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SE should learn from fans how to make proper battle system
markarius
Member Posts: 7
I found this post on FF14 beta tester forum. You should read it.
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Nurvus' Battle System Feedback
<blockquote restore="" "="">I have created a document - linked at the bottom of this post.
I will keep updating and polishing it to make my points as clear and readable as possible, as I cover as many important aspects of FFXIV's Battle System as I can.
The document contains a series of thoughts regarding what I believe works in MMOs, my opinion on the current state of FFXIV and what I think could be improved.
I do not mean to imply that the game needs all the changes I suggest.
I'm merely voicing my concerns over various aspects of the game, and providing possible solutions.
I strongly believe that FFXIV should not settle for systems that resemble other MMOs.
FFXIV should set a new standard.
The concepts I present are subjective, but before you read the document I linked, please understand the following:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...EA4BgviOsI/pub
Also check my thread about about Gathering, Crafting and Itemization:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Tes...ation-Feedback
I will keep updating and polishing it to make my points as clear and readable as possible, as I cover as many important aspects of FFXIV's Battle System as I can.
The document contains a series of thoughts regarding what I believe works in MMOs, my opinion on the current state of FFXIV and what I think could be improved.
I do not mean to imply that the game needs all the changes I suggest.
I'm merely voicing my concerns over various aspects of the game, and providing possible solutions.
I strongly believe that FFXIV should not settle for systems that resemble other MMOs.
FFXIV should set a new standard.
The concepts I present are subjective, but before you read the document I linked, please understand the following:
- We aren't all the most eloquent speakers.
Words are used imperfectly, and as such please try to take them with moderation and understanding. - Strategy isn't the opposite of Action, and Action isn't synonim of Twitch.
Strategizing before combat and then watching combat unfold - on its own - isn't good for a game's longevity, since eventually the strategies will be known, and the challenge is gone.
Therefore, there needs to be difficult decision-making in the heat of combat, requiring spontaneity.
This goes for group strategy, but also goes for skill usage and rotation. - Coordination doesn't require the absence of Individualism.
You can feel special as an individual, while still greatly contributing to a coordinated effort. - Most systems and mechanics in MMOs are connected.
Even seemingly distinct parts of the game, such as content, combat and economy, are deeply connected.
From the activities content encourages, to the rewards combat provides, to the tools you can obtain through economy.
It's unrealistic to change a mechanic or system in an MMO and expect nothing else to be affected.
When you make mechanic or system changes to MMOs, you must make them in groups and with the bigger picture in mind. - The game doesn't need a perfect launch, but the Developers must at least be willing to make big changes to the game even after launch, and let the players know they are.
- Don't think in extremes. It leads discussions nowhere.
- As you read my document, try to see how my suggestions mesh together as a whole, rather than evaluating them individually.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...EA4BgviOsI/pub
Also check my thread about about Gathering, Crafting and Itemization:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ARR-Tes...ation-Feedback
Comments
And, what about the fans that like the combat as it is? Do they not count? I prefer tab targeting over action combat because action combat isn't any better! IT's click, 1, click, 2, click, 3, click, 4, click 5, click 1, click 8, ...
Sure you have to aim but anyone who has played an fps ever doesn't have an issue with this. Not mention this game isn't only for PC. Consoles would be at a disadvantage (Especially in PVP) with action combat. But hey wtf do I know?
I don't agree, but just my opinion. I am ecstatic that it is the way it is, and the main enhancement I would make right now is expanding on the limit break system.
I also liked all of the classic battle systems way more than the new crap they are coming up with in their single player RPG games though.
I like the current system. Please don't change it.
There are many action combat games on the market (GW2, TERA) with TESO and Everquest on their way. Leave the traditional and old school feel of FFXIV for the rest of us.
GW2 combat was great for the first month, then I realized lvl 80 played just like lvl 30. 10 abilities, combo finisher, combo blash, etc etc.
No progression, just linear combat. Thanks but no thanks.
Having a "proper battle system" is subjective and is in the eye of the beholder. Personally I like the current system that SE has in place for FFXIV and would be very disappointed to see an action combat system put in place.
"While fighting, you should need some stability to perform your attacks at full power.
Furthermore, you should never be able to move at full speed while performing tasks.
So I think Moving & Attacking should have a few unique interactions.
Mode A - Pressing a movement key during the animation of an attack skill:
Instead of running at full speed with a broken animation, you lunge in the desired direction, but in function of the target’s position.
Pressing once Strafe Right or Left would make your character perform a quick side-step around the target.
Pressing forward would make your character lunge towards the target.
Pressing backward would make your character hop backwards.
Since you only need to press the direction once - rather than holding it - this actually frees your hand for other tasks.
Notice that movement would only behave this way if you initiate movement while already performing an attack skill.
Once the skill is finished, movement controls return to normal.
This is not a dodge - it just removes the need to keep the directional buttons pressed all the time.
Mode B - Auto-attacking & Moving:
Movement should be slightly slower while auto-attack is turned on - at least while you are facing the target.
Auto-attack timer should slow down while you are moving, so moving 0.5s with a 20% auto-attack penalty results in a 0.1s delay.
Mode C - Initiating an attack skill while already moving:
Character stops to perform the skill, and you enter Mode A.
Mode A actually makes it easier to manage skills from classes that require positioning, like LNC and PGL.
Mode B and C help prevent Kiting from becoming overwhelmingly useful."
''There, each type of movement gives specific bonuses and penalties.
Forward
Slightly increases damage dealt, but also reduces defenses
Note, that when running away from someone with your back turned, you’re effectively moving forward, so you take more damage.
Backwards
Increases block and parry, but greatly reduces movement speed and damage dealt
Strafing
Increases evasion, but reduces movement and damage dealt''
There is suggestion of movement while fighting as above. Expecting players to use movement keys while fighting is for me a bit difficult and with my current issues of aching limbs not the best. So I like the combat as is
No action combat please. K thx.
Tab target combat is just fine for MMOs, and I really prefer it - as well as solid Trinity mechanics.
Thank god this game is done and will ship the way it is currently.
yeah, but thats actually only 1 his point out of 15 about combat, and the remaining 14 are NOT about making combat more action based (actually not even part of this isnt, it is just some addition to existing one, like making moving in combat actually give you a penalty to attack speed/accuracy, defense or movement speed)
I will agree totally that the battle system needs work but to think SE does not know is very naive.
There is ONLY one reason the combat and game were originally released in a weak state>>>RUSHED.
This game cost them far too much money and the engine gave them fits,they had to rebuild the engine and take too much time doing it.I had to endure those huge losses even inside of recently rushed FFXI content.They were simply "HOPING" to get away with a limited product to help recoup the heavy losses they took building the game AND engine.
Point is they KNOW how to make a great combat system,they did it in FFXI,all they had to do was tweak that one and it would be the best system on the planet,NOTHING coming close.However as i said they had to think of ways to rush the product and had to stream line the system to do it.Also adding to the problem was trying to continue the trends of SOLO game play.
Anyhow that actual post was talking in extreme VAGUE terms,it would do nothing to lend aid to a developer in creating a better system.As i said they already have the best knowledge in that area through FFXI.
If the ONLY reason is to instill action based,that is a poor reason and does not make a game any better,unless playing a FPS,which this is not.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
personally one of the biggest issues for me with 14 is the combat. Its so much of the same crap ive seen. And no, i dont want action combat, i want how 1.23's combat was, a bit slower and less spammy where combos and WSs had some UMPH! behind them and not just feeling like mashable auto attacks. I wanna land a WS and do big number and watching me take a nice chunk of the mobs health.
Right now it just feels like i spam the same high damage combo to death and just watch cooldown over watching the fight (you feel like if your not spamming, your loosing DPS or w/e) Of course part of that problem is that for well over half the game, and during any non Boss mob fight, TP is pretty much infinate feeling. This is only like this because they need to roll the PVP and PVE combat into one, instead of treating them like seperate things....like they should be. PVE and PVP never balance. And this game PVP is a side attraction thats instanced anyways.
1.23 combat was HORRIFIC!!!
Auto attack x3, WSx3, Auto attack x3, WSx3.... sprinkle in some buffing abilities.
This system was so passive. Watch your TP fill up... use an ability... watch your tp fill up... use an ability blah blah blah.
At least now, you have to know what to use and when to use it. If you spam certain abilities you will be TP or Mana starved. You have to know which chain to do at a certain time.... it has way more potential than 1.23.
1.23 was YoshiP making lemonade out of Tanaka's lemons. 2.0 is YoshiP's baby and I can't wait to see the whole system in action, THE WAY IT'S INTENDED.....
END GAME raid and dungeon content.
I couldn't agree more with both of you. FFXI had a brilliant system and if expanded on would be incredible. I couldn't play 1.0 but I've seen some videos and I did like the slower pace. The only reason every MMO out there has fast paced combat in my opinion is to hide the flaws of it's shallow combat system, and unfortunately this has become the standard. SE has the resources to create a slower, deeper, more intimate battle system but this game needs to recover money and the best way to do that is by targeting the largest audience and following the standard set by less talented developers.
The market has their hands tied at the moment and in it's form as is it's still better than everything out there that it's similar to but we know it can be much better.
Most of you didn't even take 5 minutes and actually read the documents i linked in first post.
WORKING AS INTENDED!
http://absoluteretribution.enjin.com/ Guild Website and Recruitment link
You couldn't be more wrong.
If they are so concerned about money lost why did they spend over 3 million dollars on the 10 minute CG ending for 1.0? Think about it, 3 mil on a cg for a game that doesn't exist anymore.
The game is NOT rushed. They have a bigger staff working on ARR then most other mmorpgs combined. Over 300 people. With those people working on the game what part of the game isn't first rate? The music is second to none. Graphics some of the best ever seen in an mmo. Story on par with any other FF title and that's saying something for a company known for its story telling. More endgame at release than any other mmo I've ever heard of. Crafting and gathering seem like they will be A+. There is so much content in this game its ridiculous.
So if you were going to rush a game and in the process "cut some corners" where would you cut? Story, because that's something you can add and tweak after release. Endgame for sure, that too can be added later.
Honestly one of the very last things you would cut corners on would be combat, because it is something that people will use and notice from Day 1.
I believe that the Devs at SE are smarter than some of you give them credit for. Because of that fact that you need to level 2 classes just to start leveling 1 job. Because you need to level other classes to get the cross class abilities that will make your job more viable for endgame. Because you can level every class and job on one character, who the hell in their right mind wants action combat or anything similar to it, while leveling for potentially hundreds to thousands of levels?
Who wants to dodge red crap, rolling and running while trying to aim at thousand upon thousands of mobs, just to get to the objective that 80% of all mmo players only care about. Endgame.
Not this guy. Luckily Yoshi P. and his staff understand the bigger picture.
You count as having terrible taste in game design!
Easy fix: Don't play.
Nothing you say or do (ESPECIALLY not on these forums) is going to change it. In short: cry moar.
Hi, there.
Thanks alot for linking my documents here, markarius
So now that the game has launched, do you guys still think its gameplay is just as it should?
Are you still even playing the game?
The beta didn't look promising to me - I played all classes, checked all passive and active skills until it was clear to me that the game had no depth - just eye candy.
It led me to share my concerns in the forums, but any thread stating the game needed change was buried by zealots.
Now that it's launched, it's clear that SE didn't give us a second FFXI, not even a FFXIV - it's yet another beautiful WoW clone, just like Rift and SWTOR.
With all their promises, SE just gave us a beautiful, artistically detailed game with alot of appeal to nostalgia and fan service, yet with a combat system all about preparation and memorization, but zero player skill - it's a gear/level check since level 1.
i don, gave it 2 weeks, hit cap, was pretty much done with a relic and i quit. The combat is a standard "wanna-be" action rotation spam found in most games. 1.2x's combat was heading somewhere i liked, a FFXI but with more movement and a higher speed, but of course they chucked it out. Not even the new update has me even remotely intrested, basically all my friends quit or barely play (dont get me started on this heavy instanced tiny world with token latter climb crap endgame)
If this would have just built off 1.2x's ideas and core gameplay, id be playing this for years like i did FFXI...but that went down the toilet.