Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

The Trinity Can't Survive

GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Member CommonPosts: 576

This post may be long if so I apologize,

 

This is not an EQnext post, though obviously the topic has been brought up because of that game, which I will just say I don't think I or anyone else knows enough about to make a real value judgment on, it is obviously not even in a Beta stage yet.

The trinity was not always in Online RPG games, I am going to come out and say that because some people seem to believe that the trinity, which they humorously call holy, is a bedrock principle to successful online games. This is a load of horse manure. I started out in Gemstone IV, on GEnie at some crazy young age, we had great socialization, people on that game were famous for their class and during invasions, which could happen in any area even the area you started out in 5 minutes prior, those people were seen riding in like white knights and would save the day. The mechanics were totally alien to modern day MMO's, healers got exp for healing things not for being in a group that killed things, clerics got exp for raising dead people not for being in a group that killed things (though they were also capable of fighting as were the healers), thieves got exp for opening locked boxes. Enemies had to heal as well so there was no "reset" back then it was a totally different set of rules...no trinity..lots of social and grouping...people were known for what they did and what roles they played.

 I then went to UO, this was a crazy good game when it came out, the crafters were known for crafting I was in a guild with over 200 people and we had both inner guild conflict and outside guild conflict...battles had tactics because sheer numbers wouldn't always win..people played ranged and magic and melee..my guild was an RP guild so we put limitations on our characters but we still won over "l33t" players because of good group tactics a lot of time. Healers didn't have raid UI's...hell the UO U.I. would drive a WoW healer insane you had to click on every person to see his or her health. But there was socialization, some of it PvP derived but we would socialize with other large guilds...work on large projects...explore in large numbers because numbers were safer. People were known by their actions they performed.

Then came EQ and shortly after Asherons Call and then the behemoth of MMOs WoW, these, EQ and WOW, were not like the above two games they introduced mechanics that made the trinity and that are essential to the trinity. Artificial limitations on certain areas...a limit either by level or by party number. When you could only take x number of people in a dungeon and could only benefit from the loot inside that dungeon between x and y levels you had to carefully craft the right kind of party to get it done. This made the trinity, and to be honest it was awesome in its own way, it added a different kind of strategy to things.

 Some people say the trinity is older than that, and point to D&D, but this also had the same kind of limitation, your gaming group was only so big and your GM was presenting level appropriate stuff to you as you moved around so the ideal D&D group would have a front line warrior and a healer and some other classes for combat (though I might at this point say if your D&D group was all about combat you were doing something wrong), but WoW took that and made it hardbaked into the mechanics.

 

But,

If you want to remove these false, unrealistic even in a fantasy world, type of instances were the door tells you "you can only enter here at level X" or "you have too many people in your group" and want an open world then the trinity will no longer be an absolute necessity. Healers will still be needed but not as 1 of a group of 5. So many mechanics made these necessary that to keep the trinity you necessarily need these mechanics.

Taunts were needed because most games don't have the mechanics to physically position yourself between the attacked and the attacker like you would see in a D&D game, I still don't see a game really pulling that off to this date...but it should one day be possible. Without Collision most mobs just run through the guy with the tower shield standing between it and the mage, but it is not the only way to have a "defender". There can be innovation.

Without a number limitation there is nothing stopping you from zerging the heck out of things, there should be a way to compensate for this, I have yet to see it but you either have to choose to magic door instance method or remove that method and hope whatever solution the developers come up with works. But you can not have both, an open world dungeon will weaken the need for a trinity.

But older games have shown me that the trinity is not needed for socialization in an MMO or for strong player roles, it is only needed if the mechanics make it so, removing it doesn't solve anything by itself but it has to be removed if you take away the mechanics that made it neccesary in the first place, either the developers will remove it or players will realize it is not the only way to do business anymore and come up with other tactics. But you can still play a role, and be recognized for it, I know because I have seen it done without the trinity...just not not in the last ten years.

«1345

Comments

  • NephelaiNephelai Member UncommonPosts: 185

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020

    nothing you said even hints to why trinity cant survive. the fact that this genie game you played mobs could heal themselves and didn't reset health doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    UO not having mods or raid bars doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    [mod edit]

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592

    I've played GW2. I enjoy it. But I will take the trinity over it any day.

     

    You mentioned D&D, but really, at its core the trinity goes back WAY farther than that. What is the trinity, at its very core? It's a combat implementation of the specialization and diversification of labor ideals used in economics. By specializing in their respective niches, each member of the group increases their effectiveness, which raises the effectiveness of the group as a whole.

     

     

    <3

  • GrayKodiakGrayKodiak Member CommonPosts: 576
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    nothing you said even hints to why trinity cant survive. the fact that this genie game you played mobs could heal themselves and didn't reset health doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    UO not having mods or raid bars doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    [mod edit]

    Really? I thought I covered that, I went back and made it green.

    If you remove the instance limitations, the group number and level limitations that made the wow trinity the only possible way to defeat that content then you kill the trinity. Of course good games can have those limitations, but they are not the only possibility and if you want to remove those limitations, which a lot of people have asked for, then yes you lessen the trinity.

  • PanthienPanthien Member UncommonPosts: 559

    I kinna agree with the rest here, I didnt see anything being said about why the trinity cant survive.

    Not to mention in the earlier days (not sure if they ever changed it) there kinna was no limit amounth of people that could come to the raid in EQ1, that and.. technically speaking EQ1 wasnt dumbed down to the trinity, it really was more extended then that.

    Tank-healing-support-dmg (please note Im saying dmg not dps), for group play, in raids tanks-healers- 2 types of support- dps-burst dmg .

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by GrayKodiak
    Originally posted by Sephiroso

    nothing you said even hints to why trinity cant survive. the fact that this genie game you played mobs could heal themselves and didn't reset health doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    UO not having mods or raid bars doesn't say anything to trinity not surviving.

     

    [mod edit]

    Really? I thought I covered that, I went back and made it green.

    If you remove the instance limitations, the group number and level limitations that made the wow trinity the only possible way to defeat that content then you kill the trinity. Of course good games can have those limitations, but they are not the only possibility and if you want to remove those limitations, which a lot of people have asked for, then yes you lessen the trinity.

    You must be kidding yourself if you think removing group number limit is for the betterment of ANY game, because all that will do is turn whatever encounter that is into a zergfest. Level limitations, how much sense does it make that a level 1 warrior can defeat a level 100 behemoth? You shouldn't be fast enough to dodge its attacks nor strong enough to pierce its thick hide.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • EnrifEnrif Member UncommonPosts: 152
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    And exactly that is the trinity not doing. In the Trinity the mobs don't go for the squishy wizard who drops meteors on them, no they go for the heavy guarded guy with the shield who scratches you and insults your mother.

    If you want true roles you have to get rid of aggro pushers like taunts. A Tank should be a defender not a shoutbox. This can achieved with simple things.

    1.Collision - If the Tank stand ACTIVE between the Mob and the squishy, he protects the group. No need for fake aggro.

    2.True Control - An attack with a weapon has an impact on the one you hit, staggering the movement. Your shield bash, bashes and stops from running past you and other tools to stop the mobs from getting to the group- Again no need for the fake aggro.

     

  • isslingissling Member UncommonPosts: 162
    I don't care if there is a trinity or not. BUT I don't want to be like everybody else with the exact same skills and have some zerg fest. If they can create something other then just dps, then I would be fine, but for now I will back the trinity:) You guys are turning into the borg, we must all be the same!!
  • LatronusLatronus Member Posts: 692
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    image
  • SengiSengi Member CommonPosts: 350
     
    I think the real threat for the holy trinity is the trend towards improved  monster-AI. Both EQN and ESO will have more intelligent mobs that can cooperate among each other and react to the tactic the players are using.  
     
    The problem with the trinity is that it calls for a very dump AI. If the mobs don't do the same thing every time it stops working. So I believe that players will prefer more diverse fights over the trinity which is always the same. 
     
    You have to consider that the trinity in fact only is a cheap trick that exploits a weak mob AI. You trick the mobs into attacking the heavy armored guy that basically does no damage, while distracting him from the guys that do the real harm. Its build into the game that way, but it's still only a trick, not the natural way a fight does run. 
     
    My vision is that the holy trinity never has to die out completely, but that it becomes one tactic in a whole toolkit of different tactics players could use in certain situation. The trinity could be a great tactic for fighting really brainless opponents like slimes or zombies, but orcs for example would maybe fall for it the first time but then they would adapt and go straight for the guys in robes. And then the players would need a different tactic. 
     
  • PanthienPanthien Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    The guy who continuesly keeps blocking your way to another, By slamming a shield in your face for instance.

    ANd yes even historicly speaking you wouldnt walk past the guy in plate to try to get to archers, he'll plant that sword straight in your back while you are trying to get there. Granted in RL you dont have a X health pool to run through before you die.

     

  • MackeskimoMackeskimo Member Posts: 50

    Yea the wizard is really scary... booo!~

     

    The other guy is referred to as a tank...a F**KING TANK!... yea i'm way WAY more worried about this Tank guy the mages seem to run towards for safety...called TANK. LOL

    image
  • PanthienPanthien Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Originally posted by Mackeskimo

    Yea the wizard is really scary... booo!~

     

    The other guy is referred to as a tank...a F**KING TANK!... yea i'm way WAY more worried about this Tank guy the mages seem to run towards for safety...called TANK. LOL

    Glad you brought it up.

    Granted this isnt a RL fight but look at boromir. He could have tried to run past the guy(s) in plate to try to get to the "bigger"threat archer, he would never have made it to him.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJ5uIRJJxE

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Member UncommonPosts: 437
    Originally posted by Mackeskimo

    Yea the wizard is really scary... booo!~

     

    The other guy is referred to as a tank...a F**KING TANK!... yea i'm way WAY more worried about this Tank guy the mages seem to run towards for safety...called TANK. LOL

    If tanks played like actual tanks.. then your argument would be valid... tanks play like humvees.... they go slightly slower than normal speed and do even less damage.. while soaking up a good amount....

    sorry.. but real tanks are feared for a reason..... they take crap loads of dmg and dish out the most dmg of any land based wpn other than missiles... which are what mages are. 

    so again... the guy whos big and slow.. and doesn't hurt me... how is he a threat again?

    image
  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
    I think the real threat for the holy trinity is the trend towards improved  monster-AI. Both EQN and ESO will have more intelligent mobs that can cooperate among each other and react to the tactic the players are using.  
     
    The problem with the trinity is that it calls for a very dump AI. It the mobs don't do the same thing every time it stops working. So I believe that players will prefer more diverse fights over the trinity which is always the same. 
     
    You have to consider that the trinity in fact only is a cheap trick that exploits a weak mob AI. You trick the mobs into attacking the heavy armored guy that basically does no damage, while distracting him from the guys that do the real harm. Its build into the game that way, but it's still only a trick, not the natural way a fight does run. 
     
    My vision is that the holy trinity never has to die out completely, but that it becomes one tactic in a whole toolkit of different tactics players could use in certain situation. The trinity could be a great tactic for fighting really brainless opponents like slimes or zombies, but orcs for example would maybe fall for it the first time but then they would adapt and go straight for the guys in robes. And then the players would need a different tactic. 
     

    I think your logic is a bit flawed. First, just because a game has lame AI doesn't mean it's the trinitys fault. Wow dumbed down their AI to get a more casual gamer to play mmos. EQ had mobs that would run away and bring back help, many times higher level help and you had to adjust tactics to compensate. Also, EQ trinity was actually 4- along with support/cc, which newer games took out. Trinity can adjust to any AI if they make the classes more robust and flexible. Such as tank having many options to protect others in group, besides the pretty lame taunt mechanic-collision, trip, bash/knockdown, take hit meant for caster, etc. and give the squishier classes some temp skills to avoid or defend so they don't immediately die if they are targeted. How does a zergish, everyone watches out for themselves system make it any easier to adjust to different tactics? Trinity is about playing a role, not necessarily having to do it in just one way. Give the classes some option to play their role and we could stop calling it a trinity, as new roles could be developed and we'd have more than 3-cc, support, hybrid, leadership, etc.

    I do agree devs have been lazy for the most part by making AI needlessly predictable, so that any, not just trinity, styles can beat most mobs/quests.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Member UncommonPosts: 437
    Originally posted by Panthien
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    The guy who continuesly keeps blocking your way to another, By slamming a shield in your face for instance.

    ANd yes even historicly speaking you wouldnt walk past the guy in plate to try to get to archers, he'll plant that sword straight in your back while you are trying to get there. Granted in RL you dont have a X health pool to run through before you die.

     

    sorry guy... but they don't disagree with you.. the point they are making... is that tanks don't play the way you describe in most mmos... if they did.. no one would complain about how the trinity mechanics work.

    image
  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    Have you played WoW recently? Tanks are the ones doing top dps in dungeons nowadays due to aoe dmg. Also Tanks not only do pretty decent dps now, they also are debuffing the enemies armor by a good percentage which allows every other damage dealer to do more damage.

     

    If you want to get rid of aggro/taunt then so be it, but you also must get rid of the fact that 99% bosses can't be affected by snare/hamstring/stun/knockdown skills. So the tank would still be keeping the mob on them because they'd ensure the mob wouldn't be able to move hardly.

     

    Anyone who says smart AI can't be used in trinity system is just being ignorant.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,020
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Panthien
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    The guy who continuesly keeps blocking your way to another, By slamming a shield in your face for instance.

    ANd yes even historicly speaking you wouldnt walk past the guy in plate to try to get to archers, he'll plant that sword straight in your back while you are trying to get there. Granted in RL you dont have a X health pool to run through before you die.

     

    sorry guy... but they don't disagree with you.. the point they are making... is that tanks don't play the way you describe in most mmos... if they did.. no one would complain about how the trinity mechanics work.

    fact is, yes that is indeed how tanks play in mmos nowadays. even without an aggro system/taunt, tanks still generally have a shield slam ability that has a chance to stun or will interrupt casting or knockdown etc. the tank is still always right there in front of the mob and in most games tanks even have abilities that take damage in place of party members. so yes, tanks still play the way he said which is why tanks are just that, tanks. tanks arent tanks because of aggro/taunt, they're tanks because they're the ones built to take alot of damage and to keep the monster away from everyone else.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty

    that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    The guy who continuesly keeps blocking your way to another, By slamming a shield in your face for instance.

    ANd yes even historicly speaking you wouldnt walk past the guy in plate to try to get to archers, he'll plant that sword straight in your back while you are trying to get there. Granted in RL you dont have a X health pool to run through before you die.

     

    sorry guy... but they don't disagree with you.. the point they are making... is that tanks don't play the way you describe in most mmos... if they did.. no one would complain about how the trinity mechanics work.

    Thats on the devs to not be lazy and put the effort into each class to make it unique, while giving more options. I just don't see how an 8 skill zerg is going to be better. I want more choices not less. And not all the skills on the bar are even attacks. I don't want my warrior spinning whirlwind every other attack like the demo showed. Not very tactical or fun just using a few attacks.

  • PanthienPanthien Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by Panthien
    Originally posted by Latronus
    Originally posted by Nephelai

    You gravely under estimate human nature.

     

    Very few people want to play "all roles", particularly leadership style roles, at all - just as in real life just as in game.

     

    The trinity will be around for a very long time and makes sense - the boss or mobs attack the thing that is the highest threat to it life (albeit a mechanic). Makes sense in game makes sense in real life. A boss running around zerging everyone ignoring the biggest threat to its life isn't realistic at all. People should be focusing on making it more attractive for tanks and healers rather than dps trying to find a way to eliminate the class.

     

     

    You have a major flaw in your logic.  Who IS the biggest threat?  The guy in heavy armor that does the lowest amount amount of damage, which by the way, is in no way historically accurate, the healers, or the guys running around behind him to attack from behind?  Who would you attack?  The idiot insulting your mom to build agro, or the healer, or the squishes trying to take you down from behind?  

    If you say the tank, you are either an idiot, which I seriously doubt, or don't want to admit that the mechanic is old and outdated.

    The guy who continuesly keeps blocking your way to another, By slamming a shield in your face for instance.

    ANd yes even historicly speaking you wouldnt walk past the guy in plate to try to get to archers, he'll plant that sword straight in your back while you are trying to get there. Granted in RL you dont have a X health pool to run through before you die.

     

    sorry guy... but they don't disagree with you.. the point they are making... is that tanks don't play the way you describe in most mmos... if they did.. no one would complain about how the trinity mechanics work.

    In a sense they do, for practical reasons (probebly) you dont have to continuesly  keep following the boss around to block his path. There are so many ways in combat to force you on me, without having to follow and jump in front of you.

    Even if distance is the only obstruction its still hard to get to your said target to go for the healer in the back or that mage or archer. pvp has proven that.

    But kinna offtopic.. the people who are complaining about the realism.. how many play a mage/wizard?

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Member UncommonPosts: 437
    Originally posted by ropenice
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
    I think the real threat for the holy trinity is the trend towards improved  monster-AI. Both EQN and ESO will have more intelligent mobs that can cooperate among each other and react to the tactic the players are using.  
     
    The problem with the trinity is that it calls for a very dump AI. It the mobs don't do the same thing every time it stops working. So I believe that players will prefer more diverse fights over the trinity which is always the same. 
     
    You have to consider that the trinity in fact only is a cheap trick that exploits a weak mob AI. You trick the mobs into attacking the heavy armored guy that basically does no damage, while distracting him from the guys that do the real harm. Its build into the game that way, but it's still only a trick, not the natural way a fight does run. 
     
    My vision is that the holy trinity never has to die out completely, but that it becomes one tactic in a whole toolkit of different tactics players could use in certain situation. The trinity could be a great tactic for fighting really brainless opponents like slimes or zombies, but orcs for example would maybe fall for it the first time but then they would adapt and go straight for the guys in robes. And then the players would need a different tactic. 
     

    I think your logic is a bit flawed. First, just because a game has lame AI doesn't mean it's the trinitys fault. Wow dumbed down their AI to get a more casual gamer to play mmos. EQ had mobs that would run away and bring back help, many times higher level help and you had to adjust tactics to compensate. Also, EQ trinity was actually 4- along with support/cc, which newer games took out. Trinity can adjust to any AI if they make the classes more robust and flexible. Such as tank having many options to protect others in group, besides the pretty lame taunt mechanic-collision, trip, bash/knockdown, take hit meant for caster, etc. and give the squishier classes some temp skills to avoid or defend so they don't immediately die if they are targeted. How does a zergish, everyone watches out for themselves system make it any easier to adjust to different tactics? Trinity is about playing a role, not necessarily having to do it in just one way. Give the classes some option to play their role and we could stop calling it a trinity, as new roles could be developed and we'd have more than 3-cc, support, hybrid, leadership, etc.

    I do agree devs have been lazy for the most part by making AI needlessly predictable, so that any, not just trinity, styles can beat most mobs/quests.

    Honestly.. it seems like you agree with him.. what you are describing would no longer be called the trinity. and no one really hates the trinity.. they hate the lame taunt/agro mechanic... in real fights whether in a fantasy world or otherwise..... most battles are man to man(the exception being when you outnumber ur opponent) so a tank mechanic is pointless.. the only time tanks really come into play is in massive battles when they are on the front lines or in narrow surroundings where the tank could effectively stand in front and protect everyone...

    to be fair.. real fights are zergs or seem to be some semblance of it... but to me that is what makes them interesting. in  a real fight.. you have to watch out for urself AND your team mate.. but in the trinity u typically only have to watch out for no one.. unless u are the healer or tank...

    I think that in the open world the trinity should be removed..I don't mean the roles should be removed... but i think that encounters involving more than 1 mob should not have the trinity employed unless there is a tank for every mob.. the trinity should only be employed in tight quarters or when your facing a boss mob...

    otherwise the battle should go like this...... the squishies. avoid combat while supporting who ever they can... the dps guy takes the least armored person or if he is free because they out number the enemy he helps against the enemy with the most hp.. and the tank.. he attack and keeps the guy with the most dmg/most hp busy  until help arrives... its more realistic.. and everyone would still have a role. yes combat would be a little more chaotic.. but combat is chaotic by nature... sooooo.. i don't see the problem.

    image
  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840

    Let just gives the mob some super AI that makes em vanish away or evac when about to die.

    We have to stop comparing this with reality, it's role playing games.

    The rogue that is doing some huge damage backstabing  also use vanishing techniques he learned from a ninja master so when that demon he is fighting turns around, he sees... nothing, so go back to the current in your face threat that use insults, kneecap/sensible parts hits. The mage use some telepathic ability that makes you forget he is there. And when he watch that healer in the back, waving his hands all around he don't have a clue wtf he is doing so he don't care about it

    It's all about how you want to make it look, sure at first glance it can look retarded but without that all you have left is a zergfest or totally random encounters.

     

     

  • PanthienPanthien Member UncommonPosts: 559
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by ropenice
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
    I think the real threat for the holy trinity is the trend towards improved  monster-AI. Both EQN and ESO will have more intelligent mobs that can cooperate among each other and react to the tactic the players are using.  
     
    The problem with the trinity is that it calls for a very dump AI. It the mobs don't do the same thing every time it stops working. So I believe that players will prefer more diverse fights over the trinity which is always the same. 
     
    You have to consider that the trinity in fact only is a cheap trick that exploits a weak mob AI. You trick the mobs into attacking the heavy armored guy that basically does no damage, while distracting him from the guys that do the real harm. Its build into the game that way, but it's still only a trick, not the natural way a fight does run. 
     
    My vision is that the holy trinity never has to die out completely, but that it becomes one tactic in a whole toolkit of different tactics players could use in certain situation. The trinity could be a great tactic for fighting really brainless opponents like slimes or zombies, but orcs for example would maybe fall for it the first time but then they would adapt and go straight for the guys in robes. And then the players would need a different tactic. 
     

    I think your logic is a bit flawed. First, just because a game has lame AI doesn't mean it's the trinitys fault. Wow dumbed down their AI to get a more casual gamer to play mmos. EQ had mobs that would run away and bring back help, many times higher level help and you had to adjust tactics to compensate. Also, EQ trinity was actually 4- along with support/cc, which newer games took out. Trinity can adjust to any AI if they make the classes more robust and flexible. Such as tank having many options to protect others in group, besides the pretty lame taunt mechanic-collision, trip, bash/knockdown, take hit meant for caster, etc. and give the squishier classes some temp skills to avoid or defend so they don't immediately die if they are targeted. How does a zergish, everyone watches out for themselves system make it any easier to adjust to different tactics? Trinity is about playing a role, not necessarily having to do it in just one way. Give the classes some option to play their role and we could stop calling it a trinity, as new roles could be developed and we'd have more than 3-cc, support, hybrid, leadership, etc.

    I do agree devs have been lazy for the most part by making AI needlessly predictable, so that any, not just trinity, styles can beat most mobs/quests.

    Honestly.. it seems like you agree with him.. what you are describing would no longer be called the trinity. and no one really hates the trinity.. they hate the lame taunt/agro mechanic... in real fights whether in a fantasy world or otherwise..... most battles are man to man(the exception being when you outnumber ur opponent) so a tank mechanic is pointless.. the only time tanks really come into play is in massive battles when they are on the front lines or in narrow surroundings where the tank could effectively stand in front and protect everyone...

    to be fair.. real fights are zergs or seem to be some semblance of it... but to me that is what makes them interesting. in  a real fight.. you have to watch out for urself AND your team mate.. but in the trinity u typically only have to watch out for no one.. unless u are the healer or tank...

    I think that in the open world the trinity should be removed..I don't mean the roles should be removed... but i think that encounters involving more than 1 mob should not have the trinity employed unless there is a tank for every mob.. the trinity should only be employed in tight quarters or when your facing a boss mob...

    otherwise the battle should go like this...... the squishies. avoid combat while supporting who ever they can... the dps guy takes the least armored person or if he is free because they out number the enemy he helps against the enemy with the most hp.. and the tank.. he attack and keeps the guy with the most dmg/most hp busy  until help arrives... its more realistic.. and everyone would still have a role. yes combat would be a little more chaotic.. but combat is chaotic by nature... sooooo.. i don't see the problem.

    You do realise this right? I you truely want realistic.. Every melee would be a dps/tank hybrid blocking the path to the archers, whi btw.. would no longer should anything near their own (melee) allies to avoid hitting their own troops. (why do you think the artillery stops shooting when the grunts go on the assault), There wont be any magical classes nor any healing.

    This has been proven by pretty much every battlefield in history. Even if we leave magical users in, the same principle applies.

    Edit : even the Original EQ took this into acount, a wizard couldnt hit his target unless he had a actual clear LoS, though later they patched in shock based spells which no longer required a unobscured LoS

  • ropeniceropenice Member UncommonPosts: 588
    Originally posted by Neo_Liberty
    Originally posted by ropenice
    Originally posted by Sengi
     
    I think the real threat for the holy trinity is the trend towards improved  monster-AI. Both EQN and ESO will have more intelligent mobs that can cooperate among each other and react to the tactic the players are using.  
     
    The problem with the trinity is that it calls for a very dump AI. It the mobs don't do the same thing every time it stops working. So I believe that players will prefer more diverse fights over the trinity which is always the same. 
     
    You have to consider that the trinity in fact only is a cheap trick that exploits a weak mob AI. You trick the mobs into attacking the heavy armored guy that basically does no damage, while distracting him from the guys that do the real harm. Its build into the game that way, but it's still only a trick, not the natural way a fight does run. 
     
    My vision is that the holy trinity never has to die out completely, but that it becomes one tactic in a whole toolkit of different tactics players could use in certain situation. The trinity could be a great tactic for fighting really brainless opponents like slimes or zombies, but orcs for example would maybe fall for it the first time but then they would adapt and go straight for the guys in robes. And then the players would need a different tactic. 
     

    I think your logic is a bit flawed. First, just because a game has lame AI doesn't mean it's the trinitys fault. Wow dumbed down their AI to get a more casual gamer to play mmos. EQ had mobs that would run away and bring back help, many times higher level help and you had to adjust tactics to compensate. Also, EQ trinity was actually 4- along with support/cc, which newer games took out. Trinity can adjust to any AI if they make the classes more robust and flexible. Such as tank having many options to protect others in group, besides the pretty lame taunt mechanic-collision, trip, bash/knockdown, take hit meant for caster, etc. and give the squishier classes some temp skills to avoid or defend so they don't immediately die if they are targeted. How does a zergish, everyone watches out for themselves system make it any easier to adjust to different tactics? Trinity is about playing a role, not necessarily having to do it in just one way. Give the classes some option to play their role and we could stop calling it a trinity, as new roles could be developed and we'd have more than 3-cc, support, hybrid, leadership, etc.

    I do agree devs have been lazy for the most part by making AI needlessly predictable, so that any, not just trinity, styles can beat most mobs/quests.

    Honestly.. it seems like you agree with him.. what you are describing would no longer be called the trinity. and no one really hates the trinity.. they hate the lame taunt/agro mechanic... in real fights whether in a fantasy world or otherwise..... most battles are man to man(the exception being when you outnumber ur opponent) so a tank mechanic is pointless.. the only time tanks really come into play is in massive battles when they are on the front lines or in narrow surroundings where the tank could effectively stand in front and protect everyone...

    to be fair.. real fights are zergs or seem to be some semblance of it... but to me that is what makes them interesting. in  a real fight.. you have to watch out for urself AND your team mate.. but in the trinity u typically only have to watch out for no one.. unless u are the healer or tank...

    I think that in the open world the trinity should be removed..I don't mean the roles should be removed... but i think that encounters involving more than 1 mob should not have the trinity employed unless there is a tank for every mob.. the trinity should only be employed in tight quarters or when your facing a boss mob...

    otherwise the battle should go like this...... the squishies. avoid combat while supporting who ever they can... the dps guy takes the least armored person or if he is free because they out number the enemy he helps against the enemy with the most hp.. and the tank.. he attack and keeps the guy with the most dmg/most hp busy  until help arrives... its more realistic.. and everyone would still have a role. yes combat would be a little more chaotic.. but combat is chaotic by nature... sooooo.. i don't see the problem.

    So we agree, that was my point is that in trinity you have roles. Without trinity, you don't. Everyone seems to do their own thing with no tactics. People call EQ combat the trinity, but it had 4 (maybe 5) roles, with cc and support, so it was never a trinity anyway. Devs could just expand on this while having roles but not narrow like trinity. The newer action combat their don't seem to have roles, people defend or heal themselves, there is no dependency or tactics. And the role combat style shouldn't hinge on just having 3 types where you wait around for a cleric. Combos with backup healers, cc, support,dps should be just as viable if each individual role has enough tools at their disposal, but still need tactics and teamwork. I'm tired of these games where no one groups, or if they do its so easy or zergy no one talks or uses strategy.

  • stayBlindstayBlind Member UncommonPosts: 512
    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    I've played GW2. I enjoy it. But I will take the trinity over it any day.

     

    You mentioned D&D, but really, at its core the trinity goes back WAY farther than that. What is the trinity, at its very core? It's a combat implementation of the specialization and diversification of labor ideals used in economics. By specializing in their respective niches, each member of the group increases their effectiveness, which raises the effectiveness of the group as a whole.

     

     

    ArenaNet are just bad developers. They ignore one-third of their trinity (control). Please stop using GW2 as an example.

    Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.

Sign In or Register to comment.