One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
Make friends with a Cleric.
Join a guild.
Find a Priest.
Do something else.
Having tanks/healers didn't create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style.
Laziness did.
Taking away tanks/healers won't remove the laziness either.
LFD/LFG/LFR systems are great, because they can fill a need. But how lazy and worthless and spoiled are you people that you COMPLAIN you have to wait 10 minutes for the game to do everything for you?
Don't like to wait? Roll a healer or tank.
Don't want to tank or heal?
Do something else while you wait - craft, quest, socialize, gather, PvP, explore, etc. etc. etc.
Simple trade offs. It's easy. NOTHING needs to change, there is NO problem other than players = shit.
Here is a fact of life - you will be waiting on other people, and be forced to rely on other people for your entire life.
A little bit of patience goes a long way.
Interdependence builds community.
Kaboom.
Thread over.
MMO devs are trying to fix problems that don't exist because they haven't yet been able to make a game that is better than WoW.
This is why the only upcoming game I have bought / am buying is FFXIV:ARR - because it's like WoW, well kind of more like old WoW, and is doing the same stuff plus a few more things and (maybe) doing them better.
I mean, I loved UO back in the day, and I had some good times in SWG...
But that was before 2004. That was pre-WoW. Nothing else has honestly come close. I'm really hoping FFXIV has enough mojo to pull it off - because we all know WoW as declined quite a bit with all the simplification and questionable recent expansions.
Their goal is still to remove the need. Some other mix of tools to make a team have synergy like a trinity team but not rely on the roles of tank and heals. What the tools sets are? CC maybe? Maybe everyone will have some form of CC. Warrior stuns, Mages blinds, Rogue saps, enchanter mezzes. This is all guessing other then they never want to leave you waiting for a mix of classes that will make the team work. If everyone gets a heal like GW2 I will laugh lol
Everyone could potentially have a heal with multiclassing... Your gear may not like it/it might not be very effective though I'd think.
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
Make friends with a Cleric.
Join a guild.
Find a Priest.
Do something else.
Having tanks/healers didn't create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style.
Laziness did.
Taking away tanks/healers won't remove the laziness either.
LFD/LFG/LFR systems are great, because they can fill a need. But how lazy and worthless and spoiled are you people that you COMPLAIN you have to wait 10 minutes for the game to do everything for you?
Don't like to wait? Roll a healer or tank.
Don't want to tank or heal?
Do something else while you wait - craft, quest, socialize, gather, PvP, explore, etc. etc. etc.
Simple trade offs. It's easy. NOTHING needs to change, there is NO problem other than players = shit.
Here is a fact of life - you will be waiting on other people, and be forced to rely on other people for your entire life.
A little bit of patience goes a long way.
Interdependence builds community.
Kaboom.
Thread over.
MMO devs are trying to fix problems that don't exist because they haven't yet been able to make a game that is better than WoW.
This is why the only upcoming game I have bought / am buying is FFXIV:ARR - because it's like WoW, well kind of more like old WoW, and is doing the same stuff plus a few more things and (maybe) doing them better.
Ya I am not sure when devs started thinking the trinity was a problem lol. Multiclass fixes the problem of no healer or tank. Let people have the option to play that with their main and not make a new char. Its also why FF14 is where I am at and this is coming from a huge EQ fan who really wants EQN to be the next big it!!!
I'm not 100% sure this wasn't already posted in this thread but I saw people saying that healing wasn't mentioned at all at SOE. in fact it was briefly along with defensive minded classes as follows:
<p bbcodequote"="">
We do have classes that, I don’t want to say lean towards a role, but certainly will have abilities that fit more in line with what you think of as a healer or a tank. It is important for us that if you enjoy playing defensively, say you are a warrior and you are used to being sort of the front line, we still want you to be able to do that. We want you to be able to play the way you want to play. What we don’t want is you staring at a threat meter or insulting the NPC’s mom to get him to attack you. That’s not the type of gameplay we are looking for.
One point to make, our NPC’s are not stupid enough to attack the same person over and over and over again while the rest of the party is killing them. They will be able to figure out how you are hurting them, and they will stop you from doing it.
While we definitely don’t have those mechanics in there, we want you to be able to play defensively, or play a support role, but we are very careful to not have to require them so that your 10 friends can do content without having to have…the tank. We don’t want that.
So there will indeed be heals to quell that fear... whether or not they'll be advantageous is another thing.
Classes with abilities that heal are all I am asking for, but the key of "if they are advantageous or not" is really the generator of concern for me.
I stopped playing GW2 when four dps guys I was trying to heal berated me for 10 minutes for wasting a spot in RVR. People can be turds, but really, they were right. My interest in playing 'my way' was a liability to them.
Much of the EQN information smacks of the same DPS only mechanics.
So have the EQNext dev team said they are removing/killing healing? or is this some conclusion people have jumped too? What I got from the class panel is that healing classes are going to have more things to do than wait for people to get hurt.
I don't live off of mom and dad. Or, off of some kind of disability entitlement. I'd rather get to the actual game part of a game than wait on some required niche role, to group up. And no, I don't want to roll that role. Roles that are generally good for nothing but tanking a simpleton of a big bad. Or, for healing the tank. And, only good for that, with the result being that everyone else is stuck fighting the brain-dead big bads necessary for those two roles to have a guaranteed role in the game at all. Those healers and tanks are asking for the rest of us to be made captive to the same droolingly stupid tactics and AI we've played over, and over, and over again. Well, it's too late. There won't be dedicated and required healing and tanking roles. FFXIV is coming out though. Wish you the best.
Originally posted by Aabel So have the EQNext dev team said they are removing/killing healing? or is this some conclusion people have jumped too? What I got from the class panel is that healing classes are going to have more things to do than wait for people to get hurt.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Originally posted by Aabel So have the EQNext dev team said they are removing/killing healing? or is this some conclusion people have jumped too? What I got from the class panel is that healing classes are going to have more things to do than wait for people to get hurt.
It is just some conclusion people have jumped too.
Of course if SOE would reveal a bit more about its master plan people wouldn't be stumbling in the dark and taking everything to extremes.
"Whats that you say? EQnext is doing away with the minimap? Great now everyone will just insta teleport to the destination by voice command!"
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Make more friends. Or grab a druid or shaman (who were more than capable of healing groups unless you were on a raid or in some very high powered area that required a CH later in the game.. and then a shaman slow was powerful enough to mitigate healing required to the point they could keep up if you didn't overpull).
Personally, I think they can mix in healers with buffing and other support stuff as well.
Totally killing off healing works fine in a historical game but for a fantasy MMO based on Forgotten realms (and Smed can say whatever he likes, Norrath is based on Faerun) totally taking away healing makes little sense.
I do not think all MMOs should have healer, like that Car wars MMO NC soft had some years back, having healers and tanks in it made no sense whatsoever, but healing is an important part of any D&D based game.
Tanking on the other hand ain't, you didn't see any tanks until the terrible D&D 4th edition a few years ago, first D&D game that actually had less US players than another RPG (Pathfinder, but in many European countries have either local games or Vampire been more popular long before that).
But even in D&D do the clerics do a lot more than tanking, they wear plate, can fight pretty OK, have mD8 in hipoints (warriors have D10, rogues D6 and wizards D4) and they are also the main buffer. So let the healers do a little more things then just heal and rez players.
Originally posted by Aabel So have the EQNext dev team said they are removing/killing healing? or is this some conclusion people have jumped too? What I got from the class panel is that healing classes are going to have more things to do than wait for people to get hurt.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Trinity is 100% dead in this game. You will never have to wait for a class to make a team work. That is their goal and why they removed the trinity.
That's great but I didn't ask about tanking, I already understand the vision they have laid out there. What I don't understand is why people are freaking out about healing, have they said anything about healing being gone? Or is it just conjecture/speculation? What I saw during the class panel about healing sounded more like a traditional table top RPG healer who does more than just wait for people to get hurt and maybe through a buff here and there.
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
Make friends with a Cleric.
Join a guild.
Find a Priest.
Do something else.
Having tanks/healers didn't create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style.
Laziness did.
Taking away tanks/healers won't remove the laziness either.
LFD/LFG/LFR systems are great, because they can fill a need. But how lazy and worthless and spoiled are you people that you COMPLAIN you have to wait 10 minutes for the game to do everything for you?
Don't like to wait? Roll a healer or tank.
Don't want to tank or heal?
Do something else while you wait - craft, quest, socialize, gather, PvP, explore, etc. etc. etc.
Simple trade offs. It's easy. NOTHING needs to change, there is NO problem other than players = shit.
Here is a fact of life - you will be waiting on other people, and be forced to rely on other people for your entire life.
A little bit of patience goes a long way.
Interdependence builds community.
Some of this post doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
You're talking like we all have infinite amount of playtime. Don't like waiting, roll another class! Don't want to tank or heal, do something else! Join a guild, make friends and etc, all good, but what if no one is online? Some problem again, waste of time searching for someone.
Having dedicated tank and healer classes did create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style with the LFG tools. Just make people be able to fill more than 1 role on-the-fly and everything is a lot better.
Tell me how logic is it for you to say someone is lazy for not wanting to roll a whole new class from the start just to be able to do the dungeon he wanted but couldn't because of lack of tank and healer? Some people don't like to wait for a bad game design and this is what dedicated classes are.
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
This excuse is just as ridiculous now as it was in the EQ Next reveal.
They have tons of classes and could easily make several viable healers. They've also given the ability to both change classes, and multiclass. Thats THREE ways they've already rectified the problem, without having to remove key elements of fantasy rpg gameplay.
Its not change we're afraid of, its stupidity.
They already have the answer to not enough healers and tanks to get things done, multiclass. Give everyone the option to take their turn to tank and heal when people who like to play that type of role is not around. Lots of people in Rift (myself in cluded) played as many roles as they could to make teams work. They better have something really good if they have removed the trinity. I think its just gona be pong.
If it based around AI, why not snare the mob and voilà! The mob attacks the tank. Can't get to healer. Give that toon something that plays against the mob personality, and he will prioritize that character (your tank) over the other melee.
How is that pong? Creative players will win in this game, people need to start thinking outside the box.
Thats called aggro control and thats not in this game. You will have no control over how what mob hits what player. Be it by skills or actions. You can control the battle field but unless they have collision tanking. Then each battle would have to be set up to keep the defensive class in the area that was getting hit. Remove from your mind any way to get the mob to do what you want and now tell me how a class can tank. SoE was also very clear there was only defensive roles (maybe pass on buffs to team mates) but you in no way could tank. I get your pain, I wish there was. Im not saying this to troll but you cant tank.
You're assuming that the mobs are not phased by anything the player does. That is opposite what they said they wanted to achieve. They said the monsters will react to players, so ... outsmart the mob vs. out dps them. Force them to do what you want them to do, rather than having them control you.
They said nothing about snap aggro for certain abilities, they only talked about general behavior and high level play-style. No standing on corner hitting taunt.
They didn't say "There is no way for you to tank." They said, there wont be a "Tank" like you are used to.
As for your question in orange, I say that plate armor is in the game for a reason. Snap aggro is still a possibility that I very much see being in the game because of storybricks. If monsters are infuriated by certain actions, have the character you want to take hits perform those actions. Have that character wear heavy armor. Have that character use defensive skills and a shield.
"Tanking" is nothing more than absorbing the brunt of the damage, and mitigating it enough to make the fight worthwhile. I don't see why that can't happen.
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Like you said. "Tank in another game." This is not the same. Similar responsibility when it comes to overarching tactics, different implementation.
I will provide you with a quote too:
There will be different classes and different build that are angled towards some of the roles, so there might be a class or a build or a class that is more tank-ish but you don't NEED that person to accomplish that goal and content. You can go in there without having somebody who is the stereotypical tank.
With that, how can you say that there will be absolutely no tanking? The role will be in place, there are ways around the NEED for the role as they say, but it still exists.
There is no 'stand in corner hit taunt button'. But, there are other tanking methods. I never ONLY stood in a corner as a tank, that part of the role is gone, but not the entire role. You are just hoping to complain about the topic it seems?
Originally posted by Aabel So have the EQNext dev team said they are removing/killing healing? or is this some conclusion people have jumped too? What I got from the class panel is that healing classes are going to have more things to do than wait for people to get hurt.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Trinity is 100% dead in this game. You will never have to wait for a class to make a team work. That is their goal and why they removed the trinity.
That's great but I didn't ask about tanking, I already understand the vision they have laid out there. What I don't understand is why people are freaking out about healing, have they said anything about healing being gone? Or is it just conjecture/speculation? What I saw during the class panel about healing sounded more like a traditional table top RPG healer who does more than just wait for people to get hurt and maybe through a buff here and there.
If they are removing the trinity so people dont need to wait to start a team to find the right mix of players. Why would healing be any different then tanking being removed? So we dont need to wait to find a tank but we do need to wait to find a healer? lol
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
This excuse is just as ridiculous now as it was in the EQ Next reveal.
They have tons of classes and could easily make several viable healers. They've also given the ability to both change classes, and multiclass. Thats THREE ways they've already rectified the problem, without having to remove key elements of fantasy rpg gameplay.
Its not change we're afraid of, its stupidity.
They already have the answer to not enough healers and tanks to get things done, multiclass. Give everyone the option to take their turn to tank and heal when people who like to play that type of role is not around. Lots of people in Rift (myself in cluded) played as many roles as they could to make teams work. They better have something really good if they have removed the trinity. I think its just gona be pong.
If it based around AI, why not snare the mob and voilà! The mob attacks the tank. Can't get to healer. Give that toon something that plays against the mob personality, and he will prioritize that character (your tank) over the other melee.
How is that pong? Creative players will win in this game, people need to start thinking outside the box.
Thats called aggro control and thats not in this game. You will have no control over how what mob hits what player. Be it by skills or actions. You can control the battle field but unless they have collision tanking. Then each battle would have to be set up to keep the defensive class in the area that was getting hit. Remove from your mind any way to get the mob to do what you want and now tell me how a class can tank. SoE was also very clear there was only defensive roles (maybe pass on buffs to team mates) but you in no way could tank. I get your pain, I wish there was. Im not saying this to troll but you cant tank.
You're assuming that the mobs are not phased by anything the player does. That is opposite what they said they wanted to achieve. They said the monsters will react to players, so ... outsmart the mob vs. out dps them. Force them to do what you want them to do, rather than having them control you.
They said nothing about snap aggro for certain abilities, they only talked about general behavior and high level play-style. No standing on corner hitting taunt.
They didn't say "There is no way for you to tank." They said, there wont be a "Tank" like you are used to.
As for your question in orange, I say that plate armor is in the game for a reason. Snap aggro is still a possibility that I very much see being in the game because of storybricks. If monsters are infuriated by certain actions, have the character you want to take hits perform those actions. Have that character wear heavy armor. Have that character use defensive skills and a shield.
"Tanking" is nothing more than absorbing the brunt of the damage, and mitigating it enough to make the fight worthwhile. I don't see why that can't happen.
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Like you said. "Tank in another game." This is not the same. Similar responsibility when it comes to overarching tactics, different implementation.
I will provide you with a quote too:
There will be different classes and different build that are angled towards some of the roles, so there might be a class or a build or a class that is more tank-ish but you don't NEED that person to accomplish that goal and content. You can go in there without having somebody who is the stereotypical tank.
With that, how can you say that there will be absolutely no tanking? The role will be in place, there are ways around the NEED for the role as they say, but it still exists.
There is no 'stand in corner hit taunt button'. But, there are other tanking methods. I never ONLY stood in a corner as a tank, that part of the role is gone, but not the entire role. You are just hoping to complain about the topic it seems?
The interview I linked was in response to what you are saying. She asks for the devs to be clear, is there a tank in any way. They said impossible.
Some of this post doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
You're talking like we all have infinite amount of playtime. Don't like waiting, roll another class! Don't want to tank or heal, do something else! Join a guild, make friends and etc, all good, but what if no one is online? Some problem again, waste of time searching for someone.
Having dedicated tank and healer classes did create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style with the LFG tools. Just make people be able to fill more than 1 role on-the-fly and everything is a lot better.
Tell me how logic is it for you to say someone is lazy for not wanting to roll a whole new class from the start just to be able to do the dungeon he wanted but couldn't because of lack of tank and healer? Some people don't like to wait for a bad game design and this is what dedicated classes are.
In the trinitys defense, you could really fix that by allowing more classes have builds for more than one role and allow the players to swap easily between them.
The reason to not use trinity is more because almost every single MMO since 1996 have used it and it is time to try out alternative group dynamics so the genre can offer more than a single more or less identical one.
MMOs should experiment with different mechanics for combat, group dynamics, quests, gaining experience and so on or they will never become much better then they are right now. Sooner or later will someone figure out a really great system but that can only happen if the games experiment.
Trying out new stuff doesn't always work out but we should give it a chance, sometimes things actually get better, a few rare times even a lot better. If no-one tried new things we would never have gotten games like UO, Eve, AC, SWG or even EQ, we would all still play M59.
The interview I linked was in response to what you are saying. She asks for the devs to be clear, is there a tank in any way. They said impossible.
From the interview:
[The question] "To clear it up once and for all, are there dedicated healers and tanks or it now more Guild Wars 2 slash The Secret World? Is the Holy Trinity dead?"
[Start of answer] "Well, I can answer that to some degree. It's.. " Michaels begins, slowly. ".. the dedicated roles of the holy trinity are not going to be present in Everquest Next.
A partial answer, saying that dedicated roles are not present. They have said they don't want you standing looking at health bars and not standing in the corner hitting taunt all the time. That is what people think healing and tanking is at the moment. That is what is changing. That does not mean ping pong tactics that make no sense.
Would make sense for them to say healers are now this instead of that and they will not be the same as you expect them to be. But healing is still needed. There is still a character that will be more of a healer than others. You'd rely on them for that support and skill. Therefore, since they heal the most and you can't play normally without them or changing your group, they are a healer.
Same goes for someone in plate armor that takes big hits or aggravates the monster to attack certain toons.
Originally posted by Lourent I don't live off of mom and dad. Or, off of some kind of disability entitlement. I'd rather get to the actual game part of a game than wait on some required niche role, to group up. And no, I don't want to roll that role. Roles that are generally good for nothing but tanking a simpleton of a big bad. Or, for healing the tank. And, only good for that, with the result being that everyone else is stuck fighting the brain-dead big bads necessary for those two roles to have a guaranteed role in the game at all. Those healers and tanks are asking for the rest of us to be made captive to the same droolingly stupid tactics and AI we've played over, and over, and over again. Well, it's too late. There won't be dedicated and required healing and tanking roles. FFXIV is coming out though. Wish you the best.
Although you said it a bit rough you sort of hit the nail on the head ....many healers had a pretty good go of it in the old games . I can remember 40 man raids being brought to a stand still because of the lack of a required number of healers on a much more regular basis then tanks , dps or control characters .
Originally posted by Lourent I don't live off of mom and dad. Or, off of some kind of disability entitlement. I'd rather get to the actual game part of a game than wait on some required niche role, to group up. And no, I don't want to roll that role. Roles that are generally good for nothing but tanking a simpleton of a big bad. Or, for healing the tank. And, only good for that, with the result being that everyone else is stuck fighting the brain-dead big bads necessary for those two roles to have a guaranteed role in the game at all. Those healers and tanks are asking for the rest of us to be made captive to the same droolingly stupid tactics and AI we've played over, and over, and over again. Well, it's too late. There won't be dedicated and required healing and tanking roles. FFXIV is coming out though. Wish you the best.
Which is exactly what the people pushing the GW2 system said, but they don't get any cash from me or players like me anymore, and is widely considered a disappointment. The play it the way we tell you means people will take their business where they can get what they are looking for.
I am not saying it cant be done, but am asking to be included. EQ is near and dear to many of us, and as he pointed out, we have been playing at D&D since the 70's. There is a reason for that. You got a group of adventures, not a group of thieves or warriors, but a diverse mix with healing being one of the cornerstones of a well rounded party.
Currently, there is 1 guy at SOE that is smarter than the 1000's on this forum. Because it doesn't matter how we twist and turn, none has yet to come up with a viable solution to a no-trinity system that people like.
No, I don't believe this bullshit that comes from SOE about this. I also bet that they are reading like crazy here and sees that all the solutions that's been talked about is not positive ones. I wonder, if the smart ass at SOE has one of those solutions as the brainy one. LOL
UO, SWG, EVE, and GW1 are all games without the trinity.
Hmm, I don't know about yellow ones, because I haven't played them. In SWG, I was a TKM/Doc I think. I did pretty good as a tank/healer of myself while others was at a range distance, if I remember correctly.
Then I had the Jedi, but rarely grouped with anyone pre-cu. After, if memory doesn't fail, we pretty much all were dps. So, that's how this game will work. Everybody will know dps/heal except for those that go with dps all out, meaning no heals and they rely on others for the heals?
Ok, so after done some thinking... If it's anything like SWG, and I can be a lets say, 100% Monk and 80% Druid, I will then be happy. That means, I can pull, tank, heal, snare, root, dot, thorns... etc, etc, while in a group...
But, then we come down to the 4 weapons skills and 4 utility skills... All of a sudden I can't do all these things, and it sucks.... Feels like I'm back to 0 again, or I have to give something up to play my class.
Still interesting though, but I doubt it will be that much like SWG.
I am not saying it cant be done, but am asking to be included.
You mean, build the game completely around you, laughably stupid mobs and all, so you get a dedicated role? I've played that game over and over again. Different art styles. Different pantheon of gods. Different names for their dragons, but the same game.
The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.
Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% Healing
Character B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% Healing
Character C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% Healing
Character 35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healing
etc.
The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.
It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.
Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% Healing
Character B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% Healing
Character C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% Healing
Character 35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healing
etc.
The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.
It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
This is why I have hope... Thank you, and my fingers are crossed they have something real.
The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.
Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% Healing
Character B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% Healing
Character C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% Healing
Character 35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healing
etc.
The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.
It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
Like...
Character E: 50% Defence + 15% Offense + 35% Healing
You're then a Warrior/Cleric wearing Plate armor, but your utility skills are mainly setup for defence/tanking mode over your cleric skills. Still means you will heal pretty good, just taking damage alot better. Useful if many mobs or one big one.
Similiar to my Monk/Druid combo above. No armor of course, because a monk has to be a light armored as possible. Atleast that was the rule from EQ1.
Originally posted by ignore_me The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% HealingCharacter B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% HealingCharacter C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% HealingCharacter 35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healingetc. The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
I'm not sure that we know it won't be tab target. I think, like GW, it might be action and target.
The rest of the post I agree with. I think the most likely case if they have a healing class is that it'll be a weak healer with other utility skills. I'm a healer, and I want to heal, but I've gotta admit healers have been overpowered. A healer might make a duo worth a whole group, and a group worth 20 players. In EQ1 it made a group worth 25 I'd say with complete heal.
In GW1 A healer was worth more than any character, but to a much lesser degree. A group without a healer might overpower a group with a healer. That's just about right in my opinion, not so powerful that you NEED it, but powerful enough that healers can still play one and not be the only class that can't find a group.
Comments
MMO devs are trying to fix problems that don't exist because they haven't yet been able to make a game that is better than WoW.
This is why the only upcoming game I have bought / am buying is FFXIV:ARR - because it's like WoW, well kind of more like old WoW, and is doing the same stuff plus a few more things and (maybe) doing them better.
I mean, I loved UO back in the day, and I had some good times in SWG...
But that was before 2004. That was pre-WoW. Nothing else has honestly come close. I'm really hoping FFXIV has enough mojo to pull it off - because we all know WoW as declined quite a bit with all the simplification and questionable recent expansions.
Everyone could potentially have a heal with multiclassing... Your gear may not like it/it might not be very effective though I'd think.
Ya I am not sure when devs started thinking the trinity was a problem lol. Multiclass fixes the problem of no healer or tank. Let people have the option to play that with their main and not make a new char. Its also why FF14 is where I am at and this is coming from a huge EQ fan who really wants EQN to be the next big it!!!
Classes with abilities that heal are all I am asking for, but the key of "if they are advantageous or not" is really the generator of concern for me.
I stopped playing GW2 when four dps guys I was trying to heal berated me for 10 minutes for wasting a spot in RVR. People can be turds, but really, they were right. My interest in playing 'my way' was a liability to them.
Much of the EQN information smacks of the same DPS only mechanics.
Trinity is 100% dead in this game. You will never have to wait for a class to make a team work. That is their goal and why they removed the trinity.
It is just some conclusion people have jumped too.
Of course if SOE would reveal a bit more about its master plan people wouldn't be stumbling in the dark and taking everything to extremes.
"Whats that you say? EQnext is doing away with the minimap? Great now everyone will just insta teleport to the destination by voice command!"
Make more friends. Or grab a druid or shaman (who were more than capable of healing groups unless you were on a raid or in some very high powered area that required a CH later in the game.. and then a shaman slow was powerful enough to mitigate healing required to the point they could keep up if you didn't overpull).
Personally, I think they can mix in healers with buffing and other support stuff as well.
Totally killing off healing works fine in a historical game but for a fantasy MMO based on Forgotten realms (and Smed can say whatever he likes, Norrath is based on Faerun) totally taking away healing makes little sense.
I do not think all MMOs should have healer, like that Car wars MMO NC soft had some years back, having healers and tanks in it made no sense whatsoever, but healing is an important part of any D&D based game.
Tanking on the other hand ain't, you didn't see any tanks until the terrible D&D 4th edition a few years ago, first D&D game that actually had less US players than another RPG (Pathfinder, but in many European countries have either local games or Vampire been more popular long before that).
But even in D&D do the clerics do a lot more than tanking, they wear plate, can fight pretty OK, have mD8 in hipoints (warriors have D10, rogues D6 and wizards D4) and they are also the main buffer. So let the healers do a little more things then just heal and rez players.
That's great but I didn't ask about tanking, I already understand the vision they have laid out there. What I don't understand is why people are freaking out about healing, have they said anything about healing being gone? Or is it just conjecture/speculation? What I saw during the class panel about healing sounded more like a traditional table top RPG healer who does more than just wait for people to get hurt and maybe through a buff here and there.
Some of this post doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
You're talking like we all have infinite amount of playtime. Don't like waiting, roll another class! Don't want to tank or heal, do something else! Join a guild, make friends and etc, all good, but what if no one is online? Some problem again, waste of time searching for someone.
Having dedicated tank and healer classes did create the "sit in town and queue for X" gameplay style with the LFG tools. Just make people be able to fill more than 1 role on-the-fly and everything is a lot better.
Tell me how logic is it for you to say someone is lazy for not wanting to roll a whole new class from the start just to be able to do the dungeon he wanted but couldn't because of lack of tank and healer? Some people don't like to wait for a bad game design and this is what dedicated classes are.
Like you said. "Tank in another game." This is not the same. Similar responsibility when it comes to overarching tactics, different implementation.
I will provide you with a quote too:
If they are removing the trinity so people dont need to wait to start a team to find the right mix of players. Why would healing be any different then tanking being removed? So we dont need to wait to find a tank but we do need to wait to find a healer? lol
The interview I linked was in response to what you are saying. She asks for the devs to be clear, is there a tank in any way. They said impossible.
In the trinitys defense, you could really fix that by allowing more classes have builds for more than one role and allow the players to swap easily between them.
The reason to not use trinity is more because almost every single MMO since 1996 have used it and it is time to try out alternative group dynamics so the genre can offer more than a single more or less identical one.
MMOs should experiment with different mechanics for combat, group dynamics, quests, gaining experience and so on or they will never become much better then they are right now. Sooner or later will someone figure out a really great system but that can only happen if the games experiment.
Trying out new stuff doesn't always work out but we should give it a chance, sometimes things actually get better, a few rare times even a lot better. If no-one tried new things we would never have gotten games like UO, Eve, AC, SWG or even EQ, we would all still play M59.
From the interview:
[The question] "To clear it up once and for all, are there dedicated healers and tanks or it now more Guild Wars 2 slash The Secret World? Is the Holy Trinity dead?"
[Start of answer] "Well, I can answer that to some degree. It's.. " Michaels begins, slowly. ".. the dedicated roles of the holy trinity are not going to be present in Everquest Next.
A partial answer, saying that dedicated roles are not present. They have said they don't want you standing looking at health bars and not standing in the corner hitting taunt all the time. That is what people think healing and tanking is at the moment. That is what is changing. That does not mean ping pong tactics that make no sense.
Would make sense for them to say healers are now this instead of that and they will not be the same as you expect them to be. But healing is still needed. There is still a character that will be more of a healer than others. You'd rely on them for that support and skill. Therefore, since they heal the most and you can't play normally without them or changing your group, they are a healer.
Same goes for someone in plate armor that takes big hits or aggravates the monster to attack certain toons.
Although you said it a bit rough you sort of hit the nail on the head ....many healers had a pretty good go of it in the old games . I can remember 40 man raids being brought to a stand still because of the lack of a required number of healers on a much more regular basis then tanks , dps or control characters .
Which is exactly what the people pushing the GW2 system said, but they don't get any cash from me or players like me anymore, and is widely considered a disappointment. The play it the way we tell you means people will take their business where they can get what they are looking for.
I am not saying it cant be done, but am asking to be included. EQ is near and dear to many of us, and as he pointed out, we have been playing at D&D since the 70's. There is a reason for that. You got a group of adventures, not a group of thieves or warriors, but a diverse mix with healing being one of the cornerstones of a well rounded party.
Also, glad you have a job. Well done?
Ok, so after done some thinking... If it's anything like SWG, and I can be a lets say, 100% Monk and 80% Druid, I will then be happy. That means, I can pull, tank, heal, snare, root, dot, thorns... etc, etc, while in a group...
But, then we come down to the 4 weapons skills and 4 utility skills... All of a sudden I can't do all these things, and it sucks.... Feels like I'm back to 0 again, or I have to give something up to play my class.
Still interesting though, but I doubt it will be that much like SWG.
You mean, build the game completely around you, laughably stupid mobs and all, so you get a dedicated role? I've played that game over and over again. Different art styles. Different pantheon of gods. Different names for their dragons, but the same game.
The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.
Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% Healing
Character B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% Healing
Character C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% Healing
Character
35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healing
etc.
The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.
It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
This is why I have hope... Thank you, and my fingers are crossed they have something real.
Like...
Character E: 50% Defence + 15% Offense + 35% Healing
You're then a Warrior/Cleric wearing Plate armor, but your utility skills are mainly setup for defence/tanking mode over your cleric skills. Still means you will heal pretty good, just taking damage alot better. Useful if many mobs or one big one.
Similiar to my Monk/Druid combo above. No armor of course, because a monk has to be a light armored as possible. Atleast that was the rule from EQ1.
I think we're getting somewhere now.
I'm not sure that we know it won't be tab target. I think, like GW, it might be action and target.
The rest of the post I agree with. I think the most likely case if they have a healing class is that it'll be a weak healer with other utility skills. I'm a healer, and I want to heal, but I've gotta admit healers have been overpowered. A healer might make a duo worth a whole group, and a group worth 20 players. In EQ1 it made a group worth 25 I'd say with complete heal.
In GW1 A healer was worth more than any character, but to a much lesser degree. A group without a healer might overpower a group with a healer. That's just about right in my opinion, not so powerful that you NEED it, but powerful enough that healers can still play one and not be the only class that can't find a group.
Asdar