in challenging) do not play Sandboxes. No sandbox ever has had good PvE content (SWG, UO, AC, Darkfall, Mortal Online etc.), sandbox modes in past RPG games were for role playing, and (sometimes) PvP.
People don't play sandboxes for grouping. It won't matter that this game does not have trinity, because it is basically one big GW2 world event all the time. Everything scales, and everyone can do their own thing and look out for themselves while the zerg whittles it down.
Originally posted by Kyllien You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
Good luck with that.. The mobs have to be easy peasy if you want players other then TANKS to survive.. Even in GW2 if a champion mob wacks me as a squishy.. I"m hurt.. two wacks and I'm dead.. Even my Necro has a hard time fending off Veteran mobs in GW2.. I won't even begin to tell you how fast a cloth toons dies again a WoW elite... WITHOUT a designated meat shield, you can never truly have dynamic combat.. Without the trinity type of combat, you are cornering yourself into only having mobs that won't kill a squishy in 3 swings...... What fun is that?
Originally posted by Ramonski7 As I've posted time and time again (I guess I'll have to until you get it) the trinity system is a theme park mechanic. This is a sandbox mmorpg.
This is so true.
Asheron's Call is a Sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
SWG was a sandbox, has no trinity, still had roles to perform.
Eve is a sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
Starting to see a pattern here!
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Originally posted by Ramonski7 As I've posted time and time again (I guess I'll have to until you get it) the trinity system is a theme park mechanic. This is a sandbox mmorpg.
This is so true.
Asheron's Call is a Sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
SWG was a sandbox, has no trinity, still had roles to perform.
Eve is a sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
Starting to see a pattern here!
Which of those do you consider to have good group PvE content?
Originally posted by Kyllien You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
Good luck with that.. The mobs have to be easy peasy if you want players other then TANKS to survive.. Even in GW2 if a champion mob wacks me as a squishy.. I"m hurt.. two wacks and I'm dead.. Even my Necro has a hard time fending off Veteran mobs in GW2.. I won't even begin to tell you how fast a cloth toons dies again a WoW elite... WITHOUT a designated meat shield, you can never truly have dynamic combat.. Without the trinity type of combat, you are cornering yourself into only having mobs that won't kill a squishy in 3 swings...... What fun is that?
We're in complete agreement. If a mob is better fought with trinity arrangement to survive the battle then fine, that's a situation where trinity can form out of necessity and is totally OK. My point was that mobs should not be specially designed to REACT to the trinity arrangement. They should instead be designed to fight intelligently, or in a way that's most advantageous to them.
Guild Wars 1 has non-traditional group builds that were very effective.
There were ToPK group builds that had no group healer or aggro management character. A group of rangers would use expendable animal pets, and their exploitable corpses were then used by necromancers to create non-player meat-shields. And since Necromancer excel at doing ranged dps through cursing as well as creating 'minion bombs', and rangers excel at ranged DoTs and kiting, it all worked.
People are always more effective in a group when the game allows the freedom of non-traditional combinations and the content is intelligently designed to bypass class restrictions through allowing interdependency, and reward the community's ingenuity. The trinity system was only 1 way of rewarding group play. It isn't the only way.
Guildwars 1 did the non trinity right because they had fully custom builds and they use the ai to their advantage, such as having obsidian tank go hold agro, bonders healers and nukers stay in back. They did it right their still had challenge if you f'ed up. Guildwars 2 on the other hand is really just a dps spam its pretty freaking boring
You can argue that the trinity system is better or not better. All i want is difficulty in progression, hence raiding with 20+ people because that is fun to me. So if the non trinity can do this and make it work i will try, but gw2 the example of the non trinity has no such thing and everything is simple. Give me an example of the non trinity while still providing content and difficulty and i will play. Ill play everquest next regardless of trinity or non trinity tho cause i want to build shit :<
Originally posted by Kyllien You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
Good luck with that.. The mobs have to be easy peasy if you want players other then TANKS to survive.. Even in GW2 if a champion mob wacks me as a squishy.. I"m hurt.. two wacks and I'm dead.. Even my Necro has a hard time fending off Veteran mobs in GW2.. I won't even begin to tell you how fast a cloth toons dies again a WoW elite... WITHOUT a designated meat shield, you can never truly have dynamic combat.. Without the trinity type of combat, you are cornering yourself into only having mobs that won't kill a squishy in 3 swings...... What fun is that?
I take on champions in GW2 with my Necro, my staff Ele, and my Mesmer. You're doing something wrong, bud.
If you want to stick with the standard gameplay system of one person sitting there agroing a mob and the group or raid DPS's and heals, then do so. We all have our comfort zones. However, saying EQN's system can't work (and we don't have any gameplay previews or reviews yet from beta) is extremely premature. You don't have to think outside of the box. The rest of us who are going to play EQN will.
Originally posted by Kyllien You know if you want you can still play Trinity style. There is nothing stopping you. But your tank better be able to physically block the mob that really wants to kill the ranger. Since the ranger killed the mob's mom before joining your group. Oh the ranger will help with Snares and Roots but the tank better stay between the ranger and the mob. And since your healer has been healing the mobs in her off time you don't really need to worry about her.
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
Good luck with that.. The mobs have to be easy peasy if you want players other then TANKS to survive.. Even in GW2 if a champion mob wacks me as a squishy.. I"m hurt.. two wacks and I'm dead.. Even my Necro has a hard time fending off Veteran mobs in GW2.. I won't even begin to tell you how fast a cloth toons dies again a WoW elite... WITHOUT a designated meat shield, you can never truly have dynamic combat.. Without the trinity type of combat, you are cornering yourself into only having mobs that won't kill a squishy in 3 swings...... What fun is that?
We're in complete agreement. If a mob is better fought with trinity arrangement to survive the battle then fine, that's a situation where trinity can form out of necessity and is totally OK. My point was that mobs should not be specially designed to REACT to the trinity arrangement. They should instead be designed to fight intelligently, or in a way that's most advantageous to them.
According to the Dev's from the panels, they will. I'm looking forward to a breath of fresh air with its release.
A trinity system creates fear because only together can people survive.
If your tank fails in a trinity system, the group is dead. If your healer fails in a trinity system, the group is dead
An action system where no one tanks, developers increase the armor and survivability on all classes so they can all take hits.
It greatly reduces the amount of fear when something goes wrong.
What you have just described is actually a problem WITH the trinity system, not a benefit. It puts way too much responsibility for the group on just 1 or 2 people, while the rest more or less sit back & pew pew. It also makes getting groups HARDER because you need to find those 1 or 2 rare people that have the gear, are competent enough, play well with others, have enough time to do a run/raid, and are willing to group with you at the current time. Playing one of 2 classes types that are the least popular in these types of games.
- Also, your assumption on action combat is DEAD wrong. Just look at gw2. There are only a couple classes with high armor / mitigation (guardian & warrior), one of which dies very easily if you aren't careful. Then you look at the thief, which dies if he's as much as sneezed at, and requires skilled dodging & evasion to stay alive. But is also very much vital to a groups success, both for damage & utility (safe reses w/ shadow refuge, reflection of projectiles, venoms, party-wide long duration stealth).
Anyone who's done the higher lvl fractals, or had half their party whipe on lupicus, knows that there is still fear there. It's just not all based around the same 1 or 2 classes. So your tank dies? Well, if he was bad to begin with it's still annoying, but not the end of the world. But if your really good tank dies? Well, then you start to panic & debate on trying to waste time reviving him, whipe, or tough it out.
** In short, the main difference between trinity & non-trinity based combat systems; is that in trinity based games your class makes up most of your prestige. Choose a tank? Tada! Magically everyone wants to group with you. Wanna be a healer? Bam! Now everyone's your friend.
In non-trinity games, that doesn't happen. People group with you (or not) based on your own merits. Not based on whether or not you happen to have picked that desired class that no one wants to play.
I understand why that scares people, or how some people wouldn't like it, but it is a step towards more interesting games, that actually start challenging us again. As well as making us think about what we are doing within a game.
The more you talk about trinity and raids, the less I am inclined to believe that you ever actually really raided with a good group. Maybe all you ever raided in was post BC WoW, because it sure seems like that from your shared ideals. The worst part is that most people don't seem to agree with you which would indicate that your logic is flawed....
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Comments
Exactly what I am SICK of in games. I like to play support roles, and I'm sick of not being able to defend myself once my tank is down. Or if I'm playing DPS, my healers gone? well i'm a completely useless bunch of fuck now.
I play WoW, and will continue to play WoW until I get tired of it, but that is just gameplay of the past.
If I'm playing support, and the people i'm supporting are killed, there is just no reason I shouldn't be able to adequately defend my self. It may not be defending my self with DPS, but rather movement, or creating a hole in the ground for you to fall in.
The fear for me is greater, knowing that I'm playing a support class (probably wearing cloth) so I can't take heavy damage.. And my bud that was taking the damage died, so now it's all up to me. And thanks to EQ:N for not having the trinity, because I'll now be a viable last resort. Instead of "healers only man up, we're fucked"
What I'm saying is the trinity is nice.... if you're playing themeparks.
This isn't a themepark, never was going to be, they've clearly stated it is a sandbox, so why are you complaining about the trinity in a sandbox game? It's NEVER existed in sandbox games and it NEVER will.
PVP in Eve is way more structured than you think, and fleet fits are often predetermined and you 'must' use them, at least if you want to take part in the action, so the 'go away or come back with a basilisk/scimitar' etc does happen, small group pvp is even more dependent on teamwork and having the right fits - unless its a gank and the idea then is to go for max dps because your ships are toast either way. And in SWG you had to have a few different types along, although this is pretty much pre-nge, post nge the game was a bit naff... probably for that reason too. The point is, MMO's are games that involve a lot of people, you can go the route GW2 did and have them all doing their own thing regardless, and so little to no community/communication, or you can go the route where there is actual interdependance, whether a game is Themepark or Sandbox is irrelevant in this regard, without interdependance, there is little or no need for community or social interraction, and games without that have little or no longevity.
You are somewhat right.. but nevertheless not completely. The problem is that a lot of people, and in that case you too, do simplify it. To basicly a black/white answer trinity or no trinity at all.
form 14:15 to 14:30
"It's not to say we are walking away from roles. It is certainly not to say we are walking away from responsability. Both personal, strategical and tactical responsability."
So we do have different roles. He further refered that you don't have to wait for one certain character. This has more to do with multiclassing, and a lot of people can before a fight choose different roles.
But the old aggro/taunt mechanism is gone. And one reason for it is the better, reactive AI.
What does this effectively mean? The old trinity system with one main tank holding all aggro from all mobs with one simple taunt attack is gone. And withit that one healer just can focus heal this one tank.
Now fights will be different, and all members have to react with any new situation in combat. And basicly it means that combat is much more like we are used to in Group PvP for a very long time. Maybe not so much, if you just have to deal with one big boss mob.. but certainly when you have to deal with more enemies.
This will require new skills, and new approaches for a defensive tank. And more or less just for the defensive tank. Almost all other roles we are familar with can stay as they are. Maybe you have to watch the combat more actively as a healer, because you can't just heal this one main tank, and maybe you have to heal some other to, from time to time.
As i already said in games like DAoC or even WAR the def tank do have some abilities to protect and to tank without the need of any aggro system... mostly because both of those games heavily focues on pvp, too.. where those system never worked in the first place.
We don't know what specific skills or roles any of those 40 classes will fullfil, we don't know how different tactics will work out. But to assume that it will be anything like GW2 you make a hasty judgement. Because in GW2 the not only removed the aggro mechanism, they removed the Healer class, and Healing overall, they removed any tanking ability, they removed any serious Crowd Control.. with other words GW2 really did away with almost everything we were used to in the past.
And i have to agree to some extent, that it didn't work out they way a lot of people hoped for. More often than not it was pure chaos and more often than not reduced to do more dps. Of course.. even in GW2 it is not that simpilistic.
In conclusion we can't say the trinity is gone, but the trinity have to evolve in EQN.. and now we have to wait until we hear anything in specific about the different classes, about the different available roles, and about specific skills for specific tasks.
These threads fighting over what and whatnot is trinity is silly here is my side ands its not about trinity but more about play style and fulfilling a role in a mmorpg and not single player game.
Say I want to be a healer which I love doing I want to keeps group alive and doing so makes me feel good and enjoy playing a game should be priority to all gamers. If I want to tank and keeps group safe from aggro/mob hate I will feel great if I do so and I achieve my role happily.
If there are no roles so all have healing tanking crowd control and damage dealing abilities but limited you have nothing to look forward to achieve and also no need to communicate with other players so 0 socializing. Everyone that wants this jack of all trades roles but master of none are single player gamers and companies making games like that wants to attract that crowd.
Personally I want to be identified as a role in a role playing game the system in gw2 makes everyone the same you don't have a role.
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My opinion
No I don't believe this game is or will be a sandbox. Developers are going to script what you do and why. Sandbox games that are pve focused are just people farming stuff for their own use, and this will not be that type of game.
You need a trinity for good and entertaining grouping, or it becomes mindless crap like all dynamic events end up being always. In fact the trinity is the foundation, I think that for the best group mechanics you need more than the heals/tank/two or three dps. You need a CC specific class and no CC on other classes, you need a buffing class with no buffs on other classes, and you need a debuff class with the role limited to them.
This adds variety, beyond the "ok you heal you tank and we just spam the dps"
Oh and im so sick of the fact that sandbox became a buzzword to apply to any and tall types of games just to label it that. Yeah Yeah you can call stuff sandboxy, there are things that might work well in a sandbox, but the "rides" don't determine if its sandbox or not...no player housing, growing crops, destruction and regrowth IS NOT SANDBOX...a games progression doesn't make it sandbox, you can have levels in a sandbox and having skill on use as progression doesn't make sandbox..when a developer crafts your motives, your goals, and your content for you its not a damn sandbox...really wish people would get this though their thick skulls already.
And no, smedly doesn't know what the hell a mmo sandbox is, he called PS2 a sandbox and I guess that kind of fits since its not an rpg and theres no real story or motives in the game at all beyond killing people for explosions and points.
Hell I think they even said its not a sandbox and its not a linear themepark its something else, which means a non linear themepark. Which I think would describe what they are really trying to do with the game best.
Guildwars 2 is doing just fine and content for the game is coming out every two weeks. You completely miss the point of what I said. A game that relies on trinity for end game like most themeparks limits the freedom of what players can do in the game, you dependent on groups to get anything done in end game and end game is the only thing for max level players to do unless they like alt leveling or crafting. Sandbox games is about freedom of choice, I can group with others and play like a trinity or I dont have too and still be able to do things in the game. Yes its better to play in groups working together but your not going to be handicap by a missing a certain player, some one else can fill the role by switching classes or you can come up with a new way to deal with what you are doing. There are going to be no scripted instance dungeons in EQnext that you usually need trinity to deal with. Also I can go and find solo pvp in EVE easy enough a lot players do that. Sandboxes are about options not requirements.
Fortunately, there are a lot of people that get this. I see the more progressive EQ fans and the GW1 fans who hate GW2 to be the main demographic base for EQN. I'm looking forward to the meld.
The people that clamored for change, who made all these threads over the years screaming for something to break the mold of the last 8 years, then finally got it and now they are still complaining.. Well, there are 1001 clones out there doing the same thing with the same tired mechanics that they are afraid to leave. They don't get it. Frankly, that's fine as well. Move along, and go back to your comfort zones.
WHat happens when you put a brain cell or two into a Boss`head, and he realise that he not have to keep hitting that dude with thick plates and a billion hp just because he keep calling him a idiot?
If you have a really good AI you could simply simulate pvp combat.
I imagine that PVE will be burst dps mixed up with peels, short duration burst heals and shielding mechanics. Everybody needs to be alert and use the abillities needed in the moment - you cant just stand there and do your rotation, you need to cast a stun if that can save a teammate. Ppl have to heal and bandage low hp party members so they wont become easy pray. Pretty much exactly like pvp combat.
Personally really looking foreward to it.
This is my feeling too. Well said!
Actually, tight enrage timers are a great thing. It means that having strong tanks and healers is no longer "good enough", and makes great DPS a valuable commodity.
I do agree that I would like to see more focus on things like control, and buffing/debuffing. I think the Trinity needs to expand, not go away.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Wow, you really, really need to L2P then :S
^^ This EXACTLY.
Since when have MMOs gotten to the point where it's thought that features need to specifically implemented to support the trinity arrangement?? There is absolutely nothing preventing players from forming a trinity group if they so choose and if they feel it is more effective in battle.
Secondly, the entire FOCUS of this next-gen MMO is to create a self-sufficient WORLD that can live and breathe on it's own. It's about time we let enemies/mobs think on their own, instead of programming them to mindlessly attack the tank while ignoring the other players.
if you want good PvE content (as in challenging) do not play Sandboxes. No sandbox ever has had good PvE content (SWG, UO, AC, Darkfall, Mortal Online etc.), sandbox modes in past RPG games were for role playing, and (sometimes) PvP.
People don't play sandboxes for grouping. It won't matter that this game does not have trinity, because it is basically one big GW2 world event all the time. Everything scales, and everyone can do their own thing and look out for themselves while the zerg whittles it down.
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Good luck with that.. The mobs have to be easy peasy if you want players other then TANKS to survive.. Even in GW2 if a champion mob wacks me as a squishy.. I"m hurt.. two wacks and I'm dead.. Even my Necro has a hard time fending off Veteran mobs in GW2.. I won't even begin to tell you how fast a cloth toons dies again a WoW elite... WITHOUT a designated meat shield, you can never truly have dynamic combat.. Without the trinity type of combat, you are cornering yourself into only having mobs that won't kill a squishy in 3 swings...... What fun is that?
This is so true.
Asheron's Call is a Sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
SWG was a sandbox, has no trinity, still had roles to perform.
Eve is a sandbox, has no trinity, still has roles to perform.
Starting to see a pattern here!
Random Forum Poster: I want an MMO that is different, original and fun.
Me: So you want something like EQN
Them: Nah dude, I want a Holy Trinity, Tab Target combat, Instanced Raiding, and Rigid classes.
Me: Double Facepalm.
Which of those do you consider to have good group PvE content?
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
We're in complete agreement. If a mob is better fought with trinity arrangement to survive the battle then fine, that's a situation where trinity can form out of necessity and is totally OK. My point was that mobs should not be specially designed to REACT to the trinity arrangement. They should instead be designed to fight intelligently, or in a way that's most advantageous to them.
Guildwars 1 did the non trinity right because they had fully custom builds and they use the ai to their advantage, such as having obsidian tank go hold agro, bonders healers and nukers stay in back. They did it right their still had challenge if you f'ed up. Guildwars 2 on the other hand is really just a dps spam its pretty freaking boring
You can argue that the trinity system is better or not better. All i want is difficulty in progression, hence raiding with 20+ people because that is fun to me. So if the non trinity can do this and make it work i will try, but gw2 the example of the non trinity has no such thing and everything is simple. Give me an example of the non trinity while still providing content and difficulty and i will play. Ill play everquest next regardless of trinity or non trinity tho cause i want to build shit :<
I take on champions in GW2 with my Necro, my staff Ele, and my Mesmer. You're doing something wrong, bud.
If you want to stick with the standard gameplay system of one person sitting there agroing a mob and the group or raid DPS's and heals, then do so. We all have our comfort zones. However, saying EQN's system can't work (and we don't have any gameplay previews or reviews yet from beta) is extremely premature. You don't have to think outside of the box. The rest of us who are going to play EQN will.
According to the Dev's from the panels, they will. I'm looking forward to a breath of fresh air with its release.
The more you talk about trinity and raids, the less I am inclined to believe that you ever actually really raided with a good group. Maybe all you ever raided in was post BC WoW, because it sure seems like that from your shared ideals. The worst part is that most people don't seem to agree with you which would indicate that your logic is flawed....
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?