"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
I'm not entirely certain that I agree with Green's assessment here. The trinity came about because of the character design, not the AI. Classes distributed abilities (take damage, heal damage, give damage) in such a way to avoid the tank-mage syndrome of earlier systems. A single character could not do all three of these operations well.
AI doesn't enter into the equation at all. Any game system were these three fundamental abilities are distributed such that no one character is self-sufficient, that game will have a trinity of some nature, regardless of the cleverness of the computer controlled opponent. Even against human opponents, the trinity is dependent on the game system.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Originally posted by zymurgeist Developers didn't create the trinity, players did. Players will always gravitate to the most effective strategies and developers rarely know what those will be. It was the result of emergent behavior not planning. If all characters are interchangeable then the only strategy left is bring more people until you reach an artificial limit.
Although this entirely based on many core design choices of the game. AI, aggro management, combat mechanics, etc all play a role into what would become the meta. The reason traditional MMO's gravitated toward holy-trinity grouping is because that is how they were designed.
SOE does not want all players to be interchangeable. They stated numerous times throughout the panels at SOE live that they want EQN to have clear roles for the players - just not strict holy-trinity roles.
As long as a new equally or better dynamic is introduced, I will be nothing but happy, however SoE can only blame themselves for all the rage and worry that it will be like GW2, they mentioned nothing about new dynamics to replace the trinity at SoE live, big mistake in my opinion.
But like I said, if they can add new dynamics I will be overjoyed, I just don't want another boring dps race like gw2, Never been as bored in groups as I was in gw2.
Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
Of course it's PR, they're essentially saying wait to pass judgement, is that so hard to do?
The same goes for all the folks saying their AI is more advanced than anything we have seen without having ever seen it...
All of them ? how many have actually said that? SOE, and Story Bricks are touting that yes, people may be repeating it, that doesn't mean they are passing a judgement on it, there is a difference.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
Way to contradict yourself....
We have seen the proof of storybricks AI in NPC interaction. So in that, its miles above most MMOs including GW2. As for combat UI, that we need to wait and see how well thats done or what they even promise.
People arguing against instead of considering what SoE is doing for Entex show their inability to consider new systems. It is a human trait really, which separates the innovators from the rest.
I can't express the frustration I have when people refuse to imagine possibilities. You're right its does separate the innovators from the rest and maybe thats why there are much fewer innovators as a result.
But back on topic. This is great news and it makes sense that the current trinity system emerged out of the rudimentary AI available. It had to be some day the AI in games/mmos would progress beyond the current paradigm, I mean graphics have progressed but some how mob AI has remained stagnant for 10 plus years. It long over due.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
I'm not entirely certain that I agree with Green's assessment here. The trinity came about because of the character design, not the AI. Classes distributed abilities (take damage, heal damage, give damage) in such a way to avoid the tank-mage syndrome of earlier systems. A single character could not do all three of these operations well.
AI doesn't enter into the equation at all. Any game system were these three fundamental abilities are distributed such that no one character is self-sufficient, that game will have a trinity of some nature, regardless of the cleverness of the computer controlled opponent. Even against human opponents, the trinity is dependent on the game system.
But at least having better, unpredictable AI would make trinity or role combat more fun.
Originally posted by Shadowguy64 As long as it isn't zergy, then I'll be very pleased. That's all I ask. No zerg.
The only games that can guaruntee no zerging are heavily instanced / non-MMOs.
People love to band together, to group up / team up to achieve a common goal. It's human nature. If it bothers you so much, you may want to stay away from social games. It's not like zergy, keyboard-mashing players force you to play the same way.
Guild Wars 2 didn't have near the AI fidelity that EQN will have. Let's wait until we can actually see the system in context before making huge assumptions.
Way to contradict yourself....
Contradicting what? I clearly stated that we have no idea how AI and roles will play out in EQN in context of combat. So people should wait and see without making wide assumptions.
My first statement is based on exactly what SOE has told us about EQN.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
In theory I will agree with it.
But what about showing some footage of what they are talking about?
Because from what we saw so far, mobs were as reactive as a Python after eating a whole gazelle................
Words, words, words..................
Until I see an example of this "awesome" NPC AI, I am entitled to be skeptic
Even after some folks get their hands on it on demo floors we can't know for sure. Only after launch will we know how good it can be. When players learn to play the system and understand how it works. Same thing happened with DEs, in demo floors it looked pretty awesome but soon after release you find out they are very similar in nature. This and DEs are in general good but a fully dynamic world is probably farther away than we imagine.
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
I'm not entirely certain that I agree with Green's assessment here. The trinity came about because of the character design, not the AI. Classes distributed abilities (take damage, heal damage, give damage) in such a way to avoid the tank-mage syndrome of earlier systems. A single character could not do all three of these operations well.
AI doesn't enter into the equation at all. Any game system were these three fundamental abilities are distributed such that no one character is self-sufficient, that game will have a trinity of some nature, regardless of the cleverness of the computer controlled opponent. Even against human opponents, the trinity is dependent on the game system.
But at least having better, unpredictable AI would make trinity or role combat more fun.
Have trinity combat with advanced AI is a bit of an oxymoron. Having a mob solely focus on one member of a group through the entirety of a fight while a bunch of other people are bashing it isn't very good AI IMO...
"The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI. Vastly improved AI means a new dynamic is needed. Wait before you despair."
I'm not entirely certain that I agree with Green's assessment here. The trinity came about because of the character design, not the AI. Classes distributed abilities (take damage, heal damage, give damage) in such a way to avoid the tank-mage syndrome of earlier systems. A single character could not do all three of these operations well.
AI doesn't enter into the equation at all. Any game system were these three fundamental abilities are distributed such that no one character is self-sufficient, that game will have a trinity of some nature, regardless of the cleverness of the computer controlled opponent. Even against human opponents, the trinity is dependent on the game system.
But at least having better, unpredictable AI would make trinity or role combat more fun.
AI is only going to determine how the trinity would need to work in the case of a given encounter. A wizard isn't going to tank or heal.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
The purpose of these types of builds is to protect a 3d space and everything in it. It could work in PvE, become part of a group role if you use your imagination. It is just that PvE encounters are not being thoughtfully designed and do not challenge players enough to rely on strategy, teamwork and using all of their professions tools.
Which makes me sad. Cuz it's there, and it works. But it's not being utilized.
well if i guess right in eqn maybe there will be taunt like many mmorpg but
i don't think it will work against intelligent monster.
if the ai is done correctly monsters will try to kill the healer first and the tank last
That sounds like what he's hinting at, at least that's what I'd assume. If done right this could result in a better more strategic type of system. Instead of learning scripted behavior, we'll have to learn habitual behavior. Who does a goblin like to go after, what angers him, what stuns him etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
but a fully dynamic world is probably farther away than we imagine.
That's a very good point. They're saying they have it. They're saying their emergent AI is like a DM in a D&D game.
But until we actually see proof of it, it's all talk.
But what they're saying is pretty bold. That's for sure.
Just like every PR and hype campaign, they are saying what people want to hear. GW2 did it as well, the proof will be in the pudding though. 3-6 months into release we will know.
Comments
I'm not entirely certain that I agree with Green's assessment here. The trinity came about because of the character design, not the AI. Classes distributed abilities (take damage, heal damage, give damage) in such a way to avoid the tank-mage syndrome of earlier systems. A single character could not do all three of these operations well.
AI doesn't enter into the equation at all. Any game system were these three fundamental abilities are distributed such that no one character is self-sufficient, that game will have a trinity of some nature, regardless of the cleverness of the computer controlled opponent. Even against human opponents, the trinity is dependent on the game system.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
697'348 threads would say yes.
Although this entirely based on many core design choices of the game. AI, aggro management, combat mechanics, etc all play a role into what would become the meta. The reason traditional MMO's gravitated toward holy-trinity grouping is because that is how they were designed.
SOE does not want all players to be interchangeable. They stated numerous times throughout the panels at SOE live that they want EQN to have clear roles for the players - just not strict holy-trinity roles.
In theory I will agree with it.
But what about showing some footage of what they are talking about?
Because from what we saw so far, mobs were as reactive as a Python after eating a whole gazelle................
Words, words, words..................
Until I see an example of this "awesome" NPC AI, I am entitled to be skeptic
The holy trinity came about because of primitive MMO AI.
Mr member of EQN AI team,Im pretty sure there was paper and pen RPGs far before MMO AI and that AI wasnt really primitive.
And The holy trinity works well even with the ultimate "I".
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
As long as a new equally or better dynamic is introduced, I will be nothing but happy, however SoE can only blame themselves for all the rage and worry that it will be like GW2, they mentioned nothing about new dynamics to replace the trinity at SoE live, big mistake in my opinion.
But like I said, if they can add new dynamics I will be overjoyed, I just don't want another boring dps race like gw2, Never been as bored in groups as I was in gw2.
Way to contradict yourself....
Ya when I hear buzz words like "dynamic" I gag a little and wait for proof lol.
Save your tasty tears for a month after release when the AI is smarter than you and you cant kill a boss.
All of them ? how many have actually said that? SOE, and Story Bricks are touting that yes, people may be repeating it, that doesn't mean they are passing a judgement on it, there is a difference.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
We have seen the proof of storybricks AI in NPC interaction. So in that, its miles above most MMOs including GW2. As for combat UI, that we need to wait and see how well thats done or what they even promise.
I can't express the frustration I have when people refuse to imagine possibilities. You're right its does separate the innovators from the rest and maybe thats why there are much fewer innovators as a result.
But back on topic. This is great news and it makes sense that the current trinity system emerged out of the rudimentary AI available. It had to be some day the AI in games/mmos would progress beyond the current paradigm, I mean graphics have progressed but some how mob AI has remained stagnant for 10 plus years. It long over due.
well if i guess right in eqn maybe there will be taunt like many mmorpg but
i don't think it will work against intelligent monster.
if the ai is done correctly monsters will try to kill the healer first and the tank last
But at least having better, unpredictable AI would make trinity or role combat more fun.
The only games that can guaruntee no zerging are heavily instanced / non-MMOs.
People love to band together, to group up / team up to achieve a common goal. It's human nature. If it bothers you so much, you may want to stay away from social games. It's not like zergy, keyboard-mashing players force you to play the same way.
Contradicting what? I clearly stated that we have no idea how AI and roles will play out in EQN in context of combat. So people should wait and see without making wide assumptions.
My first statement is based on exactly what SOE has told us about EQN.
Even after some folks get their hands on it on demo floors we can't know for sure. Only after launch will we know how good it can be. When players learn to play the system and understand how it works. Same thing happened with DEs, in demo floors it looked pretty awesome but soon after release you find out they are very similar in nature. This and DEs are in general good but a fully dynamic world is probably farther away than we imagine.
Have trinity combat with advanced AI is a bit of an oxymoron. Having a mob solely focus on one member of a group through the entirety of a fight while a bunch of other people are bashing it isn't very good AI IMO...
AI is only going to determine how the trinity would need to work in the case of a given encounter. A wizard isn't going to tank or heal.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Well it really depends.
lets say their AI is really something.
I say to the monster that i was with his wife yesterday which is actually true.
My character is dwarf and opponent is elf.
I have low charisma and opponent hates me.
Opponent hates my red clothes.
Or really intelligent AI and monster has 1 intelligence so he attacks anything.
etc...
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Here is game-play of strategic action combat. This is what we refer to as a Bunker Build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEcESqtTRDI
The purpose of these types of builds is to protect a 3d space and everything in it. It could work in PvE, become part of a group role if you use your imagination. It is just that PvE encounters are not being thoughtfully designed and do not challenge players enough to rely on strategy, teamwork and using all of their professions tools.
Which makes me sad. Cuz it's there, and it works. But it's not being utilized.
That sounds like what he's hinting at, at least that's what I'd assume. If done right this could result in a better more strategic type of system. Instead of learning scripted behavior, we'll have to learn habitual behavior. Who does a goblin like to go after, what angers him, what stuns him etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's a very good point. They're saying they have it. They're saying their emergent AI is like a DM in a D&D game.
But until we actually see proof of it, it's all talk.
But what they're saying is pretty bold. That's for sure.
Just like every PR and hype campaign, they are saying what people want to hear. GW2 did it as well, the proof will be in the pudding though. 3-6 months into release we will know.