I've played enough healers in these games to know that getting stuck as nothing but a healbot is boring as all hell. It's why I never played a Cleric to any real degree except in WAR, since the Warrior Priest was expected to get into the middle of things and fight. In the past, when a tank would tell me to just stand back and spam heal him over and over and over rather than have any more of an active role in an encounter, I got bored very quickly. What's the point of even being in the group if the only contribution you're going to be asked for is one specific thing?
If EQN can design a system where a player isn't forced into a singular role, I'm all for it. People should be able to play in whatever style suits them best in the context of what they're doing at the time. Being forced into a strict role is boring.
I get that you don't like healing. But others do. They like being depended on for this. You do realize what is left when you remove these roles? Nothing but chaos. No strategy, very little ability to play as a team, etc.
And again, those who like to heal will still be able to heal if they wish. Those who like to play the part of the defender can still be defensive. So while you think the roles are gone, you are mistaken.
Actually you are mistaken. Those that like to heal may not have any direct heal abilities as each person will be responsible for themselves. This means someone who takes more heal abilities is a detriment to the group as they can't put out as much DPS. Defensive players - The same.
To accomplish the toughest content you will need everyone to be the best solo build..the same build.
This would beg the simple question: Why did you play a healer? If you didn't want to heal what was the point? You can't complain about your status in life if you chose it freely. Nobody said you couldn't roll a new toon and play a class you wanted to play. No matter what EQN might be trying to hypnotize you with, if you're in a group, and you're fighting some heavy mobs, and you're the only one that brought heals with, guess what..... you're gonna be stuck healing.
I said I didn't like playing a Cleric, since they end up as nothing but a healbot in these games.
I didn't mind healing. I hated the fact that a healing class -- Druid, Shaman, etc. -- was automatically plugged into the healbot role by some tanks and players. To me, those classes have more to offer than just healing, but since so many people got stuck into the Trinity gameplay, healing classes weren't allowed to show what else they could offer. It was just all spam heals all the time. Very boring.
Not sure what you were playing, but in my groups the druid was on the front lines doing dps AND healing, hell, even my warlock was played in melee range AND had the hardest nuke depending if me or the wizzy got the better luck of the rolls lol. Roles are needed one way or another, but it's up to you how you play them. If you think you wanna be up in the front lines and you keep wiping which means you're unable to do any healing, which causes everyone else to wipe, then roll a new class and stop healing because your group is going to drop you and grab someone else that just stands in the back spam healing because it works more in their favor.
There are however plenty of healer/dps/support classes that learn mob mechanics and are just as effective as anyone in doing pretty much anything they want in battle PLUS keeping up with the role they've taken. That's on you, not the trinity, not the game mechanics, not the rest of the group. If you suck at what you want to do, then it's up to you to change.
just because it works one way in GW2 doesnt mean it's going to work the same way in EQN.
a notion that people seem to forget.
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Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I get that you don't like healing. But others do. They like being depended on for this. You do realize what is left when you remove these roles? Nothing but chaos. No strategy, very little ability to play as a team, etc.
Way to completely miss the point of what I was saying. I don't mind healing CLASSES. I mind getting stuck in the predetermined healbot ROLE. There's a difference.
I like the idea of EQN's more open system without predetermined roles. Anything that gets away from strict Trinity gameplay is a good thing, IMO. Allowing players to switch their abilities and their class on the fly to fit whatever they're doing at the time is appealing. Sticking people into the usual Tank/Heabot/DPS roles is boring.
Actually, it's not switching on the fly. Once you're in combat, you're stuck with what you had selected. If you gimped yourself, then you're a gimp until the mob dies, or you do, and teams that play together often have ways of keeping track of who pulls their weight.
I've played enough healers in these games to know that getting stuck as nothing but a healbot is boring as all hell. It's why I never played a Cleric to any real degree except in WAR, since the Warrior Priest was expected to get into the middle of things and fight. In the past, when a tank would tell me to just stand back and spam heal him over and over and over rather than have any more of an active role in an encounter, I got bored very quickly. What's the point of even being in the group if the only contribution you're going to be asked for is one specific thing?
If EQN can design a system where a player isn't forced into a singular role, I'm all for it. People should be able to play in whatever style suits them best in the context of what they're doing at the time. Being forced into a strict role is boring.
I get that you don't like healing. But others do. They like being depended on for this. You do realize what is left when you remove these roles? Nothing but chaos. No strategy, very little ability to play as a team, etc.
And again, those who like to heal will still be able to heal if they wish. Those who like to play the part of the defender can still be defensive. So while you think the roles are gone, you are mistaken.
Actually you are mistaken. Those that like to heal may not have any direct heal abilities as each person will be responsible for themselves. This means someone who takes more heal abilities is a detriment to the group as they can't put out as much DPS. Defensive players - The same.
To accomplish the toughest content you will need everyone to be the best solo build..the same build.
Where was this stated?
Because in the panel the opposite was said by the devs.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
just because it works one way in GW2 doesnt mean it's going to work the same way in EQN.
a notion that people seem to forget.
Or choose to ignore.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Good thing SOE said they'll still have roles in EQN.
Do I want roles? Yes! Do I want the Trinity? Hell no!
When David clears up all this GW2 no roles crap I think you may walk out a little upset when you find out the trinity is alive and well. Just not the only option much like ESO does it. You can tank and heal just fine but if thats the only tactic you use the mobs will learn how to deal with you. This trinity hybrid looks awesome to me and I think more MMOs will be using it. Any set of tools work if you know how to play your char and play as a team. Its not about removing tools sets like tanking/healing. Its about adding more options.
just because it works one way in GW2 doesnt mean it's going to work the same way in EQN.
a notion that people seem to forget.
That's just it -- we don't know how it's going to work at all in EQN. We've seen a tech demo, had a reveal presentation and some panels from SOE Live. We know what the devs are saying now, but nothing is set in stone.
I've played enough healers in these games to know that getting stuck as nothing but a healbot is boring as all hell. It's why I never played a Cleric to any real degree except in WAR, since the Warrior Priest was expected to get into the middle of things and fight. In the past, when a tank would tell me to just stand back and spam heal him over and over and over rather than have any more of an active role in an encounter, I got bored very quickly. What's the point of even being in the group if the only contribution you're going to be asked for is one specific thing?
If EQN can design a system where a player isn't forced into a singular role, I'm all for it. People should be able to play in whatever style suits them best in the context of what they're doing at the time. Being forced into a strict role is boring.
I get that you don't like healing. But others do. They like being depended on for this. You do realize what is left when you remove these roles? Nothing but chaos. No strategy, very little ability to play as a team, etc.
And again, those who like to heal will still be able to heal if they wish. Those who like to play the part of the defender can still be defensive. So while you think the roles are gone, you are mistaken.
Actually you are mistaken. Those that like to heal may not have any direct heal abilities as each person will be responsible for themselves. This means someone who takes more heal abilities is a detriment to the group as they can't put out as much DPS. Defensive players - The same.
To accomplish the toughest content you will need everyone to be the best solo build..the same build.
Where was this stated?
Because in the panel the opposite was said by the devs.
No. They said that players who wanted to take more defensive abilities would be able to, but gone were the need for roles. Look to other games who have attempted this to see what the resulting group play is like.
Actually, it's not switching on the fly. Once you're in combat, you're stuck with what you had selected. If you gimped yourself, then you're a gimp until the mob dies, or you do, and teams that play together often have ways of keeping track of who pulls their weight.
I'm aware.
What I mean by switching on the fly is that I'm not going to be stuck in a single class for the entire time I'm in the game. I can switch based on what I'm doing at the time and who I'm doing it with.
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
In fact, taking anything less than exactly the primary dps build makes you weaker. Incentive to all (every player) be the "build of the month" and leave behind anyone who wants to play a different way.
Godmode for all!
Godmode... I tend to think of it as Zerg Mentality. If group size is 5, then 5 of the top DPS classes (or 5 of the same) can complete all group content. Just Zerg it with DPS - no tactics needed.
Until you have a boss that uses a skill that the group needs to interrupt.
Then control comes into play.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
Godmode for all!
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
Good thing SOE said they'll still have roles in EQN.
Do I want roles? Yes! Do I want the Trinity? Hell no!
When David clears up all this GW2 no roles crap I think you may walk out a little upset when you find out the trinity is alive and well. Just not the only option much like ESO does it. You can tank and heal just fine but if thats the only tactic you use the mobs will learn how to deal with you. This trinity hybrid looks awesome to me and I think more MMOs will be using it. Any set of tools work if you know how to play your char and play as a team. Its not about removing tools sets like tanking/healing. Its about adding more options.
Then he need to clear it up. In fact, they should have been clear about it from the beginning. I actually think they were until they began getting the clearly negative reaction and now they are back peddling. Did you hear Jeff Butler during the Q&A panel. It was pretty clear.
I've played enough healers in these games to know that getting stuck as nothing but a healbot is boring as all hell. It's why I never played a Cleric to any real degree except in WAR, since the Warrior Priest was expected to get into the middle of things and fight. In the past, when a tank would tell me to just stand back and spam heal him over and over and over rather than have any more of an active role in an encounter, I got bored very quickly. What's the point of even being in the group if the only contribution you're going to be asked for is one specific thing?
If EQN can design a system where a player isn't forced into a singular role, I'm all for it. People should be able to play in whatever style suits them best in the context of what they're doing at the time. Being forced into a strict role is boring.
I get that you don't like healing. But others do. They like being depended on for this. You do realize what is left when you remove these roles? Nothing but chaos. No strategy, very little ability to play as a team, etc.
And again, those who like to heal will still be able to heal if they wish. Those who like to play the part of the defender can still be defensive. So while you think the roles are gone, you are mistaken.
Actually you are mistaken. Those that like to heal may not have any direct heal abilities as each person will be responsible for themselves. This means someone who takes more heal abilities is a detriment to the group as they can't put out as much DPS. Defensive players - The same.
To accomplish the toughest content you will need everyone to be the best solo build..the same build.
Where was this stated?
Because in the panel the opposite was said by the devs.
No. They said that players who wanted to take more defensive abilities would be able to, but gone were the need for roles. Look to other games who have attempted this to see what the resulting group play is like.
Jeff Butler stated that someone who likes healing can still be a healer. Someone who likes to be defensive can still be defensive. The roles are still there, but not set in as the "Need it or fail" system of the trinity.
And games I have played with a very loose role system worked well for group play. Never needed a specific tank/healer in AO if you knew how to play. Didn't need a dedicated anything in UO either.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
Godmode for all!
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
I understand what you're saying now, but it moves the argument back to zergfest. If you, by yourself, can sufficiently maintain things, then just get a whole group of the same build and roll through everything. DPS might be slow, but it's steady, and if this new (not) AI works as stated, then the mob will have to bounce around between everyone, giving you all a break to heal back up. That's just how I'm seeing this though, it may be different, I'm sure everyone hopes it'll be different, but there's still the possibility that this is how it might end up.
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
I think it is because for a lot of people it takes too much effort to figure out and build the type of character that fits a role than it does to click a button that gives you this role at creation. To most of them its the "Why plot and plan to make the role when I can just pick it?" mentality. Other people are just used to the 'pick a role and stay that role' soft of game play and cant fathom playing a game without it.
In UO we didn't have dedicated anything. We still ran dungeons and had a blast.
In AO, while there were classes that were meant for specific roles, you didn't really need them and no one had an issue doing anything. We didn't need the Atrox Enforcer or the Doctor to run instances or raids. I tanked my fair share of Mercs on my Fixer before getting GAmkIV, using a combination of my Hots and an NT pitty heal now and then to stay alive.
Sadly people just want to log in and 'win'. And the fastest path to winning is not messing with finding the perfect balance.
dude. WoW's hunter back in 2007 when using survivalist skill tree at lvl 60 was beastly. I was playing BG and low-and-behold, I ran out of ammunition for my rifle and so I switched to close combat for the duration of the round. I had 2 rare 1h axes and mopped the field up with wingclip and counterattack. By the end of the round I topped rogues on DPS and killed enemies 6 levels higher than me. It was epic, but soooo stressful! Had to keep moving and changing LOS. But yeah, I picked a hunter because I loved my pet. Had my Banglagesh white tiger from SV for 4 years and loved him. But I found that I didn't have to just stand in the background and play the role as it was "meant" to be played. It was actually a lot more fun playing my hunter in close to mid range combat. Wing-clip would immobilize my enemies, and I had maximized my dodge and parry capabilities to the point where I was almost dodging 45-60% of attacks, and parrying 35% which would then give me another immob. It was awesome. sadly blizzard changed the skills and so that came to an end. but the moral of the story is, you don't have to be a cookie cutter player like you were saying. just gotta be smart. people need to stop sucking their thumbs and grow up in their ability to adapt to situations and roles. lol. funny how we get into games so much.
Trinity or not, it sure does feel better with more defined roles for each group member.
For example, while each class can heal, nonhealer's healing is more of a clutch/self heal, while true healers are the real deal. This gives playing healers an incentive, while still allowing them to dps, if multiclassing works well in EQN.
Sure, there will still be players wanting to be one of the FOTM crawling around the battlefield with 30 million of other FOTMs.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
Godmode for all!
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
I understand what you're saying now, but it moves the argument back to zergfest. If you, by yourself, can sufficiently maintain things, then just get a whole group of the same build and roll through everything. DPS might be slow, but it's steady, and if this new (not) AI works as stated, then the mob will have to bounce around between everyone, giving you all a break to heal back up. That's just how I'm seeing this though, it may be different, I'm sure everyone hopes it'll be different, but there's still the possibility that this is how it might end up.
if everyone were to want to play that style, that's totally fine. Heck, in all the games that have supported the trinity and 3 specific roles, everyone could have chosen to all be redemption paladins and faceroll everything. In every situation, everyone COULD theoretically be the same in class, gear, and role. But does everyone play the same way? nope. Even in GW2 not everyone would want to play the same style as I do. No one in my entire guild has the same play style. We build up our classes to fill a specific role, regardless of trinity or not. Every choice a person makes with his or her character will define them as a role, even as a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. That is entirely plausible. But not helpful, and could become boring. People will just need to experiment for themselves. What I hope to do is a tank type class that has interrupts and the ability to mitigate damage and take some stress away from the guy who wants to play the dedicated healer. But I'd also like to make a character that is a hunter(ranger) multiclassed with a wizard and can port around and shoot goblin's heads off.
This type of system would be fine if it were true Multi-Classing, ie 8 abilities 4 you could swap based on any weapon you want to equip, and have in combat weapon swapping so if your great sword does not cut it for a mobs fight style, you have the ability to survive the fight by changing weapons and adapting to the encounter. (though 10 or 12 abilities would be the best fo me)
4 abilities you could actually pick from all the classes you have unlocked.
But I really do not see the advantage of taking away Tanks and Healers, in a true Multi-Class system if you need a healer someone would just spec for a healer, or maybe three players would spec one heal ability each.
Same goes for tanking... I mean you still would not have to wait for a tank, so there is no advantage to not having encounters that require healing and tanking.
Tanking and Healing bring depth to encounters..... and with a (so called) Smart AI, and great encounter design, you could do so much cool stuff.....
Do all encounters need to have designated healers and tanks .... No
In a true Multi- Class system - the player decides how he wants to play.. This EQNext (or EQ watered down, as I like to call it) does not really give the player the chose of playing the way he wants, because from the very start the have removed two key play styles..
I hated hearing HULK as the warrior model... an indestructible green brainless beast, with endless strength, that can never die.... yup and that's what the game will be like.
How about, Aragon.. or Gimli, or general Maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator) fruck the HULK hes just silly weenie boy stuff..Oh I can't die, look at me.....Smash, the keys on your keyboard with your face and still win.
The reason for these changes for EQ Next were to prevent situations where players were unable to play or do content without a certain class. They were obviously straw dummy arguments because A) vertical progression, class switching and C) multiclassing all create ways for players to always be able to play together and do anything in any situation. Theres simply no reason to remove "required roles" from a game where you can not only switch classes, but multiclass.
I would rather see hybrids, classes that can tank or dps depending on their setup, and healer should be able to switch to support buffer depending on their setup. We all need roles and setting up each persons role prior to entering a conflict would be win win.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I like roles, but I don't need one of those roles to be a healer, tank or CC. I like that setup best, and I think it promotes group interdependence. If they replace those roles with something other than damage I'm very open to that. I just haven't seen any game without some form of the trinity that does that.
GW2 doesn't have active roles. There's no difference between a Paladin and any other class of DPS. You get aggro you run run run, someone else gets aggro you damage damage damage. If you have multiple mobs you have people run run run some around while you /assist and kill the target. That's too simple for my tastes. It's just a hectic mess and not tactical.
I think it's still possible that EQN does have something. I can imagine several forms of CC that might accomplish what I want without healing, but since I haven't seen anything like it in games I can't say if it'll work. I can't see wanting to do away with something that works well.
Originally posted by NomadMorlock Personally I support having many different roles but the ability to switch skills to fill multiple roles. Without roles, everyone is DPS and any encounter can be completed by a large number of cookie cutter characters who are all the same.
Actually I don't think that is true. For the clearest counter argument, try Defiance for a moment (there is a trial). Whatever weapon you pick defines what you can do, mix that up with the mods on the weapon that can completely turn the weapon aroun, the abiltiies you have activated on top from your Ego map (char advancement tree) individually and ... there is no cookie cutter. People make templates they like for their kind of gameplay, but there is a lot of variety of what comes out of it in the end. I'd go so far to claim that I see much LESS cookie cutter characters in Defiance than I see in EQ2 for example.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
Godmode for all!
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
I understand what you're saying now, but it moves the argument back to zergfest. If you, by yourself, can sufficiently maintain things, then just get a whole group of the same build and roll through everything. DPS might be slow, but it's steady, and if this new (not) AI works as stated, then the mob will have to bounce around between everyone, giving you all a break to heal back up. That's just how I'm seeing this though, it may be different, I'm sure everyone hopes it'll be different, but there's still the possibility that this is how it might end up.
Try to watch it from the other side: you are so used to the AI programmed a certain way (that ridiculous taunting works and of course it goes for the heavily armored guy, because that makes so much SENSE) that you believe not having these roles is automatically without tactics and "zergfest".
That is simply not true. An intelligent AI makes these roles pretty much obsolete because the healer would always be the first to die, the tank never get even in reach of a mob and the damage dealer constantly rooted and stunned. If you are in such a situation SO limited to your roles ... you are dead.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
aren't classes and abilities simply the foundations for combat roles and you just need to form your character into it? You can essentially create a class that has tanking abilities and can maintain most of the defensive needs of the group, and then also a character set around healing your party members, and then lastly a role of dps? They say that there aren't classes that are singularly for a specific purpose over another. With multi-classing, I can do what I want to in that I stand infront of my mates and take the brunt of the damage and also that my attacks and abilities simultaneously heal me and near by allies, which increases my survivability and reduces the stress of the main source of healing. I don't see what the issue is.
If someone knows what this reduces us to, please elaborate. But otherwise, I don't see what the fuss is. As long as someone isn't trying to do everything at once, which in of itself is retarded, aren't there roles to play just by playing well?
You've essentially just made it clear to everyone that they'll never need to group. You can tank, dps, and heal yourself all in one. Way to give your vote for single player games.
Godmode for all!
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
I understand what you're saying now, but it moves the argument back to zergfest. If you, by yourself, can sufficiently maintain things, then just get a whole group of the same build and roll through everything. DPS might be slow, but it's steady, and if this new (not) AI works as stated, then the mob will have to bounce around between everyone, giving you all a break to heal back up. That's just how I'm seeing this though, it may be different, I'm sure everyone hopes it'll be different, but there's still the possibility that this is how it might end up.
Try to watch it from the other side: you are so used to the AI programmed a certain way (that ridiculous taunting works and of course it goes for the heavily armored guy, because that makes so much SENSE) that you believe not having these roles is automatically without tactics and "zergfest".
That is simply not true. An intelligent AI makes these roles pretty much obsolete because the healer would always be the first to die, the tank never get even in reach of a mob and the damage dealer constantly rooted and stunned. If you are in such a situation SO limited to your roles ... you are dead.
I just want to make a small point here.... About TAUNTS
The concept of TAUNTING is not the fact that so and so calls your mother a hairy fat blob of lard rolls with her own gravitational pull... causing you to run over and smack him...
NO NO.. Taunting is a game mechanic developed to replace PHYSICS in games.. you see for years games have tried to prefect PHYSICS and have fallen way short.
In real life.. If CONAN the 300 pound linebacker who can run a 4 40 is standing between you and the 100 pound weakling in the back of the room tossing eggs at your face... and you try to run through CONAN he will choke the living shiz out of you. If you try and run around CONAN, he will choke the living SHIZ out of you. If you try to back up and toss eggs of your own CONAN will follow you and corner you and choke the living SHIZ out of you. SO you have to keep running from CONAN while tossing your eggs or stand and fight CONAN. If you turn your back to CONAN he does not disappear, NO he chokes the living SHIZ out of you.
Just like chess and football... you have to deal with the line before yo can get to the quarterback.
In games player characters do not have real Physics, you can just run through them, which in real life does not happen, if you run passed a guy like CONAN who is trained with a sword.. he chops off your head (attack of opportunity)
So TAUNTING was developed to replace PHYSICS as a mechanism to demonstrate the fact the players have mass and can not be walk through or around so easily.
Try it some time.. Give your friend a garbage can lid and a tire iron and have him stand in a doorway.. and you try and get by him without stopping to defend yourself.. let me know how it turned our when you get back from the hospital...
Comments
Actually you are mistaken. Those that like to heal may not have any direct heal abilities as each person will be responsible for themselves. This means someone who takes more heal abilities is a detriment to the group as they can't put out as much DPS. Defensive players - The same.
To accomplish the toughest content you will need everyone to be the best solo build..the same build.
Not sure what you were playing, but in my groups the druid was on the front lines doing dps AND healing, hell, even my warlock was played in melee range AND had the hardest nuke depending if me or the wizzy got the better luck of the rolls lol. Roles are needed one way or another, but it's up to you how you play them. If you think you wanna be up in the front lines and you keep wiping which means you're unable to do any healing, which causes everyone else to wipe, then roll a new class and stop healing because your group is going to drop you and grab someone else that just stands in the back spam healing because it works more in their favor.
There are however plenty of healer/dps/support classes that learn mob mechanics and are just as effective as anyone in doing pretty much anything they want in battle PLUS keeping up with the role they've taken. That's on you, not the trinity, not the game mechanics, not the rest of the group. If you suck at what you want to do, then it's up to you to change.
just because it works one way in GW2 doesnt mean it's going to work the same way in EQN.
a notion that people seem to forget.
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Actually, it's not switching on the fly. Once you're in combat, you're stuck with what you had selected. If you gimped yourself, then you're a gimp until the mob dies, or you do, and teams that play together often have ways of keeping track of who pulls their weight.
Where was this stated?
Because in the panel the opposite was said by the devs.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Or choose to ignore.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
When David clears up all this GW2 no roles crap I think you may walk out a little upset when you find out the trinity is alive and well. Just not the only option much like ESO does it. You can tank and heal just fine but if thats the only tactic you use the mobs will learn how to deal with you. This trinity hybrid looks awesome to me and I think more MMOs will be using it. Any set of tools work if you know how to play your char and play as a team. Its not about removing tools sets like tanking/healing. Its about adding more options.
That's just it -- we don't know how it's going to work at all in EQN. We've seen a tech demo, had a reveal presentation and some panels from SOE Live. We know what the devs are saying now, but nothing is set in stone.
No. They said that players who wanted to take more defensive abilities would be able to, but gone were the need for roles. Look to other games who have attempted this to see what the resulting group play is like.
I'm aware.
What I mean by switching on the fly is that I'm not going to be stuck in a single class for the entire time I'm in the game. I can switch based on what I'm doing at the time and who I'm doing it with.
Until you have a boss that uses a skill that the group needs to interrupt.
Then control comes into play.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I guess I didn't articulate enough of what I meant. I don't DPS. At all. Nor do I heal to the extent of making a primary healer negligible. I play GW2 as a guardian and pretty much just have touchness and healing power. I don't do much damage at all. I use a hammer and mace/shield combo and am more focused on damage mitigation from my allies, with little damage output, and about mid healing ability. If the groups I'm in for dungeons and such does not have a primary healer, then the group normally wipes, with me last, since I can maintain my health sufficiently. Is that wrong?
So no, not god-mode at all. it's actually a viable playstyle for a WoW paladin back in the day. Or what, you want roles that are ONLY meant to be meatbags, or ONLY backstabbing/arrow to the knee tearjerkers, and lastly ONLY binding up the meatbag?
Then he need to clear it up. In fact, they should have been clear about it from the beginning. I actually think they were until they began getting the clearly negative reaction and now they are back peddling. Did you hear Jeff Butler during the Q&A panel. It was pretty clear.
Jeff Butler stated that someone who likes healing can still be a healer. Someone who likes to be defensive can still be defensive. The roles are still there, but not set in as the "Need it or fail" system of the trinity.
And games I have played with a very loose role system worked well for group play. Never needed a specific tank/healer in AO if you knew how to play. Didn't need a dedicated anything in UO either.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I understand what you're saying now, but it moves the argument back to zergfest. If you, by yourself, can sufficiently maintain things, then just get a whole group of the same build and roll through everything. DPS might be slow, but it's steady, and if this new (not) AI works as stated, then the mob will have to bounce around between everyone, giving you all a break to heal back up. That's just how I'm seeing this though, it may be different, I'm sure everyone hopes it'll be different, but there's still the possibility that this is how it might end up.
dude. WoW's hunter back in 2007 when using survivalist skill tree at lvl 60 was beastly. I was playing BG and low-and-behold, I ran out of ammunition for my rifle and so I switched to close combat for the duration of the round. I had 2 rare 1h axes and mopped the field up with wingclip and counterattack. By the end of the round I topped rogues on DPS and killed enemies 6 levels higher than me. It was epic, but soooo stressful! Had to keep moving and changing LOS. But yeah, I picked a hunter because I loved my pet. Had my Banglagesh white tiger from SV for 4 years and loved him. But I found that I didn't have to just stand in the background and play the role as it was "meant" to be played. It was actually a lot more fun playing my hunter in close to mid range combat. Wing-clip would immobilize my enemies, and I had maximized my dodge and parry capabilities to the point where I was almost dodging 45-60% of attacks, and parrying 35% which would then give me another immob. It was awesome. sadly blizzard changed the skills and so that came to an end. but the moral of the story is, you don't have to be a cookie cutter player like you were saying. just gotta be smart. people need to stop sucking their thumbs and grow up in their ability to adapt to situations and roles. lol. funny how we get into games so much.
Trinity or not, it sure does feel better with more defined roles for each group member.
For example, while each class can heal, nonhealer's healing is more of a clutch/self heal, while true healers are the real deal. This gives playing healers an incentive, while still allowing them to dps, if multiclassing works well in EQN.
Sure, there will still be players wanting to be one of the FOTM crawling around the battlefield with 30 million of other FOTMs.The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
if everyone were to want to play that style, that's totally fine. Heck, in all the games that have supported the trinity and 3 specific roles, everyone could have chosen to all be redemption paladins and faceroll everything. In every situation, everyone COULD theoretically be the same in class, gear, and role. But does everyone play the same way? nope. Even in GW2 not everyone would want to play the same style as I do. No one in my entire guild has the same play style. We build up our classes to fill a specific role, regardless of trinity or not. Every choice a person makes with his or her character will define them as a role, even as a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. That is entirely plausible. But not helpful, and could become boring. People will just need to experiment for themselves. What I hope to do is a tank type class that has interrupts and the ability to mitigate damage and take some stress away from the guy who wants to play the dedicated healer. But I'd also like to make a character that is a hunter(ranger) multiclassed with a wizard and can port around and shoot goblin's heads off.
Let's not constrict ourselves.
This type of system would be fine if it were true Multi-Classing, ie 8 abilities 4 you could swap based on any weapon you want to equip, and have in combat weapon swapping so if your great sword does not cut it for a mobs fight style, you have the ability to survive the fight by changing weapons and adapting to the encounter. (though 10 or 12 abilities would be the best fo me)
4 abilities you could actually pick from all the classes you have unlocked.
But I really do not see the advantage of taking away Tanks and Healers, in a true Multi-Class system if you need a healer someone would just spec for a healer, or maybe three players would spec one heal ability each.
Same goes for tanking... I mean you still would not have to wait for a tank, so there is no advantage to not having encounters that require healing and tanking.
Tanking and Healing bring depth to encounters..... and with a (so called) Smart AI, and great encounter design, you could do so much cool stuff.....
Do all encounters need to have designated healers and tanks .... No
In a true Multi- Class system - the player decides how he wants to play.. This EQNext (or EQ watered down, as I like to call it) does not really give the player the chose of playing the way he wants, because from the very start the have removed two key play styles..
I hated hearing HULK as the warrior model... an indestructible green brainless beast, with endless strength, that can never die.... yup and that's what the game will be like.
How about, Aragon.. or Gimli, or general Maximus Decimus Meridius (Gladiator) fruck the HULK hes just silly weenie boy stuff..Oh I can't die, look at me.....Smash, the keys on your keyboard with your face and still win.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
I like roles, but I don't need one of those roles to be a healer, tank or CC. I like that setup best, and I think it promotes group interdependence. If they replace those roles with something other than damage I'm very open to that. I just haven't seen any game without some form of the trinity that does that.
GW2 doesn't have active roles. There's no difference between a Paladin and any other class of DPS. You get aggro you run run run, someone else gets aggro you damage damage damage. If you have multiple mobs you have people run run run some around while you /assist and kill the target. That's too simple for my tastes. It's just a hectic mess and not tactical.
I think it's still possible that EQN does have something. I can imagine several forms of CC that might accomplish what I want without healing, but since I haven't seen anything like it in games I can't say if it'll work. I can't see wanting to do away with something that works well.
Asdar
Actually I don't think that is true. For the clearest counter argument, try Defiance for a moment (there is a trial). Whatever weapon you pick defines what you can do, mix that up with the mods on the weapon that can completely turn the weapon aroun, the abiltiies you have activated on top from your Ego map (char advancement tree) individually and ... there is no cookie cutter. People make templates they like for their kind of gameplay, but there is a lot of variety of what comes out of it in the end. I'd go so far to claim that I see much LESS cookie cutter characters in Defiance than I see in EQ2 for example.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Try to watch it from the other side: you are so used to the AI programmed a certain way (that ridiculous taunting works and of course it goes for the heavily armored guy, because that makes so much SENSE) that you believe not having these roles is automatically without tactics and "zergfest".
That is simply not true.
An intelligent AI makes these roles pretty much obsolete because the healer would always be the first to die, the tank never get even in reach of a mob and the damage dealer constantly rooted and stunned. If you are in such a situation SO limited to your roles ... you are dead.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
I just want to make a small point here.... About TAUNTS
The concept of TAUNTING is not the fact that so and so calls your mother a hairy fat blob of lard rolls with her own gravitational pull... causing you to run over and smack him...
NO NO.. Taunting is a game mechanic developed to replace PHYSICS in games.. you see for years games have tried to prefect PHYSICS and have fallen way short.
In real life.. If CONAN the 300 pound linebacker who can run a 4 40 is standing between you and the 100 pound weakling in the back of the room tossing eggs at your face... and you try to run through CONAN he will choke the living shiz out of you. If you try and run around CONAN, he will choke the living SHIZ out of you. If you try to back up and toss eggs of your own CONAN will follow you and corner you and choke the living SHIZ out of you. SO you have to keep running from CONAN while tossing your eggs or stand and fight CONAN. If you turn your back to CONAN he does not disappear, NO he chokes the living SHIZ out of you.
Just like chess and football... you have to deal with the line before yo can get to the quarterback.
In games player characters do not have real Physics, you can just run through them, which in real life does not happen, if you run passed a guy like CONAN who is trained with a sword.. he chops off your head (attack of opportunity)
So TAUNTING was developed to replace PHYSICS as a mechanism to demonstrate the fact the players have mass and can not be walk through or around so easily.
Try it some time.. Give your friend a garbage can lid and a tire iron and have him stand in a doorway.. and you try and get by him without stopping to defend yourself.. let me know how it turned our when you get back from the hospital...