I am not saying it cant be done, but am asking to be included.
You mean, build the game completely around you, laughably stupid mobs and all, so you get a dedicated role? I've played that game over and over again. Different art styles. Different pantheon of gods. Different names for their dragons, but the same game.
but you mean, play dps or go home. With new art, gods, and dragons for you to DPS at.
It does seem laughable that I would want to enjoy the game.
My apologies. Really, sorry for taking up a spot in your DPS games with my wishy washy ideas of a fantasy MMORPG. I guess I will have to sell the house and move back in with mom and dad to play D&D in the basement.
Feel free to sneak, stab, sneak, spin spin spin, and then stealth followed by berating the guy with heal gear all you want. That has never been done before, and sure to be a huge commercial success.
I am not saying it cant be done, but am asking to be included.
You mean, build the game completely around you, laughably stupid mobs and all, so you get a dedicated role? I've played that game over and over again. Different art styles. Different pantheon of gods. Different names for their dragons, but the same game.
but you mean, play dps or go home. With new art, gods, and dragons for you to DPS at.
It does seem laughable that I would want to enjoy the game.
My apologies. Really, sorry for taking up a spot in your DPS games with my wishy washy ideas of a fantasy MMORPG. I guess I will have to sell the house and move back in with mom and dad to play D&D in the basement.
Feel free to sneak, stab, sneak, spin spin spin, and then stealth followed by berating the guy with heal gear all you want. That has never been done before, and sure to be a huge commercial success.
I heard FFXIV has ok for your playstyle, i.e, spamming big heals on a tank in corner with the mob turned away from the group. There you go. I think a good many of us though want to see AI of mobs begin to move beyond down-right slack-jawed dumb. "We enter. I get aggro. You heal. You stand behind and dps. Yeah, for every single encounter." Now, if you want to equip some ward/heal-other type spells to use, while helping to actually fight the mob, great. But if you want that ability to heal to be so powerful that groups can't even leave without it...Again, been there done that. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over....Yeah, you get the idea.
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
And what if there is no "Cleric" online to heal my group? Then what... Sit around waiting for someone to log on or risk the experience on a PUG "healer"?
Quit fearing change. Change is necessary to evolve into better situations. With that being said, I do not want the ability of being a certain role to go away, but I do think it needs to evolve so that if that one role is not available it doesn't inconvenience other people. Done right, the removal of trinity can be a good thing for MMO's.
This excuse is just as ridiculous now as it was in the EQ Next reveal.
They have tons of classes and could easily make several viable healers. They've also given the ability to both change classes, and multiclass. Thats THREE ways they've already rectified the problem, without having to remove key elements of fantasy rpg gameplay.
Its not change we're afraid of, its stupidity.
They already have the answer to not enough healers and tanks to get things done, multiclass. Give everyone the option to take their turn to tank and heal when people who like to play that type of role is not around. Lots of people in Rift (myself in cluded) played as many roles as they could to make teams work. They better have something really good if they have removed the trinity. I think its just gona be pong.
If it based around AI, why not snare the mob and voilà! The mob attacks the tank. Can't get to healer. Give that toon something that plays against the mob personality, and he will prioritize that character (your tank) over the other melee.
How is that pong? Creative players will win in this game, people need to start thinking outside the box.
Thats called aggro control and thats not in this game. You will have no control over how what mob hits what player. Be it by skills or actions. You can control the battle field but unless they have collision tanking. Then each battle would have to be set up to keep the defensive class in the area that was getting hit. Remove from your mind any way to get the mob to do what you want and now tell me how a class can tank. SoE was also very clear there was only defensive roles (maybe pass on buffs to team mates) but you in no way could tank. I get your pain, I wish there was. Im not saying this to troll but you cant tank.
You're assuming that the mobs are not phased by anything the player does. That is opposite what they said they wanted to achieve. They said the monsters will react to players, so ... outsmart the mob vs. out dps them. Force them to do what you want them to do, rather than having them control you.
They said nothing about snap aggro for certain abilities, they only talked about general behavior and high level play-style. No standing on corner hitting taunt.
They didn't say "There is no way for you to tank." They said, there wont be a "Tank" like you are used to.
As for your question in orange, I say that plate armor is in the game for a reason. Snap aggro is still a possibility that I very much see being in the game because of storybricks. If monsters are infuriated by certain actions, have the character you want to take hits perform those actions. Have that character wear heavy armor. Have that character use defensive skills and a shield.
"Tanking" is nothing more than absorbing the brunt of the damage, and mitigating it enough to make the fight worthwhile. I don't see why that can't happen.
Devs words...
"It will be impossible for someone to be what you would call a tank in another game - "
End game, impossible, we will have defensive roles but no tanking. Think what that means. Some knock backs? Stuns? Maybe some buffs to bolster our teams? None of that is tanking.
Like you said. "Tank in another game." This is not the same. Similar responsibility when it comes to overarching tactics, different implementation.
I will provide you with a quote too:
There will be different classes and different build that are angled towards some of the roles, so there might be a class or a build or a class that is more tank-ish but you don't NEED that person to accomplish that goal and content. You can go in there without having somebody who is the stereotypical tank.
With that, how can you say that there will be absolutely no tanking? The role will be in place, there are ways around the NEED for the role as they say, but it still exists.
There is no 'stand in corner hit taunt button'. But, there are other tanking methods. I never ONLY stood in a corner as a tank, that part of the role is gone, but not the entire role. You are just hoping to complain about the topic it seems?
I like how you highlight in another game but you miss the impossible. So its not that we wont have tanks, its the SoE has come up with a way other then what we have seen in any MMO to date to give us the birth of a new type of tanking? You really missing what the devs are saying in a dreamy eyed hopeful state. Maybe it will be great but what many are saying here is we have heard this before. This is not the first time this has been promised. GW2 was the last game to spout this. The outcome was a lack of team synergy. But hay, if they really have found something new and its fun and teams wont end up being zergs and you can have large numbers of players working together to do things like PvE raids that are again not zergs. Im all for it. I just have very large doubts. I just wished they has said nothing about the trinity till they were willing to tell us what they think they have. Cuse the more I read the more it sounds like GW2 and we really dont need another GW2. Its a candy shop and fun to visit but most people like to spend their time at a sit down meal.
I'm not sure why there's this assumption that because guild wars 2 didn't handle a lack of trinity well, it somehow means the entire genre must have the trinity.
That's a lot to lay on one game dontchathink?
Why not bring things down to reality instead. Guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well means...that guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well.
What it doesn't mean is "It's impossible for an MMO with action based combat to have a lack of trinity and play well".
If it did, the trinity would be SOL too, because there's been a myriad of tab target trinity games that played like crap.
I'm not sure why there's this assumption that because guild wars 2 didn't handle a lack of trinity well, it somehow means the entire genre must have the trinity.
That's a lot to lay on one game dontchathink?
Why not bring things down to reality instead. Guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well means...that guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well.
What it doesn't mean is "It's impossible for an MMO with action based combat to have a lack of trinity and play well".
If it did, the trinity would be SOL too, because there's been a myriad of tab target trinity games that played like crap.
Honestly, I have yet to see a good argument for "Guild Wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well". They all seem to come down to essentially "I miss being able to heal", or "I don't understand the combat", or some combination of the two.
While some of the fights in GW2 are painfully easy, the same can be said for MOST trinity games. Furthermore, we've already seen that what makes a game (or its combat) be 'zergy' has nothing to do with whether its a trinity or not. It doesn't even matter if it's action combat or tab based. MMOs will always be 'zergy' as long as we want to have a lot of people playing in the same space. They're called crowds, mobs, etc. and its a part of human nature people exercise every day in real life.
Beyond that, what part of it 'doesn't work?'. Each roll plays differently from the others. They each have their strengths & weaknesses. The group dynamic is constantly changing, where every few updates certain classes are prefered for different tasks. Furthermore, this dynamic varies from PvE, dungeons, WvW, to sPvP / tPvP. You don't need combat to be so painfully simple that everything is either 'tanking, healing, or DPS'. You can choose to play GW2 that way, but there's a lot more that goes into the combat. Furthermore, other games (like GW1) have shown the potential for such systems to make combat far more dynamic & interesting, because you aren' just focusing on the 3 basic components of MMO combat (tank, heal, damage), you have to pay attention to skill types, counters, utility, etc.
My name is Chris, and I am a healer. Healers, I love to play them. I know that is abhorrent behavior for many of you, but I love it. My EQ Next fervor is tainted with fear. Fear they don’t want me or my kind.
I am excited about EQ Next in a big way, but I am also concerned the multiclass system will be much like GW2 and take a crap on anyone who wants to heal. I really wanted to play that game, but it seemed at every turn the dev team put things in place to keep my kind out. DPS Wars was no fun for us support class gamers.
It is sad, but ultimately “I am afraid my play style is now considered niche and I won’t have a place in the new EQ.”
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
I believe in creative destruction, am interested in the new AI, love SOEmote, but accept when things change some things might go away. I am still sadden though.
I still want to heal. In this game. Please SOE, let me heal.
My name is Chris, and I am healer.
Two options come to mind.
One - bring over any of your guildies or friends from any current MMOs you might be playing. Chances are they like how you heal and will not focus on that aspect of their character templates.
Two - find a new set of mates to hang with in EQN that don't like to heal.
I'll throw in a third option: wait and see. It might turn out okay. Or it might just be that this new MMO isn't for you and you'll need to find another.
I am a healer too, and am not seeing a clear path for the healing class in EQN. If everyone can do everything thats one thing, but if no one class is required to play as a group...this is bewildering. I really like the OPs original post and feel strongly that this sort of thing should be sent directly to the developers.
Also, its too soon to give a final verdict. I will hold off on passing judgement just yet, but I am concerned at the lack of a defined healer support role. I hope this is not the future of MMO classes where time and skill invested and player responsibility is all but null and void.
My name is Chris, and I am a healer. Healers, I love to play them. I know that is abhorrent behavior for many of you, but I love it. My EQ Next fervor is tainted with fear. Fear they don’t want me or my kind.
I am excited about EQ Next in a big way, but I am also concerned the multiclass system will be much like GW2 and take a crap on anyone who wants to heal. I really wanted to play that game, but it seemed at every turn the dev team put things in place to keep my kind out. DPS Wars was no fun for us support class gamers.
It is sad, but ultimately “I am afraid my play style is now considered niche and I won’t have a place in the new EQ.”
One of the rules in table tops through to MMOS, has always been “Don’t leave the Cleric behind.”, but it seems the new games are doing just that.
I believe in creative destruction, am interested in the new AI, love SOEmote, but accept when things change some things might go away. I am still sadden though.
I still want to heal. In this game. Please SOE, let me heal.
My name is Chris, and I am healer.
Well, sorry to break it to you, but the healer playstyle (as well as the main tank playstyle) has been a niche for quite a long time. They've always been the least played out of the 3 archetypes, and it's only gotten worse over time.
That said, I do understand the appeal of playing healers, and in certain games I have had a lot of fun healing. However, the problem is not necessarily you as a player. The problem is more so, that there aren't enough people like you playing these games. Healers & tanks are often hard to find, and with a trinity game that means that most of your players cannot enjoy the best content, because they can't always get a group to do it. That's a problem.
That said, I'd strongly suggest you re-evaluate your view of non-trinity games. I understand you don't like GW2, that's fine. However, there are still people who have found ways to play that game as a support class and have a blast doing it. Guardians, Elementalists, & Engineers are particularly valuable as they not only have a lot of group healing potential, but they buff allies, and can setup combo fields (and finishers) to trigger beneficial group effects. There's been a few (ableit not many) games out there in the MMO-sphere that have found room for support roles without needing a trinity. It's common to mistake these games for 'a DPS fest', but that's not necessarily true.
It's akin to watching a trinity fight and evaluating every class (including healers & tanks) based on the DPS meters, and nothing else.
I am a healer too, and am not seeing a clear path for the healing class in EQN. If everyone can do everything thats one thing, but if no one class is required to play as a group...this is bewildering. I really like the OPs original post and feel strongly that this sort of thing should be sent directly to the developers.
Also, its too soon to give a final verdict. I will hold off on passing judgement just yet, but I am concerned at the lack of a defined healer support role. I hope this is not the future of MMO classes where time and skill invested and player responsibility is all but null and void.
Well, based on what I've read so far, they just don't want dedicated healers (i.e. people who do nothing but sit back & spam big heals). However, that doesn't mean there won't be healers, or classes that focus more on group heals than other things. Other games have done it. The trick is to focus on the customization which non-trinity oriented mechanics provide, instead of on how best to reinvent the same roles.
A lot of people I see struggling with this newer method of designing classes seems to come from an urge to fit them into the same old boxes as people were used to. It's doable, but by doing so you are essentially limiting your ability to have fun without realizing it. With all new things it's best to explore your options, find what's fun for you, and not worry about how it compares to 10-20 year old systems from back when until you've tried it.
OP I hear you. I like playing all sorts of types of characters including healers and tanks. It provides me with variety in a game, killing the trinity concept very quickly puts me off a game.
For all those moaning about having to wait! YEH THAT IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN! You make friends and you play together try to sync play times and have fun!
EQNext is another game that is slowly hurting my interest in the genre. Soon we will all "have it now" and we will all be dps types running around with little individuality.
Quite frankly tired of it.... heck even mobas have tanks and healers! If the trinity is so bad why do other genres adopt the concept.
I agree with this completely. Far from being innovative or "new", the approach they are taking with EQN is a copycat of of GW2, Rift, and other games aiming for the same mass-market mentality that is destroying the genre. Without the trinity, without tanks and healers and support classes, it won't be EQ "Next" - it won't be EQ anything. EverRift, maybe, or QuestWars, but EverQuest? Not even close.
I'm not against progress and innovation, I'm just opposed to this copy-cat stupidity. Even WoW is going down this road, where almost all the content - outside of end-game raiding - no longer requires specific class roles, or even a group. Its all instant gratification EZ-mode, all the time. Which again, is against every design principle that made EverQuest what it is. Somebody mentioned FFXIV - there is an example of multi-classing done right. Supporting the traditional roles and group-oriented gameplay, while not locking the *player* into a single class. Vanguard is another, which has kept the integrity of the classes, while making it easier to solo. If EQN doesn't change course on this, I know that I for sure will be going elsewhere.
OP I hear you. I like playing all sorts of types of characters including healers and tanks. It provides me with variety in a game, killing the trinity concept very quickly puts me off a game.
For all those moaning about having to wait! YEH THAT IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN! You make friends and you play together try to sync play times and have fun!
EQNext is another game that is slowly hurting my interest in the genre. Soon we will all "have it now" and we will all be dps types running around with little individuality.
Quite frankly tired of it.... heck even mobas have tanks and healers! If the trinity is so bad why do other genres adopt the concept.
I agree with this completely. Far from being innovative or "new", the approach they are taking with EQN is a copycat of of GW2, Rift, and other games aiming for the same mass-market mentality that is destroying the genre. Without the trinity, without tanks and healers and support classes, it won't be EQ "Next" - it won't be EQ anything. EverRift, maybe, or QuestWars, but EverQuest? Not even close.
I'm not against progress and innovation, I'm just opposed to this copy-cat stupidity. Even WoW is going down this road, where almost all the content - outside of end-game raiding - no longer requires specific class roles, or even a group. Its all instant gratification EZ-mode, all the time. Which again, is against every design principle that made EverQuest what it is. Somebody mentioned FFXIV - there is an example of multi-classing done right. Supporting the traditional roles and group-oriented gameplay, while not locking the *player* into a single class. Vanguard is another, which has kept the integrity of the classes, while making it easier to solo. If EQN doesn't change course on this, I know that I for sure will be going elsewhere.
You are being a bit harsh to RIFT, it has a solid trinity, if anything RIFTs trinity is a bit shallow as it is truly a trinity of tank/dps/heals.
To those suggesting you can still be heals but will not have to watch bars etc... you are right...but who would bother bringing you and slowing down the run.
The only way to make it so that people DONT need heals (as was stated in the panel discussion) is to make is so...you guessed it... you DONT need heals.
Now given you will not need heals or tanks and they indicated they wanted to remove the NEED for any particular class...
We are left with a game design where what ever random class make up you have will be good enough to do ALL the content.
Lets not forget when they talked about no need for heals it was with an EQ1 RAID example they used, so they are talking about the full span of content.
Where does that leave the player and his/her 5 mates who all want to play ranged DPS or rogue/theif toons...
Either disappointed because they actually CANT do the content without getting CC/Heals?Tank etc.
Or playing a game made so easy ANY combination can do it.
P.S. they never actually said you could even make a toon into a tank..they said you could make a toon...TANKISH
that... to me... sounds like the way in GW2 where you can make a guardian TANKISH (3 hits to kill it rather than 2)
Personally, I think they can mix in healers with buffing and other support stuff as well.
Totally killing off healing works fine in a historical game but for a fantasy MMO based on Forgotten realms (and Smed can say whatever he likes, Norrath is based on Faerun) totally taking away healing makes little sense.
I do not think all MMOs should have healer, like that Car wars MMO NC soft had some years back, having healers and tanks in it made no sense whatsoever, but healing is an important part of any D&D based game.
Tanking on the other hand ain't, you didn't see any tanks until the terrible D&D 4th edition a few years ago, first D&D game that actually had less US players than another RPG (Pathfinder, but in many European countries have either local games or Vampire been more popular long before that).
But even in D&D do the clerics do a lot more than tanking, they wear plate, can fight pretty OK, have mD8 in hipoints (warriors have D10, rogues D6 and wizards D4) and they are also the main buffer. So let the healers do a little more things then just heal and rez players.
Tanking has not only been a part of video games since well before 1996 and MMOs, it was also used in DnD in different ways (since the beginning), in various RPGs, and more importantly, in all forms of combat throughout history. Its the nature of combat, there are those who play the grunt (tank) role on the front lines preventing other combatants from reaching your medics, sharpshooters and other support roles that command or do high dps (like artillery). Its just good sound logic for a video game to utilize "the trinity" when you want to promote interdependency and distinct fantasy classes (casters, healers, light armor melee and heavy infantry or tanks).
Yeah I agree, I hope they are taking a GW1 approach where you could still have dedicated healers, or you could go without them and everyone could take a few self heals / group heals.
GW2 took it too far and got rid of any reasonable representation of roles. Yes you can still spec slightly towards a role, but its so indistinguishable from the base class it is just pointless.
While I am glad to see the end of forced targeting from tanks, I still like the crowd control, support and healing roles. In fact, those three roles are the main reason I fell in love with the Everquest franchise in the first instance. The types of classes that fill these roles in EQ are iconic and hasn't been beaten for style or flair in 15 years of MMOs in my opinion.
Personally, I think they can mix in healers with buffing and other support stuff as well.
Totally killing off healing works fine in a historical game but for a fantasy MMO based on Forgotten realms (and Smed can say whatever he likes, Norrath is based on Faerun) totally taking away healing makes little sense.
I do not think all MMOs should have healer, like that Car wars MMO NC soft had some years back, having healers and tanks in it made no sense whatsoever, but healing is an important part of any D&D based game.
Tanking on the other hand ain't, you didn't see any tanks until the terrible D&D 4th edition a few years ago, first D&D game that actually had less US players than another RPG (Pathfinder, but in many European countries have either local games or Vampire been more popular long before that).
But even in D&D do the clerics do a lot more than tanking, they wear plate, can fight pretty OK, have mD8 in hipoints (warriors have D10, rogues D6 and wizards D4) and they are also the main buffer. So let the healers do a little more things then just heal and rez players.
I pretty much agree Loke.. I played a Pally in AD&D mostly and enjoyed it.. Even EQ original has limited trinity, as it felt more in line with AD&D then today's AOE taunt fest that WoW became.. There were many of times in EQ, our meat shield was a Ranger.. LOL I loved to call them mana sieves.. However, I have this problem with people complaining about the tanking and taunting thing.. I have news for many of you, if you look at any historical group combat, the meat shields were up front, and generals and squishies to the back.. Whether it be Picket's Charge at Gettysburg, or Bunker Hill decades before, your main concern in any hand to hand combat is the MAN RIGHT IN YOUR FACE, not the squishy or general far behind him.. So lets stop with the smart AI bs about who mobs will attack first..
In my opinion the class role trinity system took a turn for the worst approx. 6 years ago or so.. And because of that games like GW2 wants to right the ship, but I think they did it too much and homogenized the classes into dps hybrids.. For a fantasy game, trinity works well.. IF done correctly and for me that means bringing back:
Charming
Rezzing
Healing
Taunting
Snaring
Rooting
Buffing
De-buffing
Illusions
Memory wipes
Levitation
Invisabilty
Summoning
Banish
You get the idea and I think many of these fun tools were removed for convenient sake.. The trinity needs to back to it's roots and tweaked a bit for fun.. Dammit.. I MISS my wolf form while kiting mobs lmao
Yeah I agree, I hope they are taking a GW1 approach where you could still have dedicated healers, or you could go without them and everyone could take a few self heals / group heals.
GW2 took it too far and got rid of any reasonable representation of roles. Yes you can still spec slightly towards a role, but its so indistinguishable from the base class it is just pointless.
While I am glad to see the end of forced targeting from tanks, I still like the crowd control, support and healing roles. In fact, those three roles are the main reason I fell in love with the Everquest franchise in the first instance. The types of classes that fill these roles in EQ are iconic and hasn't been beaten for style or flair in 15 years of MMOs in my opinion.
What you don't seem to understand is, without a tank there in some capacity, the other roles will cease to exist. Even if tanks don't possess the magical taunt abilities, they still need to have the ability to take damage and protect the less armored roles, or else the entire system collapses and everyone becomes a "de facto tank", regardless of their armor or abilities. I just find it ironic that the same people that went through so much trouble to prevent "required roles", intend to alienate an astounding number of players by forcing them into a playstyle that was never meant for their preferred class or role. Its just baffling that they don't understand what made Everquest fun for so many players, was learning to play your caster, healer or dps efficiently while minding the aggro metagame and allowing your tank to do his job. The fact that this system (and so many others) became a complete joke in WoW and its subsequent clones is NOT an excuse SOE. It was once a wonderful system and could and should be the foundation for combat and AI in the future.
People need to realize that this lack of structure does not enable more intelligent combat; quite the contrary - it prohibits it.
I don't mind playing clerics in MMOs...but only for soloing or playing with my guild. What I dislike is getting tells from players (PUGS usually) begging me to join their group because they need a healer. The less gameplay depends on one type of role, the better. As others have stated, it sucks having to wait for that key role in order to finish content.
So you hate being desired by other people in a massively multiplayer game? It sounds like you would be more comfortable playing a dungeon crawler like Diablo 3, Grim Dawn or Paths of Exile where you can start private games with your friends.
The problem isn't Trinity design - it's bad trinity design.
Bad trinity design = Tanks can generate so much threat, they can AoE tank an entire dungeon and never worry about healers/DPS pulling aggro, so the DPS have no need to worry about debuffs or CC of any kind, just doing as much AoE DPS as possible to try and out-damage each other and "win" the damage meters, so the healer just has to keep a few HoTs on the tank, maybe spam the occasional heal or AoE heal when the DPS takes incidental damage.
Bad trinity design also = having a mismatch of tanks/healers and DPS so you don't have enough potential healer/tank players because the role choices are limited and the ones you have are no fun to play because they are so easy.
Good trinity design works - and will always work - and (hopefully) will always have a place in AAA MMORPGs.
Personally, I think they can mix in healers with buffing and other support stuff as well.
Totally killing off healing works fine in a historical game but for a fantasy MMO based on Forgotten realms (and Smed can say whatever he likes, Norrath is based on Faerun) totally taking away healing makes little sense.
I do not think all MMOs should have healer, like that Car wars MMO NC soft had some years back, having healers and tanks in it made no sense whatsoever, but healing is an important part of any D&D based game.
Tanking on the other hand ain't, you didn't see any tanks until the terrible D&D 4th edition a few years ago, first D&D game that actually had less US players than another RPG (Pathfinder, but in many European countries have either local games or Vampire been more popular long before that).
But even in D&D do the clerics do a lot more than tanking, they wear plate, can fight pretty OK, have mD8 in hipoints (warriors have D10, rogues D6 and wizards D4) and they are also the main buffer. So let the healers do a little more things then just heal and rez players.
Tanking has not only been a part of video games since well before 1996 and MMOs, it was also used in DnD in different ways (since the beginning), in various RPGs, and more importantly, in all forms of combat throughout history. Its the nature of combat, there are those who play the grunt (tank) role on the front lines preventing other combatants from reaching your medics, sharpshooters and other support roles that command or do high dps (like artillery). Its just good sound logic for a video game to utilize "the trinity" when you want to promote interdependency and distinct fantasy classes (casters, healers, light armor melee and heavy infantry or tanks).
Exactly right. The whole game was based on D&D. The high fantasy setting, the races, the classes, stats, levels, the role of religion - it was all from D&D. Remember when alignment mattered so much? Totally D&D. The direction I think the franchise should take is back to those roots, not away from them. That's what I'd want from an EQ Next. Back to the lore and game dynamics of classic EverQuest, with an updated engine. No portals - meaningful travel, with SoW and caster ports being of value again. Good crafting, and a functioning auction system. But leave the core system intact. Tank-less, healer-less, no slower, no mezzer - that's not EverQuest.
It's time to put a end to the healing and tanking roles.
A mob shouldnt be dumb enough to get taunted by a big tank as much as it does not make since that a wolf would be able to taunt a sheep.
The healing role shouldnt be as op as they are in other mmo's. It should be hard to support one player and not possible to support everyone in one room like in wow.
It's time to put a end to the healing and tanking roles.
A mob shouldnt be dumb enough to get taunted by a big tank as much as it does not make since that a wolf would be able to taunt a sheep.
The healing role shouldnt be as op as they are in other mmo's. It should be hard to support one player and not possible to support everyone in one room like in wow.
The quote from SOE Live was that you cannot play a Dedicated Tank or Healer. So what is the meaning of dedicated? I don't think they meant to say that you cannot be stalwart in your pursuit of your job. They probably meant that you cannot be exclusively a Tank or Healer.
Character A: 33% Defense + 33% Offense + 33% Healing
Character B: 50% Defense + 35% Offense + 15% Healing
Character C: 30% Defense + 60% Offense + 10% Healing
Character 35% Defense + 27% Offense + 38% Healing
etc.
The lack of taunts will not affect Healing significantly, but the fact that there may be no real meaty heals or Targetted/AoE Heals will change the game for the Heal-Heavy class into a pro-active and quick reaction situation that may require the "Healer" to intervene and have their Friendly Target cease fire and move.
It's not tab target healing, and I feel you on that, but there has to be a way to maximize the ability to help friendly players in the game. I really hope that they do some sort of compromise that results in DPS being part of the solution and not the whole solution. I like playing Tank types, and Healing types, as well as support types. If they don't pull out something great on that front the game will be a gimmick with a half-assed MMO slapped on it.
This is exactly what I'm hoping.
I don't expect the trinity I know it's gone I got that through my head but to have no healing at all or every class has a self heal like GW2 just isn't gonna cut it for me and I will be moving on from this one........
I could even deal with the AE heals or cones as someone mentioned as long as there actually useful in GW2 the healing was so underpowered that it was never worth it over just dpsing the mob down IMO....
I'm seeing maybe things along the line of Neverwinter's Astral Seal such as you place something on the mob then everyone that attacks it heals.....
I just can't shake this feeling were gonna have ping pong.........
What is so fun about having a healer class? I understand why people like the support role dont get me wrong but it has tuned down gameplay for so many years now!
Its boring to have a game where the content has to make the healer feel like he is doing a good job else it would not be fun. So the mob delivers a big hit every once in a while but giving the healer enough time to heal players (limits ai and gameplay)
Then games came out where you can actually dodge attacks. Healers felt unneeded in the beginning of ktera for example because it was more fun and faster to go without one and you just tried to keep ur team alive by switching players back and forth. So all the mobs were given one big aoe undodgeable ability that was there for the healers to heal up. Ofcourse these attacks took the healers cooldown grealty in consideration. and now they had succesfully given a reason as to why a healer was needed in certain instances. In my opinion this really limits how you play the game pve wise.
Full foccused healer classes, Aggro systems i cant wait to see it all dissapear. and healer classes can limit you way to much in pvp cases them being needed at all times is not a good thing imo.
It's time to put a end to the healing and tanking roles.
A mob shouldnt be dumb enough to get taunted by a big tank as much as it does not make since that a wolf would be able to taunt a sheep.
The healing role shouldnt be as op as they are in other mmo's. It should be hard to support one player and not possible to support everyone in one room like in wow.
The AI could be smarter, certainly would help the gameplay. However, if AI was really really 'smart', how would it behave? It would drop stuns/snares and attack either the thing hitting it the hardest (biggest threat to its life), or the thing healing the things hitting it. If AI was smart enough.
So that means it will be a DPS pong, but the question still remains on how they handle heals. The GW2 vid posted here shows how lame a DPS zerg can be, and the little green ticks of heals for some random attribute is the shinning example of how they tried to force everyone to play one way. Beautiful game, amazing worlds, but I just did not have a class I was interested in playing.
If the AI was truly smart, it would hide with 50 of its buddies in the woods and jump us from behind, or see us coming and pick flight vs fight.... Run away!! Run away!!
I am sorry OP. Your kind simply isn't wanted in gaming anymore. I should say "our" kind as I usually healer as well. In their quest to make every class exactly the same developers have decided the best way to do that is to let everyone be an army of one. Little Johnny doesn't like team work. Being forced to rely on others would mean the little guy may have to adhere to some type of social norm in order to ever get invited to anything. How on earth could he get away with being a troll then? Free Johnny!!!! Down with healers and class roles! Run Free little guy, run free!!
You are a powerful Sarcasimancer! You are right though, its that mass market appeal they are looking for.
Little Johnny, he likes his double kills on the Halos more than reading Tolkien. Reading is for nerds....
Comments
but you mean, play dps or go home. With new art, gods, and dragons for you to DPS at.
It does seem laughable that I would want to enjoy the game.
My apologies. Really, sorry for taking up a spot in your DPS games with my wishy washy ideas of a fantasy MMORPG. I guess I will have to sell the house and move back in with mom and dad to play D&D in the basement.
Feel free to sneak, stab, sneak, spin spin spin, and then stealth followed by berating the guy with heal gear all you want. That has never been done before, and sure to be a huge commercial success.
I heard FFXIV has ok for your playstyle, i.e, spamming big heals on a tank in corner with the mob turned away from the group. There you go. I think a good many of us though want to see AI of mobs begin to move beyond down-right slack-jawed dumb. "We enter. I get aggro. You heal. You stand behind and dps. Yeah, for every single encounter." Now, if you want to equip some ward/heal-other type spells to use, while helping to actually fight the mob, great. But if you want that ability to heal to be so powerful that groups can't even leave without it...Again, been there done that. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over....Yeah, you get the idea.
I like how you highlight in another game but you miss the impossible. So its not that we wont have tanks, its the SoE has come up with a way other then what we have seen in any MMO to date to give us the birth of a new type of tanking? You really missing what the devs are saying in a dreamy eyed hopeful state. Maybe it will be great but what many are saying here is we have heard this before. This is not the first time this has been promised. GW2 was the last game to spout this. The outcome was a lack of team synergy. But hay, if they really have found something new and its fun and teams wont end up being zergs and you can have large numbers of players working together to do things like PvE raids that are again not zergs. Im all for it. I just have very large doubts. I just wished they has said nothing about the trinity till they were willing to tell us what they think they have. Cuse the more I read the more it sounds like GW2 and we really dont need another GW2. Its a candy shop and fun to visit but most people like to spend their time at a sit down meal.
I'm not sure why there's this assumption that because guild wars 2 didn't handle a lack of trinity well, it somehow means the entire genre must have the trinity.
That's a lot to lay on one game dontchathink?
Why not bring things down to reality instead. Guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well means...that guild wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well.
What it doesn't mean is "It's impossible for an MMO with action based combat to have a lack of trinity and play well".
If it did, the trinity would be SOL too, because there's been a myriad of tab target trinity games that played like crap.
Honestly, I have yet to see a good argument for "Guild Wars 2 didn't do lack of trinity well". They all seem to come down to essentially "I miss being able to heal", or "I don't understand the combat", or some combination of the two.
While some of the fights in GW2 are painfully easy, the same can be said for MOST trinity games. Furthermore, we've already seen that what makes a game (or its combat) be 'zergy' has nothing to do with whether its a trinity or not. It doesn't even matter if it's action combat or tab based. MMOs will always be 'zergy' as long as we want to have a lot of people playing in the same space. They're called crowds, mobs, etc. and its a part of human nature people exercise every day in real life.
Beyond that, what part of it 'doesn't work?'. Each roll plays differently from the others. They each have their strengths & weaknesses. The group dynamic is constantly changing, where every few updates certain classes are prefered for different tasks. Furthermore, this dynamic varies from PvE, dungeons, WvW, to sPvP / tPvP. You don't need combat to be so painfully simple that everything is either 'tanking, healing, or DPS'. You can choose to play GW2 that way, but there's a lot more that goes into the combat. Furthermore, other games (like GW1) have shown the potential for such systems to make combat far more dynamic & interesting, because you aren' just focusing on the 3 basic components of MMO combat (tank, heal, damage), you have to pay attention to skill types, counters, utility, etc.
So, again, how exactly does this not work?
Two options come to mind.
One - bring over any of your guildies or friends from any current MMOs you might be playing. Chances are they like how you heal and will not focus on that aspect of their character templates.
Two - find a new set of mates to hang with in EQN that don't like to heal.
I'll throw in a third option: wait and see. It might turn out okay. Or it might just be that this new MMO isn't for you and you'll need to find another.
I am a healer too, and am not seeing a clear path for the healing class in EQN. If everyone can do everything thats one thing, but if no one class is required to play as a group...this is bewildering. I really like the OPs original post and feel strongly that this sort of thing should be sent directly to the developers.
Also, its too soon to give a final verdict. I will hold off on passing judgement just yet, but I am concerned at the lack of a defined healer support role. I hope this is not the future of MMO classes where time and skill invested and player responsibility is all but null and void.
Well, sorry to break it to you, but the healer playstyle (as well as the main tank playstyle) has been a niche for quite a long time. They've always been the least played out of the 3 archetypes, and it's only gotten worse over time.
That said, I do understand the appeal of playing healers, and in certain games I have had a lot of fun healing. However, the problem is not necessarily you as a player. The problem is more so, that there aren't enough people like you playing these games. Healers & tanks are often hard to find, and with a trinity game that means that most of your players cannot enjoy the best content, because they can't always get a group to do it. That's a problem.
That said, I'd strongly suggest you re-evaluate your view of non-trinity games. I understand you don't like GW2, that's fine. However, there are still people who have found ways to play that game as a support class and have a blast doing it. Guardians, Elementalists, & Engineers are particularly valuable as they not only have a lot of group healing potential, but they buff allies, and can setup combo fields (and finishers) to trigger beneficial group effects. There's been a few (ableit not many) games out there in the MMO-sphere that have found room for support roles without needing a trinity. It's common to mistake these games for 'a DPS fest', but that's not necessarily true.
It's akin to watching a trinity fight and evaluating every class (including healers & tanks) based on the DPS meters, and nothing else.
Well, based on what I've read so far, they just don't want dedicated healers (i.e. people who do nothing but sit back & spam big heals). However, that doesn't mean there won't be healers, or classes that focus more on group heals than other things. Other games have done it. The trick is to focus on the customization which non-trinity oriented mechanics provide, instead of on how best to reinvent the same roles.
A lot of people I see struggling with this newer method of designing classes seems to come from an urge to fit them into the same old boxes as people were used to. It's doable, but by doing so you are essentially limiting your ability to have fun without realizing it. With all new things it's best to explore your options, find what's fun for you, and not worry about how it compares to 10-20 year old systems from back when until you've tried it.
I agree with this completely. Far from being innovative or "new", the approach they are taking with EQN is a copycat of of GW2, Rift, and other games aiming for the same mass-market mentality that is destroying the genre. Without the trinity, without tanks and healers and support classes, it won't be EQ "Next" - it won't be EQ anything. EverRift, maybe, or QuestWars, but EverQuest? Not even close.
I'm not against progress and innovation, I'm just opposed to this copy-cat stupidity. Even WoW is going down this road, where almost all the content - outside of end-game raiding - no longer requires specific class roles, or even a group. Its all instant gratification EZ-mode, all the time. Which again, is against every design principle that made EverQuest what it is. Somebody mentioned FFXIV - there is an example of multi-classing done right. Supporting the traditional roles and group-oriented gameplay, while not locking the *player* into a single class. Vanguard is another, which has kept the integrity of the classes, while making it easier to solo. If EQN doesn't change course on this, I know that I for sure will be going elsewhere.
You are being a bit harsh to RIFT, it has a solid trinity, if anything RIFTs trinity is a bit shallow as it is truly a trinity of tank/dps/heals.
To those suggesting you can still be heals but will not have to watch bars etc... you are right...but who would bother bringing you and slowing down the run.
The only way to make it so that people DONT need heals (as was stated in the panel discussion) is to make is so...you guessed it... you DONT need heals.
Now given you will not need heals or tanks and they indicated they wanted to remove the NEED for any particular class...
We are left with a game design where what ever random class make up you have will be good enough to do ALL the content.
Lets not forget when they talked about no need for heals it was with an EQ1 RAID example they used, so they are talking about the full span of content.
Where does that leave the player and his/her 5 mates who all want to play ranged DPS or rogue/theif toons...
Either disappointed because they actually CANT do the content without getting CC/Heals?Tank etc.
Or playing a game made so easy ANY combination can do it.
P.S. they never actually said you could even make a toon into a tank..they said you could make a toon...TANKISH
that... to me... sounds like the way in GW2 where you can make a guardian TANKISH (3 hits to kill it rather than 2)
Tanking has not only been a part of video games since well before 1996 and MMOs, it was also used in DnD in different ways (since the beginning), in various RPGs, and more importantly, in all forms of combat throughout history. Its the nature of combat, there are those who play the grunt (tank) role on the front lines preventing other combatants from reaching your medics, sharpshooters and other support roles that command or do high dps (like artillery). Its just good sound logic for a video game to utilize "the trinity" when you want to promote interdependency and distinct fantasy classes (casters, healers, light armor melee and heavy infantry or tanks).
Yeah I agree, I hope they are taking a GW1 approach where you could still have dedicated healers, or you could go without them and everyone could take a few self heals / group heals.
GW2 took it too far and got rid of any reasonable representation of roles. Yes you can still spec slightly towards a role, but its so indistinguishable from the base class it is just pointless.
While I am glad to see the end of forced targeting from tanks, I still like the crowd control, support and healing roles. In fact, those three roles are the main reason I fell in love with the Everquest franchise in the first instance. The types of classes that fill these roles in EQ are iconic and hasn't been beaten for style or flair in 15 years of MMOs in my opinion.
I pretty much agree Loke.. I played a Pally in AD&D mostly and enjoyed it.. Even EQ original has limited trinity, as it felt more in line with AD&D then today's AOE taunt fest that WoW became.. There were many of times in EQ, our meat shield was a Ranger.. LOL I loved to call them mana sieves.. However, I have this problem with people complaining about the tanking and taunting thing.. I have news for many of you, if you look at any historical group combat, the meat shields were up front, and generals and squishies to the back.. Whether it be Picket's Charge at Gettysburg, or Bunker Hill decades before, your main concern in any hand to hand combat is the MAN RIGHT IN YOUR FACE, not the squishy or general far behind him.. So lets stop with the smart AI bs about who mobs will attack first..
In my opinion the class role trinity system took a turn for the worst approx. 6 years ago or so.. And because of that games like GW2 wants to right the ship, but I think they did it too much and homogenized the classes into dps hybrids.. For a fantasy game, trinity works well.. IF done correctly and for me that means bringing back:
What you don't seem to understand is, without a tank there in some capacity, the other roles will cease to exist. Even if tanks don't possess the magical taunt abilities, they still need to have the ability to take damage and protect the less armored roles, or else the entire system collapses and everyone becomes a "de facto tank", regardless of their armor or abilities. I just find it ironic that the same people that went through so much trouble to prevent "required roles", intend to alienate an astounding number of players by forcing them into a playstyle that was never meant for their preferred class or role. Its just baffling that they don't understand what made Everquest fun for so many players, was learning to play your caster, healer or dps efficiently while minding the aggro metagame and allowing your tank to do his job. The fact that this system (and so many others) became a complete joke in WoW and its subsequent clones is NOT an excuse SOE. It was once a wonderful system and could and should be the foundation for combat and AI in the future.
People need to realize that this lack of structure does not enable more intelligent combat; quite the contrary - it prohibits it.
So you hate being desired by other people in a massively multiplayer game? It sounds like you would be more comfortable playing a dungeon crawler like Diablo 3, Grim Dawn or Paths of Exile where you can start private games with your friends.The problem isn't Trinity design - it's bad trinity design.
Bad trinity design = Tanks can generate so much threat, they can AoE tank an entire dungeon and never worry about healers/DPS pulling aggro, so the DPS have no need to worry about debuffs or CC of any kind, just doing as much AoE DPS as possible to try and out-damage each other and "win" the damage meters, so the healer just has to keep a few HoTs on the tank, maybe spam the occasional heal or AoE heal when the DPS takes incidental damage.
Bad trinity design also = having a mismatch of tanks/healers and DPS so you don't have enough potential healer/tank players because the role choices are limited and the ones you have are no fun to play because they are so easy.
Good trinity design works - and will always work - and (hopefully) will always have a place in AAA MMORPGs.
Exactly right. The whole game was based on D&D. The high fantasy setting, the races, the classes, stats, levels, the role of religion - it was all from D&D. Remember when alignment mattered so much? Totally D&D. The direction I think the franchise should take is back to those roots, not away from them. That's what I'd want from an EQ Next. Back to the lore and game dynamics of classic EverQuest, with an updated engine. No portals - meaningful travel, with SoW and caster ports being of value again. Good crafting, and a functioning auction system. But leave the core system intact. Tank-less, healer-less, no slower, no mezzer - that's not EverQuest.
It's time to put a end to the healing and tanking roles.
A mob shouldnt be dumb enough to get taunted by a big tank as much as it does not make since that a wolf would be able to taunt a sheep.
The healing role shouldnt be as op as they are in other mmo's. It should be hard to support one player and not possible to support everyone in one room like in wow.
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Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
This is exactly what I'm hoping.
I don't expect the trinity I know it's gone I got that through my head but to have no healing at all or every class has a self heal like GW2 just isn't gonna cut it for me and I will be moving on from this one........
I could even deal with the AE heals or cones as someone mentioned as long as there actually useful in GW2 the healing was so underpowered that it was never worth it over just dpsing the mob down IMO....
I'm seeing maybe things along the line of Neverwinter's Astral Seal such as you place something on the mob then everyone that attacks it heals.....
I just can't shake this feeling were gonna have ping pong.........
What is so fun about having a healer class? I understand why people like the support role dont get me wrong but it has tuned down gameplay for so many years now!
Its boring to have a game where the content has to make the healer feel like he is doing a good job else it would not be fun. So the mob delivers a big hit every once in a while but giving the healer enough time to heal players (limits ai and gameplay)
Then games came out where you can actually dodge attacks. Healers felt unneeded in the beginning of ktera for example because it was more fun and faster to go without one and you just tried to keep ur team alive by switching players back and forth. So all the mobs were given one big aoe undodgeable ability that was there for the healers to heal up. Ofcourse these attacks took the healers cooldown grealty in consideration. and now they had succesfully given a reason as to why a healer was needed in certain instances. In my opinion this really limits how you play the game pve wise.
Full foccused healer classes, Aggro systems i cant wait to see it all dissapear. and healer classes can limit you way to much in pvp cases them being needed at all times is not a good thing imo.
The AI could be smarter, certainly would help the gameplay. However, if AI was really really 'smart', how would it behave? It would drop stuns/snares and attack either the thing hitting it the hardest (biggest threat to its life), or the thing healing the things hitting it. If AI was smart enough.
So that means it will be a DPS pong, but the question still remains on how they handle heals. The GW2 vid posted here shows how lame a DPS zerg can be, and the little green ticks of heals for some random attribute is the shinning example of how they tried to force everyone to play one way. Beautiful game, amazing worlds, but I just did not have a class I was interested in playing.
If the AI was truly smart, it would hide with 50 of its buddies in the woods and jump us from behind, or see us coming and pick flight vs fight.... Run away!! Run away!!
You are a powerful Sarcasimancer! You are right though, its that mass market appeal they are looking for.
Little Johnny, he likes his double kills on the Halos more than reading Tolkien. Reading is for nerds....