Why does it have to be so black and white? "It's either simple ai or Skynet lolz!". Perfectly possible to have an incremental improvement of ai and doesn't have to super intelligent to increase the game experience by a great factor.
check the secret world ! often people whine that the game is hard !go check their gearing lol !most of the time it is powerleveler wanting to be at end game ! today !most game have almost no ai !
I believe the smart ai will be great, I see people say just play pvp, but even humans have tendencies believe it or not, I have pvped and just thought to myself this feels just like playing against ai. Everything becomes predicatable. With that said, I have no doubt the smart ai is going to have a much different feel, people are going to complain and talk about how dumb the ai is regardless, but if those same people would measure the pvp experiences, there wwon't be much of a difference. The truth of the matter is there are not to many games that let you be trully creative. Skyrim I would say is one, EQNext looks promising especially considering you can have ai in the world that hate each other more than they hate you. Each creature will have limited abilities to that respect just like human players, it's the combat as much as it is the expectation of where and how encounters will occur and what possibly could happen during the encounter.
Well they did say they were doing things that they didn't think were possible. And that people said weren't possible. Do I think this means actual artificial intelligence? No, of course not. But until we see what they actually have to show, speculating is pointless.
I believe another important aspect to AI debate is the control scheme to the game. The more complicated the controls and the more intelligent the AI the more difficult the game will become. I have played complicated RTS games with amazing AIs, but spent my time frustrated, not by the AI, but the controls. The more the simple the gameplay, then I believe the more complex you can make the AI. But, the more complex the game, whether AI and/or controls, the less likely, imo, you are to attact the mainstream audience.
The reason I bring these up is that I have yet to see a competent AI in an mmo, it is always the controls that pose the most challenge to the game (I include the logistics as well: latency, etc...). I have always preferred PvP over PvE due to the unexpected and ingenious nature of other players at times, but as a game ages, I have noticed that players, for the most part, become as predictable as the AI (fixed rotations). The real challenge (for developers) will be maintaining unpredictability while allowing for players to be creative. In the end, I have left numerous mmo's over boredom with their combat. Now, taking the entire focus of the mmo away from only combat, that would be something for these modern mmos...
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
game tend to put a 1000 ms global cooldown ,instead of the 400 ms recommended by ms ! this tend to skewer timing a lot !one mistake and often you are dead !
game tend to put a 1000 ms global cooldown ,instead of the 400 ms recommended by ms ! this tend to skewer timing a lot !one mistake and often you are dead !
Something like if i make NPC really mad,he goes full aggro mode tries to hit me like mad but forgets his defenses.
Or some mob goes full turtle defense ,tries to dodge or block more but does attacks at slower rate.
They arent looking for AI that can debate philosophy.
They (and a lot of people) just want to fight things that can figure out the plate mail tank yelling "Get me! Over here!" is less a threat then the wizard throwing their 6th fireball.
You are all overestimating how intelligent and organic AI can be created in our current state of game development as of 2013.
A player level intelligence, that is random and unpredictable is something we are incapable of creating in an MMO as of now, Unless Sony has some hidden groundbreaking system which sets a complete new standard for game/MMO AI, we will not get the amazing, intelligent, groundbreaking AI you all seem to think is possible.
Anyone who has basic knowleage of AI, or has taken simple lessons in game development, computer science or just has a general interest in the area would know, that what Sony is promising is unrealistic and likely not going to come to fruition.
What are other people's thoughts on this matter?
I dunno, I've heard about them designing a program in chess that could beat almost every human player it faced. RPG's are about numbers mostly, and that's something computer's are much better than us at. As for it being unpredictible as a human that just sounds impossible.
They could always introduce an algorithm that rolls the dice on what stats the mobs are bestowed with..maximum stats being the most likely roll while average stats being less likely and lower stats being possible but not probable.
Yeah but you still wouldn't be able to trick a computer in the way you can a person. I can do 2 abilities that are commonly recognized as the beginning of a particular rotation, and then when said player begins to counter me I actually just faked it and then do a completely different one. I don't see a computer being capable of this, at least not yet anyways. We've all seen terminator and we know the future XD.
You can trick enemies in ArmA ...
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
The emergent AI they discussed doesn't seem that hard to do, the question is whether it will make the game better or not. We will use the scenario that Dave gave us about the orcs they let loose into the world.
BIG SNIP
They would not be "looking" for a new spot, although it might appear that way. They will move to a spot based on the parameters of the situation. This spot will already be pre-programmed, or in other words will be scripted to happen. That is why I've said countless times that what they are calling AI, isn't actually AI.
They are using, hopefully a complex script, and when I mean script, I mean scripting of events. The complex script would then give off the illusion of intelligent Orcs and would also give off the illusion that their placement is random.
You are very likely correct. But let's suspend disbelief for a minute. Let's assume that they ARE given a simple AI and do randomly move to a new location based off of it meeting certain criteria. The location wouldn't have to be on a predetermined list because they are smart enough to find a new location on their own. This could be very similar to a herd of animals looking for a water source when their current one dries up.
The problem I was trying to point out is that even if they gave the orcs enough AI to migrate, it wouldn't make the game any more realistic to an individual player. As you said, the original spawn points are going to be set (how else would they be able to generate quests around their existence if they weren't). So even though players are actually encountering different groups of mobs, to the players it may as well be the same exact group since it is in the same exact spot.
Trust me, I've thought about it, but in this day in age, I don't think that could be safely implemented into a game. I think there would be a lot at stake. Being able to control where they can and can't go I think right now is important.
Like I said earlier, what they are doing isn't AI, and in fact I'm glad it isn't. It would be too unpredictable, there could be consequences that could come back to bite the game in the butt. What is most important here is good game design, that's the word they should be using instead of AI.
Mostly what happens recently with AI is that people complain in Beta that its too hard and it gets toned down by release. Back in the now dead game Spellborn Beta the AI was insane vs players, stalking surrounding you, backing up from you range and flanking you, GW2 and Darkfall in their beta also had much harder AI in beta. Casual farmers and people who want ot afk dont like that so they complain and moan and drive us all crazy until they make a bunch of stationary ai mobs that have cement feet and never move. Its not a matter of AI, I mean if WOW wanted to they could make their own AI mobs a living hell but the pre WOTLK zombie invasion alone was enough to drive certain people crazy.
Originally posted by Faelsun Mostly what happens recently with AI is that people complain in Beta that its too hard and it gets toned down by release. Back in the now dead game Spellborn Beta the AI was insane vs players, stalking surrounding you, backing up from you range and flanking you, GW2 and Darkfall in their beta also had much harder AI in beta. Casual farmers and people who want ot afk dont like that so they complain and moan and drive us all crazy until they make a bunch of stationary ai mobs that have cement feet and never move. Its not a matter of AI, I mean if WOW wanted to they could make their own AI mobs a living hell but the pre WOTLK zombie invasion alone was enough to drive certain people crazy.
So it still zeroes in to players wanting simple AI so they can have fun.
As from another post, imagine a super AI mob will do all it can to stay alive, just like a real player. It will take hours, even days just to kill one mob this way. Even better, the AI will attack the player at the slightest mistake the player made. It will definately make casual players frustrated.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.
Comments
I believe another important aspect to AI debate is the control scheme to the game. The more complicated the controls and the more intelligent the AI the more difficult the game will become. I have played complicated RTS games with amazing AIs, but spent my time frustrated, not by the AI, but the controls. The more the simple the gameplay, then I believe the more complex you can make the AI. But, the more complex the game, whether AI and/or controls, the less likely, imo, you are to attact the mainstream audience.
The reason I bring these up is that I have yet to see a competent AI in an mmo, it is always the controls that pose the most challenge to the game (I include the logistics as well: latency, etc...). I have always preferred PvP over PvE due to the unexpected and ingenious nature of other players at times, but as a game ages, I have noticed that players, for the most part, become as predictable as the AI (fixed rotations). The real challenge (for developers) will be maintaining unpredictability while allowing for players to be creative. In the end, I have left numerous mmo's over boredom with their combat. Now, taking the entire focus of the mmo away from only combat, that would be something for these modern mmos...
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
game tend to put a 1000 ms global cooldown ,instead of the 400 ms recommended by ms ! this tend to skewer timing a lot !one mistake and often you are dead !
Something like if i make NPC really mad,he goes full aggro mode tries to hit me like mad but forgets his defenses.
Or some mob goes full turtle defense ,tries to dodge or block more but does attacks at slower rate.
something like.
http://www.unityoftherose.com/tools/aggdefcalc.htm
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
They arent looking for AI that can debate philosophy.
They (and a lot of people) just want to fight things that can figure out the plate mail tank yelling "Get me! Over here!" is less a threat then the wizard throwing their 6th fireball.
You can trick enemies in ArmA ...
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Trust me, I've thought about it, but in this day in age, I don't think that could be safely implemented into a game. I think there would be a lot at stake. Being able to control where they can and can't go I think right now is important.
Like I said earlier, what they are doing isn't AI, and in fact I'm glad it isn't. It would be too unpredictable, there could be consequences that could come back to bite the game in the butt. What is most important here is good game design, that's the word they should be using instead of AI.
So it still zeroes in to players wanting simple AI so they can have fun.
As from another post, imagine a super AI mob will do all it can to stay alive, just like a real player. It will take hours, even days just to kill one mob this way. Even better, the AI will attack the player at the slightest mistake the player made. It will definately make casual players frustrated.
The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.