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PvErs want more advanced AI, but wouldn't that basically be PvP?

MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
in The Pub at MMORPG.COM

I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

So why do you want that? 

Philosophy of MMO Game Design

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Comments

  • VidirVidir Member UncommonPosts: 963
    No we play fantasy games to counter the premade content,when we wish to pvp then we play games where all the players want to pvp like battlefield and similar.
  • TraugarTraugar Member UncommonPosts: 183
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247

    It seems like PvE players want more challenge, not necessarily mobs that will be able to act and react as well as humans, and definitely not mobs that act like humans.

    There is also that huge leap from character skill to player skill between the two. A more challenging opponent that is still based on character skills is far more preferable to many PvE players than one that becomes more challenging due to the necessity of player skill (manual targeting, dodging and other action RPG features)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by Vidir
    No we play fantasy games to counter the premade content,when we wish to pvp then we play games where all the players want to pvp like battlefield and similar.

    That wasnt my point, I was talking about the computer AI. If its too dumb it's just a typical NPC. But if its too advanced, its skynet.

    do you really want PvE to consist of a bunch of skynet bots? It would be the same thing as PvP in theory since it would have the intelligence level of a player(human).

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • skeaserskeaser Member RarePosts: 4,205
    I play MMOs for the sense of adventure. Finding out that there's a great evil or a great treasure somewhere and working my way to it. I want the mobs to be smart but I want to feel like I'm going through a story, not standing in a field killing everyone like a maniac for no reason. The big problem I have with FFA PVP is there are no limitations that a world would have as far as punishment. 
    Sig so that badges don't eat my posts.


  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by Traugar
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  

    But if the computer sees an advantage to ganking and taking enemies by surprise, why wouldn't it do that if its advanced skynet AI?

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • KenaoshiKenaoshi Member UncommonPosts: 1,022

    Not really.

    More PVE challenge is more like "Hmm i am a huge boss, maybe i should'n let myself be tricked into this corner and stand in this player made lava field"

    @, imma get all my 10.000 guild member just to kill u".

    now: GW2 (11 80s).
    Dark Souls 2.
    future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
    "Bro, do your even fractal?"
    Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by skeaser
    I play MMOs for the sense of adventure. Finding out that there's a great evil or a great treasure somewhere and working my way to it. I want the mobs to be smart but I want to feel like I'm going through a story, not standing in a field killing everyone like a maniac for no reason. The big problem I have with FFA PVP is there are no limitations that a world would have as far as punishment. 

     

    This is about the AI. If the AI is advanced enough, wouldn't it also search out the treasure locations and guard them or ambush you to take your stuff when you die, and become more and more powerful and call allies to kill more players, and so on and so on.....

    Its doing what humans do in games. How would that kind of advanced skynet AI for PvE be different from PvP?

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 44,057
    Be careful on what you wish for. Inventing a SkyNet like gaming AI might turn out to be a very bad idea for those who want to continue their PVE winning streak.

    But I don't that's really what they want, they still want it to be easy to beat, just so the AI provides different but still easy ways to do so.

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  • wsmarwsmar Member Posts: 122
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    I wish people would stop using the words AI and mmorpg in the same sentence. It is completely misused. What EQN is planning on doing isn't AI, it is just smarter game design.

  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    Originally posted by Traugar
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  

    This.

    Even if mob AI is "like a human" it won't actually be human. Meaning, it doesn't have feelings and get off on camping your corpse for 4 hours. It won't exploit terrain and gank people while being untargetable from inside a chimney. It won't hang out next to instance portals where people are loading their screens and gank them before they can actually see the game. They won't travel to the lowbie zones and mercilessly kill low level players who are trying to level. It won't wait until you're engaged in another fight to jump you. It won't form a gigantic guild that strives to grief other people into quitting the game.

    Basically, everything dickish that you can imagine is unique to humans so far (thankfully) and AI would simply behave more realistically during combat without doing all the jerk-off things that people do.

    Now, you might say, "Well I never do those things." That's nice, but others do, which is why people hate it.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by Kenaoshi

    Not really.

    More PVE challenge is more like "Hmm i am a huge boss, maybe i should'n let myself be tricked into this corner and stand in this player made lava field"

    @, imma get all my 10.000 guild member just to kill u".

    That's more the emotions you are describing, not the actual intelligence in the fight which the AI is was suppose to mimic.

    advanced AI would also not fall for a lava trap just like an human wouldn't.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • BrialynBrialyn Member Posts: 184
    I don't understand the need pvp-ers feel in making pve-ers seem wrong.  Just because you don't understand what someone likes doesn't make that something less than, stupid, or crap. Advanced AI is not pvp. I'm pretty sure if a developer were able to come up with AI that was as good as a human they still wouldn't let it grief, corpse camp, or attack your castle at 4am in the morning when no one in your guild is online to defend it.  If they DID well they probably wouldn't have a successful game in the large scale market because pve-ers would leave quickly and pvp-ers wouldn't want to play against AI no matter how good it is. 


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  • DocBrodyDocBrody Member UncommonPosts: 1,926

    This is the STRANGE conflict PvE-only players are in. Besides every PvPer is a PvEer too.

    Opting out is really a harm for the MMO industry as we see with failing theme parks.

    MMO worlds should simply be better governed by NPCs. Create zones where PvP is not magically disabled, but punished hard by NPC interaction. Create zones where PvP is allowed.

     

    It could be all so easy and everyone could co-exist.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by wsmar
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    I wish people would stop using the words AI and mmorpg in the same sentence. It is completely misused. What EQN is planning on doing isn't AI, it is just smarter game design.

    Please explain...

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • rommellorommello Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 185
    coz pve includes monsters & giant monsters....pvp is a bunch of humans swinging around....boring...

    hallo ~_~

  • BenediktBenedikt Member UncommonPosts: 1,406
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Traugar
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  

    This.

    Even if mob AI is "like a human" it won't actually be human. Meaning, it doesn't have feelings and get off on camping your corpse for 4 hours. It won't exploit terrain and gank people while being untargetable from inside a chimney. It won't hang out next to instance portals where people are loading their screens and gank them before they can actually see the game. They won't travel to the lowbie zones and mercilessly kill low level players who are trying to level. It won't wait until you're engaged in another fight to jump you. It won't form a gigantic guild that strives to grief other people into quitting the game.

    Basically, everything dickish that you can imagine is unique to humans so far (thankfully) and AI would simply behave more realistically during combat without doing all the jerk-off things that people do.

    Now, you might say, "Well I never do those things." That's nice, but others do, which is why people hate it.

    +1

  • BadSpockBadSpock Member UncommonPosts: 7,979

    PvE is designed for the player to win.

    Sure, it may be (and hopefully is) challenging, but PvE is designed so that the player CAN win every single time if they are good enough/prepared enough etc.

    PvP, if it were perfectly balanced and you were playing against equally skilled opponents, you'd only win 50% of the time.

    Skill and preparation increase your winning %, but PvP where you win every time is poorly designed and obviously imbalanced.

     

  • cnutempcnutemp Member UncommonPosts: 230
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Traugar
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  

    This.

    Even if mob AI is "like a human" it won't actually be human. Meaning, it doesn't have feelings and get off on camping your corpse for 4 hours. It won't exploit terrain and gank people while being untargetable from inside a chimney. It won't hang out next to instance portals where people are loading their screens and gank them before they can actually see the game. They won't travel to the lowbie zones and mercilessly kill low level players who are trying to level. It won't wait until you're engaged in another fight to jump you. It won't form a gigantic guild that strives to grief other people into quitting the game.

    Basically, everything dickish that you can imagine is unique to humans so far (thankfully) and AI would simply behave more realistically during combat without doing all the jerk-off things that people do.

    Now, you might say, "Well I never do those things." That's nice, but others do, which is why people hate it.

    This pretty much demolishes the OPs argument.

    PvEers are asking for advanced AI which is different than wanting mobs from the lvl 80 zone to go to the lvl 20-30 zone and kill newbies.

     

  • free2playfree2play Member UncommonPosts: 2,043

    Quite the opposite. I keep seeing people tell me what I want but I don't ever remember asking for it.

     

    I don't want to get PWNed by AI. No, I really don't. I know how that works. If Development want me to lose, I will. I expect to win in PvE. I know, crazy huh? I do though. My only question has always been, what will I get for it? Considering most loot tables now look like a menu at a hotdog stand, I CBA to do it at all. Making it "Harder"? That's not going to help.

  • KaladinKaladin Member Posts: 468

    I believe you are missing one LARGE piece to your puzzle.  Players cannot recreate the battles against bosses.  They have different mechanics than any player can create.  If bosses consisted of playable classes, yes you would be correct.

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    And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
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  • wsmarwsmar Member Posts: 122
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by wsmar
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    I wish people would stop using the words AI and mmorpg in the same sentence. It is completely misused. What EQN is planning on doing isn't AI, it is just smarter game design.

    Please explain...

    I think the more entertaining question would be, what do you believe makes EQN "advanced AI" actually AI?

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,400
    Originally posted by Rusque
    Originally posted by Traugar
    I like PvP,  but your argument doesn't hold up.  Advanced AI even if it functions on the level of another player does not equal ganks which is the problem that most PvEers have with constant PvP.  

    This.

    Even if mob AI is "like a human" it won't actually be human. Meaning, it doesn't have feelings and get off on camping your corpse for 4 hours. It won't exploit terrain and gank people while being untargetable from inside a chimney. It won't hang out next to instance portals where people are loading their screens and gank them before they can actually see the game. They won't travel to the lowbie zones and mercilessly kill low level players who are trying to level. It won't wait until you're engaged in another fight to jump you. It won't form a gigantic guild that strives to grief other people into quitting the game.

    Basically, everything dickish that you can imagine is unique to humans so far (thankfully) and AI would simply behave more realistically during combat without doing all the jerk-off things that people do.

    Now, you might say, "Well I never do those things." That's nice, but others do, which is why people hate it.

    If it see advantages in doing that it will. No emotions makes it even more dangerous than an actual human when you think about it...skynet...

    ganking you to steal your belongings on your body each time you spawn.

    or camping you to get some kind of  skill up that makes them even more stronger or something.

    making sure you are damaged enough to prevent your smooth return to the location that they don't want you to be at.

     

    the list goes on, for reasons to camp and gank you besides emotional shitty bitchiness.

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • illorionillorion Member Posts: 467
    Originally posted by wsmar
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.

    but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?

    in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?

    but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.

    but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP. 

    So why do you want that? 

    I wish people would stop using the words AI and mmorpg in the same sentence. It is completely misused. What EQN is planning on doing isn't AI, it is just smarter game design.

    Why should we? The developers themselves have used the term "AI" multiple times when talking about this game. Using a complex but also simple and effective "Tagging" system.

    This game is obviously going to cater to casuals... so i seriously doubt SOE is going to take advantage of the AI to put anything  "hardcore" in the game... don't want to upset anyone. But it would be HILARIOUS if they did say... have packs of bandits that roam the map looking for loan players to gank and steal from. Using the tagging system they described it would be easy tag= likes gold, like lone players, roams in packs. 

    It would be a huge middle finger "what you dont like OWPvP thats okay we wont put it in.... well just make some NPC's that do that for you ^_^

    But that would be too "frustrating" and would "ruin the little bit of game time I have" i mean.... i should be able to play every game on the market without any time investment at all. Why would I want any real sense of accomplishment from even one game... i would rather just sharply blow air through my nose once in a while when i play them... like watching television.  

    "Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"

  • hayes303hayes303 Member UncommonPosts: 431

    I don't really care if the AIs get more advanced or not, nor do most of the people I know. The main thing PVERs want in my opinion is more immersive worlds, not harder baddies. 

    But that wouldn't really justify your attempt to point out the gameplay style you enjoy is the right one and everyone who disagrees is wrong.

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