Don't be stuck In the EQ mindset please. There are plenty of ways to convey and reinforce OOC interdependence without using skills needed to be placed on a hot bar. Asheron's Call, DAoC and others have managed to reinforce community and team work without having to rely on this sole construct.
In defense of Classiceq, exactly what mindset should we be in? The best you can ask of us is wait and see the more likely is we have heard this all before.
What game MMORPG hasn't come out and promised more character choice and then gone a totally different route or promised more options and then deliever far less? I think SOE forgets its audience here, that or they are trying to prevent someone else from taking this stuff and releasing before them, in which case they are just delaying the inevitable because someone is going to take all this stuff and release after them.
What MMORPG hasn't promised new and never before seen systems unlike anything that dared release before it?
What MMORPG hasn't said how important crafting will be to the world and how much crafters will have to do? I know The Secret World did it and so did SWtor and they both have horrible crafting systems that most people ignore completely because there are better ways to get stuff and no reason to talk to a crafter...at all.
SOE hasn't given any mindset to fill replace the old EQ mindset with and the best anyone can do is talk about possibilities because, for whatever reason, and most MMORPG players are jaded enough to suspect bad reasons, SOE has kept almost everything so close to the chest that even after this reveal people know nothing except what the graphic style will be like...and the existence of some hypothetical rally point that sounds like on paper far too much like every other Post Rifts public quest style events.
Those of us who have played a sandbox, know that a rally point in a sandbox environment could be different than a timed event in FF realm reborn themepark but even that, the most detailed system talked about so far, depends on so many other factors they have not said a word about that we just can not know.
For all I know these devs are as full of it as the others and until they say something, or show something, besides "we can't talk about that yet"...It is entirely possible that every concern about the game style is 100% accurate, it is just as likely as not at this point.
The devs have not said one thing about how they would "reinforce and convey" interdependency other than you may need more people to kill certain mobs, well hell GW2 does that, it does exactly that and nothing more.
Has this been officially confirmed? It seems SOE is promoting "freedom to play your way" yet force you to use specific weapons for skills? I don't mind 8 skills but being forced to use a certain weapon is what broke GW2 for me, that and the lack of trinity and the zerg fest that followed.
Would be nice if there is a way around this. I enjoy playing a necromancer with a staff and don't like the idea of being forced to use a dagger just to get the "best" spells. Anyone else feel this way or is it just me?
Can't see it as a game breaker for me . There should be no "best" spells if they balance things properly .
I know like many others I have ingested a lot of information lately about the game, but didn't one of the devs say something like a Human sword may not have the same abilities that an Orc sword would have so you would want to check every weapon out to see what it did?
Originally posted by HighMarshal I know like many others I have ingested a lot of information lately about the game, but didn't one of the devs say something like a Human sword may not have the same abilities that an Orc sword would have so you would want to check every weapon out to see what it did?
yea that is kind of what I was talking about as well, I remember them saying some weapons would do some things that other weapons of the same class (sword for instance) may not, but I don't remember if they were talking about stats or actually effects or what....there are just so many interviews out there with bits of information spread out over 30 youtube videos it is hard to connect dot a to dot b...or even remember where dot b was to connect to.
I really think the PR police may have done a more harm than good in the short term by causing the information to come out this way. It obviously pissed some people off on things they may or may not have a reason to be angry over...and no one can say otherwise because who the hell knows.
Originally posted by HighMarshal I know like many others I have ingested a lot of information lately about the game, but didn't one of the devs say something like a Human sword may not have the same abilities that an Orc sword would have so you would want to check every weapon out to see what it did?
Crafted weapons will have different effects based upon construction, which is in various pieces i.e
hilt + pommel + blade + whatever = sword, each providing unique attributes or abilities.
The current plan is that each class has a pair of weapons that they can use. Each of these weapons gives the class 4 unique abilities themed for the class. These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. So if a class uses 2 swords and a spear then they get 4 abilities for the sword and 4 for the spear. This list does not grow beyond 4.
This is my biggest and only concern so far with this system. If I'm a shadow knight and I really love a 2-handed mace I found, I can't use it because (for example) I can only use swords and axes? I don't like that at all.
What about people who really love or identify with their base class? They're stuck with sword and spear? No axes, maces, halberds?
I love the idea of having one 8 ability hot bar so it adds the need for strategy and other people, but locking everybody into only 2 weapons seems harsh for someone who really enjoys a particular class but favors a different weapon.
This is my biggest and only concern so far with this system. If I'm a shadow knight and I really love a 2-handed mace I found, I can't use it because (for example) I can only use swords and axes? I don't like that at all.
What about people who really love or identify with their base class? They're stuck with sword and spear? No axes, maces, halberds?
I love the idea of having one 8 ability hot bar so it adds the need for strategy and other people, but locking everybody into only 2 weapons seems harsh for someone who really enjoys a particular class but favors a different weapon.
Well if they allow 3 for each class that's an extra 160 skills they need to make. Want 4 weapons? thats 320 more skills, can't expect them to put too much effort into a free game.
Well if they allow 3 for each class that's an extra 160 skills they need to make. Want 4 weapons? thats 320 more skills, can't expect them to put too much effort into a free game.
This is a good point, and who's to say there's not plenty of depth with just the 2 weapons so far. None of us have actually seen the game yet or know anything about the abilities, crafting, and gear. It just has me worried is all.
So we have access to 12 skills instead of 8 at a time.
Also means they could potentially add in a 3rd weapon set or a 2nd set of secondary skills (16 is the magic number to me).
Would like to see each weapon have a different set of secondary skills. So when you switch weapons the other 4 switch as well (but you could always keep the same 4 for both if you wanted).
Would add another layer to combat and would go along with what he said abut optimizing skills to weapons.
There's always expansions, they'll have to add in more stuff eventually.
Lots of good conversation going on here. Figured it would be easier to make an account and respond to everyone than send telegraphs via twitter.
Please don't take anything I saw here as flippant or condescending,etc. This is good conversation and I thank you all for participating.
Let me clear this up for everyone. The current plan is that each class has a pair of weapons that they can use. Each of these weapons gives the class 4 unique abilities themed for the class. These 4 abilities are earned over the progression of the class. So if a class uses 2 swords and a spear then they get 4 abilities for the sword and 4 for the spear. This list does not grow beyond 4.
Why did we choose this design?
As we stated in the class panel our many classes is each very focused. Very very focused on a particular gameplay style. We also want each to be very visually distinct and identifiable. Both of these goals become impossible to reach with too many abilities
As has been pointed out n this thread, in EverQuest Next you are able to become any one of 40 classes at launch. These will feature a wide variety of equipment choices, ability load outs and multi-class options. On top of that you can mix character abilities between classes for even more customization. Trust me there is something for everyone here.
Another thing that I cannot overstate - this is not your typical mmo. Our class and progression model cannot be accurately compared to anything on the market today. We have played the games you have played. We know exactly what you are talking about when you bring up issues. Our hope is that together we can make a game we all want to play.
Please keep up the feedback, you guys/gals rock.
Talisker
Thank you for coming into the lion's pit Talisker, you are a brave man !
I don't mind skills being tied to weapons, but they must give us more skill options for that weapon. Give us multiple options for that weapon instead of forcing us to use a specific set.
In response to all the people complaining about how you start with less than the full 4 abilities for your weapon; you dont start an MMO where you have all your abilities from the get go! EQ, EQ2, WoW being the main examples of MMO's being played by the majority of the populace all start you with 1 ability maybe 2, and you earn the rest. This is really no different. So what if you stop at 8 total for weapons and 4 for your class, that is 12 total abilities 8 at any given time. once you have all 40 classes that becomes 160 class abilities to choose from, even though you can only use 4 of those at a time, and quite a number of weapon abilities based on which base class you choose that day or time, or situation.
Very reminiscent of EQ1 hundreds of spells, only 8 spell slots to use at a time. The only thing that is GW2 esque is having your abilities tied to a weapon, but the underlying system was in EQ.
In response to all the people complaining about how you start with less than the full 4 abilities for your weapon; you dont start an MMO where you have all your abilities from the get go! EQ, EQ2, WoW being the main examples of MMO's being played by the majority of the populace all start you with 1 ability maybe 2, and you earn the rest. This is really no different. So what if you stop at 8 total for weapons and 4 for your class, that is 12 total abilities 8 at any given time. once you have all 40 classes that becomes 160 class abilities to choose from, even though you can only use 4 of those at a time, and quite a number of weapon abilities based on which base class you choose that day or time, or situation.
Very reminiscent of EQ1 hundreds of spells, only 8 spell slots to use at a time. The only thing that is GW2 esque is having your abilities tied to a weapon, but the underlying system was in EQ.
In those other MMOs you have 8 buttons by level 10 which takes 30 whole minutes to get to. You also don't have to restart with 1 ability 39 times.
And in EQ1 if you had a decent amount of AA you have a lot more than 8 buttons even as a melee.
Originally posted by Daaken This is the single greatest aspect I dislike about EQN and have pledged to ensure this gets changed. Having weapons skills bound to a rigid inflexible design is the prime reason that forced me away from GW2. I do not understand how having such an open ended class structure for the other 4 slots but keeping the weapon skills static is good. I have explained this to Darrin McPherson and I am hoping they take constructive criticism to heart.
[*] @TaliskerDev@Jizomeo Darrin I have a very important question: Are the 4 weapon abilities fixed for each weapon or do I have a pool to use? [*]
Darrin McPherson ?@TaliskerDev9 Aug @Zederok@Jizomeo fixed for each class. @TaliskerDev@Jizomeo Any plans to either change? or is there another way to differentiate the weapons skills so no 2 classes weapons r same @Zederok@TaliskerDev@Jizomeo They are different, that's whole the idea. The core 4 are unique for every class for all weapon type they use @syrinityhusky@TaliskerDev@Jizomeo Still don't like having such a rigid weapon skill system, totally destroyed GW2 for me. I like choice
GW2 only has 8 classes though. And Arenanet hasn't been planning on adding any new classes. EQN says it's gonna have 40 classes and keep adding new classes. If for example one wanted to play a necromancer, then I seriously doubt there will be 1 undead summoner class and 39+ classes that can't do that.
But arent the weapon skills based off of the first class you select? I think I read that somewhere and maybe even in this thread someone mentioned it.
I for one do not want the same 4 skills for say a mace fresh out of character creation all the way through building my character toward bigger and better things. That is completely boring.
But arent the weapon skills based off of the first class you select? I think I read that somewhere and maybe even in this thread someone mentioned it.
I for one do not want the same 4 skills for say a mace fresh out of character creation all the way through building my character toward bigger and better things. That is completely boring.
No, the 4 weapons skills are based on your current class and what weapon you're using.
You guys need to take into account that they are going to have 40+ classes with variations of each arch type. You don't like the weapons your ShadowKnight uses but like its class abilities? Find a few classes that use the weapons you want to use, then narrow that down to the weapon skills each one uses with those particular weapons. Choose the one you like then drop the ShadowKnight class abilities into that particular class. You guys want diversity in classes right? This is where it'll come down to. You wont see 50 warriors, instead you'll see various heavy armor wearing classes with different weapon skills and abilities. I for one am looking forward to hearing and seeing more.
To me it sounds like they are getting into MOBA like classes. I haven't played any MOBA games but from what I gather LoL has a ton of characters right? Each character has unique abilities and skills with about 7 skills each? EQN seems to be taking that one step further by allowing you to swap out the class abilities.
well, having skills bound to weapons might seem restrictive at first, but it makes sense if you think it over a bit; a piercing attack would hardly be executable with a great hammer or mace, for example, so it makes sense to have it restricted to certain other weapons (rapier, for example). LIkewise a cleave attack isn't fitting for a 1h weapon. I's less of an issue than it sounds really.
Originally posted by bleyzwun I don't mind skills being tied to weapons, but they must give us more skill options for that weapon. Give us multiple options for that weapon instead of forcing us to use a specific set.
I agree with this, it was my biggest pet peeve in GW2. Or alternatively, there needs to be some serious customisation available for those 4 skills so that everyone isn't a 50% carbon copy of every other 'Class X' out there.
Originally posted by bleyzwun I don't mind skills being tied to weapons, but they must give us more skill options for that weapon. Give us multiple options for that weapon instead of forcing us to use a specific set.
I agree with this, it was my biggest pet peeve in GW2. Or alternatively, there needs to be some serious customisation available for those 4 skills so that everyone isn't a 50% carbon copy of every other 'Class X' out there.
You guys are saying this like we will only have 1 class.... 40+ classes... unless people feel the need to be cookie cutters, you wont see that.
I agree I dont enjoy having skills being bound to certain weapons (specifically magical and ranged abilities).
Melee abilities is a different kettle of fish, I think that weapon specific skills should be bound to a weapons, so for example I can't do a massive overhead smash with a tiny dagger.
But if I want to cast a fireball it shouldn't matter what weapon im using.
I suspect magic users will be separated into specific schools of magic, such as Pyromancer, Hydromancer etc. I don't think any classes will have different schools of magic mixed. I would hazard a guess that each weapon for magic users would focus on different roles - single target damage / area damage / crowd control / support.
Originally posted by bleyzwun I don't mind skills being tied to weapons, but they must give us more skill options for that weapon. Give us multiple options for that weapon instead of forcing us to use a specific set.
I agree with this, it was my biggest pet peeve in GW2. Or alternatively, there needs to be some serious customisation available for those 4 skills so that everyone isn't a 50% carbon copy of every other 'Class X' out there.
You guys are saying this like we will only have 1 class.... 40+ classes... unless people feel the need to be cookie cutters, you wont see that.
That doesn't change the fact that having no influence on half of your chosen classes skills, in a game with very few skills, is bad design.
I loved GW1 and it only had 8 skills, but you had full control over those skills. I don't mind skills being locked to weapons, it makes sense from a conceptual point of view, but there should be a few options for each of those skills, preferably learnt as you rank up in that class.
It sounds like they are making them customisable via crafting / equipment, but it needs to be significant changes to the skills and how they operate, otherwise players will feel pigeon-holed.
It would be cool instead of locking the first 4 skills to class/weapon abilities to have selection from all classes unlocked able to use the weapon. Basicly just able to customize the first four ablities the same as the last only having just the weapon be the restriction.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Can this illogical thread be closed? Since the beginning of time your weapons have had specific ways to use them. Each of those ways is a skill. In EQ2 for a Ranger there are different ways to shoot arrows. In EQN you are just limited to 4 skills at a time based on the weapon set you are using.
Comments
In defense of Classiceq, exactly what mindset should we be in? The best you can ask of us is wait and see the more likely is we have heard this all before.
What game MMORPG hasn't come out and promised more character choice and then gone a totally different route or promised more options and then deliever far less? I think SOE forgets its audience here, that or they are trying to prevent someone else from taking this stuff and releasing before them, in which case they are just delaying the inevitable because someone is going to take all this stuff and release after them.
What MMORPG hasn't promised new and never before seen systems unlike anything that dared release before it?
What MMORPG hasn't said how important crafting will be to the world and how much crafters will have to do? I know The Secret World did it and so did SWtor and they both have horrible crafting systems that most people ignore completely because there are better ways to get stuff and no reason to talk to a crafter...at all.
SOE hasn't given any mindset to fill replace the old EQ mindset with and the best anyone can do is talk about possibilities because, for whatever reason, and most MMORPG players are jaded enough to suspect bad reasons, SOE has kept almost everything so close to the chest that even after this reveal people know nothing except what the graphic style will be like...and the existence of some hypothetical rally point that sounds like on paper far too much like every other Post Rifts public quest style events.
Those of us who have played a sandbox, know that a rally point in a sandbox environment could be different than a timed event in FF realm reborn themepark but even that, the most detailed system talked about so far, depends on so many other factors they have not said a word about that we just can not know.
For all I know these devs are as full of it as the others and until they say something, or show something, besides "we can't talk about that yet"...It is entirely possible that every concern about the game style is 100% accurate, it is just as likely as not at this point.
The devs have not said one thing about how they would "reinforce and convey" interdependency other than you may need more people to kill certain mobs, well hell GW2 does that, it does exactly that and nothing more.
Can't see it as a game breaker for me . There should be no "best" spells if they balance things properly .
Darrin is hooking up the info tonight:
yea that is kind of what I was talking about as well, I remember them saying some weapons would do some things that other weapons of the same class (sword for instance) may not, but I don't remember if they were talking about stats or actually effects or what....there are just so many interviews out there with bits of information spread out over 30 youtube videos it is hard to connect dot a to dot b...or even remember where dot b was to connect to.
I really think the PR police may have done a more harm than good in the short term by causing the information to come out this way. It obviously pissed some people off on things they may or may not have a reason to be angry over...and no one can say otherwise because who the hell knows.
Crafted weapons will have different effects based upon construction, which is in various pieces i.e
hilt + pommel + blade + whatever = sword, each providing unique attributes or abilities.
This is my biggest and only concern so far with this system. If I'm a shadow knight and I really love a 2-handed mace I found, I can't use it because (for example) I can only use swords and axes? I don't like that at all.
What about people who really love or identify with their base class? They're stuck with sword and spear? No axes, maces, halberds?
I love the idea of having one 8 ability hot bar so it adds the need for strategy and other people, but locking everybody into only 2 weapons seems harsh for someone who really enjoys a particular class but favors a different weapon.
Well if they allow 3 for each class that's an extra 160 skills they need to make. Want 4 weapons? thats 320 more skills, can't expect them to put too much effort into a free game.
This is a good point, and who's to say there's not plenty of depth with just the 2 weapons so far. None of us have actually seen the game yet or know anything about the abilities, crafting, and gear. It just has me worried is all.
Good info, just saw it on twitter myself.
So we have access to 12 skills instead of 8 at a time.
Also means they could potentially add in a 3rd weapon set or a 2nd set of secondary skills (16 is the magic number to me).
Would like to see each weapon have a different set of secondary skills. So when you switch weapons the other 4 switch as well (but you could always keep the same 4 for both if you wanted).
Would add another layer to combat and would go along with what he said abut optimizing skills to weapons.
There's always expansions, they'll have to add in more stuff eventually.
More classes maybe, they seem pretty set on limiting our skills.
Thank you for coming into the lion's pit Talisker, you are a brave man
!
In response to all the people complaining about how you start with less than the full 4 abilities for your weapon; you dont start an MMO where you have all your abilities from the get go! EQ, EQ2, WoW being the main examples of MMO's being played by the majority of the populace all start you with 1 ability maybe 2, and you earn the rest. This is really no different. So what if you stop at 8 total for weapons and 4 for your class, that is 12 total abilities 8 at any given time. once you have all 40 classes that becomes 160 class abilities to choose from, even though you can only use 4 of those at a time, and quite a number of weapon abilities based on which base class you choose that day or time, or situation.
Very reminiscent of EQ1 hundreds of spells, only 8 spell slots to use at a time. The only thing that is GW2 esque is having your abilities tied to a weapon, but the underlying system was in EQ.
In those other MMOs you have 8 buttons by level 10 which takes 30 whole minutes to get to. You also don't have to restart with 1 ability 39 times.
And in EQ1 if you had a decent amount of AA you have a lot more than 8 buttons even as a melee.
But arent the weapon skills based off of the first class you select? I think I read that somewhere and maybe even in this thread someone mentioned it.
I for one do not want the same 4 skills for say a mace fresh out of character creation all the way through building my character toward bigger and better things. That is completely boring.
No, the 4 weapons skills are based on your current class and what weapon you're using.
You guys need to take into account that they are going to have 40+ classes with variations of each arch type. You don't like the weapons your ShadowKnight uses but like its class abilities? Find a few classes that use the weapons you want to use, then narrow that down to the weapon skills each one uses with those particular weapons. Choose the one you like then drop the ShadowKnight class abilities into that particular class. You guys want diversity in classes right? This is where it'll come down to. You wont see 50 warriors, instead you'll see various heavy armor wearing classes with different weapon skills and abilities. I for one am looking forward to hearing and seeing more.
To me it sounds like they are getting into MOBA like classes. I haven't played any MOBA games but from what I gather LoL has a ton of characters right? Each character has unique abilities and skills with about 7 skills each? EQN seems to be taking that one step further by allowing you to swap out the class abilities.
I agree with this, it was my biggest pet peeve in GW2. Or alternatively, there needs to be some serious customisation available for those 4 skills so that everyone isn't a 50% carbon copy of every other 'Class X' out there.
You guys are saying this like we will only have 1 class.... 40+ classes... unless people feel the need to be cookie cutters, you wont see that.
I suspect magic users will be separated into specific schools of magic, such as Pyromancer, Hydromancer etc. I don't think any classes will have different schools of magic mixed. I would hazard a guess that each weapon for magic users would focus on different roles - single target damage / area damage / crowd control / support.
That doesn't change the fact that having no influence on half of your chosen classes skills, in a game with very few skills, is bad design.
I loved GW1 and it only had 8 skills, but you had full control over those skills. I don't mind skills being locked to weapons, it makes sense from a conceptual point of view, but there should be a few options for each of those skills, preferably learnt as you rank up in that class.
It sounds like they are making them customisable via crafting / equipment, but it needs to be significant changes to the skills and how they operate, otherwise players will feel pigeon-holed.
It would be cool instead of locking the first 4 skills to class/weapon abilities to have selection from all classes unlocked able to use the weapon. Basicly just able to customize the first four ablities the same as the last only having just the weapon be the restriction.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Can this illogical thread be closed? Since the beginning of time your weapons have had specific ways to use them. Each of those ways is a skill. In EQ2 for a Ranger there are different ways to shoot arrows. In EQN you are just limited to 4 skills at a time based on the weapon set you are using.
For example from EQ2 Ranger.
C = Class; W=Weapon based skills
C - Stealth
C - Lightning Strike
W - Rearshot
W or C - Emberstrike
W - Searing Strike
W - Cheap Shot
C - Pathfinding
... etc