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Why are YOU opposed to Open World Non-instanced dungeons?
kaz350
Member UncommonPosts: 130
Infinite Dungeons kill crafting : Due to an infinite amount of loot on par with or better than crafting there is usually little incentive to wear crafted gear. The crafted gear that IS useful is usually quickly replaced.
Infinite Dungeons kill the life of the game: A Full set of so called "RARE/Epic" gear in a weekend? Not problem at all with the help of infinte spawning dungeons + LFG tools!
Infinite dungeons make rare/epic gear the Norm...meaning nothing is epic or rare: When you sloooow down the amount of available gear in the game everything instantly becomes more valauble and *Gasp* memorable!
So youre opposed because ...."Guild A will just camp and Kill the Skeleton King 24/7 so I'll never get to see it"
So? Whats wrong with that? You want your MMO world to feel immersive and real having an infinite amount of dungeons spawning on the fly? Thats not immersive....whats wrong with "Sorry adventurer the Skeleton King has already been slain we are safe...for now"
Also consider once the "next tier" of dungeons come out, the older dungeons will clear out which will allow YOU to start farmiing those dungeons while the top tier guilds farm the new stuff. Isnt this CONSIDERBLY a better option than welfare tokens?
Not to mention if you kill Infinite dungeons you can kill the whole Bind on Equip feature which will allow those top guilds to sell off their old gear. This would help guilds earn money for their guild raids instead of the absoutely terrible guild feature of "spawning an extra 10% gold from nowhere" perk.
I'm really curious to hear your feedback. Is being able to "Run a dungeon" worth killing so many other aspects of the MMO?
Comments
Instance dungeons allow game to actually feel like a game than virtual world. It can be quickly run in and out with a team, and achieve something from a short time to epic weeks or months, depending on the dungeon. It can also be tailor to tell story that's close to single-player game counterpart, and can be repeat if player want to do it again.
I prefer open world non-instances, but some gamer do prefer instances over open world because of the convenience and story telling aspect which is easier to translate from single-player game to MMO. That's why we have two sub-genre, instances and non-instances game co-exist which target different type of players.
Just remember; it wasn't all ham and plaques:
Non-instanced dungeons also:
- had overcamping issues
- had opposing groups train you to get your spot
- had noobie groups train you accidently
- had high level farmers taking all bosses
- remember in Lord of the Rings, when the fellowship is trapped in Moria and they have to escape hordes of goblins alive, and then that other fellowship came in and killed the Balrog and took the wizard epic piece, and then Gandalf had to stay there because the Balrog was on a 24 hour spawn timer? ......a.k.a. sometimes you've earned the right to face that boss you've worked so hard to get to.
Playing devil's advocate here more than anything; but just remember; there were reasons games switched to instancing - it wasn't just cruelty to their paying customers which motivated the switch.
Either way has it draw backs. Just as instanced MMORPG's make it not an MMORPG since it isn't an open world, etc.
But again...since what made MMORPG's different from console games was just that...they were living breathing worlds where the player had to maintain a reputation to get in groups, guilds, and get anywhere.
It has nothing to do with gear but rather with making a dungeon feel like a dungeon. Dungeons are about a small group of people entering, exploring and conquering. When a dungeon is not instanced and you can have dozens of groups working through them.
Dungeons are about isolation. They are about overcoming the current occupants. They are not about camping or fighting with other adventurers for content.
I've never understood why people oppose instanced dungeons. If you don't want to run them because they are instanced and it breaks your 'immersion' (now there is a joke in an mmo but that aside).
I'm not against open world dungeons, but I am against having only one path for progression. So just having instanced dungeons is bad, but so is just having non instanced dungeons. There should be a variety of content.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I like both.
I like instanced dungeons because they feel very themeparky - you stand in line (LFG), you get on the ride, and you go through the ride until you kill the final boss.
I like open zone dungeons as well. They are usually bigger and more sprawling. There's no static path, no "winning". There are other groups and players to interact with. It's like playing on a playground, as opposed to standing in line for the roller coaster.
Both are fun. Just in different ways.
I'm not big on instances, but I do like having something to do when I log in.
If you limit things to the point where I feel there's nothing productive to do in your world, I'll log out and go play a world where I do feel useful.
If ANYONE prefers instanced dungeons over non-instanced dungeons, it is only because they haven't experienced what it really was like to be in non-instanced (in other words, the original concept of dungeons in cyber game world.) dungeons. The concept of instanced dungeons was developed only for the convenience of game development, not for the better of MMO. It is just litterally bad thing. Something to be excluded from MMOs sooner or later, except for very few potential exceptions that can possibly enhance the quality of game experience.
I'll give you a scene from the only open world dungeon I have dealt with personally but I can't imagine it being different in other games... grp of lowbies waiting at a boss spawn point hoping they can get the tap to complete their quest before the high lvl chars farming it do.... that is the HUGE problem with it. It provides a great annoyance.. FYI that was a mid lvl instance in AoC. We all needed the quest, needed the xp and it was more like 3 parties waiting in a line hoping to whatever god they pray to that they can get the tap and move on to the next boss and fight with those high lvl toons.
edit: just remembered I experienced these in Lineage 2.. also just as bad. We actually fought over farming spots.
I agree. My preference is for a well done mix - and for the non-instanced dungeons to be more VG like and less EQ like. I also like the idea of having quests lead to items where you 'spawn' the boss you need with the item in a non-instanced dungeon, rather than them be on a timer.
You're arguing that gear drop rates should be lower. That has nothing to do with instancing.
This ^
And don't forget trolls / griefers. A lot of idiot-proof systems in games are specifically created nowadays, because unfortunately developers have to design to combat trolls & griefers. It sucks, but if developers don't sacrifice certain mechanics to compensate, then the game as a whole tends to suffer much worse. Because there's just no way to police them all if a game is popular.
9 yrs ago I was trying to get my monk epic so I was trying to get raster of guk. I went in every few hours for days to see if he was camped and he always was by the same guy. I finally asked after about a week if he had gotten it or not, he said he got it 3 days earlier and just leaves his guy there while playing his other account to piss people off.
Add people selling MQs for drops, and you've got the main reason I am against non instanced dungeons. If the non instanced dungeons have no quest items that are required for anything important or best in slot items, then sure, fill your non-instanced boots.
The other thing is that non instanced dungeons can entertain one group of people at a time, instanced dungeons can accomidate a lot more people. SOE is looking to throw a broad net for players and non instanced dungeons don't help with that.
i like BOTH equally open world for interaction with others and group instances so we can have different versions of the open dungeun for example sebillis welll its full of frogloks but in the instance version " revenge of the iksar" iksar invade and retake sebillis, there can be many more versions different events, but you cant do that in open dungeuns not , when 3 or 4 groups are doing different goals at once
theres room for all open and instance dont like instances dont do them !
For what its worth.. I prefer Open World Dungeons. I think Instances kill a lot of things. IE people making new friends due to instance demands and people just waiting for the people they already know to come play.
I also think it creates world where everyone is always after the same TIER gear. Worlds like EQ1 and EQ2 had people actually wearing a lot of different gear... Everyone is always running the same few instances for their level.
I also like running into other players or god forbid saving another group because they got bad pulls. This stuff happens in Open World Dungeons. Not so in Instances.
Yep I will take an Old Non instanced EQ1 style or EQ2 style or Vanguard Style dungeon any day of the week. compared to Instancing of WOW style dungeon.
It's never been an either or argument for me. There is a time and place for both. Like many have stated there are pros and cons for both of them.
Also I disagree with people who talk of the old days as if it was perfect. Camping an NM for hours upon hours to just watch another guild claim and kill it wasn't really that fun. On the other hand if you're apart of the group that claims it or even better the actual player that claims it, that always caused a huge adrenaline rush for me that instances just don't. You give up that rush, and the player interaction for convenience with instances. As much as I loved those times in non instanced dungeons sometime I don't have hours upon hours of time, I just want to get in get something fun done and log off.
I’ll play.
Instanced dungeons versus open dungeons.
In EQ1, UO, and every other world I’ve played in since, dungeons are hypercamped. If you don’t have the biggest guild, then you won’t get the spawn without putting some money down or camping (with your group of friends) for several hours to maybe get the spawn. And others are going to try to move past you or tag it first.
In EQ1, you paid cash to get into raid dungeons, but then again, you needed a huge number of people for a lot of them. In addition, EQ1 had gated content (like 5 to 10 dungeons requiring large numbers of people) that you would never get; as no one wanted to back-flag. So you paid cash, didn’t go, or one of the 3%-5% of players that got to see the end-game content.
Not because you were super-leet. No, it was because you landed in the right guild and were tortured weeks on end earning everyone above you crap.
I remember people putting baby rangers (not rogues, doh) in dungeons so they could log in and see if the mobs were up before bothering 30-100 other people.
Instanced dungeons do allow for repeated content; and what you’re trying to do is leverage having all the gear to yourself at the expense of all the other players. Creators tend to want people to play their dungeons, not stand around with their hands out because all dungeons with good equipment has been camped.
Non-instanced content was a HUGE failure in EQ1 and that is the reason why a lot of other games had instanced content and EQ1 put in instanced content later.
You could have some content instanced (dungeons being the obvious targets) and other stuff open.
You could do the EQ1 content, where the general dungeon was open, but instances were available for the sidelined content.
Ever do a camp for your j-booties in EQ1? Sit on that damned island when you got the camp? Only 1 seafury and that a rare spawn. Memory says 10 minute spawns and I think the cyclops was a 10% or so. And he only sometimes dropped the goodie. Nothing else nearby. That was around a 4-8 hour camp if you could get it. Only one and only drops one goodie.
Ever get your halfling mask in EQ1? That’d be at the bottom of chardok as a 1% spawn from a rare mob with 10 minute spawn? I camped that mob for 6-8 hours a day for 2 months. Every day. That was well over 200 hour camp. But it was the rarest item on the server at that time.
Sound like fun? No. And that is why almost everyone ran to other games ... that had instances.
Non-instanced content is the minority path. It wastes endless time unless you are a hardcore player AND you are in a good guild. Everyone else loses out.
Ever camped for your fungus tunic in EQ1? No, you didn’t if you were on my server as a Chinese guild had that camp. Always. 24 hours a day seven days a week. You want a fungus tunic? Your ass pays 10x the price in the market or you pay cash or you don’t get it.
People stopped playing non-instanced content games because accessing the content requires hours. I don’t know about you, perhaps you’re still high-school age. I don’t have 2 hours (even) to wait on a spawn.
Almost no one does any other content than the newest and highest. Saying that people can “just wait around to get the older content when the kewl peoplez move on” is just like working with pissed-on economics.
Non-instanced dungeons gate content only to the best few (under 3) guilds and a minority of the player base on a server.
It pisses people off and they leave as soon as something else better comes out.
Because people always find the most efficient (read: abusive) way of doing things.
Open dungeons respawn bosses, so groups would just to to the boss they wanted and hang out either killing that boss repeatedly or trying to tag it constantly from others.
Groups that just follow others so they don't have to take on the mobs and then try to steal the boss while the group ahead of them is healing/eating/drinking/buffing/etc.
Trains. Esp on PvE servers which you specifically selected so douchebags won't kill you while you're trying to accomplish something else. If I wanted PvP, I would have clicked PvP on the server select screen, or better yet, I would go play a PvP game.
Having to wait for respawns. There's the people who want to be behind the group clearing everything so they don't have to actually do anything, and then there's the people who are farming exp or have a quest to do or whatever, and they actually want to kill the trash mobs but can't because they're already dead.
Poor balance of respawn timers. Some games anticipate that the area will be somewhat full and repop based on that assumption. This renders that area nearly impossible due to often tricky pulls combined with groups of mobs respawning on top of you.
At the end of the day, non-instanced dungeons are either boring, or full of jerks. I'd rather do a dungeon with a group, then requeue and run it again instead of standing next to the boss that my group wants to kill waiting for it to repop. That's a literal loot pinata. I, at least, want to feel like I'm going through a dungeon.
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
Open world non instanced dungeons can never tell a story like a themepark dungeon can, with voice acting and cinematic entrances and the like, by its very nature it can not smoothly go from point a to point b to point c.
However, I am not opposed to them I actually like them better...IF THE WORLD IS BIG ENOUGH.
One major problem with game worlds is they actually seem to have gotten smaller, compare UO and SWG to WoW at release...compare WoW at release to The Secret World or Star Wars Old Republic.....I could be wrong about SWtor but it seemed smaller when I played it and the Secret World is down right miniscule in the amount of explorable land, that is non instanced land.
Then you have certain ASIAN MMO's which sometimes give the illusion of space but without any real branches from the themepark ride to take advantage of it...it just becomes a longer walk from point a to point b when you have to travel the themepark walk.
I would prefer non instanced "mini dungeons" that you may stumble upon and explore like the odd cave in UO I would occasional stumble across while mining for ore. Maybe where camping the same cave looking for a boss to spawn would be replaced with exploring the landscape looking for a dungeon...that would probably be more fun anyway..
of course if old EQ and UO had modern mechanics like loot tapping and the likes from Lotro and GW2 a lot of "problems" wouldn't have been problems.
that's something i didnt consider in my post.
IF these Open World dungeons weren't competitive- If everyone who tagged that boss got a chance at their loot equally, I'd be fine with it. Would eliminate all these issues.
But, saying that, it feels like the dungeons would just turn into GW2 dynamic events, in that you'd just stand in the back and pewpew away at the boss until it died. These events aren't very epic you can imagine, but if the dungeons were to be open world, this is the only way i'd give that game a shot.
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
I play games for gameplay. That means I'm interested in interesting challenges which are about skillful decision-making.
Instanced dungeons mean never having to wait for a respawn (is that really what you want to spend your time on in a game?) and being able to have strong monster mechanics which test your skill rather than mechanics which become trivially easy when a couple extra players show up and help DPS it down without any threat of failure.
For me almost nothing is gained by being an open world dungeon, whereas respawn-waiting and worse fight mechanics are only the two biggest reasons open world dungeons are notably less fun for me. So it's a big net-negative.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver