Originally posted by skeaser I play MMOs for the sense of adventure. Finding out that there's a great evil or a great treasure somewhere and working my way to it. I want the mobs to be smart but I want to feel like I'm going through a story, not standing in a field killing everyone like a maniac for no reason. The big problem I have with FFA PVP is there are no limitations that a world would have as far as punishment.
This is about the AI. If the AI is advanced enough, wouldn't it also search out the treasure locations and guard them or ambush you to take your stuff when you die, and become more and more powerful and call allies to kill more players, and so on and so on.....
Its doing what humans do in games. How would that kind of advanced skynet AI for PvE be different from PvP?
That advanced AI you speak of does not excist, advanced AI doesn't take over human behaviour completely in detail, imagine a that advance AI who is telling it doesn't want to expand outside of the game with such high intelligence.
So this topic should take a more realistic way where the question has already been aswered as it to being more challenging and no "gank"
I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.
but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?
in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?
but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.
but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP.
So why do you want that?
I wish people would stop using the words AI and mmorpg in the same sentence. It is completely misused. What EQN is planning on doing isn't AI, it is just smarter game design.
Why should we? The developers themselves have used the term "AI" multiple times when talking about this game. Using a complex but also simple and effective "Tagging" system.
This game is obviously going to cater to casuals... so i seriously doubt SOE is going to take advantage of the AI to put anything "hardcore" in the game... don't want to upset anyone. But it would be HILARIOUS if they did say... have packs of bandits that roam the map looking for loan players to gank and steal from. Using the tagging system they described it would be easy tag= likes gold, like lone players, roams in packs.
It would be a huge middle finger "what you dont like OWPvP thats okay we wont put it in.... well just make some NPC's that do that for you ^_^
But that would be too "frustrating" and would "ruin the little bit of game time I have" i mean.... i should be able to play every game on the market without any time investment at all. Why would I want any real sense of accomplishment from even one game... i would rather just sharply blow air through my nose once in a while when i play them... like watching television.
You don't get it. I guarantee you that they are in no way using Artificial Intelligence in their game. That has never happened in any game before this. They are calling an interesting feature with more options than other games artificial intelligence. Specifically if you talk about the Orc's choosing where they want to go based on like and dislikes. They don't actually like or dislike anything. A function takes values or inputs from the in game world, and based on the parameters they've set or what the values mean, the orc then goes to a location. It cannot go to any location outside of what is pre-defined. The Orc's are not learning what they like and dislike, they are already programmed that way. Making an Orc look "smarter" does not equate to the word artificial intelligence. That doesn't make it bad, it makes it smart game design. Actually implementing AI into an MMO would be very hard, and would probably have a lot of negative consequences on the game.
We saw this with GW2's dynamic events. They really weren't dynamic. They were the same events over and over again.
You seem to be focused on the machine learning branch of AI. There are many other branches of artificial intelligence.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
Nope. The game with the most consequence is D3, not a full loot ow pvp game. Heck, it is not even a MMO.
Fantastic. Another semantics-based word battle with a non-pvp player.
I said TYPICALLY. TYPICALLY full loot ow pvp games have the most consequences. I didn't say the game with the most consequences had full loot ow pvp. Also it depends on what you mean by consequences. People can max characters very quickly in D3. It's very feasible that losing a keep deed in DFUW is a much bigger consequence than losing your entire character in hardcore mode in D3. Also you don't HAVE to play on hardcore if you don't want to.
I see this major push lately for High Advanced AI for NPC.
but if the NPC get too advanced wouldn't they function like a real human?
in other words, PLAYER VS PLAYER,,,,,,,?
but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.
but advanced AI that mimics actual intelligence would be just that same thing. Constant PvP.
So why do you want that?
I suppose you could severely stretch your logic to think it's basically PvP. However, you're overlooking one key difference.
Player vs. Player = players are competing against each other directly. This is what most PvErs object to. They want to fight with people, not against them.
This isn't the same thing as not wanting realistic combat. Yes, once AI gets advanced enough, it will start to feel more like PvP combat, but you'll still be fighting with people instead of against them. This may seem like a minor distinction, but it really isn't. Consider this.
- In an actual PvP experience things have to be balanced. Since both sides are paying customers you can't have one side severely outmatched without it harming the game. People don't like to feel cheated out of a win, and will often quit if it happens too many times.
- In PvE, even with life-like AI (which doesn't quite exist yet), you are still free to include a host of other mechanics & scenarios that aren't inherently fair. Furthermore, you can tweak intelligence to go along w/ monster lvl. The elites have superb AI, and dodge / counter your attacks, requiring you to be smarter to defeat them. The trash mobs can have weaker AI, and often forget to dodge / block attacks or exploit weaknesses in your playstyle. This doesn't even get into secondary mechanics like siege, using the environments to aid in a fight, etc. to help tip the odds in your favor.
*** That said, it's unclear as to whether such advanced AI will really catch on. No offense, but the average gamer does not seem to enjoy being challenged anymore (no matter what they claim otherwise), nor do they seem to generally enjoy challenges that require you to think, or outsmart your opponents. We're already seeing this in games with limited AI (i.e. GW2), as well as in other games. Most gamers seem to prefer being handed a feeling of power, over taking it upon themselves to actually earn it.
People can max characters very quickly in D3. It's very feasible that losing a keep deed in DFUW is a much bigger consequence than losing your entire character in hardcore mode in D3. Also you don't HAVE to play on hardcore if you don't want to.
You know how many hours it took to max paragon levels in D3? It took me hundred of hours ... over months ... just in soft-core. You lost months of playing if you lose a character like that.
In fact, go try it. I will make you a bet. You cannot have a paragon 100 level hard core character (take any class) in a month.
And yes, you don't have to play on hard core. That is the beauty of the game. It can have the most consequences of any game, but you also have a choice if that is not your thing.
Do you think D3 will be this ultraly successful (12M+ boxes sold!) if hardcore is mandatory?
Originally posted by hayes303I don't really care if the AIs get more advanced or not, nor do most of the people I know. The main thing PVERs want in my opinion is more immersive worlds, not harder baddies. But that wouldn't really justify your attempt to point out the gameplay style you enjoy is the right one and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
Thats the thing though... most of them don't want "immersive worlds". Immersions means realistic... and a realistic fantasy world is a very dangerous place. An immersive world would be one where the forest may have plenty of easy deers and rabbits to kill... but it also has the occasional tough as bear or pack of bandits that will kill you. PvE'rs dont want that. Its like when fat people go to the doctor with all these health complaints and the doctor is like "well you need to exercise and eat better" and they say "but but.... thats harddddddd, im paying you money, i expect you to fix it for me". You want a more immersive world then it has to be a dangerous one where going it alone is not a smart idea especially at lower levels. One where NPC mobs dont just suddenly decide to stop chasing you after 10 feet even though you are 1 hit from death. One where an AI can and will have every reason to wait until you are alone or injured to come after you. Cause thats whats real and immersive.So no... PvErs dont want a more immersive world... they just want a prettier shinier easy mode.
Immersion does not mean realism. It's simply a state of mind where the player has focused all their attention on the game they are playing*, and have momentarily forgotten about the world around them. Players in games do not act realistic because if they did, they would show a lot more restraint. Because that's what happens in the real world. People show restraint, and not just because there are consequences for things like murder. They certainly don't act in a manner consistent with the world's being played in. That would be the advantage of intelligent AI versus human players. The AI is going to act in a manner consistent with the world being played in, increasing immersion, while players will not. You don't seem to know what PvE players want. You've certainly included your own views of what they want, but I would say you're just wrong. * Or movie they are watching, book they are reading or even chore they are doing around the house.
But that's the thing. It's based on the setting of the game. In medieval times you had wild killer packs that would kill and steal in large packs all over the land. There was more ways to escape capture back then. So what makes that different in the game? Only big key difference is the population ratio of these sick people to the more sane people. That's an imbalance in the games compared to the real world.
In games like Darkfall, Xyson and Mortal Online where there is no established society, no "in game" order, then it makes sense that people would run amok. In most games though, there is an established society, a sense of order. Eve, WoW, TSW and GW2 all have an established order. In those games, the inhabitants would have seen what not fighting accomplishes. Things like beer, a steady supply of food and not having to sleeping the rain among them. There would be an expectation of restraint on the part of other people, not just because of getting in trouble.
With OW PvP turned on, that restraint is thrown out the window, regardless of the state of the virtual world. In medieval England, it was possible for two merchants to pass each other on a horse trail without drawing swords and slowly edging around each other. It happened a lot in fact. Otherwise merchants would have a hard time existing instead of getting rich.
Intelligent AI would act in a manner consistent with the world, when players who are allowed OW PvP would not. That is, unless the worlds are setup like they are in Darkfall, Mortal Online or Xyson where there is no established order. In regards to EQN, which is going to have more intelligent AI, there is an established order, and occupants of that world would have an expectation of restraint on the part of inhabitants.
**
Even players not engaging in OW PvP are going to behave in a manner not consistent with the world, but it's easier to ignore people if they aren't actively killing you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
More PVE challenge is more like "Hmm i am a huge boss, maybe i should'n let myself be tricked into this corner and stand in this player made lava field"
@, imma get all my 10.000 guild member just to kill u".
I remember long ago being killed in Everquest (by an NPC) and after my death the computer AI said some pretty insulting things.
There's a difference between a lore based insult and an insult from a 13 year old...
Originally posted by Holophonist
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
Which is fine, but this discussion is about AI, not risk.
The OP is trying to merge AI and risk for some reason, but reality is, you can make AI in WoW super smart but there's still little risk due to how the death management system works.
I dont understand...
"Lore" base insults and "online" insults are in the same category are they not? Some 13 year old refrencing your mom in an online game really upsets people that much? I could understand if they were in your face and they actually knew your mom...
More PVE challenge is more like "Hmm i am a huge boss, maybe i should'n let myself be tricked into this corner and stand in this player made lava field"
@, imma get all my 10.000 guild member just to kill u".
I remember long ago being killed in Everquest (by an NPC) and after my death the computer AI said some pretty insulting things.
There's a difference between a lore based insult and an insult from a 13 year old...
Yes, big difference. The computer uses readable sentences.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
People can max characters very quickly in D3. It's very feasible that losing a keep deed in DFUW is a much bigger consequence than losing your entire character in hardcore mode in D3. Also you don't HAVE to play on hardcore if you don't want to.
You know how many hours it took to max paragon levels in D3? It took me hundred of hours ... over months ... just in soft-core. You lost months of playing if you lose a character like that.
And keeps sold for thousands of $ at one point.
In fact, go try it. I will make you a bet. You cannot have a paragon 100 level hard core character (take any class) in a month.
I never said I could. This doesn't mean anything.
And yes, you don't have to play on hard core. That is the beauty of the game. It can have the most consequences of any game, but you also have a choice if that is not your thing.
Do you think D3 will be this ultraly successful (12M+ boxes sold!) if hardcore is mandatory?
So because the game put an option in to risk everything, that means it has the most consequences? I can delete my character in WoW if I chose, does that mean WoW has the most consequences?
And why are you literally not responding to the most important parts of my posts? It's like you're just picking out the meaningless stuff that you think you can argue with. I said TYPICALLY ow pvp full loot games have more consequences than games that don't. Are you gonna argue with what I actually said? Because I'm not interested in a long drawn out bunny trail of an argument with you based on nebulous definitions of words.
More PVE challenge is more like "Hmm i am a huge boss, maybe i should'n let myself be tricked into this corner and stand in this player made lava field"
@, imma get all my 10.000 guild member just to kill u".
I remember long ago being killed in Everquest (by an NPC) and after my death the computer AI said some pretty insulting things.
There's a difference between a lore based insult and an insult from a 13 year old...
Originally posted by Holophonist
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
Which is fine, but this discussion is about AI, not risk.
The OP is trying to merge AI and risk for some reason, but reality is, you can make AI in WoW super smart but there's still little risk due to how the death management system works.
I dont understand...
"Lore" base insults and "online" insults are in the same category are they not? Some 13 year old refrencing your mom in an online game really upsets people that much? I could understand if they were in your face and they actually knew your mom...
Also most games have ignore options. The non-pvp crowd doesn't like the cutthroat, competitive and unforgiving nature of ow pvp games. That's it.
No thanks, PVP is hardly EVER more tactical nor more in-depth, imo.
PVP always ends up being hit and run style fighting, hardly any head to head (One shall stand, One shall fall!) type fights I like.
I do want a "smarter" PVE enemy, which honestly, simply a system which takes small details into consideration and changes accordingly. Its much MUCH easier said, than done.
Does a robotic AI player still teabag his opponents?
If so, I'm pretty sure HM Arthas enjoyed the whole raid sexually many, many times.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Think of every MMO that has not "bombed" in some form or another in the past like... 20 years.
UO - OWPVP
EQ - OWPVP
WoW- OWPVP
EvE - OWPVP
My point is the Major MMOs that are "classics" had OWPVP
Since then it has been a huge stream of casual PvE with PvP tacked on the side and they have all bombed again and again GW2 is doing pretty well but they put alot of work into their game... but i lost interest because, again, no OWPvP. So that satisfaction of finally being strong enough to fight back against ganking or the thrill of randomly spotting "the enemy" and feeling that "red is dead" rush just isnt there....
I mean... my dad got to 80 and beat the last dungeon in that game and hes is 50 and plays mostly friggin zuma on facebook and never even used the hotkeys... he just clicked on his abilities.... thats how easy that game is. And thats how easy EQN will be... cause thats what gamers think they want... cause pvp is a bitter medicine that no one wants to swallow
So every EQ server had open world pvp?
Every WoW server had open world pvp?
EVE has consistent open world pvp "rules" throughout its entire Universe?
I wonder if one could name games that had open world pvp but still "bombed" (depending on your defintiion).
And Lineage 2, great game it was/is, had open world pvp and it didn't do so well here in the west.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If I wanted to play with AI I would be playing Solo RPG games.
I play MMOs because I want to play, cooperate and/or compete with other players, in the fantastic virtual world.
There can be AI and NPC's of course but as a Supportive role as a "third party", representing the fauna, Realistic (animals) or Fantastic (Dragons etc), as well as some minor entities, races inhabitants etc of this Virtual fantastic World.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
but I was under the impression that PvErs don't like a heavy dose of PvP in their face all the time.
where did you get that impression? Have you a source or is it just what you think the way things should be?
Well, in fairness shouldn't you reference the numerous pvp vs pve discussions on these forums? I would say, shooting from the hip, that is at least a decent amount of evidence among this forum's participants that those who express that they prefer pve also state that they don't like having pvp in their face.
These discussions go on all the time. However, it is true that saying "pve'ers" is rather a blanket statement.Then again, if one likes pve and pvp would they really be referred to as "pve'ers"?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?
also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by illorionWell think about it...Think of every MMO that has not "bombed" in some form or another in the past like... 20 years.UO - OWPVPEQ - OWPVPWoW- OWPVPEvE - OWPVPMy point is the Major MMOs that are "classics" had OWPVPSince then it has been a huge stream of casual PvE with PvP tacked on the side and they have all bombed again and again GW2 is doing pretty well but they put alot of work into their game... but i lost interest because, again, no OWPvP. So that satisfaction of finally being strong enough to fight back against ganking or the thrill of randomly spotting "the enemy" and feeling that "red is dead" rush just isnt there.... I mean... my dad got to 80 and beat the last dungeon in that game and hes is 50 and plays mostly friggin zuma on facebook and never even used the hotkeys... he just clicked on his abilities.... thats how easy that game is. And thats how easy EQN will be... cause thats what gamers think they want... cause pvp is a bitter medicine that no one wants to swallow
So every EQ server had open world pvp?
Every WoW server had open world pvp?
EVE has consistent open world pvp "rules" throughout its entire Universe?
I wonder if one could name games that had open world pvp but still "bombed" (depending on your defintiion).
And Lineage 2, great game it was/is, had open world pvp and it didn't do so well here in the west.
UO's open world PvP was quickly abandoned as soon as other options were available. Same thing happened to WoW. Eve did not drop OW PvP, but they did create High Sec space, which gives players a choice in how and when they PvP. I have no idea about EQ.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Personally, I don't want AI to be more challenging, I want it to be more interesting.
However, my aversion to PvP is It's not about me, it's about the relationship between me and another human being. Equating an AI with a human being just because it produces similar output is missing the point.
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?
also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.
This is a very fair and honest reply.
I suppose it comes down to really personal preference of what constitutes fun. For me it is the opposite, if the game does not have some risk, I become bored, I am not entertained, I do not have fun nor relaxation.
i will not speak of old school mmos with which I started playing the genre, but lets take something more recent, WoW for instance, many played in PVE servers, I could never play in them, I chose the PvP servers. And it happened many times that as I was leveling (played first in Vanilla) a 60 would come allong and one shot me (and trust me I returned the favor to these characters when I hit 60 myself). But many other times it was more or less equal levels and during these PvP engagements in the Open world the rush of adrenaline and the excitement they generated gave me fun enough to continue the pve without getting bored.
later on at 60 I focused more on the PvP and reached rank 14, I also did the major raids 40 mans at the time. At least once each to explore that facet of the game. But I could never repeat them night after night like others. Once or twice was enough for the sake of the experience the initial challenge the lore etc.
But you see in vanilla you could actually (with small tweaks and preparation) do the raids with either epic pve or epic pvp gear. For me the raids were a bit of respite from the ongoing PvP I engaged in 90% of my time in the game. And I did not do this alone, all my guild did the same. We moved on when the game further segregated gear and one had to do engage in specific activities in order to participate further in them. (you had to have 2 sets of gear).
But I digress I am moving off tpic here. The point is that for me if there is no Risk the world is not imerssive, it is artificial and I do not have a sense of Freedom or the sense of playing the role of a character living in it, because it is fake.
Players make the already artificial (virtual world) alive and decision we take are in relation to the decisions of other real people like in real life, NPCs cannot o this for me because they are artificial as well.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
UO's open world PvP was quickly abandoned as soon as other options were available. Same thing happened to WoW. Eve did not drop OW PvP, but they did create High Sec space, which gives players a choice in how and when they PvP. I have no idea about EQ.
This is not intirelly accurate.
UO's Open PVP world gave the illusion that it was abandoned.
UO's open world flourished for 3 years, its success contributed to the creation of EQ. Then the original team including Richard Garriot left the project.
When EQ came out it was successful, and the new UO'
s administration decided for business reasons to implement Trammel. At that point UO got also an influx of new players who now started in Trammel, accustomed from the get go to a PVE world. At the same time many of the then VETS simply quit UO and moved on to seek other games which had Open world PvP, many of which went to Shadowbane and EVE, and AC
The new players never sought to populate the Open PvP world, they were educated to be affraid of it from the start. This gave the illusion that people in droves moved from Felucca to Trammel, but that was not the case in reality.
EVE online was always setup the way it is with the core Systems of the Empires being non Open PvP and the outer Systems being open for grabs and full PvP so players can build their own Empires and strive to keep them engage in political intreague, trade or warfare.
Anyways moving off topic :P
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?
Well the idea is that the loot/xp/whatever you do end up with is more satisfying. Also it adds an element of unknown to the equation. I don't want to go grind out harvesting or farming mobs knowing exactly what my yield will be and exactly what's going to happen.
also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.
The flipside of that would be that for a lot of us that makes the game more boring. It's akin to the new trend in single player FPS. Oh what's that, you died? It's ok... you'll just auto-spawn roughly 10 seconds earlier. They make games like that in an attempt to make them more action-packed and more "fun" but really for a lot of people it just makes it that much more boring.
It's more like we think you don't like risk. We think in general a non-pvp player (not gonna call you a pve player because I like pve as well, I just also want my game to have pvp as an integral part) would be more turned off by a game that has serious consequences to death. Just so happens that full loot ow pvp games typically have the most consequences.
actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?
also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.
This is a very fair and honest reply.
I suppose it comes down to really personal preference of what constitutes fun. For me it is the opposite, if the game does not have some risk, I become bored, I am not entertained, I do not have fun nor relaxation.
i will not speak of old school mmos with which I started playing the genre, but lets take something more recent, WoW for instance, many played in PVE servers, I could never play in them, I chose the PvP servers. And it happened many times that as I was leveling (played first in Vanilla) a 60 would come allong and one shot me. But many other times it was more or less equal levels and during these PvP engagements in the Open world the rush of adrenaline and the excitement they generated gave me fun enough to continue the pve without getting bored.
later on at 60 I focused more on the PvP and reached rank 14, I also did the major raids 40 mans at the time. At least once each to explore that facet of the game. But I could never repeat them night after night like others. Once or twice was enough for the sake of the experience the initial challenge the lore etc.
But you see in vanilla you could actually (with small tweaks and preparation) do the raids with either epic pve or epic pvp gear. For me the raids were a bit of respite from the ongoing PvP I engaged in 90% of my time in the game. And I did not do this alone, all my guild did the same. We moved on when the game further segregated gear and one had to do engage in specific activities in order to participate further in them. (you had to have 2 sets of gear).
But I digress I am moving off tpic here. The point is that for me if there is no Risk the world is not imerssive, it is artificial and I do not have a sense of Freedom or the sense of playing the role of a character living in it, because it is fake.
Players make the already artificial (virtual world) alive and decision we take are in relation to the decisions of other real people like in real life, NPCs cannot o this for me because they are artificial as well.
well actually, even tho i am a pveer, i dont do raids at all i was a raid leader of our guild in wow, but already before bc i suddenly realised i am logging to go to raid even tho i dont feel like it, just because i more or less "have to". it felt more like second job then playing a game, so i did quit raiding and never regreted it
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That advanced AI you speak of does not excist, advanced AI doesn't take over human behaviour completely in detail, imagine a that advance AI who is telling it doesn't want to expand outside of the game with such high intelligence.
So this topic should take a more realistic way where the question has already been aswered as it to being more challenging and no "gank"
You seem to be focused on the machine learning branch of AI. There are many other branches of artificial intelligence.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Fantastic. Another semantics-based word battle with a non-pvp player.
I said TYPICALLY. TYPICALLY full loot ow pvp games have the most consequences. I didn't say the game with the most consequences had full loot ow pvp. Also it depends on what you mean by consequences. People can max characters very quickly in D3. It's very feasible that losing a keep deed in DFUW is a much bigger consequence than losing your entire character in hardcore mode in D3. Also you don't HAVE to play on hardcore if you don't want to.
I suppose you could severely stretch your logic to think it's basically PvP. However, you're overlooking one key difference.
Player vs. Player = players are competing against each other directly. This is what most PvErs object to. They want to fight with people, not against them.
This isn't the same thing as not wanting realistic combat. Yes, once AI gets advanced enough, it will start to feel more like PvP combat, but you'll still be fighting with people instead of against them. This may seem like a minor distinction, but it really isn't. Consider this.
- In an actual PvP experience things have to be balanced. Since both sides are paying customers you can't have one side severely outmatched without it harming the game. People don't like to feel cheated out of a win, and will often quit if it happens too many times.
- In PvE, even with life-like AI (which doesn't quite exist yet), you are still free to include a host of other mechanics & scenarios that aren't inherently fair. Furthermore, you can tweak intelligence to go along w/ monster lvl. The elites have superb AI, and dodge / counter your attacks, requiring you to be smarter to defeat them. The trash mobs can have weaker AI, and often forget to dodge / block attacks or exploit weaknesses in your playstyle. This doesn't even get into secondary mechanics like siege, using the environments to aid in a fight, etc. to help tip the odds in your favor.
*** That said, it's unclear as to whether such advanced AI will really catch on. No offense, but the average gamer does not seem to enjoy being challenged anymore (no matter what they claim otherwise), nor do they seem to generally enjoy challenges that require you to think, or outsmart your opponents. We're already seeing this in games with limited AI (i.e. GW2), as well as in other games. Most gamers seem to prefer being handed a feeling of power, over taking it upon themselves to actually earn it.
You know how many hours it took to max paragon levels in D3? It took me hundred of hours ... over months ... just in soft-core. You lost months of playing if you lose a character like that.
In fact, go try it. I will make you a bet. You cannot have a paragon 100 level hard core character (take any class) in a month.
And yes, you don't have to play on hard core. That is the beauty of the game. It can have the most consequences of any game, but you also have a choice if that is not your thing.
Do you think D3 will be this ultraly successful (12M+ boxes sold!) if hardcore is mandatory?
In games like Darkfall, Xyson and Mortal Online where there is no established society, no "in game" order, then it makes sense that people would run amok. In most games though, there is an established society, a sense of order. Eve, WoW, TSW and GW2 all have an established order. In those games, the inhabitants would have seen what not fighting accomplishes. Things like beer, a steady supply of food and not having to sleeping the rain among them. There would be an expectation of restraint on the part of other people, not just because of getting in trouble.
With OW PvP turned on, that restraint is thrown out the window, regardless of the state of the virtual world. In medieval England, it was possible for two merchants to pass each other on a horse trail without drawing swords and slowly edging around each other. It happened a lot in fact. Otherwise merchants would have a hard time existing instead of getting rich.
Intelligent AI would act in a manner consistent with the world, when players who are allowed OW PvP would not. That is, unless the worlds are setup like they are in Darkfall, Mortal Online or Xyson where there is no established order. In regards to EQN, which is going to have more intelligent AI, there is an established order, and occupants of that world would have an expectation of restraint on the part of inhabitants.
**
Even players not engaging in OW PvP are going to behave in a manner not consistent with the world, but it's easier to ignore people if they aren't actively killing you.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I dont understand...
"Lore" base insults and "online" insults are in the same category are they not? Some 13 year old refrencing your mom in an online game really upsets people that much? I could understand if they were in your face and they actually knew your mom...
Yes, big difference. The computer uses readable sentences.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
And keeps sold for thousands of $ at one point.
I never said I could. This doesn't mean anything.
So because the game put an option in to risk everything, that means it has the most consequences? I can delete my character in WoW if I chose, does that mean WoW has the most consequences?
And why are you literally not responding to the most important parts of my posts? It's like you're just picking out the meaningless stuff that you think you can argue with. I said TYPICALLY ow pvp full loot games have more consequences than games that don't. Are you gonna argue with what I actually said? Because I'm not interested in a long drawn out bunny trail of an argument with you based on nebulous definitions of words.
Also most games have ignore options. The non-pvp crowd doesn't like the cutthroat, competitive and unforgiving nature of ow pvp games. That's it.
No thanks, PVP is hardly EVER more tactical nor more in-depth, imo.
PVP always ends up being hit and run style fighting, hardly any head to head (One shall stand, One shall fall!) type fights I like.
I do want a "smarter" PVE enemy, which honestly, simply a system which takes small details into consideration and changes accordingly. Its much MUCH easier said, than done.
Almost! I follow the train of thought, but...
Does a robotic AI player still teabag his opponents?
If so, I'm pretty sure HM Arthas enjoyed the whole raid sexually many, many times.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
So every EQ server had open world pvp?
Every WoW server had open world pvp?
EVE has consistent open world pvp "rules" throughout its entire Universe?
I wonder if one could name games that had open world pvp but still "bombed" (depending on your defintiion).
And Lineage 2, great game it was/is, had open world pvp and it didn't do so well here in the west.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Way are you talking about? In real life many victimizer toy with their victims, including their corpses.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
where did you get that impression? Have you a source or is it just what you think the way things should be?
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
I prefer PvP than AI.
If I wanted to play with AI I would be playing Solo RPG games.
I play MMOs because I want to play, cooperate and/or compete with other players, in the fantastic virtual world.
There can be AI and NPC's of course but as a Supportive role as a "third party", representing the fauna, Realistic (animals) or Fantastic (Dragons etc), as well as some minor entities, races inhabitants etc of this Virtual fantastic World.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well, in fairness shouldn't you reference the numerous pvp vs pve discussions on these forums? I would say, shooting from the hip, that is at least a decent amount of evidence among this forum's participants that those who express that they prefer pve also state that they don't like having pvp in their face.
These discussions go on all the time. However, it is true that saying "pve'ers" is rather a blanket statement.Then again, if one likes pve and pvp would they really be referred to as "pve'ers"?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
actually when i think about it, this is quite true for me. i dont really want risk (aka i want minimal consequences for dying). why would i want "risk" (aka punishment) in the game i play for fun and relaxation?
also at least in my case bigger risk = less fun. why? let me give you an example. in eq2 there is currently a lot lower death penalty (xp loss) then it used to be. consequence? i am now trying to kill even mobs i have only low chance to kill and having a blast doing so, even if i die trying, while in old eq2 i was too scared to even get close to anything hard, since xp penalty was really harsh.
Every WoW server had open world pvp?
EVE has consistent open world pvp "rules" throughout its entire Universe?
I wonder if one could name games that had open world pvp but still "bombed" (depending on your defintiion).
And Lineage 2, great game it was/is, had open world pvp and it didn't do so well here in the west.
UO's open world PvP was quickly abandoned as soon as other options were available. Same thing happened to WoW. Eve did not drop OW PvP, but they did create High Sec space, which gives players a choice in how and when they PvP. I have no idea about EQ.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Personally, I don't want AI to be more challenging, I want it to be more interesting.
However, my aversion to PvP is It's not about me, it's about the relationship between me and another human being. Equating an AI with a human being just because it produces similar output is missing the point.
This is a very fair and honest reply.
I suppose it comes down to really personal preference of what constitutes fun. For me it is the opposite, if the game does not have some risk, I become bored, I am not entertained, I do not have fun nor relaxation.
i will not speak of old school mmos with which I started playing the genre, but lets take something more recent, WoW for instance, many played in PVE servers, I could never play in them, I chose the PvP servers. And it happened many times that as I was leveling (played first in Vanilla) a 60 would come allong and one shot me (and trust me I returned the favor to these characters when I hit 60 myself). But many other times it was more or less equal levels and during these PvP engagements in the Open world the rush of adrenaline and the excitement they generated gave me fun enough to continue the pve without getting bored.
later on at 60 I focused more on the PvP and reached rank 14, I also did the major raids 40 mans at the time. At least once each to explore that facet of the game. But I could never repeat them night after night like others. Once or twice was enough for the sake of the experience the initial challenge the lore etc.
But you see in vanilla you could actually (with small tweaks and preparation) do the raids with either epic pve or epic pvp gear. For me the raids were a bit of respite from the ongoing PvP I engaged in 90% of my time in the game. And I did not do this alone, all my guild did the same. We moved on when the game further segregated gear and one had to do engage in specific activities in order to participate further in them. (you had to have 2 sets of gear).
But I digress I am moving off tpic here. The point is that for me if there is no Risk the world is not imerssive, it is artificial and I do not have a sense of Freedom or the sense of playing the role of a character living in it, because it is fake.
Players make the already artificial (virtual world) alive and decision we take are in relation to the decisions of other real people like in real life, NPCs cannot o this for me because they are artificial as well.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
This is not intirelly accurate.
UO's Open PVP world gave the illusion that it was abandoned.
UO's open world flourished for 3 years, its success contributed to the creation of EQ. Then the original team including Richard Garriot left the project.
When EQ came out it was successful, and the new UO'
s administration decided for business reasons to implement Trammel. At that point UO got also an influx of new players who now started in Trammel, accustomed from the get go to a PVE world. At the same time many of the then VETS simply quit UO and moved on to seek other games which had Open world PvP, many of which went to Shadowbane and EVE, and AC
The new players never sought to populate the Open PvP world, they were educated to be affraid of it from the start. This gave the illusion that people in droves moved from Felucca to Trammel, but that was not the case in reality.
EVE online was always setup the way it is with the core Systems of the Empires being non Open PvP and the outer Systems being open for grabs and full PvP so players can build their own Empires and strive to keep them engage in political intreague, trade or warfare.
Anyways moving off topic :P
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Well the idea is that the loot/xp/whatever you do end up with is more satisfying. Also it adds an element of unknown to the equation. I don't want to go grind out harvesting or farming mobs knowing exactly what my yield will be and exactly what's going to happen.
The flipside of that would be that for a lot of us that makes the game more boring. It's akin to the new trend in single player FPS. Oh what's that, you died? It's ok... you'll just auto-spawn roughly 10 seconds earlier. They make games like that in an attempt to make them more action-packed and more "fun" but really for a lot of people it just makes it that much more boring.
well actually, even tho i am a pveer, i dont do raids at all
i was a raid leader of our guild in wow, but already before bc i suddenly realised i am logging to go to raid even tho i dont feel like it, just because i more or less "have to". it felt more like second job then playing a game, so i did quit raiding and never regreted it 