Originally posted by Riposte.This Why does every game have the same fucking warrior class. If I see another Whirlwind ability on a fighter class I'm going to go on a rampage
haha, no kidding. Though with the number of classes that there are it's probably just inevitable that these "iconic" (read: banal) abilities had to have popped up somewhere. That they may have stuck them all on one class is probably just a way for them to keep the older and younger ends of the player base from getting scared and confused.
Explain to me which race in history didn't have a basic warrior?
A warrior is a fighter specializing in wars. If you can name me one civilization that never had a war, then that civilization never had warriors.
It's not about keeping "older and younger ends of the player base from getting scared and confused"... its to keep those with burnt out gamer needs from corrupting what games should be. If you are playing a Tolkien style game with elves, dwarves, arches and wizards, then having a warrior class is inevitable. It would be dumb to think that they could have wars, and not a single one of them would think: "O look, a big piece of wood, with a sharp bit at the end, maybe if I hit someone on the head hard enough, it would cause a boo boo..." The moment that plank of wood is held and someone is smacked with it in an act of war... that person became a warrior.
Hopefully they can improve where GW2 failed. PvE without the Trinity either leads to encounters that are too easy or encounters that are too tedious (kite kite kite corpse run kite kite kite).
I don't see how they can do it, though. The problem was never the Trinity, the problem was limited roles and equipment. That's been fixed even in WoW for years now. It's inconceivable that players aren't able to find tanks or healers in modern MMOs between multi-specs and dungeon finders.
I love when people claim that something isn't innovative. As if every game needs a new, never-before-seen combat system in order to be good. Then you ask that person what they would suggest, and they are speechless.
It's easy to make a statement like that, but much harder to actually come up with something yourself.
I personally like the system that they rolled out for us to see. Abilities are tied to weapons, which are locked for customization. As are the types of armors that you can wear with any given class. The class abilities though, are where your character takes shape. And according to the panels, only one of several (Not being revealed) ways in which you can customize your abilities. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about the idea to be able to use any spell or ability from any class to create the ultimate hybrid. Now it's actually being given to us, and that is awesome to me. It will be fun to see the types of combinations that everyone can come up with. Every time you obtain a new class, you'll have several new abilities to play with, along with weapon sets and armor configurations. It will be like leveling up and visiting a class trainer. And your armor and weapons are no longer just pixels with stats tied to them. They will actually alter your spells and skills, which opens up a whole new customization opportunity.
And remember, they said that there are other ways to customize things that they aren't revealing yet. I really think the character building system in this game has a lot of promise. Can it be balanced? Good luck with that. But, I love the choices that they are giving players. How many games have done this in the past ten years? Not many.
.... Dajag made a great point too about fights in real life. People say it is unrealistic for someone to stay put fighting the guy in front instead of running after the guy throwing things at him, but that is crazy lol. Running after that other guy is just begging for a beat down. Best bet is to make quick work of the big guy and cause the others to panic and disperse.
Sometimes in games, the mobs would run after the caster, and not just attack the tank. The melee would just follow it beating the crap out of it while the caster ran in circles. If you think about it, the mob would have had better luck just trying to kill the warrior in front of it, then mopping up the more fragile classes instead of doing no damage to anyone.
It's a terrible analogy, because its unrealistic to think there is a guy that is "throwing things at you" because they don't exist in real life fights because no one is throwing things at people over and over again in fight or if you want to translate "caster" into real life, he would be holding a gun and will be the much bigger threat than an unarmed tough guy in the front. The bigger threat is always the priority in any type of fight and generally you would target the thing that would potentially do more damage. You wouldn't want to "focus" the tough guy because he's big and can take damage, you would focus him its because he's the biggest threat currently until someone pulls a gun or a knife.
This is not the case in the trinity when you play tank. Tanks are actually the lowest priority target because they generally do lower damage than DPS and are much harder to kill. Thats why they had to invent an abritrary threat system or else the whole thing wouldn't work. It was a cheap way to create roles in the early days. It worked for its time but its beyond played out after over a decade of use.
Again, whats the point of creating a game that utilizes the trinity when there are other games that have polished this type of system and created large amounts of encounters specifically for this. Newer games shouldn't be using the same systems over and over again or else the genre will never progress. It's like reinventing the wheel.
If we're going to talk realism nothing you're asking for is real either. If someone were shooting at me and there was a guy in front of me trying to hit me, I wouldn't ignore one and try to take on the other at all. I'd run to get help or take cover. Switching who the bad guy decides to respond to doesn't make it any more realistic, it just changes who his focus is. The fact he focuses on just one person and does nothing to defend himself is what is unrealistic.
___________________________ Have flask; will travel.
There are some inovative ideas here but Its a high risk strategy.
Trinityless system can so easily mean everyone is pretty much the same role: Dps / a little healing / take a turn taking damage and in my opinion thats a pile of poo. Everyone needs a meaningfull role of there own, a specialism something they bring to the team and really shine at.
To move on from the trinity we need some more technology, We need solid colision detection ie you cant move through me because i am physically blocking you, We need positional attacks (dont turn you back on me or your as good as dead) and we need npcs who can make a realistic assesmment of the players strategy and come up with a reasonable counter.
GW2 failed in this regard, mobs just behaved in a different but predictable way, everyone played ping pong and tried not to get hit but ultimatly the mobs were dumb and compensated for this with huge HP pools and frankly ridiculous damage in alot of instances. It wasnt a game of tactics it was a game of learning how to manipulate the new UI.
Lastly only 8 abilities up at one time? Sceptical . EQ1 and EQ2 always had depth lots of options (i currently run 6-8 hotbars with 12 icons each for EQ2 and use a large % of that in a meaningful way each night. 8 sounds like its going to really limit my tactical choice. What concerns me if this sounds like the illusion of choice leap or teleport both sound like movement powers that will get you into combat and move you roughly the same distance. There could be 50 other versions of this and you will need to slot one so button 5 move into combat with a few marginal variations, butons 1-4 swing you weapon in a variety of ways. This doesnt sound like enough to me.
I hope they have some way to easly swap between character configurations of classes. I'd like to beable to save several ablities and weapon sets. I'd like to access the saved config I'd like to go to instead of undressing and re-dressing every time.
8 skill buttons? out of combat class changing? no trinity? instances everywhere? .... that's about all I need to know to avoid EQN. TSW & GW2 showcased well enough how these things dumb down the game experience, community emergence.
Instances took away the Massive. Removing trinity and "everyone is everything" takes away the Multiplayer and effectively kills the RP. All thats is left is Online Game, and with only 8 buttons and micro-fuc-in-transactions it's starting to sound more like Online Arcade Game.
Please remove EQN from MMORPG.com
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then WoW - Online since launch - and now back again. EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on.. WHO - Online 08-10 LOTR-O - Online 06-08 Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam If we're going to talk realism nothing you're asking for is real either. If someone were shooting at me and there was a guy in front of me trying to hit me, I wouldn't ignore one and try to take on the other at all. I'd run to get help or take cover. Switching who the bad guy decides to respond to doesn't make it any more realistic, it just changes who his focus is. The fact he focuses on just one person and does nothing to defend himself is what is unrealistic.
I only brought it up to show how impractical it is to even try to utilize real life in comparison to MMORPG systems. And as you also pointed out, it doesn't work given in other "reality" based reactions/scenarios what have you.
I'm ultimately arguing against the trinity merely based on the fact that it does nothing interesting, the group gameplay is for the most part static and its very limiting on providing as many dynamic scenarios.
And to retort a little bit, when the scenario changes or you get within range of a more preferred target, your goals/objectives/targets tend to fluctuate as well or it should naturally. In the trinity all that matters is that the tank keeps his threat above everyone else's and in 90% of group combats, the battlefield will never change given the former. Its an obviously outdated and dull mechanic.
8 skill buttons? out of combat class changing? no trinity? instances everywhere? .... that's about all I need to know to avoid EQN. TSW & GW2 showcased well enough how these things dumb down the game experience, community emergence.
Instances took away the Massive. Removing trinity and "everyone is everything" takes away the Multiplayer and effectively kills the RP. All thats is left is Online Game, and with only 8 buttons and micro-fuc-in-transactions it's starting to sound more like Online Arcade Game.
Please remove EQN from MMORPG.com
1) Amount of skill buttons does not remove from the fun of the game when properly implemented.
2) There is a trinity, but you are not pigeonholed into following an exact build. You could be a tank that maintains hate through crowd control, dps, avoidance and positioning, instead of the meat-shield that shouts insults.
3) This is a non-instanced game, completely. Dungeons are layered, and if you bust a whole while in a dungeons, you might end up in a different dungeon, with harder mobs, and bigger rewards. This nests upon itself as well.
Finally, what is so wrong about redoing your skill-sets before a battle? It involves strategy, instead of: "Let me use the exact same rotation I used before and hope this thing dies before I do." Being able to switch skillsets between battles is a huge boon to strategists, and I can see some dungeons being really fun because of this. ***Lets all switch to wizard spec and destroy the ground around that big bunch of gnolls, then nuke them while they try to get out***
The game it self sounds and look to become big, but there class still have not freedom at max that is a same. In cases you will have to re-roll to do/use different equpment and stuff. Not that is a same
Originally posted by BillMurphy From what I can gather about the trinity, is at least in a sense it'll still be there. Just not as heavily as say, EQ1. You can still play a tank, a healer, etc. They're just not going to pigeonhole you into those roles as much. I might be wrong, but that's how I'm taking the information on how classes work. You get access to all the skills of every class, and you can effectively choose your own role at any given time.
You're wrong and they said as much. They didn't say "we'll have Trinity, but you can play multiple parts of the trinity (ala Rift)" they said "there's no dedicated healing and we won't use the taunt mechanic".
actually at the EQN Debut Streaming they said exactly that "Trinity is there"
Yes, taken out of context they said all sorts of things. When they said "There will be no pure support classes", later... um, err. what? Just because they name three classes Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter, that doesn't mean they have the "Holy Trinity".
I'm not a fan of the GW2 system. Sure, give me some weapons and class skills but give me more skills than 8 options and let me pick and choose what 8 I want to use. For example, I have a 2h axe and am a warrior. Give me something like 10 skills for the ax and 10 for the class and let me choose which 4 skills for the axe to use and which 4 for the class to use. That way their is some real diversity of play.
Far to much like GW2...i HATE that there is no holy trinity it turns a group situation from "i hope the tank holds the aggro while i'm smashing its face it oh god hes getting low wheres the healer!!".....into 5 people.....trying to kill something, may as well just be solo it doesn't feel like a group effort to me and takes away ALOT about the game (played GW2 and NeverWinter to max) I'd far soon wait 15 minutes if we are unable to find a healer
Far to much like GW2...i HATE that there is no holy trinity it turns a group situation from "i hope the tank holds the aggro while i'm smashing its face it oh god hes getting low wheres the healer!!".....into 5 people.....trying to kill something, may as well just be solo it doesn't feel like a group effort to me and takes away ALOT about the game (played GW2 and NeverWinter to max) I'd far soon wait 15 minutes if we are unable to find a healer
Found this to be overall disapointing
Color me optimistic.. but SoE has an extremely good track record of putting together not only compelling group play, but solid raiding and raid strategies.
With this new system, I have good money its simply that strategies(both group and raid) are going to simply change in response to the new system with tools provided in the form of abilities to bring the fight under control(which must be actively maintained), and not go away like you seem to be expecting from poor implementations in other games.
I do not see job specializations suddenly vanishing.
Tank, Healing, CC, and Debuff in combination with everyone being able to appropriately DPS while doing their jobs. Obviously not everyone can use a defensive build in group, or a heal build in group, so you likely will need to keep multiple builds at the ready depending on which your group may need.
I actually like this more active style of game play a lot (maybe I'm the only one). The thing about EverQuest and EverQuest 2, having done multiple hundreds of hours of end game in both of them (i.e. raided) is that it generally went one of two ways.
Once you had a reputation on the server as being competent, you would log in and immediately be inundated with requests "hey, come group with us -- help us do <x>." Where <x> is something you've helped a thousand other people with in the last three days. Oh I need to kill Vox for a white dragon scale, can you come kill her with me -- I need eight more marks of repetition from generic Odus dungeon 12, can you come run through a zone you can solo with me so I can get my marks of repetition to get mediocre item? Hey, Fred needs boots -- lets go do Tox Mound again and maybe this time, they'll drop this time, we've only been farming the zone 6 months.
The other way it goes is you either have a bad reputation, or are on a new alt where nobody knows you, and so you spend hours looking for group, days looking for a tank, and months looking for a healer. =P
I see this as potentially improving both those situations.
I'm glad they may be opening the game up to more solo capabilities. I don't always have the ability to group up, be it time constraints or the fact that I have two young children who I have to ninja AFK to take care of. However, a lot of you are forgetting that they may be doing away with the need for tanks and healers, but Rallying Calls will NEED to be a community effort. They're trying to find new ways of making the player base come together, and I'm all for it. I also love the idea of tanking with the environment. If the casters put walls of rocks up that funnel the monsters to me, I am the tank whether I taunt or not. And if the walls get broken...well, now casters need to watch their environment, not their DPS meter.
Comments
Explain to me which race in history didn't have a basic warrior?
A warrior is a fighter specializing in wars. If you can name me one civilization that never had a war, then that civilization never had warriors.
It's not about keeping "older and younger ends of the player base from getting scared and confused"... its to keep those with burnt out gamer needs from corrupting what games should be. If you are playing a Tolkien style game with elves, dwarves, arches and wizards, then having a warrior class is inevitable. It would be dumb to think that they could have wars, and not a single one of them would think: "O look, a big piece of wood, with a sharp bit at the end, maybe if I hit someone on the head hard enough, it would cause a boo boo..." The moment that plank of wood is held and someone is smacked with it in an act of war... that person became a warrior.
I don't see how they can do it, though. The problem was never the Trinity, the problem was limited roles and equipment. That's been fixed even in WoW for years now. It's inconceivable that players aren't able to find tanks or healers in modern MMOs between multi-specs and dungeon finders.
I love when people claim that something isn't innovative. As if every game needs a new, never-before-seen combat system in order to be good. Then you ask that person what they would suggest, and they are speechless.
It's easy to make a statement like that, but much harder to actually come up with something yourself.
I personally like the system that they rolled out for us to see. Abilities are tied to weapons, which are locked for customization. As are the types of armors that you can wear with any given class. The class abilities though, are where your character takes shape. And according to the panels, only one of several (Not being revealed) ways in which you can customize your abilities. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about the idea to be able to use any spell or ability from any class to create the ultimate hybrid. Now it's actually being given to us, and that is awesome to me. It will be fun to see the types of combinations that everyone can come up with. Every time you obtain a new class, you'll have several new abilities to play with, along with weapon sets and armor configurations. It will be like leveling up and visiting a class trainer. And your armor and weapons are no longer just pixels with stats tied to them. They will actually alter your spells and skills, which opens up a whole new customization opportunity.
And remember, they said that there are other ways to customize things that they aren't revealing yet. I really think the character building system in this game has a lot of promise. Can it be balanced? Good luck with that. But, I love the choices that they are giving players. How many games have done this in the past ten years? Not many.
If we're going to talk realism nothing you're asking for is real either. If someone were shooting at me and there was a guy in front of me trying to hit me, I wouldn't ignore one and try to take on the other at all. I'd run to get help or take cover. Switching who the bad guy decides to respond to doesn't make it any more realistic, it just changes who his focus is. The fact he focuses on just one person and does nothing to defend himself is what is unrealistic.
___________________________
Have flask; will travel.
There are some inovative ideas here but Its a high risk strategy.
Trinityless system can so easily mean everyone is pretty much the same role: Dps / a little healing / take a turn taking damage and in my opinion thats a pile of poo. Everyone needs a meaningfull role of there own, a specialism something they bring to the team and really shine at.
To move on from the trinity we need some more technology, We need solid colision detection ie you cant move through me because i am physically blocking you, We need positional attacks (dont turn you back on me or your as good as dead) and we need npcs who can make a realistic assesmment of the players strategy and come up with a reasonable counter.
GW2 failed in this regard, mobs just behaved in a different but predictable way, everyone played ping pong and tried not to get hit but ultimatly the mobs were dumb and compensated for this with huge HP pools and frankly ridiculous damage in alot of instances. It wasnt a game of tactics it was a game of learning how to manipulate the new UI.
Lastly only 8 abilities up at one time? Sceptical . EQ1 and EQ2 always had depth lots of options (i currently run 6-8 hotbars with 12 icons each for EQ2 and use a large % of that in a meaningful way each night. 8 sounds like its going to really limit my tactical choice. What concerns me if this sounds like the illusion of choice leap or teleport both sound like movement powers that will get you into combat and move you roughly the same distance. There could be 50 other versions of this and you will need to slot one so button 5 move into combat with a few marginal variations, butons 1-4 swing you weapon in a variety of ways. This doesnt sound like enough to me.
Will there be any PVP in EQN?
I haven't heard anything about it, but that two-handed, teleporting whirlwind caster slayer sure has a ring of pvpness to it!!
Cunfushus says "Only through wasting time do we realize that time should not be wasted."
8 skill buttons? out of combat class changing? no trinity? instances everywhere? .... that's about all I need to know to avoid EQN. TSW & GW2 showcased well enough how these things dumb down the game experience, community emergence.
Instances took away the Massive. Removing trinity and "everyone is everything" takes away the Multiplayer and effectively kills the RP. All thats is left is Online Game, and with only 8 buttons and micro-fuc-in-transactions it's starting to sound more like Online Arcade Game.
Please remove EQN from MMORPG.com
DAoC - 00-06 - And every now and then
WoW - Online since launch - and now back again.
EVE - Online since 07 - and still on, and on, and on..
WHO - Online 08-10
LOTR-O - Online 06-08
Also played : Asherons Call, EverQuest, EQ2, Dungeons & Dragons, Cabal, Dark & Light, GW, GW2, LA2, Ryzom, Shaiya, SWG, Allods, Forsaken World, ArcheAge, Secret World, Darkfall, Rift, ESO, Tera.
I only brought it up to show how impractical it is to even try to utilize real life in comparison to MMORPG systems. And as you also pointed out, it doesn't work given in other "reality" based reactions/scenarios what have you.
I'm ultimately arguing against the trinity merely based on the fact that it does nothing interesting, the group gameplay is for the most part static and its very limiting on providing as many dynamic scenarios.
And to retort a little bit, when the scenario changes or you get within range of a more preferred target, your goals/objectives/targets tend to fluctuate as well or it should naturally. In the trinity all that matters is that the tank keeps his threat above everyone else's and in 90% of group combats, the battlefield will never change given the former. Its an obviously outdated and dull mechanic.
1) Amount of skill buttons does not remove from the fun of the game when properly implemented.
2) There is a trinity, but you are not pigeonholed into following an exact build. You could be a tank that maintains hate through crowd control, dps, avoidance and positioning, instead of the meat-shield that shouts insults.
3) This is a non-instanced game, completely. Dungeons are layered, and if you bust a whole while in a dungeons, you might end up in a different dungeon, with harder mobs, and bigger rewards. This nests upon itself as well.
Finally, what is so wrong about redoing your skill-sets before a battle? It involves strategy, instead of: "Let me use the exact same rotation I used before and hope this thing dies before I do." Being able to switch skillsets between battles is a huge boon to strategists, and I can see some dungeons being really fun because of this. ***Lets all switch to wizard spec and destroy the ground around that big bunch of gnolls, then nuke them while they try to get out***
Yes, taken out of context they said all sorts of things. When they said "There will be no pure support classes", later... um, err. what? Just because they name three classes Warrior/Cleric/Enchanter, that doesn't mean they have the "Holy Trinity".
NOT happy with this at all
Far to much like GW2...i HATE that there is no holy trinity it turns a group situation from "i hope the tank holds the aggro while i'm smashing its face it oh god hes getting low wheres the healer!!".....into 5 people.....trying to kill something, may as well just be solo it doesn't feel like a group effort to me and takes away ALOT about the game (played GW2 and NeverWinter to max) I'd far soon wait 15 minutes if we are unable to find a healer
Found this to be overall disapointing
Color me optimistic.. but SoE has an extremely good track record of putting together not only compelling group play, but solid raiding and raid strategies.
With this new system, I have good money its simply that strategies(both group and raid) are going to simply change in response to the new system with tools provided in the form of abilities to bring the fight under control(which must be actively maintained), and not go away like you seem to be expecting from poor implementations in other games.
I do not see job specializations suddenly vanishing.
Tank, Healing, CC, and Debuff in combination with everyone being able to appropriately DPS while doing their jobs. Obviously not everyone can use a defensive build in group, or a heal build in group, so you likely will need to keep multiple builds at the ready depending on which your group may need.
I actually like this more active style of game play a lot (maybe I'm the only one). The thing about EverQuest and EverQuest 2, having done multiple hundreds of hours of end game in both of them (i.e. raided) is that it generally went one of two ways.
Once you had a reputation on the server as being competent, you would log in and immediately be inundated with requests "hey, come group with us -- help us do <x>." Where <x> is something you've helped a thousand other people with in the last three days. Oh I need to kill Vox for a white dragon scale, can you come kill her with me -- I need eight more marks of repetition from generic Odus dungeon 12, can you come run through a zone you can solo with me so I can get my marks of repetition to get mediocre item? Hey, Fred needs boots -- lets go do Tox Mound again and maybe this time, they'll drop this time, we've only been farming the zone 6 months.
The other way it goes is you either have a bad reputation, or are on a new alt where nobody knows you, and so you spend hours looking for group, days looking for a tank, and months looking for a healer. =P
I see this as potentially improving both those situations.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher